Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Central Asia/Archive 1

geographic scope
I would consider extending the range to Afghanistan, Tibet, Ladakh, and Tuva. Chris 21:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I forgot to add Afghanistan and am doing that now. As for the others, if you want to add them go ahead. Aelfthrytha 21:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd also include the North West Frontier Province (basically an extension of Pashtun Afghanistan]] and Baluchistan. Both of these places are very Central Asian and an extension of Iranian civilization of the Central Asian variety. Tombseye 22:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Add as you like. Aelfthrytha 23:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Tibet should be very much a part of it. I'm adding it, per Aelfthrytha deeptrivia (talk) 04:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I have some reservations on what regions should or should not be included in this project. For example, although Mongolia has strong historical importance to Central Asia, the country itself is definitely not geographically Central Asian. I also don't see why Tibet and Ladakh qualify. On the flipside, if Tuva is to be included (presumably on an ethnic basis) then so should the Altai Republic and perhaps some other regions in the southern Russian Federation.

So in other words, on what basis are we including some regions and excluding others? My feeling is that since there is a consensus on what is "core" CA (i.e. Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan), the Wiki project should expand as appropriate from there, on the basis of the geographic and ethnic qualities of surrounding areas.

Thoughts? -- Hux 18:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem here is that what Central Asia is is disputed and unclear, even according to the article on it on wiki. I was personally interested in applying the broadest definition, which is the UNESCO Cultural Heritage one on the Central Asia page linked to above, which was why I was open to including those other regions. Aelfthrytha 18:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Second thought: Would anyone be interested in carrying on this discussion on in IRC, MSN, or a real-time interface that would be more efficient and allow everyone to have a 'conversation' about the subject? Aelfthrytha 18:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm in #linguistics and #wikipedia on FreeNode as spectei. - FrancisTyers · 18:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, interesting points. I think one aspect that is important is language. Clearly, Turkic and Iranian languages and a relatively linked history are what define Central Asia. the peripheral areas are just that peripheral. Now you take the languages spoken in the core Central Asian states and you include the areas that these languages correspond to and you have a good definition of Central Asia. Tibet's inclusion and others like it become problematic as a result however. Although I personally have no problem with a greater Central Asia and since this is a wikiproject and not an article a larger scope may not be that much of a big deal anyway. Tombseye 18:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This was also in my mind - if we have a bit of an unclear scope, that could be fine, especially considering that these areas are all quite neglected and would benefit from just about any attention. Aelfthrytha 18:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, and the border areas are tough to define anyway. Due to political inclusion in China, Tibet is often considered broadly 'East Asian' and their language is even closely related to Chinese ,Sino-Tibetan, but there is geographic proximity to consider then. Where do we draw the lines in terms of regions is a tough question. I think we can go with a broad scope and, as you say, shed some attention upon neglected articles. Tombseye 18:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * For history related articles even the definition by UNESCO is sometimes too small. Descriptions of the wanderings of nomadic peoples from east to west should follow their whole way across the steppe-belt ranging from Manchuria up to Hungary. A description can neither be stopped at some pre-defined border in the east nor at some artificial point in the west. So for certain historical moments northern China should be considered part of Central Asian history (Rouran, Xianbei, Mongols, Manchus). The same goes for the Pontic-Caspian Lowlands (Scythia, Alans) or even the Hungarian Basin. So in some specific historical cases I would follow Denis Sinor, who wrote a concise introduction The concept of Inner Asia as first chapter of his Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia. Guss2 18:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * So has it been decided whether to use the UNESCO definition or not? --Stacey Doljack Borsody 03:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

