Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 2024

Order of St. Sylvester
I came to this page as part of the process of deleting the article on a Japanese musician (deletion discussion), who claimed a number of "nobility" titles, all fairly obviously bogus. Looking at the article (Notable members), there are lots of totally plausible referenced people, but many unreferenced or totally implausible people. It is difficult to tell immediately which website would belong to the genuine papally awarded honour, rather than some commercial offshoot. Can anyone help find a real list of the awards, for example, which could be used to filter out the imposters? I will leave Kento Masuda there for the time being as a typical example. Imaginatorium (talk) 08:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * took me a few days but I do believe that this is a genuine Italian government document containing a list of Papal and Italian honors extant as of 2015. If you require anything more, I know a guy! ~ Pbritti (talk) 07:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I can't find anything in that document like a list of names. Just lots of details of various decorations. I am thinking of just flagging all entries without a plausible reference (quite a few just link to the person's own website, which has no information at all). Or perhaps where the subject has a WP article, I could just delete them and put a comment on the talk page of that article. Imaginatorium (talk) 11:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Checking some of the refs already in place, I find these honors listed in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (AAS). See, for example, the citation for Anthony Bailey or the two citations related to this order at Anthony Bailey (PR advisor). These refs lack page numbers, but you'll find Bailey listed on page 673 of AAS for 5 September 2008 HERE, assuming he is "Anthony John James Bailey (Westminster)". There are a few hundred recipients named, with rank and date awarded, almost all in the year preceding publication.
 * Curious about the survival of these honors under Francis, I found a comparable but far shorter list covering 2021 here, pp. 788–91. Rutsq (talk) 13:15, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Renaming Category:Roman Catholic theologians to Category:Catholic theologians
Discussion about a proposal to rename, see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_January_5. Please leave your comments pro and con. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Dom Justo Takayama
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Dom Justo Takayama that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Syro-Malabar Catholic Church that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

New parameters for Infobox church
I have requested that two additional parameters be created for Template:Infobox church: sui_iuris_church and former_sui_iuris_church. Modeled on sui_iuris_church parameter of Template:Infobox diocese, the sui_iuris_church parameter would be located below the denomination parameter, the former_sui_iuris_church parameter below the former_denomination parameter. This would be broadly useful for current or former Eastern Catholic church buildings, as well as church buildings in countries where the Latin Church can not be assumed as the operator of a Catholic building. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:43, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Coverage question
Does WikiProject Catholicism cover Catholic schools and Catholic colleges/universities? I have two local Catholic universities that aren't yet included in this project. Stefen Towers among the rest!  Gab • Gruntwerk 03:55, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * We include anything related to Catholicism under the project's umbrella. If they were once or are currently affiliated with the church, they're within the purview of the project! ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, great - thanks. I'll go ahead and add them then. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 04:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably concurrent/overlapping scope with WikiProject Higher education and WikiProject Schools. &mdash;  Archer1234  (t·c) 04:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Article reorganisation proposal for Pope Francis and LGBT topics
There is currently a discussion at Talk:Pope Francis and LGBT topics regarding a reorganisation of the article. The thread is Article reorganisation proposal. Thank you.

I am seeking consensus for a significant reorganisation of the article. I would be grateful for your comments. IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 14:20, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Additional comments and oversight would be appreciated! IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 11:46, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Expert needed (Magisterium, Fiducia Supplicans)
We need an expert at Fiducia Supplicans, good editors and reliable sources are disagreeing and the article and talk pages have been filled with persistent dispute. If anyone very knowledgeable in the subject would be willing to look at the recent edits and the talk page, they will see how messy this has become. Any help from those who specialize in this area would be greatly appreciated by all of us trying to maintain the article as objectively as possible. Ysys9 (talk) 15:44, 30 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry to say that until the topic is more settled within the Church itself, we are not likely to see it clarified here. Dcheney (talk) 06:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to add an "eparchy" parameter to Infobox Christian leader
There is currently a discussion at the talk page for the template Infobox Christian leader regarding a proposal to add an eparchy parameter to the template. You are invited to review and join the discussion. Thank you. &mdash; Archer1234  (t·c) 17:13, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikiproject banner question
Sometimes on talk pages, the Catholicism Wikiproject is given as a subproject of Wikiproject Christianity (as in Talk:Augustine of Hippo), other times it is a separate banner (as in Talk:Jerome). Someone asked about this several years ago on the banner template talk page, and got the answer that they are functionally the same. But is there a preference between the two, or does it really not matter at all? Thanks! Smdjcl (talk) 20:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Santa Cueva de Montserrat
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Santa Cueva de Montserrat that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Shrovetide
An editor has requested that Shrovetide be moved to Pre-Lent, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You &#32;are invited to participate in the move discussion. Graham (talk) 01:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Clement of Rome
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Clement of Rome that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Writing an article for a Catholic movie entitled Trinity's Triumph
+ To whom it may concern:

Good afternoon! I am new to trying to create an article for Wikipedia and have been having a hard time trying to do it on my own. A friend told that I should reach out to a Wikipedian and then another friend mentioned your WikiProject Catholicism section.

