Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 2023

Talk:Divine Worship: The Missal has an RFC
Talk:Divine Worship: The Missal has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the |discussion page. Thank you. Elizium23 (talk) 09:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Transubstantiation § Relation to Eucharistic Miracles
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Transubstantiation § Relation to Eucharistic Miracles. Sundayclose (talk) 23:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Bishop appointments and WP:CRYSTAL
Hi there, I believe this RFC on Infobox officeholder is quite applicable to the practice I've been advocating: wait until a bishop is installed before placing his name in the infobox. Hopefully, applicable to other fields such as "diocese" and succession boxes and categories. Elizium23 (talk) 04:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Gaudi at GAR
Antoni Gaudí has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. — PerfectSoundWhatever  (t; c) 18:12, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

His Excellency
Hi editors, I am curious about the honorific styles such as "His Excellency" (and equivalents: "His Eminence, His Holiness".) I was under the impression that these are spoken styles only. I was given this impression by the classifications in the ubiquitous Infobox bishopstyles. Is this correct? It seems that our article Excellency says it is also a written style. Does this apply to the ecclesiastical usage as well? Does anyone have definitive sources which explain this? Elizium23 (talk) 00:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * See Noonan, The Church Visible. There's a chapter specifically on forms of address. "Your Excellency" can be used in a letter and "His Excellency" for place cards and invitations. Gimmetrow 01:04, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * , no, they are not solely spoken styles. The salutation in written correspondence uses same form ("Your Eminence," etc.).  However, ecclesial forms of address vary from country to country, even in the English-speaking world.  The forms of ecclesial address used in England, Canada, and Australia for bishops and archbishops differ from those used in the United States.  Also, the forms used in a third party reference ("His Excellency" for a bishop or archbishop in the United States) differ from the form used in the address on an envelope ("Most Reverend" for a bishop or archbishop in the United States).  Norm1979 (talk) 00:49, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I said. (I'm also aware of the differences between US and UK customs, though Elizium didn't ask about that.) Gimmetrow 03:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Creation of Holy Family Shrine
I created an article for a shrine local to me. I'm not Catholic, and know very little about religion in general. I'd appreciate it if someone form here could have a look at it. –DMartin 07:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Excellent start! I have made some very trivial alterations. I may also perform a more substantial expansion next week, but will ping you on your talk page before doing so. If you ever have questions regarding editing a Catholic topic, here and the WP Christianity noticeboard have a ton of very active watchers eager to provide any insight you may desire. ~ Pbritti (talk) 07:53, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Historical List of the Catholic bishops of Canada / other Anglosphere countries
In looking at the Historical list of the Catholic bishops of the United States, I realized that such a resource, as far as I know, does not exist for other countries in English-speaking "mission territory" with a clearly-defined beginning such as Canada or Australia or New Zealand.

Does anyone know whether those episcopal conferences have a printed equivalent of Ordinations of U.S. Catholic Bishops, 1790–1989 which forms the basis of the American list? I'd use Catholic-Hierarchy but based on prior use of the site, I would have to independently verify each entry, which seems like... a lot

