Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Beer/Archive 7

New Hot Articles subscription service for WikiProjects
Would you guys be interested in beta testing a new Hot Articles service? This service automatically updates a list of the most edited articles for your project from the last several days. An example can be seen at WikiProject Feminism. If you're interested, you can sign up on the subscriptions page. The initial trial is limited to 10 Projects and is for 7 days only, but then will likely be extended indefinitely if the trial is successful. Kaldari (talk) 23:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Probably of limited value to this project as few members are active.  SilkTork  *YES! 11:28, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Tabs template
I found this at another project, thought you may like it:

--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:25, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks  SilkTork  *YES! 10:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Everards Brewery
I've updated Everards brewery, partly because I live near them and partly because I know they have a lot of historical photos. Any help to improve the layout would be appreciated. JRPG (talk) 22:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Good work. Well done.  SilkTork  *YES! 09:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia beer can picture
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Beer. A. di M. (talk) 22:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC) (Using )

Beer in the Caribbean
I've been working on improving the article, and have also suggested the page be split, as the article currently contains both beers of the Caribbean and Central America. Please visit Talk:Beer in the Caribbean to cast your vote.--Chimino (talk) 04:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

copyright images on commons
There are an enormous number of images of beer bottles and beer canson commons that foreground copyrighted packaging in clear violation of commons rules. I will soon be requesting that they be deleted, and I can't imagine any reason why my request would not be approved. I would hate, however, for all these images to be lost. They could easily be uploaded to wikipedia under fair use. Is there anyone here that would like to move them, with that purpose, before they get deleted? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 23:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * They could only be uploaded to Wikipedia under fair use if they are illustrating an article. I'm not clear on copyright laws, but if they are a copyright violation then it is right that they are removed. But why would a photo of a beer can be a copyright violation? There are many such images in existence.  SilkTork  *YES! 00:18, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Speedy copyvio tags at Commons
FYI, despite the discussion above not garner consensus at Commons, TheMightyQuill has put up several beer and wine images on Commons up for speedy deletion. Many have already been deleted. AgneCheese/Wine 20:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Sierra Nevada
I've overhauled the Sierra Nevada Brewing Company page, taking it from an advert-style listing with one citation to an encyclopedic page with over twenty verifiable references. How do I go about appealing for an upgrade from C-class?--Chimino (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Well done on cleaning it up. C class is a decent article and that seems an appropriate level at the moment, though as a Wikipedia editor you can exercise your own judgement and mark it as B class. Classes from stub to B can be set by any Wikipedia editor. It is only the classes higher than B that require an independent assessment. The Assessment page is here - it's a standard assessment - not a special one for the Beer Project. For B class I would expect more detail about the brewery. The SNPA is a world-class beer with a significant importance in defining and popularising American Pale Ale. The brewery is also significant in the whole American craft beer movement. Added to which the quality and clarity of the presentation of the information would normally be better for B class.  SilkTork  *YES! 22:09, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah okay, I do have a couple books which do credit them (along with Anchor & New Albion) for the movement, but I wasn't sure if it would've been considered balanced/critical enough for WP. I'll see what else I can drum up.--Chimino (talk) 02:02, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There should be enough reliable sources out there to support a statement that SN has been significant in the craft beer movement. And if you have a book, that's great. Good luck with the article!  SilkTork  *YES! 16:03, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I checked it against the B-class criteria, it needs some more work on the citation side, a couple of uncited facts and Citation needed tags. I also reformatted the references to use the various citation templates. You'll need to standardize your date formats. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 18:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

AfD for New Republic Brewing Company
Thought you guys should be privy to this:

Articles for deletion/New Republic Brewing Company

--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 04:35, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * That's a fairly clear delete. When the brewery becomes better known we can have an article on it - but it's way too soon at the moment.  SilkTork  *YES! 21:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Prevention of Cholera :Beer as a health food.
OK, tongue in cheek but only partly. In the 1830's Leicester briefly held the World record as the most unhealthy place to live. The problem was polluted water and beer was a much safer drink. Everards Brewery is one of the UK's oldest firms and contributed to the National Brewery Museum Trust in Burton. It has a good collection of photos and I may be able to persuade it to contribute -if this would be welcome. JRPG (talk) 21:36, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, why not? You could even tie in modern day places who drink beer (and other bottled drinks) in lieu of the local, polluted water (i.e. Mexico).--Chimino (talk) 22:29, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do build on the Everards Brewery article. Though I'm not entirely clear what you are proposing to write about. There are a number of sources which remark that part of the reason for beer's early development was that it was safer to drink than water. We don't have such sourced information in History of beer - and it would be good to develop that. I'm not convinced that we would need to repeat general information about the health and social benefits of beer in every brewery article. While Leicester might briefly have been the most unhealthy place in the world (a statement quite stunning, given the health conditions in some places like India), there would have been other places that were also unhealthy. London was notorious as an unhealthy place, and cholera was rife there - indeed, it was during a cholera outbreak in London that it was discovered that the bacteria is carried in drinking water.
 * The Leicester article would be the best place to write about the health conditions there. What source do you have for the claim that Leicester was unhealthy?  SilkTork  *YES! 21:22, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