I am hoping that one of you would be so kind to write an article for the movie that I wrote and produced entitled Trinity's Triumph. I have added all the pertinent information in this section:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Arts_and_entertainment/Film,_radio_and_television#T%E2%80%93V

Please let me know if you need more information.

I pray that one of you will be able to help me.

SJJPF (talk) 18:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC) Father Stephen Fichter
 * Wikipedia is not a platform for your advertising. Articles about films have to pass WP:NFILM and your subject does not. While I was able to find sources about the movie, almost all of them were interviews of the producer or were written with input from the producer, so none of them (from FoxNews to National Catholic Reporter) provide any claim of notability. The good news is, you made your film. Perhaps in the next decade or two the film will become the subject of multiple independent reviews. Until then, there's nothing to be done here.  Chris Troutman  ( talk )  19:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Malaysian dioceses
Hello all. User:GeralfD has been adding interminable lists of individual houses of worship to the articles relating to Malaysian dioceses; see Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Kota Kinabalu and Roman Catholic Diocese of Keningau for example. I removed some of these lists but I realize I do not know what the Project Catholicism's stance would be. I leave it to you, thanks.  Mr.choppers &#124;  ✎  01:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reaching out to ask. WP Catholicism defers to EnWikipedia policies and guidelines, so your removal of such extensive lists of unverified content falls well within the standards of WP:V. As best I can tell, lists of individual church buildings that lack independent references (or any references at all) are not encyclopedically relevant. If you'd like help cleaning, please ping me at my talk page! Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I went ahead and reverted their additions. Best,  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  18:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Even if sourced, are not these exhaustive lists of parishes contrary to WP:NOTDIRECTORY? Maybe any such lists ought to be limited to current or former parishes or parish churches. Notability is commonly used as an inclusion criterion for lists (for example for listing out a school's alumni).  &mdash;  Archer1234  (t·c) 01:26, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, churches with articles - not potentially notable churches, which could be anything - should be ok in places like Malaysia, where there won't be too many. It wouldn't do for eg Italy or France. Johnbod (talk) 14:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Fiducia supplicans
Despite the overwhelming viewpoint among philosophers (such as Edward Feser), news reports, and more being that the 2021 document is not overruled, several editors are claiming that even mentioning this perception violates Wikipedia guidelines. Certainly this deserves mention in some form. The current version of the article comes across as an argumentative essay attempting to convince someone that nothing significant has changed. An idea that would be widely disputed at best.StardustToStardust (talk) 15:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Feser. A blogger who teaches philosophy at Pasadena City College. Do better. Rutsq (talk) 19:38, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * A lot of philosophers have blogs.
 * Does it matter where they teach? StardustToStardust (talk) 20:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For WP:BALANCE, their WP:SIGCOV matters, and I'm guessing Feser isn't going to get much traction in this context. In any case, WP:RS does matter; see WP:PRIMARY. IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 14:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It matters who publishes his views. If Dr. Feser has an article on this topic in NCRegister (or, even better, in a theological journal) we would have something to work with. Nautical Mongoose (talk) 17:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Isabella I of Castile
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Isabella I of Castile that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 13:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Is the Catholic Church a single denomination or a communion of 24?