Maximilian775 (talk) 04:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

A Second pair of eyes please.
Excommunication in the Catholic Church is a cut and paste of the CE article from 1913. It is not only over 100 yrs outdated, but in light of the 1983 code and subsequent amendments, rather obsolete. It was so tagged back in April 2016. Have attempted to weed out some of the more arcane verbiage and condense some of the explanation. However, another editor seemingly disapproves any edits they themselves have not initiated - even the most uncontroversial. Anyone else is welcome to try. Manannan67 (talk) 07:13, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Use of parentheses versus "natural language" in differentiating eparchies and dioceses by denomination
A discussion here may interest the Project. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:36, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Bishop infoboxes
Shall we stick with using "diocese = xxx" for infoboxes of bishop biographies, or should we move that data point to "see = xxx" instead? @Rogermx disagrees with my stance. Elizium23 (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I would say that it is up to the editor to decide whether to use "see" or "diocese" unless somebody can PROVE to me that one is right and the other is wrong. Rogermx (talk) 03:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Preference is "see" as it covers all manner of ecclesial jurisdictions, ranging from episcopal abbeys to vicariates to ordinariates to archeparchies. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Has anyone drafted guidance on how best to use Infobox Christian leader parameters to accommodate Catholic leaders? Something like that would be helpful in achieving some consistency across Catholic leaders? &mdash; Archer1234 (talk) 05:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Pbritti I haven't heard that reasoning before, and it doesn't make sense. Dioceses are dioceses and they're unlikely to change. Why use a more general parameter when there is one that is custom-made for dioceses? Do you have documentation of the discussion which led to that consensus? Elizium23 (talk) 05:10, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Unless you can offer documentation of a prior discussion, this discussion will be the consensus. If you have said documentation, why even ask the question in the first place, much less without linking it here? ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:22, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , the key point is that a bishop's jurisdiction is not necessarily a diocese. Presently in the United States, for example, Bishop Stephen Lopes is the bishop ordinary of the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, which is a particular church that's canonically equivalent to a diocese but nevertheless is NOT a diocese.  And many regions of the world have other types of particular churches -- apostolic vicariates and apostolic prefectures, for example -- that, though canonically equivalent to dioceses and often governed by bishops, nevertheless are NOT dioceses. Unsigned comment left by  05:04, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Elizium23 has been indefinitely blocked for over a month now so pinging won't result in a response (though they may still edit their talk page). Also, yes, I largely agree with your point. ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:10, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Muslim campaign at Córdoba Cathedral
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Muslim campaign at Córdoba Cathedral that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject.  ❯❯❯  Raydann  (Talk)   21:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Heresy in the Catholic Church
Open invitation for anyone to work on this article; it needs a LOT of work. Manannan67 (talk) 20:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Template:Infallible declarations nominated for deletion
The discussion is at Templates for discussion/Log/2023 March 11. Feel free to come and give your opinion. Veverve (talk) 23:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Survey at Catholic Church in Romania
There is a survey at Talk:Catholic_Church_in_Romania that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — Biruitorul Talk 08:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments
Quality assessments are used by Wikipedia editors to rate the quality of articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a class parameter to WikiProject banner shell, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to WikiProject banner shell, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass WPBannerMeta a new custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:58, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Adding a parameter for "deacons" to Infobox diocese
There is a discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_diocese regarding whether to add a deacons parameter to infobox diocese. Interested editors are invited and encouraged to share their views in that discussion. &mdash; Archer1234  (t·c) 17:27, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Eastern Catholic jurisdiction titles?
I'm trying to put in Short Descriptions on all the Catholic diocese/eparchies etc., but am getting tripped up with all the different Eastern Catholic terms. I think I understand (arch)eparchy, but I'm not finding anything clear enough regarding exarchates in Eastern Catholic Church or Exarch.

Eparchies seem similar to western dioceses, and I think exarchates are missionary jurisdictions, but I'm struggling with all the different types of exarchates (Apostolic, Patriarchal, Archiepiscopal.)

Could someone either explain them to me or provide me with a resource that clearly explains them?

Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks! Referencer12 (talk) 02:27, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would love to help. Would you mind giving an example of an article you're struggling with and giving an example of the short description you think is best? I'll correct it if there’s an issue! ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Pbritti: Thanks. Examples are: Maronite Catholic Patriarchal Exarchate of Jerusalem and Palestine & Maronite Catholic Apostolic Exarchate of Colombia. What makes Jerusalem & Palestine Patriarchal while Colombia Apostolic? Is it that Jerusalem & Palestine is immediately subject to the Patriarchate (therefore Patriarchal) while Colombia is subject to the Holy See (therefore Apostolic, just like most Apostolic Prelatures?) Referencer12 (talk) 04:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @PbrittiI forgot to put my SD's for the 2! Both are "Eastern Catholic missionary jurisdiction in Palestine/Colombia." Referencer12 (talk) 05:02, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, one more Ukrainian Catholic Archiepiscopal Exarchate of Donetsk is an Archiepiscopal exarchate because it's immediately subject to the Ukrainian Catholic Archeparchy of Kyiv.
 * So, I think an exarchate is an Eastern Catholic missionary jurisdiction. All the qualifiers before that say is
 * What Church the exarchate belongs to (Maronite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, etc) &
 * If it is immediately subject to Rome (Apostolic), a patriarchate (Patriarchal), or an archeparchy (Archiepiscopal).
 * Correct?
 * ~ Referencer12 (talk) 05:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Your presumption is correct! However, if reliable sourcing (or the see itself) says something that runs contrary, go with the sourcing. Let me know if you need further aid! ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:37, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Referencer12, it's really pretty simple. * A jurisdiction that's apostolic is directly under the apostolic see (that is, the Roman pontiff). * A jurisdiction that's patriarchal or archepiscopal is under the patriarch or major archbishop, respectively, who is the head of its sui juris ritual church. The former usually applies to jurisdictions that are outside the territory of the respective sui juris ritual church while the latter usually applies to jurisdictions that are within the territory of the respective sui juris ritual church, though this might not be strictly true in all cases. Norm1979 (talk) 16:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Improving the Article on "Eucharist in the Catholic Church"
I would like to slowly improve the article on Eucharist in the Catholic Church. As I am rather new to Wikipedia, I would appreciate help from other editors to make sure I am doing it properly.

