Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catalan-speaking countries/Archive 2

Catalan Grammar Article Improvement
Hello, I am aiming to expand somewhat the Catalan grammar article in the Wiki to provide more information for those who would like to learn basic Catalan. I encourage you to go there and check the talk page to see if you think anything should be added. I'll consider them and we can work together further exposing the language to the users of the English-language Wiki! ;) Pieuvre (talk) 23:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Latin Europe
Hello ! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 20:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Need help on Catalan info in Gyromitra esculenta
This text has been in the article on Gyromitra esculenta:


 * In some countries such as Spain, especially in the eastern Pyrenees, they are traditionally considered a delicacy, and many people report consuming them for many years with no ill effects. Despite this, all false morels are listed as hazardous in official mushroom lists published by the Catalan Government in Spain.

It would be great to get some sourcing, clarification or correction. Any help on the matter much appreciated. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:24, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Template
I suggest not using any more the template. It acts like a flag attracting “wikiproject Spain” even if it makes no sense (see by example Talk:Andorra) and start editions war, changes tending to assimilate inside Spain and Spanish culture etc. I think it is better to use the project to share tools, styles, discuss general issues… But never list the stuff you are working on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.57.232.190 (talk) 10:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Template:Catalan language
''Cross-posting to Village pump (assistance), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spain, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catalan-speaking Countries

Template:Catalan language has been tagged for speedy deletion, using a template that (as I understand it) is supposed to indicate what should be used instead; no template is indicated to be used instead. I had some back and forth with User:MZMcBride, who tagged it, but I'm afraid that all that revealed is that he and I aren't seeing eye-to-eye.

I haven't been working in Catalan language and culture lately, but this template was once quite heavily used. We created it because there were articles where Catalan-speaking world was arguably too extensive. Not to put too fine a point on it, Spanish nationalists objected (reasonably, I think) to articles about topics like phonology linking (via that template) to articles about Catalan government agencies, Christmas traditions, etc.. I suspect that what has happened over time someone (probably a Catalan nationalist) has put Catalan-speaking world back on the contentious articles, and that the template that is now proposed for deletion might be more appropriate on those articles.

But, since he doesn't even say what template he considers to be an acceptable substitute, I feel like I'm wrestling with a fog. Perhaps someone else can do a better job of sorting this out. - Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Pedrolo's Mecanoscrit - second only to the Bible?
Can anyone please verify that Manuel de Pedrolo's "Mecanoscrit del segon origen" is "the most broadly disseminated book in Catalan, second only to the Bible"? Gràcies. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 10:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Catalan Speaking Traditions
Hi there, I would just like to comment on something that I don't really find spot on in this encylopedia. How come there is a Catalan Speaking countries box that includes traditions and other cultural references from different regions in Spain. I do not find this very correct, as nobody would think of having an English-Speaking Traditions, or Spanish-Speaking Traditions. Falles, Paella or Moros i Cristianos do not have anything to do with Catalan. What I mean is, if you are from Canada and stumble upon Falles you put all these traditions into the same group, when they are very very different. I can't see a single reference or Box in Highland games where it groups them up with other English traditions. This is because they don't have anything to do with England and putting them into the same Box, as the one in Falles and Moros i Cristians, becomes confusing.

I well know that this is a delicate subject and that there are fervent defenders on both sides. What I want to point out is that we make things simple in Wikipedia. This is a clear example of confusion. If someone wants to know about the Catalan Speaking World, there should be an article for it, or a category down below at the end of the Falles article (if you look there's Valencian Culture and Fire). However, in these articles, half the page is including this in the "Catalan-Speaking World" (which has enough controversy as it is). I do not see this happening with Hindu-Speaking World or even Basque-Speaking World.

Conclusion=Superflous and Confusing --Arthurbrown (talk) 15:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * When I mean other English traditions, I meant other English-Speaking World traditions. --Arthurbrown (talk) 15:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear Arthur Brown, thank you very much for your comments and contributions to our wikiproject. The template you are bringing into discussion was created well before I joint the project but nevertheless I'll try to address your concerns. As you can see in the article of the wikiproject, its aim is to improve the coverage of Wikipedia about "everything related to the Catalan-speaking Countries: Catalan-speakers, the Catalan Countries, the Catalan language, the History and Culture of each country." That includes the traditions in these territories. As you may know, it is not by chance that they share Catalan as a common language. It is because many people living there have a common descent: the medieval Catalan speakers. That entails, to some extent, to speak about a common culture as well, specially when it comes to traditions with ancient origins. In fact, there a number of sources which have studied the relationships between traditions in the Catalan-speaking Countries. Therefore, having all of them together under the scope of a single wikiproject and the usage of this kind of templates should not be confusing but a way to put them in context. Needless to say, we'll appreciate any suggestion from you to improve those articles and avoid any possible confusion therein. --Carles Noguera (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks for your answer. As I already said I'm not saying that it's not correct as in false, but not very useful. Your explanation is very true...Traditions in Valencia have been largely under the influence of Catalonia, but also by Arabic and Castilian. Les Falles do not descend from Catalan ancient traditions at all, but started once Valencia was already in existence. The box is not information that any other articles in any other language give. What I propose is that we create a Category for this, and include it at the end of the articles, like Valencian Traditions in the Falles article. In this category we could see the Catalan-Speaking World(CSW) articles, as I seem to believe that Valencian Traditions are much more closely related to Les Falles than The Catalan Speaking World. By this I mean, that it would be much more useful and directly related, a Box of The Valencian Community(with goverment,tradition,provinces...) and a category link for CSW below, than a Box of CSW and a Category of Traditions.--Arthurbrown (talk) 17:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC) below