Having exhausted conversation at Talk:Syro-Malabar Church, I wanted to raise the question here: is the Catholic Church one denomination or 24 denominations (the sui iuris Latin Church and 23 Eastern Catholic Churches)? While some sources related to Syriac Christianity describe some individual ECCs (the Maronite, Syro-Malabar, and Syro-Malankara) as denominations in that context, guiding sources like the Handbook of Denominations, Encyclopædia Britannica, and the Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches refers to the Catholic Church as a single denomination and the first two both explicitly identify the sui iuris churches as components of the one denomination. This aligns with most Catholic sources, which identify all 24 churches as part of one church. Historically, on Wikipedia, denomination has not been synonymous with sui iuris, noting standards extant beyond this WikiProject like Template:Infobox diocese's separation of the terms into two parameters. ~ Pbritti (talk) 13:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Just one - that's rather the point. Johnbod (talk) 14:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Protestantism, Pentecostalism etc. are denominational families or traditions within Christianity as the relevant articles Christian denomination and List of Christian denominations imply. Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination). The Catholic Church is a denominational family and each of the sui juris churches are distinct denominations with distinct liturgical rites, doctrines, culture, organisation and history. All the Eastern Catholic Church articles currently employ the infobox Template:Infobox Christian denomination. For example see List of Christian denominations, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is listed along with the Roman/Latin and other Eastern Catholic Churches as denominations under the subheading 'Catholic Church' (denominational family). Logosx127 (talk) 14:20, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The passage you quote is referenced in a couple articles to a book on feminism in Christianity (without page number), this 2023 article on job satisfaction in faith-based organizations (and looks like a case of WP:CITOGENESIS), and this summary of a lecture. Only the last is a reference (sorta) by a scholar familiar with Christian denominations, and all three do not explicitly identify sui iuris churches as denominations. As noted above, experts on denominations agree that the 24 sui iuris churches are part of one denomination. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The official website of the SMC says: The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is one of the 23 Eastern (Oriental) Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome. It is the largest Eastern Catholic Church after the Ukrainian Church and the largest of the Saint Thomas Christian (Nazrani) denominations with 5 million believers. Quoting the state census, KC ZACHARIAH (2016) says: Among the denominations in the Christian community, the Syro-. Malabar Catholics are the most dispersed denomination (Religious Denominations of Kerala). Meanwhile most of the online sources define the SMC, and also the other Sui juris Churches are individual denominations united under the leadership of the Pope. 1 Cardinal Mar George Alencherry, the head of Kerala's prominent Christian denomination, the Syro Malabar Catholic Church.. 2 Telangana, Bishop Raphael Thattil has been elected as major archbishop of the powerful Syro-Malabar Church. The church is the largest denomination of Catholics in India and prominent among the 22 oriental Catholic churches that are in full communion with Rome. 3 Though the Syro-Malabar Church has more than 3.6 million members, more than half a million of them are scattered outside Kerala state, where the church remains the largest Christian denomination. 4 A day after the Syro-Malabar Church's Public Affairs Commission rallied behind Bishop Mar Joseph Kallarangatt in the 'narcotic jihad' row, the denomination 's largest religious publication, Sathyadeepam, has struck a contradictory not 5 One church of the Syro-Malabar denomination in Kerala's Wayanad district has offered 10,000 rupeela's 00) for a couple's fifth child. 6 the holy communion of two souls in the traditional way of this denomination of Christianity. 7 The Syro-Malabar Church, the largest Christian denomination in Kerala, on Wednesday 8Kerala’s Syro-Malabar Church To date, the denomination owns 22 churches in the US.Logosx127 (talk) 14:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)


 * One. The Christian denomination article says: Divisions between one group and another are defined by authority and doctrine. The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church differs neither in authority nor in doctrine from the Latin Catholic Church, so it's not a separate denomination. Some do seem to use the term in a looser sense to mean something generic like "group", but that seems to be mostly by secular news sources that wouldn't understand the technical details of Christianity rather than academic sources. Smdjcl (talk) 15:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Smdjcl Obviously it differs in doctrine and authority. The Syro-Malabar Church, as defined in the Code of Canons of Eastern Catholic Churches, follows East Syriac theology and doctrine. The church even venerates Nestorius as a saint while he remains a condemned heretic in the Latin Church. The Eastern Catholic Churches have dioceses in parallel to the Latin Church and this imply that they are distinct denominations. Logosx127 (talk) 15:21, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The Syro-Malabar Church follows the CCEC, which was promulgated by Pope John Paul II, because they are under the authority of the pope, like every other Catholic. Having their own structure parallel to the Latin Church is (part of) what makes them a sui juris church, not a denomination. There's an analogy to religious orders with their provinces and separate section of canon law as well as their own proper law, or even the Anglican Ordinariate. But they all follow the same authority as the Latin Catholic Church, the pope.