For starters, I edited the introductory portion by trimming off the lengthy quotations from primary sources and re-drafting it so that it reads more like an encyclopedia entry. I also added citations from secondary sources.

Other changes I plan to make over a period of time are the following:


 * 1) History -- I think there needs to be separate sections on the history of the theology of the Eucharist, and the history of how the Mass developed into the form it is now.
 * 2) The subsections on the scriptural bases of Catholic beliefs in the Eucharist repeat themselves, so I plan to trim that portion too.  I wonder if it would be a good idea to separate them from the "history" subsection.

Thoughts? LaivineOrodrim (talk) 15:09, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Excellent first pass, . I appreciate your desire for non-primary sources. If you want any help, let me know. In the meantime, I think it's actually ok to consider just focussing on the history of theology rather than addressing the ritual aspects. We have so many liturgical articles and the subject can be far better covered in those. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:16, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for the encouragement, @Pbritti. I will definitely ask your help if I need it as I continue editing the article. LaivineOrodrim (talk) 16:23, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Pbritti as you can see, I transferred the subsection on other NT appearances of the Holy Eucharist to the subsection on the history of Catholic Eucharistic theology. I am thinking of deleting the entire remaining subsection on "New Testament Foundations" since it merely repeats what has been said in the subsection on the history of Catholic Eucharistic theology, as well as transferring the subsection on "Old Testament Foundations" to that subsection. Thoughts?
 * I also added a non-primary source for the statements you tagged as "non-primarry source citation needed". I do not know how to remove the tag. LaivineOrodrim (talk) 13:20, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Pbritti sorry, I have another question: I added some material to the subsection on "Old Testament References to the Holy Eucharist".  I got the material from a secondary source that just lists the passages and the  biblical citations without further commentary.  I do not know if I was able to strike the right balance between plagiarism, on the one hand, and original research, on the other, in the way I included the material.
 * For reference, I got the material from this source (scroll down, to the subheading "The Teaching of the Sacred Scriptures"). This is an HTML version of the book, of which several electronic are available at the author's website.  What I cited in the Wiki article was the ePub version of book with an ISBN number and not this HTML version.  LaivineOrodrim (talk) 14:58, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * If you don't mind, I'll reply to this on the article talk page. I'll gladly take a look now! ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I will check out your reply at the article talk page. LaivineOrodrim (talk) 18:30, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Nouvelle théologie vs. Ressourcement theology
I've been very attracted to Ressourcement theology in the past few years, but not because I sought it out. It just seems that every time I read or hear something I like it turns out to be ressourcement. For example Robert Barron describes himself as largely in accord with this theological school, and many scholars maintain that Joseph Ratzinger was largely a ressourcement theologian. So imagine my surprise when I found that a search in WP for ressourcement gets redirected to Nouvelle théologie. While the intro to this article is NPOV and well written, it makes note that the term 'Nouvelle théologie' is meant to be a denigration of 'ressourcement theology,' and the balance of the article after the intro is heavily in favor of this negative view and is therefore not NPOV.

Fixing the article to be NPOV is pointless while it carries this title. I propose the article name be changed to 'Ressourcement theology' and that 'Nouvelle théologie' be the redirect. After that is done material can be added to restore a NPOV.

PS, two others besides myself have raised the issue of bias on Talk:Nouvelle théologie.

Thanks! Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 00:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose changing the name, because Nouvelle theologie and ressourcement refer to different things.
 * Nouvelle theologie is a specific, historical movement which began around the 1930s and after Vatican II split into rival theological "schools" (named after the journals Concilium and Communio). The fact that the name was originally used pejoratively is not an issue, as it is the commonly used name (WP:NPOVNAME), and it isn't really understood as pejorative anymore. For an detailed overview of its history, see Kirwan, An Avant-garde Theological Generation: The Nouvelle Théologie and the French Crisis of Modernity (Oxford University Press, 2018).
 * Ressourcement, on the other hand, is a theological method, which was one of the defining elements of the Nouvelle theologie. But its use is not isolated to the historic nouveaux théologiens, and is still widely used by theologians associated with the successor Communio school (as is the case with Barron, as you mentioned). Ratzinger as a founder of the Communio school was both part of it, and earlier the Nouvelle theologie. Furthermore, the term as even been adopted by some contemporary Thomists (Ressourcement Thomism) who have a much more tenuous connection with the historical Nouvelle theologie. These are all distinct movements, deserving of their own treatment, which should not be lumped into a article primarily about Nouvelle theologie.
 * Ressourcement is a significant topic in itself, and as such probably deserves its own page (without a redirect), which can take into account contemporary users of the method. (For instance in the way Aggiornamento, another one of these important terms surrounding Vatican II, has its own page.)
 * As a related note, I've been meaning for sometime now to create a new page for Communio (school of thought) as a separate page from the current Communio which is about the journal itself. Haven't had the time to, but if someone wants to make a try at it, I think having that page would provide a good place to include discussions of post-VII Balthasar, Lubac, Ratzinger, etc. and more contemporary folks like Barron, Fessio, Schindler, Chapp, etc. (Rowland, Catholic Theology (T&T Clark, 2017), Chapter 3 would be a good overview source to help get started.) Magnus Aurelius Cassiodorus Senator (talk) 03:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, so perhaps this is what we should do:
 * 1) delete the Ressourcement redirect, or change it to redirect to 'Ressourcement theology'
 * 2) create a Ressourcement or 'Ressourcement theology' (which is better?) stub article using your definition