I have looked again at the info box and I still see absolutely nothing wrong with it. It provides useful information, and does not over-weight Catalonia as opposed to other places that speak Catalan. I believe it is of significant value and is used correctly, in the right context. --Bcnviajero (talk) 11:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And why is it important to relate Les Falles to Castellers? I still don't know why this information is relevant. Why isn't this done in other languages. I find Valencian Traditions much more relevant (in this article) than Catalan-Spoken ones. Does this mean we can make a Box with Spanish Regional Traditions and include Castellers? After all, Catalonia is still a region of Spain. What I mean by this, is that even though it's correct, there are other categories before Catalan Speaking World. These articles included there, are in most cases, just related by langauge. This relation is insufficient. Dutch and Flemish traditions are not included into the same language pile, the same with Serb/Croat or French/Canadian French.--Arthurbrown (talk) 12:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'll try to make my point clearer this time to avoid any possible misunderstanding. In my previous message I did not imply that traditions in Catalonia-proper gave rise to all traditions in the Catalan-speaking territories. I just argued that as long as they are descendants of the same ethnic group, people in those countries have shared some common cultural traits. Several relationships between their traditions have been traced and studied in the literature. That includes, in particular, Falles. See, for instance, this source: Joan Amades, Costumari català, 1950, Salvat Editores, Barcelona, vol 1, pages 919 - 936. Hence, the existence of the info box (and, ultimately, of the wikiproject) do not rely only on Catalan as a common language of some territories, but also on a strong historical and cultural relation between them. On the other hand, when you suggest that the box is not relevant because it lacks an analogue in Wikipedia for the linguistical domain of other languages, I would reply that maybe such a resource could be useful in other cases fulfilling analogous conditions (common language, common cultural traits, strong historical and ethnical links). --Carles Noguera (talk) 13:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * there are many common cultural traits,strong historical and ethincal links between Catalonians and the Castilians. If we push hard enough, we can include Arabs and Catalonians and French. I don't want to sound rude, but there are as many writers who will state that Les Falles is just Valencian, or that they are Spanish. Naming a book doesn't make your point stronger. The truth is still that a box of ONLY Valencian Traditions,Culture,Regions...etc would be more relevant in an article about a Valencian tradition, than a box which englobes many traditions from other regions. It keeps things simple and clear, as from the box it is clearly seen that Valencia is under Paisos Catalans, even though that's not the official status it has. How can that, together with Catalan traditions and regions, be more relevant than information regarding Valencia. You both ignore my sugestion of creating a Category and including that below next to Valencian Traditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurbrown (talk • contribs) 15:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not ignoring your suggestion (which is not bad), I am just trying to argue that I find the present solution better. If you provide some of your sources, we maybe could assess what's the best context we can provide for those articles. In the meantime, I will try to improve to infobox, which I have realized is too Catalonia-centered. --Carles Noguera (talk) 06:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I still think this should be a Category...as it has all the ingredients to be such a thing. --Arthurbrown (talk) 12:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup
Currently, 530 articles are assigned to this project, of which 106, or 20.0%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 2008-07-14.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place the following template on your project page:



If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I find it useful and interesting. Do we add it?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 08:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I support the suggestion, it can be useful. --Carles Noguera (talk) 05:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Countries?
That is a literal translation... How many countries do speak Catalan? One...--Againme (talk) 16:07, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Countries does not mean Nation, even though most of the times the terms is used as such. But there are countries that are not sovereign territories. UK is a good example. So you can use the term 'Catalan countries' as they are not referring to any Sovereign nations. Mnalle


 * I know, but even then there's only one Catalonia! What other country speaks Catalan? --Againme (talk) 20:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You have Andorra for example (the only "real" country that has Catalan as an official language) And Also Pais Valencia, and the Balearics. Thats what they mean about the "Catalan Countries" Mnalle —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnalle (talk • contribs) 22:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok then. Thanks.--Againme (talk) 17:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Auca
I created the article Auca (cartoon) in English and in Hebrew. It is based on grec.cat and rodolins.cat. Can anyone please check it? My Catalan is not perfect and i may have made silly mistakes.

Maybe even calling it a "cartoon" is not a good idea. Be bold and correct it!

Thanks in advance. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've taken a look and it looks fine to me. Good job! --Carles Noguera (talk) 10:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Cite GREC
You may find this useful: Cite GREC.

I used it on Pompeu Fabra. Using this occasion - maybe someone can finally clarify why was Fabra arrested in 1934? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Surveys at Talk:Valencian Community
Hi! I've started several surveys regarding to naming conventions about the Catalan language, the Spanish language, and to the country of Valencia. It may help to end eternal wars with some users that most of us know who they are. --Joanot Martorell &#9993; 16:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)