 * The Nestorius situation is slightly more complicated; many would argue that they don't venerate Nestorius as a saint, but they do use, with Rome's permission, an anaphora attributed to him (as a footnote in our article says), and they give him the respectful title "Mar", which is not equivalent to saint (since even living bishops are given this title). At any rate, there aren't any real differences in theology, otherwise they wouldn't be in full communion with Rome. As I recall, they were required to reject certain heresies upon coming into communion with Rome. Smdjcl (talk) 16:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Smdjcl, you are correct on all fronts here. Additionally, it should be noted that some Syro-Malabar continue using Roman Rite liturgies to present (though this may have been completely banned canonically in the 1990s; my sources are unclear). Because of these liturgical divisions, Rome has intervened multiple times–something the Archbishop of Canterbury could never do in a row between factions of the US Episcopal Church. Further evidence that the sui iuris churches are not a denomination. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, I think you have lost the point here. Having universal jurisdiction or parallel jurisdiction has nothing to do with sui juris status. Sui juris juris status may be conferred upon a regional institution as well. The SMC's official commission itself has clarified that it does venerate Nestorius as a saint and the source can be found in the relevant articles and discussions. And of course there are serious differences in theology, for that's an important part as defined in the CCEO to be a distinguishing factor for Eastern Catholic Churches. On a Western point of view, only the Latin Church is apparent and it is viewed as the Catholic Church. But that's not the case elsewhere where different Eastern Catholic Churches exist. Obviously that is a point of contention. Anyway, the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Armenian Orthodox Church are distinct denominations with their Oriental Orthodox Communion being a denominational family. If that's not the case with Eastern Catholic Churches, then they will have to be removed from lists involving denominations such as these. Logosx127 (talk) 17:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * My point about the parallel structure is that having one doesn't make you a separate denomination, since religious orders and the Anglican Ordinariate likewise have parallel structures yet aren't separate denominations. Our article on Nestorius says in a footnote that the Syro-Malabar Church doesn't venerate Nestorius; the source that you have translated on your own talk page seems to say that they venerate him but believe that he didn't teach Nestorianism, which would be a disagreement over historical interpretation, not theology. I don't know enough about the Oriental Orthodox to respond to that part of your comment.
 * I would be interested to know what canon you're referring to in the CCEO, as I could find nothing saying that the eastern churches are defined (in part) by a different theology. The closest I could find is canon 28, which is defining the eastern rites (as opposed to the sui juris churches), and says that they have a distinct "theological patrimony" ("patrimonium [...] theologicum"), which is very different from having a distinct theology. Smdjcl (talk) 15:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Now since Pbritti has accepted to reword the title of the discussion in a more neutral manner from the previous misleading version, the discussion can be expected to have taken proper turn. Logosx127 (talk) 16:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you saying you're going to ignore the four editors who disagreed with you here and at Talk:Syro-Malabar Church? It would seem there is a consensus in opposition to your view. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well consensus are to be taken from discussions under neutral and unbiased circumstances. Misleading title can have serious impacts on consensus making. I did not say I am going to ignore their opinion. Logosx127 (talk) 16:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Johnbod, @Smdjcl, @Pbritti The definition says, a Christian denomination is a distinct religious body within Christianity that comprises all church congregations of the same kind, identifiable by traits such as a name, particular history, organization, leadership, theological doctrine, worship style and, sometimes, a founder. The question is: Which one does this title best fit? The Catholic Church as a whole or the individually in each particular church, like the Syro-Malabar Church, given the fact that each particular church has its own distinctive liturgy, culture, history, theology, doctrine, spirituality, canon laws and most importantly, parallel dioceses around the world. . Logosx127 (talk) 16:20, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Let me make it very clear for all of you. The result of this discussion will have the following impacts on the articles related to Catholicism in Wikipedia.