 * Will we need to define the difference between Ressourcement and Nouvelle theologie in the Nouvelle theologie article and add a link to Ressourcement there?
 * Thoughts? Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 12:18, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Ressourcement is a better name for a page than "Ressourcement theology."
 * As there is obviously quite a bit of potential overlap between content in the two pages, I would envision Nouvelle theologie (eventually) focusing more on a historic outline of the movement, with a brief summary of its theological claims and a Main article: Ressourcement link. It's start date is a little hazy, historical context probably requires starting with the modernist crisis, but the 1930s was when it, itself, came to be a real phenomenon. Hard stop date for NT is the late 1960s.
 * That could leave the Ressourcement page to cover, in more a more topical way, specific elements of it: Patristic exegesis of scriptures, antecedents in the liturgical movement & biblical movement, Aeterni Patris and Thomistic Ressourcement, contemporary usage and ecumenical adoption (as Ressourcement as an idea is not just isolated to Catholic Christianity anymore).
 * I've just rewritten the intro to the Nouvelle theologie to help reflect the nuance in the sources a little better and to make a start at "define[ing] the difference between Ressourcement and Nouvelle theologie." Once the stub has been created (if there aren't any objections) and the redirect deleted, I can help populate the stub with a few paragraphs, sources, etc. Adding both of these to my to do list of pages to improve. Magnus Aurelius Cassiodorus Senator (talk) 05:10, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Just to cite an analogy, my experience was that of someone searching for 'Papal infallibility' and being redirected to 'Ultramontanism'. It is simply not appropriate. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 00:17, 7 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I oppose this move. Whenever I read about this trend, it is always as Nouvelle théologie, WP:COMMONNAME. Veverve (talk) 00:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Judging by what I have read of recent publications, ressourcement is the common name. It's not 1965 any longer.
 * Even to characterize this school as a 'trend' is a denigration. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 01:36, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * In an attempt to quantify usage of the two terms, I ran searches on Catholic World Report for 'ressourcement' and 'Nouvelle théologie'. The 'ressourcement' search obtained 49 articles, the 'Nouvelle théologie' search obtained 12 article.
 * Of course, these were all 21st century usages of the terms. But since CWR is not fringe, it stands to reason that a metric of 400% greater usage of 'ressourcement' over 'Nouvelle théologie' should weigh heavily in favor of 'ressourcement' as the better fit to WP:COMMONNAME than 'Nouvelle théologie'. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 02:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Or do we just need a new article on Ressourcement theology? Johnbod (talk) 04:07, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If they are different things, then yes, we do. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 12:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