New article
DC Brau Brewing just created. Welcome any feedback. Working on a photo. &mdash; e. ripley\talk 18:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

New article review needed
Just saw Three Heads Brewing created while doing new pages patrol. It's the sort of thing that could end up AFD'ed easily in its present form. It could use some attention from interested editors. &mdash; e. ripley\talk 23:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Page redo
I have done a new version of this page in the sandbox. I still have some aligning tweaks to do on the various compartments and need to update the icons in the banners.

Any comments? --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 19:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice!--Chimino (talk) 20:00, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Welcome redo
I have done a new version of the welcome template to bring it is synch with the main Beer Project page.

Any comments? --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 16:24, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

A couple of AfDs
There are a couple of beer and pub up for discussion at Articles for Deletion.


 * Articles for deletion/Brewers Fayre
 * Articles for deletion/Taylor Walker Pubs

--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 18:44, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I want to add myself to the participants. Where do I edit?
I'm new to wikiprojects and I wanted to take over a stub on Imperial beer. I tried to add myself to the participant tab but when I edited it I didn't see the list. How do I get on? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpcannonjr (talk • contribs) 21:51, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Add  to your talk page. You do not need to be a "project participant" to edit any beer related articles though. This wiki space just facilitates any organized projects and issues within the realm of beer articles.Beakerboy (talk) 15:19, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * To list yourself as a memeber, you can add your name to the participants list at WikiProject Beer/participants. You can also add the User WikiProject Beer user box to your user page, which will automatically place you in the category of members of the project. Edit with wild abandon! --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 15:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Jpcannonjr has been added to the project, and sent a welcome message.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  15:54, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Page names
A discussion at the Village Pumps suggests that having WikiProjects call their advice pages "guidelines" is confusing at least some editors into thinking that they're the same as the "official" community-wide guidelines like WP:Reliable sources. WP:POLICY generally discourages the use of terms like "guideline" or "policy" in page names even for regular policies anyway. So some of the WikiProjects are renaming their pages to something like "Article advice", "Recommendations", or "Style advice". This is just a friendly suggestion (by no means a requirement) that your group consider doing the same. There are templates listed at WikiProject Council/Guide if you want to tag the pages that way.

While you're at it, if it's been a long time since anyone overhauled those pages, this might be a good time to do that, too. I don't know what the history is for your group, but it's pretty typical for a page to get written and then neglected for a long time. If you happen to find anything that no longer matches up with the community-wide Manual of Style or other general guidelines, then perhaps it would be good to fix it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * WP:POLICY was based on this statement from one user: Wikipedia_talk:Policies_and_guidelines/Archive_12. It appears to be there through inertia rather than active consensus. Can you link to the Village Pump discussion?  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  23:26, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Here, but fair warning: it's a long and meandering discussion.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I have left a comment.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  12:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

WP Beer in the Signpost
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Beer for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 23:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Input required on CAMRA
CAMRA was the original name of the Campaign for Real Ale article, until it was moved in December 2005‎, and a redirect was left behind. In Feb this year a user created a disamb page, offering readers the choice of going to Campaign for Real Ale or Canberra Academy of Music and Related Arts. The redirect was restored under WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and a hatnote placed on Campaign for Real Ale, pointing to Canberra Academy of Music and Related Arts. Another user has objected to the restoration of the redirect. Evidence was then provided of the high traffic to Campaign for Real Ale, and the low traffic to Canberra Academy of Music and Related Arts via CAMRA; evidence has also been provided for the high global visibility and recognition of the CAMRA acronym with the Campaign for Real Ale. Time has been provided for counter arguments and evidence. See discussion on Talk:CAMRA. The page is now somewhat unstable due to the dispute. Opinions and comments would be helpful.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  15:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Pipeworks Brewing
I've created an article for the newest brewery in Chicago, and it's already being attacked as non-notable and nominated for speedy deletion here. Anyone interested (particularly any Chicago-based beer geeks/WPB members)please have a look at the article and weigh in on the deletion nomination. Thanks. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 16:11, 25 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I've left a comment. I think there is room for a section on the seventeen breweries in Chicago in one of the sub-articles, such as Economy of Chicago.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  18:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Photo of bottles
I understand the controversy on copyright but I'm doing a contribution on commons with a (I think) high quality photo of bottle. The gallery is here. I hope that this photo will be useful for each specific page. Alessio Facchin (talk) 21:10, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you Alessio. For anyone who is unfamiliar with Commons, it is where we store images that may be used in articles. The images for beer related articles are kept here, and we have well over a thousand images of different beer brands. Some of them are categorised unhelpfully simply as "Beer bottles", though they are largely in alphabetical order. A bit more helpful is "Beers by country", and the country with the most images is Belgium with 390.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  23:32, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok if you haven't seen, all photo are well categorized. The link that I made it's only for summarize the last photo uploaded. Stay tuned update came soon. Alessio Facchin (talk) 18:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Microbrew userbox
For those of you who would like, I had created a Craft Beer fan userbox.