 * if the result is that the Catholic Church is a denominational family or a Communion and, the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Latin Church are distinct denominations, then the current state of the articles will remain unchanged. But,
 * if the result is that the Catholic Church is a denomination and the Eastern Catholic Churches are simply subgroupings within this denomination, then most of the articles will have to edited to reflect the same.
 * Catholic Church will have to be treated as an individual denomination like the Coptic Orthodox Church or the Russian Orthodox Church in place of a general tradition, denominational family or communion like Oriental Orthodoxy or Eastern Orthodoxy.
 * The Template:Infobox Christian denomination will have to be removed from the Eastern Catholic Churches' and Latin Church's articles. New infoboxes may be created and introduced as replacement if required.
 * The Eastern Catholic Churches and Latin Church will have to be removed from articles like Christian denomination and List of Christian denominations and country-based articles.
 * The infoboxes for Eastern Catholic leaders will have to be changed from Christian leader to patriarch or bishop and their names will be removed from List of Christian leaders
 * The Eastern Catholic Churches will cease to be represented or listed in articles for Christian denominations everywhere.
 * With this in mind, the discussion should move on. Logosx127 (talk) 17:07, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Johnbod, @Pbritti, @Smdjcl and sorry, I forgot about @Macinderum. Pinging all of you, so that all of you get notified about this. Logosx127 (talk) 17:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The entire Catholic church must be treated as a single denomination. The sui iuris churches that make up the Catholic Church does not enjoy that much independence as the provinces of the Anglican Communion or the autocephalous churches of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. The Eastern Catholic Churches use Catholic adaptations of eastern rites and liturgies. They comply with Catholic theology and doctrines on all essential matters. The leaders of Eastern Catholic churches are subject to the authority of the Pope. The pope can interfere in the affairs of the Eastern Catholic Churches and his decision is final and binding. I could find sources on a recent papal intervention in the Syro-Malabar Church itself.(1,2) It is about a dispute on whether the priest should face the altar or the people while celebrating Mass. As I understand, the Syro-Malabar synod ratified a compromise form of Mass facing both the altar and the people, but most of the priests and lay members of one archeparchy dissented from the majority opinion. The matter eventually reached the pope, who supported the synod decisions and demanded obedience from the rebels. The Pope also warned that the dissidents are in danger of becoming a sect.(3) If the pope wields so much authority over a seemingly trivial matter, then the Eastern Catholic Churches including the Syro-Malabar Church are definitely not independent denominations. They are part of a single Catholic Church.--Macinderum (talk) 06:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Macinderum It is astonishing to see this much of misinformation from the part of a fellow editor here. No one has actually said that the SMC is not a part of the Catholic Church. So yours is simply a strawman's argument. Actually the ongoing liturgical dispute proves nothing but the fact that the Syro-Malabar Church is indeed a distinct denomination which recognises the pope as their spiritual leader. The liturgy as such, as the pope says, is the decision of the Synod of the SM Church and the pope is simply urging the SM priests to obey their synod. The pope meanwhile, is noted for his support for versus populum mass throughout the Latin Church as expressed in his Traditiones custodes motu proprio in which he significantly discouraged the Ad Orientem mass. The SM CHURCH'S decision us actually opposite to that of the Pope's decision. The dissenting SM priests actually want the form of mass as envisioned by the pope and the Latin Church. They also sought papal intervention in the matter and the Holy See had initially opened them an option for dispensation. But the SM church was quick to protest against this and the Holy See had to withdraw its decision. As of now, the pope is simply asking the priests to follow and obey their SM synod and bishops and he is seemingly helpless for these dissenting priests. The pope finally warned disciplinary actions against the priests but has not taken any action of that sort until now. Instead he's just informing the dissenting priests to follow their SM synod liturgy instead of his own, and warning them that their SM hierarchy will be forced to expell them if they don't obey their synod. Therefore the entire thing is proving that the Pope's role in the SM Church is very limited. Logosx127 (talk) 09:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The denomination articles don't really need to change because, as TheLionHasSeen said, there are other denominations that fall under "Catholicism" like the Liberal Catholic Church and other independent/liberal Catholic traditions. Additionally, the transfers of large proportions of other denominations' populations/jurisdictions to Rome as Eastern Catholic Churches is worth noting in those articles, even if the ECCs don't themselves constitute independent denominations. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, my two cents are that this conversation seems to be forcing a "Wikipedia" definition of "denomination" where it doesn't neatly fit for the sake of consistency. It's fine for Eastern Catholic churches to use infoboxes for denominations and for their leaders to use infoboxes for Christian leaders.  