OK, I have edited Ressourcement and converted it from a redirect to a stub article. Please take a look. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 17:42, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems that an administrator reverted the change on the grounds that "Better suited to being a redirect until the page could be expanded and sourced". I went to the admin's talk page and appealed the reversion. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 18:19, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Tfdavisatsnetnet: To be clear, I am not an administrator. I am a regular editor just like you. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Tfdavisatsnetnet, the term "ressourcement" means going back to the source -- often with the objective of getting back to the original understanding (for example, theotokos vs. mater dei) to understand where differences in meaning or practice have crept into our theological understanding and liturgical practice. Among other things, this was the underpinnings of the liturgical reform of the Roman Rite that actually started with the restoration of the paschal triduum back in the 1950's and came to completion, or at least an initial completion, after the Second Vatican Council -- liturgical scholars had been at work on this decades earlier.  Norm1979 (talk) 14:15, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Merger: Catholic Church and Politics + Catholic Church and the state
Hi all! I think that potentially Relations between the Catholic Church and the state should be merged into Catholic Church and politics as realistically they cover a lot of the same topics, and also a lot of the "Relations" article is unsourced. However, I'm not to sure how to go about this, or if others agree.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated. Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I would disagree, as I think the former is more related to diplomacy and the rights and position of the Church w/in various states, while the latter is about encouraging lay members to participate in forming public policy, although there is likely some overlap that might be sorted out. Manannan67 (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with Manannan67, they seem distinct enough topics and given the ocean of Church history there is more than enough subject matter for both articles, even if neither is particularly amazing at the moment. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 00:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with both @Manannan67 and @Horse Eye's Back that both are separate topics, but I also think both can be subtopics in an article -- still to be created -- on what is known as "Public Ecclesiastical Law". LaivineOrodrim (talk) 00:56, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Archdiocese of Utrecht (695–1580)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Archdiocese of Utrecht (695–1580) that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 05:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Extra Eyes Requested on Maria Valtorta
Experienced editors are kindly asked to keep an eye on Maria Valtorta where there has been a slow burning dispute over sources and possible POV editing regarding the subject who claimed personal conversations with, and dictations from, Jesus Christ. I am not sufficiently familiar with the topic or the sources to express an opinion, but as the subject was a professed Catholic and lay tertiary, the article is likely a matter of interest to this wiki-project. Thanks... -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:01, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Expect me to examine the discussion tomorrow. The matter has been on my radar for a while. I appreciate you raising the matter here and look forward to your input. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:45, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

"ecumenism of blood"
The concept of "ecumenism of blood" – an expression that, as far as I can tell, was created by pope Francis – has been mentioned today in this AP article due to Francis announcing that 21 Christians killed (20 being Coptic Orthodox) would later joing the Roman Martyrology. I have known this expression for a while, but to me this was just a vague word used by the Pope; now, with the addition of martyrs who are not Catholics (nor that the Holy See claims they were Catholics), it appears to be a very real concept

The concept has been mentioned by Francis over the years: 2013, 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019.

It was also the topic of a 2019 conference, whose text is hosted on the website of the Dicastery for Promoting Christian Unity. Cardinal Marc Ouellet also mentioned this concept.

Paulist Press has published a book on the topic in 2018, and in 2022 a journal article was published about the topic.

So, do you think this concept is notable enough to warrant a WP article? If yes, what definition should it have? Veverve (talk) 17:13, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd wait. I've read the Knapman book on subject and think there's a lot we can cover, but it all ties back to Pope Francis's ecumenical work. I think it belongs as major component of broader article on Francis and his work with on Christian unity. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)


 * u|Pbritti, a rather pained comment by Pope Francis in the days after the martyrdom of about 20 Coptic Christians in Libya is very telling. The pope said that these people were not murdered because they were Copts, but rather because they were Christian, with the obvious implication that all Christians are in this together and that the experience of martyrdom in the modern age is another bond that all Christian denominations share.  It's certainly a very significant public acknowledgement of a reality that has existed, but gone largely unacknowledged, for centuries, so it's a very significant bridge in the ecumenical journey that began in earnest at the Second Vatican Council.


 * The significance of the Pope's decision to add the Coptic martyrs of Libya to the Roman martyrology should not be underestimated. The acknowledgement of holiness and virtue in members of other denominations, and recognition of each others' canonized saints, clearly is a necessary step in the reunification of separated ecclesial bodies.  This may be the first step on a trek of thousands of miles, but a trek of thousands of miles begins with that first step.  So, clearly, the journey has now begin, at least between the Coptic Church and the Catholic Church.