User:RightCowLeftCoast/Userboxes/Craft beer

Enjoy! --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. The "craft beer" terminology has received a lot of discussion over the past 12 months in the UK. It has created a division between those who see it as:


 * purely a marketing term that does not include any definition of quality, but enables some brewers to pass off "convenience beer" (easily and safely brewed beer in closed fermentors with a controlled yeast, which is then filtered and force carbonated for the convenience of the brewer, distributor and outlet) as "craft" with the associations carried by the word "craft" as something "crafted" and of value in itself


 * and those who see it as:


 * a statement of intent against big brewers who by definition of being big somehow make inferior quality beer.


 * You can put me in the camp of those who feel that the term is a marketing one and is not in any way suggestive of quality, character or interest. It is like saying "French wine" as though that in itself meant quality, though wine made in France is as varied as wine made in America or Australia or South Africa. Indeed, since the Judgment of Paris we know that on a blind tasting the best quality American wines can be more appreciated than the best quality French wines.


 * I am not in favour of any marketing approach which is designed to deceive or mislead the consumer. In the UK some of our big brewers are starting to use the term "crafted" because of its positive associations. It is as meaningless as the terms "quality" and "premium" which are frequently used in beer marketing.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  10:42, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * In the US, the term 'craft beer' has basically become synonymous with (or in some circles has replaced) the term microbrew. It's all in the rhetoric I suppose, and the UK and the US are two nations separated by a common language after all. For the record, I don't like the term 'craft brewed' either, but I know what is meant by it on this side of the pond. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 17:10, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The terms "craft beer" and "microbrew" have both been defined in the USA by what is now the Brewers Association. The BA originally used "microbrewery", but under pressure from some of their larger members adopted "craft brewery" so that the larger breweries could also be included. The definitions of "craft brewer" are designed to include all the members of the BA, and exclude the big nationals/internationals. I'm being a bit cynical here, but when a trade organisation shifts its criteria to accommodate new members rather than requiring members to shift their brewing methods to fit their quality criteria, then I see little value in that organisation from a consumer point of view, as it is clearly promoting the interests of its members rather than the consumer. I think that BA does good things, but an indicator of quality it is not.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  11:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

The whole thing is pretty silly whatever the case... especially since 20 years ago, neither 'microwbrew' nor 'craft beer' were terms anyone really used (because such things weren't widely available). But whatever the case, I think that the userbox that RightCow created was simply intended to say "hey, I prefer (insert: whatever-you-wanna-call-small-independent-brewry-made-beer) over big corporate pale lager-mills (e.g. AB, Miller and Coors)." Which is exactly how I interpreted it. If that doesn't translate in the UK (or elsewhere), then there's nothing stopping anyone who lives there and has an interest in doing so from making a UB that says whatever. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 13:26, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I was just pointing out that the term has created something of a shit storm over here. Big time! Angry words from the CAMRA chairman. Thousands of words across the beer blogsphere. Big divisions among the beer community not seen before. Unnecessary internecine battles and feelings of ill-will among what used to be a happy go lucky unified crowd. What is behind the unrest is that the word is seen as a way of getting keg beer to become acceptable. The "young crowd" now see force-carbonated keg beer as trendy and something in opposition to the old farts of CAMRA who prefer cask beer. It is not just a silly old argument it is starting to become rather more significant than that. Put something like craft v cask in your search engine and you'll start to get a flavour of it!  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  13:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Boddingtons
Just a heads-up that this is now at FAC, at Featured article candidates/Boddingtons/archive1. I don't know yet if there are other problems, but the prose could use some help if anyone wants to lend a hand. While I'm here, your wikiproject has done great work for years, so I'm a little surprised that there's only one FA tagged by your wikiproject ... and it's about a TV commercial! Let me know if I can help. - Dank (push to talk) 03:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info; it would be nice to see more beer articles in the FA/GA categories. Unfortunately, I don't think I can be much help; beyond general copy-editing and prose, the nuances of the FAC process befuddle me. Good luck...I hope it makes it through.--Chimino (talk) 07:47, 8 June 2012 (UTC)