This is an edge case where Wikipedia's technical infrastructure used to treat denominations fits Eastern Catholic churches best, even if they are not denominations.  I don't see any issues with the status quo, and I think an attempt to achieve consistency by forcing a "Wikipedia" definition of denomination will impoverish, rather than help, our readers. IgnatiusofLondon ( he/him • ☎️) 12:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We don't need an ambiguity here. Eastern catholic Churches are either denominations or not, but not both at the same time. If they aren't denominations, they can't be treated in the way other denominational churches are treated. The status quo can remain only if they are considered denominations. The discussion must sort out a consensus whether they are or not, and it must be implemented thoroughly everywhere to avoid further confusions. If required, new infoboxes may be created but only in a way it is easily distinguished from those of denominational churches. Logosx127 (talk) 12:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The status quo can remain only if they are considered denominations. Why?  The infobox Christian denomination at e.g. Syro-Malabar Church doesn't claim that it is a denomination. For readers, the word "denomination" appears neither in the infobox nor in the article text.  The only people who could possibly be misled to think it is a denomination are people reading the source code, and that's us editors who know the difference.  This question seems like a timesink for editors; there are better ways of spending our precious wikiediting time than duplicating an infobox which will have the same parameters and content.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it. IgnatiusofLondon ( he/him • ☎️) 13:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That being said, List of Christian denominations could do with a few sentences explaining how Catholics relate to the term "denomination", which, in my experience, is generally "not at all". As other editors have said, Catholicism is one denomination, and the partcular sui iuris churches are just that: sui iuris churches, not denominations.  Many Catholics I know, however, wouldn't say they belong to a Christian denomination; rather, denominations separated from Catholicism.  It might be tricky to find authoritative sources that discuss this particular question.  It's fine for the sui iuris churches to be listed at List of Christian denominations (indeed, the sources you provided suggest that they are often treated as separate denominations), but there should be some care given to the fact they do not self-identify as denominations. IgnatiusofLondon ( he/him • ☎️) 13:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, that's a huge misinformation. should be some care given to the fact they do not self-identify as denominations. The OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the Syro-Malabar Church clearly says that it is a denomination. The official website of the SMC says: The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is one of the 23 Eastern (Oriental) Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome. It is the largest Eastern Catholic Church after the Ukrainian Church and the largest of the Saint Thomas Christian (Nazrani) denominations with 5 million believers.1 I would like to advice you to read the debate fully. Again, there's no need for a ridiculous ambiguity out here. Either they are denominations or they are not. They cannot be both. If they are not denominations, they can't be treated as if they are denominations. Ambiguity and confusion is simply NOT fine. Logosx127 (talk) 13:44, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Using infobox templates that aren't 100% accurately named isn't really introducing any confusion or ambiguity. For example, the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham (and the other personal ordinariates) use Template:Infobox diocese despite being intentionally not dioceses. It's fine to use the denomination infobox while acknowledging that sui iuris churches aren't denominations. ~ Pbritti (talk) 13:52, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't read too much into that. In this context, "denomination" is a convenient word here to compare the SM Church to other ecclesial communities and traditions descended from St Thomas.  For a general audience, I can see why "denomination" fits best here.  Importantly, it's not making a claim to be a separate denomination from or of Catholicism, and does not use "denomination" in that context.  IgnatiusofLondon ( he/him • ☎️) 13:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, it's either a denomination or not. Using the same infobox for a denomination and something that's not creates confusion. There's no need for a word denomination referring to the ECCs to avoid ambiguity. IgnatiusofLondon's arguments imply that there's some kind of ambiguity with the word denomination. If that's the case then the ECC's can be considered distinct denominations. But if they are not denominations definitely there's no need to equate or make them similar to actual denominations. Logosx127 (talk) 14:16, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Using the same infobox for a denomination and something that's not creates confusion. Here's a fix: a wikicomment in the source code, visible only to editors reading the source code, clarifying that we're using this infobox for convenience even though it's a sui iuris church.  That way, no editors will be confused.  