 * That said, it's not clear whether this subject is better addressed in a separate article or whether it's better addressed as a section within a larger article on Christian ecumenism. The fact that it is a major development within the larger context of Christian ecumenism strongly suggests that the latter may be the better approach.  The title of "Ecumenism of Blood" could be a redirect to the section of the larger article on Christian ecumenism rather than a separate article.  Norm1979 (talk) 14:42, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you try that again as a wikipedia editor instead of a true believer? This isn't the place for your personal theology or hopes for the church. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 14:52, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * u|Horse Eye&#39;s Back, my earlier response was an attempt to frame the context of the pope's action, with the hope that it might provide some insight into the best way to treat the issue by a person with a graduate degree in theology. If you don't agree with what I said, I welcome discussion of alternative courses of action and the merit thereof -- that is is the very purpose of this page.  But you allegation of posting "personal theology" is not exactly constructive, and it does nothing whatsoever to shed light on the subject at hand.  Norm1979 (talk) 01:50, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * your method of pinging is nonstandard. Also, your initial comment is similarly unhelpful. We base notability on reliable sources. The significance of this event is uncertain (though at the very minimum worthy of mention). Even less understood in sourcing is Francis's theological propositions in "ecumenism of blood". Unfortunately, we may only have enough sources for an article until some years from now. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:22, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * , a Google search on the term "ecumenism of blood" turns up several pages of articles. etc., on this subject so references are not lacking. Theological journals probably also have articles on this subject, if you have access to a decent theological library.  Norm1979 (talk) 12:41, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If you know of particular sources that would make for a good article please consider naming/linking them. Only saying they exist without specification or that they probably exist doesn't help establish the notability we need for an article. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:24, 19 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment: maybe a section at Ecumenism and interreligious dialogue of Pope Francis for the concept could be a good idea, at least for a start. What do you think? Veverve (talk) 23:56, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea! Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 23:58, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * done. Veverve (talk) 08:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Fun fact: doing my research, I have found here that two post-1054 E. Orthodox were considered as saints by the whole Catholic Church, and here that Gregory of Narek was also considered a Catholic saint despite him never being a Catholic. Veverve (talk) 08:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Fratelli tutti – not in the AAS?
I have searched far and wide in the 2020 and 2021 AAS (see here): I did not find Fratelli tutti anywhere. Fratelli tutti was released in October 2020, and the AAS is published up to March 2021. Did I miss Fratelli tutti in the AAS, or is it simply not part of it? Veverve (talk) 09:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I note that the Latin version is not available on the Vatican website at this time either. Also only a few months of 2021 AAS are posted so far. I'm sure it will be posted in due time.  Dcheney (talk) 18:16, 14 May 2023 (UTC)


 * That's right. There's no Latin text in the list of encyclicals by Pope Francis on the Vatican's web site, as of this posting, but there are translations into numerous other languages.  Norm1979 (talk) 01:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * now the AAS are up to June 2021. Still not FT. I have never seen documents published in the AAS in issues dating from 9 months after the document's original publication date. I personnally take it as meaning FT is not an official papal document. Veverve (talk) 08:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That is a silly idea. Of course it is an official papal document which can easily be verified by its existence on the Vatican website. I have no doubt that covid is at least partially responsible for the delay in its appearance in AAS, but I have no doubt that it will appear in due course. Dcheney (talk) 04:16, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It is publication in the AAS, and maybe in the Osservatore, that makes something an official papal act. Official dicastery documents do not need to be published in those to have legal force since it is not expected that all their letters, etc., be published in those; but an encyclical clearly needs it. Veverve (talk) 07:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Found it. Published in the November 2020 issue of AAS starting on page 969. Dcheney (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, it is in Latin! This is why I had missed it while searching. Even the title in the AAS is in Latin, despite being in Italian in all languages and the fact the document was originally written in Spanish. Tremendous work ! Veverve (talk) 16:58, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I have added the info to the Fratelli tutti article's infobox. Veverve (talk) 17:10, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Seton Hall University
Seton Hall University has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Adelindis von Buchau


The article Adelindis von Buchau has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "three different topics (person/festival/spring), none of which seem particularly notable"

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. SomeoneDreaming (talk) 01:34, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose There is no "Proposed Deletion" template to remove, but the article appears to adequate assert the subjects notability as the founder of a particular abbey. I thus oppose this deletion. –Zfish118⋉talk 14:05, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Albert Bahhuth Not Being Indexed
I wrote the articles for the 4 LA Auxiliaries who were announced a few weeks ago, (Albert Bahhuth Matthew Elshoff Brian Nunes Slawomir Szkredka) and all of the articles are showing up as indexed by Google (IE, showing up in the results when you google one of their names) except for Bahhuth's. Any ideas on why this is that way? Maximilian775 (talk) 00:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably hasn't been reviewed yet. You should consider applying to get autopatrolled if you qualify. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hm, why would that be? The other 3 articles were reviewed, and +Bahhuth's article was approved for a DYK -- wouldn't that mean it was reviewed? Maximilian775 (talk) 01:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily! One of my articles was a DYK on the main page the day it was reviewed before I got autopatrolled. Looking at your creations, you meet the quality standards and probably have enough for the relevant admin to give you the right. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Journey / day-by-day summary for WYD Lisbon
I've begun a day-by-day breakdown of WYD Lisbon on its page, similar to the one on the Rio page. Additions from various sources would be appreciated. Maximilian775 (talk) Maximilian775 (talk) 15:24, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding a direct link to World Youth Day 2023 for those interested. I think we could probably cut down a bit of the material once the dust has settled. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:53, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Association law of 1901
I started a draft for the French Association law of 1901. Under this law "12,000 Catholic schools were closed, and 50,000 members of religious orders were dispersed." Any help with expansion would be appreciated. Best, Thriley (talk) 17:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Thriley, thanks for your article! As it currently stands, it doesn't look like it meets WP:N -- Maybe consider folding it in to Catholic Church in France or the Church and State section of the French Third Republic? Maximilian775 (talk) Maximilian775 (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The French article is extensive. I think there’s plenty to expand with instead of redirecting. Thriley (talk) 20:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll be glad for this important coverage of laïcité. If I find myself unoccupied by other obligations, I'll take a more serious look at helping. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:23, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Carlo d'Ippolito di Sant'Ippolito
I created Carlo d'Ippolito di Sant'Ippolito. The article was moved back to draft based on notability concerns. Does he meet notability just by holding the office he held? Thriley (talk) 01:31, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Article proposed for deletion: Xavier Accart - can you look at this?
Xavier Accart is a French Catholic writer. Our article describes him as: He's written Catholicism-related books in French for general readers.
 * "Xavier Accart (born 1971) is an historian of ideas, specializing in René Guénon. His field of research lies at the crossroads of the history of spirituality, anthropology of religion and literary creation."