I personally think it's overkill for a confusion that doesn't exist, but what do you think? IgnatiusofLondon ( he/him • ☎️) 14:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It's more ambiguity than convenience. If convenience creates ambiguity, it's better to opt for another way. Logosx127 (talk) 14:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It might be worth pointing out that Template:Infobox Christian denomination was actually moved to Template:Infobox religion six months ago, and Infobox religion itself is used on plenty of articles that are actually considered Christian denominations. No one seems to see any ambiguity in that. Smdjcl (talk) 14:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * My opinion is that Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Church of the East, Protestantism, Pentecostalism etc. are Christian denominational families with varied degrees of centralisation and unity. Eastern Catholic Churches can be viewed as denominations as with individual Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox denominations, with Oriental Orthodox churches being only loosely united, Eastern Orthodox churches being more united and Eastern Catholic Churches being most united. Individual Eastern catholic Churches being viewed as distinct denominations is not to be seen as contradictory to the fact that the Catholic Church itself being considered as a denomination in another context. Logosx127 (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You are alone in this opinion in this discussion and your opinion runs contrary to sources considered the gold standard for defining denominations. Unless several other people chime in here, I think the discussion is steering against your opinion. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't agree with you or your gold or copper standards. I am entitled to have my opinion. At the same time the consensus building is another thing and that's what going to be done here. The ECC's are either denominations or not, but they can't be both at the same time. Otherwise, the ambiguity in the term 'denomination' used at different contexts must be addressed. Logosx127 (talk) 18:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The ambiguity (rather, the lack thereof) has been addressed by myself and other editors. It is a non-issue. If the no further support for your position appears over the next couple days, we can consider this discussion settled in favor of describing sui iuris churches as components of a single denomination: the Catholic Church. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The ambiguity has not been addressed, it has only been denied. But yes, the discussion can be considered concluded if no further involvement is seen. Logosx127 (talk) 23:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * In alignment with Logosx127, they can be referred to by the ambiguous denominational terminology. To do otherwise, especially after claiming a consensus when a discussion has yet to close would be egregious. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 13:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I thought the discussion is closed after seeing Pbritti having started to implement it elsewhere. Logosx127 (talk) 13:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The whole discussion should be closed properly, however, it is proper to assume they began their contributions in good faith elsewhere. However, regarding Catholicism under the Pope, it must be acknowledged that Catholicism is definitely a denominational family in the sense it contains Roman Catholicism, Independent Catholicism (and the subset of Old and Old Roman Catholicism, and Liberal Catholics), etc. In Roman Catholicism, which forms a single denomination, there are 24 sui juris churches but they are not separate single denominations apart from the Romish Church. That is what is missing I see as an understanding. But, in essence, it's only been two whole days! I'd like to also add this: what they are saying does not have to change their listing on denominational articles whatsoever. That's just overbearing. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 13:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If the Eastern Catholic Churches aren't denominations, they need not be listed as denominations elsewhere. Instead the old catholic as well as independent catholic denominations may be listed.Logosx127 (talk) 13:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Are we writing in English here? - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 13:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I firmly believe that the solution to this discussion, whatever it may be, should be implemented everywhere. It is definitely necessary to avoid further confusion, unnecessary disputes and contradicting information. Logosx127 (talk) 14:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We can't propose a "solution" to whether churches are or aren't denominations; we can only go off what reliable sources say. Now, for example, List of Christian denominations does not claim anywhere that the sui iuris churches are denominations, and notes that the Catholic Church considers itself predenominational.  It doesn't leave room for ambiguity, in my view, but the only helpful addition I can see is a sentence relating sui iuris churches to denominations. IgnatiusofLondon ( he/him • ☎️) 14:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ignatius and Pbritti!! - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 14:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)


 * the transfers of large proportions of other denominations' populations/jurisdictions to Rome as Eastern Catholic Churches is worth noting in those articles, even if the ECCs don't themselves constitute independent denominations If we added a sentence (perhaps in a footnote) to that effect (reworded to avoid "worth noting"), would that satisfy you, ? IgnatiusofLondon ( he/him • ☎️) 14:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, that could be possible but we are not discussing conversions there. Instead, we are listing membership of various denominations. Logosx127 (talk) 14:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well said!!! Now, if only we can also assist in the issue at the talk page for Oriental Orthodox Churches. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 14:25, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That's misleading. The Independent Catholic Churches are different denominations, but ECCs aren't according to our consensus. So ECCs are to be removed from list of denominations. If they continue to be listed at the list of denominations, then they are indeed denominations. Logosx127 (talk) 14:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, if you'd like them not listed individually on List of Christian denominations, that can be done. But insisting that their mention on that list constitutes them being denominations, that's not the case. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It is not misleading whatsoever, and everyone is in agreement against your motives here. I am suspecting WP:ADVOCACY among other things, hence your relation to this sockpuppet investigation's record regarding Malankara-related and Catholic-related articles here on Wikipedia. No one has stated that the Eastern Catholic Churches are different denominations separate from the Roman Catholic Church, and they will not be removed from the list as the information is in plain English, using WP:COMMONSENSE as a measure. What you're arguing here and on the talk page for Oriental Orthodox Churches is akin to stating the following: "I see that these colors of humans are not separate from the common tone of the Middle East, biblically speaking, but they are indeed different visibly, even though they are of the same common tone or shade. I see there is one common shade among all humans, being that humanity is one, but we shouldn't list those colors because it's saying humans of different colors are different subspecies altogether." - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 19:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not gonna respond to your strawman. I am raising a logical objection against the obvious double standards. ECCs can't be denominations and non-denominations at the same time. There needs to be consistency and clarity about their status. If they aren't denominations, they must cease to be listed among other denominations. If they are listed, they are to be treated as denominations in article infoboxes for their houses of worship and institutions for sure. Either both or none for the sake of consistency and disambiguation. Logosx127 (talk) 05:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * By the information continuously provided, your consistent insisting that their mention on a list constitutes them being denominations is not conducive to building an encyclopedia. This cannot also be a strawman when there is substance. Either you're here to build an encyclopedia or continue to try to beat around the bush by continuous conflicts with others (again). - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 12:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * After seeing this notice on the 21st of March which you reverted from your talk page, I am going to begin to prepare disengaging and escalating this to administrators. Hopefully, they will solve this. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 12:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I have raised a logical objection and you don't want to answer it. Instead you are continuously raising strawman's arguments without properly addressing the real question. Don't forget that you had also initially agreed that there's indeed a ambiguity, In alignment with Logosx127, they can be referred to by the ambiguous denominational terminology. Now that you don't want the discussion here, its totally okay if you are leaving. The other users, me and Pbritti, as seen here Ok, if you'd like them not listed individually on List of Christian denominations, that can be done, had already agreed to a consensus and it was only you who disagreed. Now you are putting all the blame on me! Logosx127 (talk) 14:49, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Misreading us and selectively canvassing our conversations. WP:NOTHERE to build, rather to pontificate. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 14:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Pontificate? Me? That should be part of your own vocabulary as it mostly aligns with you better. I advice you, don't make this personal. I am discussing article related issues only. Pbritti was responding positively you tend to make it a personal war. Logosx127 (talk) 15:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

questionable sources used in Ratlines page
i found a concerning post from may 2023 in the talk section about the ratlines claiming that the work of one author cited, a man named John Loftus, was dodgy and the author was a conspiracy theorist. one book by this man was cited by a historian called Michael Phayer, who is also cited in the article. are questionable i then found this post in the reliable sources noticeboard that concluded the source was extremely unreliable: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 404 - Wikipedia

yet the article parts in question have not been removed, which is strange considering the page is on this wikiprojects watchlist of articles people have tried to tamper with in the past

Bird244 (talk) 23:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * The subject of this post appears to be Ratlines (World War II). Rutsq (talk) 23:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)