Is the subject notable and are there sources that meet WP:RS and WP:BIO requirements?

The proposed deletion tag on the article gives instructions on what to do if you object to the deletion or support it.

Thanks,

-- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 21:30, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


 * FYI -- another editors removed the proposed deletion tag, cancelling the deletion for now. An AfD may follow soon.
 * -- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Ordinariate for Catholics of Armenian Rite in Romania
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Ordinariate for Catholics of Armenian Rite in Romania that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Paul Kazuhiro Mori, former auxiliary bishop of Tokyo
Paul Kazuhiro Mori was redirected. I’m not sure it was warranted. Any input would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 02:11, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Seems like it was warranted here. My BEFORE search shows little independent from Church sources. You would have to make the case that the subject passes WP:NBISHOP which, according to WP:CLERGYOUTCOMES, is unlikely. It serves you right starting a stub with a single source rather than working up a sandbox draft with every source that could be found. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 03:23, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have sources which satisfy the notability requirements or a belief that such sources exist? Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 15:17, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposed for deletion (PROD): Benedicaria
FYI, the article Benedicaria has been proposed for deletion (WP:PROD). The first sentences summarize the subject thusly:


 * "Benedicaria, which means "Way of Blessing," is a relatively new term for a number of loosely related family-based folk traditions found throughout Italy, most notably in Southern Italy and Sicily. Though referred to by some as "Folk Magic" or even as "Witchcraft," the various Benedicaria Traditions are concerned almost exclusively with healing, cleansing, spirituality, and religious devotion."

The nominator wrote this summary of their concerns:


 * "Unsourced original research, fails to meet Notability. Has longstanding issues, no sign of them being fixed "

If you agree or disagree with deletion, there are instructions on the deletion notice for what to do.

Thanks, A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 13:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Mario Cecchini (Italian bishop)
Bishop of Roman Catholic Diocese of Fano-Fossombrone-Cagli-Pergola.

Please share your assessments of this article, positive or negative.

-- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 13:34, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Brant J. Pitre
These are the first sentences from the article:
 * "Brant James Pitre… is a New Testament scholar and Distinguished Research Professor of Scripture at the Augustine Institute. He has written extensively on the historical Jesus, the Virgin Mary, Paul the Apostle, the origin of the Eucharist, and the canonical Gospels."

Please share your assessments of this article, positive or negative.

-- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 14:49, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Roman Catholic Diocese of Richmond
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Roman Catholic Diocese of Richmond that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject.  ❯❯❯  Raydann  (Talk)   16:27, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposed for deletion (PROD): Free Church of Antioch
FYI, the article Free Church of Antioch has been proposed for deletion (WP:PROD). The first sentence summarizes the subject thusly:


 * "The Free Church of Antioch is an Independent Catholic Church."

The church website shows 2 archbishops (one emeritus), 5 bishops, and 27 priests across 15 US states and 2 European countries.

The nominator wrote this summary of their concerns:


 * "Clearly not a notable topic, no secondary source even mentions it. This topic thus fails WP:GNG (WP:NCHURCH)."

If you agree or disagree with deletion, there are instructions on the deletion notice for what to do.

Thanks,

-- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 04:47, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:List of bishops of the Polish National Catholic Church in America#Requested move 1 September 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:List of bishops of the Polish National Catholic Church in America that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:43, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Józef Abelewicz § Requested move 3 October 2023
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Józef Abelewicz § Requested move 3 October 2023. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move discussion: Chrysanthus Janssen --> Chrysanthus (arachnologist)
Members of this WikiProject might be interested in the requested move discussion happening at Talk:Chrysanthus Janssen. Thank you for any feedback at that talk page! Umimmak (talk) 01:51, 24 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Discussion is now between Chrysanthus (arachnologist) and Father Chrysanthus as possible article titles. Thank you again for any additional comments in that requested move discussion. Umimmak (talk) 07:25, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Diocese of Cuneo-Fossano
As of today (despite what the English version of the Bollettino says), the Diocese of Cuneo and the Diocese of Fossano have been united to form the Diocese of Cuneo-Fossano. If someone has the time, it'll take a good bit of work to merge the appropriate articles. Dcheney (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Would it make sense to keep the separate articles for the Diocese of Cuneo and the Diocese of Fossano (updated to show that they are no longer active diocese) and create a new article for the Diocese of Cuneo-Fossano (stating that it was formed from the merger of Cuneo and Fossano)? Or do we go with just one article for Cueno-Fossano with merged content and turn the articles for Cuneo and Fossano into redirects to it?  &mdash;  Archer1234  (t·c) 04:46, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Archer1234, I think your solution is the best of the two. I do wonder how the merger has been phrased canonically -- is it extinctive, with one diocese ceasing to exist and being enveloped by the other? Or are both being suppressed and a new one being erected altogether? Maximilian775 (talk) 19:46, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The official document with be in the AAS ... in about 2 years :-) Dcheney (talk) 07:28, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * lol too real... has the decree at least been published in a diocesan paper or something similar? Maximilian775 (talk) 18:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I also support leaving the two articles and creating a new Diocese of Cuneo-Fossano article. Veverve (talk) 19:26, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

B-checklist in project template
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council § Determining the future of B-class checklists. &#x0020;This project is being notified since it is one of the 82 WikiProjects that opted to support B-checklists (B1-B6) in your project banner. DFlhb (talk) 11:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

How independent are different Catholic news outlets?
FYI, the article Cardinal O'Connor Conference on Life has been proposed for deletion (WP:PROD). The first sentences summarize the subject this way:


 * "The Cardinal O'Connor Conference on Life, also known simply as the O'Connor Conference (OCC), is the largest student-run pro-life conference in the United States. The conference was founded by Georgetown University undergraduate students in 2000 and subsequently named in honor of the late Archbishop of New York, Cardinal John Joseph O'Connor, who earned a PhD from Georgetown University and was an outspoken critic of abortion. The Conference is run entirely by Georgetown students each year on the day after the annual March for Life in Washington, D.C. in late January."

The nominator wrote this summary of their concerns:


 * "There is no evidence of satisfying Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Virtually every reference is unambiguously not independent, and scarcely an[y] of them comes anywhere near to being substantial coverage. (proposed by JBW) "

If you agree or disagree with deletion, there are instructions on the deletion notice for what to do.

Thanks,

-- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 20:54, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I removed the PROD on procedural grounds as I feel the concern regarding the independence of the sourcing is inappropriate. This is possibly worth an AfD but I would oppose deletion on the grounds of extant references. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Blessing same sex couples
Is there an article on the Vatican's decision to authorize same sex blessings? If not, I think one would certainly be justified. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think there's a lag time because we're trying to parse what it means. There probably ought to be an article. I've collated sources below:


 * (note imprecision about who issued statement in this source specifically)
 * There are more, but these are sufficient to kick things off. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:35, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * letting you two know since I've spoken to you about it either here or off-Wiki that started Fiducia supplicans. I'll be sporadically improving it as I can, but I think it's off to a solid start. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Pbritti Thank you. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Pbritti, @Igallards7, @Jahaza the article is a good start but it is generating a ton of coverage and commentary, some of it critical. The article needs to be expanded to include reactions. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:04, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In the process, I discovered that several DDF related pages and categories had never been updated from CDF to DDF. So I moved Archive of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to Archive of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith and proposed speedy renaming of Category:Documents of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and Category:Members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It's quite possible that articles about other congregations have this problem with subsidiary articles and categories, if someone wants to look into it at some point. Jahaza (talk) 17:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll look into that after Christmas. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:43, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In the process, I discovered that several DDF related pages and categories had never been updated from CDF to DDF. So I moved Archive of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to Archive of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith and proposed speedy renaming of Category:Documents of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and Category:Members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It's quite possible that articles about other congregations have this problem with subsidiary articles and categories, if someone wants to look into it at some point. Jahaza (talk) 17:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll look into that after Christmas. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:43, 19 December 2023 (UTC)


 * FYI This event is being discussed at WP:ITNC as a possible blurb on the main page. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/fiducia-supplicans-whos-saying-what
 * Useful compilation of sources here.
 * Maximilian775 (talk) 17:24, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This would be great to build out the Reactions section on the main article. Good find. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also This is being discussed on Talk:Pope Francis, see this section. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)