template
How does this look for starters? Template:WikiProject Central Asia --Chris 04:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks good Chris. I was wondering if the Scythian archers image could be replaced with something that can be recognised without zooming in. I know it's also used in the Central Asia stub template, but it would be great to have something that's atleast not blurred. Will try to suggest something. deeptrivia (talk) 06:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * For starters, looks great. I'm really relieved someone else grabbed that job because I don't know how to do it! :) But I agree, the picture probably would be better off replaced for something unblurred. Aelfthrytha 13:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Georgia
Hey all, this isn't exactly related, but there is a poll going down at Talk:Georgia (country), it would be great to have your input. - FrancisTyers · 17:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Boy that is a tough call. On the one hand Georgia as a country is important, but since the American state has such a high degree of notriety, it's hard to say. A disambiguation page seems like the neutral way to go, but both arguments have their merits. Tombseye 18:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
I know this is the second spam of the day, but at least this one is kind of related :) Could interested parties take a look at Tajik alphabet and give ideas on the talk page, or at the peer review page for how it can be improved? Many thanks - FrancisTyers · 18:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Udmurts?
The article on Udmurts says nothing about them living in Central Asia, so it's not clear why Udmurt language is in the list here. Perhaps some information is missing in Udmurts and should be added, or the inclusion of Udmurt language here is an error?--Imz 18:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ummm...yes! Sorry, putting in all the languages I must have gone a little loopy. I'm removing it. Aelfthrytha 18:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Project page structure
I took a risk to structure the project page a bit. Any remarks will be appreciated. RamBow 20:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks great, thanks! Can you help look for more articles to put on the to-do section? Aelfthrytha 21:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Lake Balkhash
Hey hey! Excellent program you have going on here. I just thought I'd stop in and recommend you add Lake Balkhash to your project. It is also part of the WP:LAKES, and I would love to see someone with experience in the REGION add some more details. Of particular interest might be the Sino-Russian treaty that directly involves the lake. Anyhoo ... keep up the good work folks! Em3rald 00:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Pakol / Pakul
These two articles (Pakol and Pakul) probably should be merged. I've put a merge suggestion on the pages, but could people weigh in regarding preferred spelling? Aelfthrytha 03:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Photos
Regarding, "Making contact with people currently in Central Asian countries to request use of their photographs or to request that they take photographs for us." I'd just like to point out that I live in Bishkek and am open to photo requests. I also have a photo album and would be happy to contribute anything relevant under the GFDL license. :) -- Hux 20:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Grammar problems section
i would appreciate it if someone created a grammer problems section. that way i could find those articles easily and corret the mistakes in them, so that they look more professional. thanks in advance.Iranian Patriot 16:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Would you also be interested in wikifying articles? Usually I grab and correct the ones with grammar problems because my English is pretty good, but I don't like to wikify. Aelfthrytha 23:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * what is "wikify". im still kind of new to this whole wikipedia thing.Iranian Patriot 15:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * To wikify an article is to make it fit into the general Wikipedia scheme. A wikified article has correct grammar and spelling, conforms with the Wikipedia Manual of Style, provides sufficient context to be useful to someone with no background in the topic, provides links to related articles (and is linked to by related articles), uses Wiki-style markup (e.g. '&#39;italics&#39;') rather than supported-but-not-ideal HTML-style markup (e.g. &lt;i>italics&lt;/i>), belongs to relevant categories, etc. Ruakh 15:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Stub Proposals
After collecting all the stubs related to Central Asia, tagging them CAsia-stub and counting up, I've just proposed a boatload of new stubs that will hopefully help to better organize our project here. Here's a link to my proposal so the rest can see and comment: Central Asia Stub Proposal. Aelfthrytha 04:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Vacation
From today until 5 or 6 August I'll be on vacation, so don't look for me around here! :D Aelfthrytha 16:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity of participants
When i look at the ist of participants i see that majority are from Iran and have Persian nicknames. Central Asia is populated mostly by Turkic people and irani nationalists have an ideal of making the region a part of greater iran. i think the persian majority of participants will affect the neutrality of the project in a negative way, more Turkic participants are requiered. Irani people are minority in the region but are majority in the project, this is unacceptable for Turkic people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.104.146.79 (talk • contribs).


 * excuse me anon user, but i was asked to join this project. and for your information, much of the history of central asia is iranic and has to do with iran. and also, afghanistan and tajikistan are still part of central asia.Iranian Patriot 15:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Welcome to Wikipedia! Everyone's goal here is neutrality, meaning that everyone strives to represent all points of view fairly. If you believe that a specific user is attempting to edit articles in accordance with a Persian/Iranian nationalist political agenda (e.g. giving undue emphasis in a regional article to Persian/Iranian portions of the region's history and population), then you should bring it up on the relevant article's talk-page and/or the relevant user's talk-page; but broad, biased statements such as yours have little place on Wikipedia and will not win you any supporters. — Ruakh (not a Persian/Iranian, BTW) 16:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * How can someone seriously(?) write down such a biased judgement (unacceptable for Turkic people) simply on a list of volunteers? Guss2 18:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The argument put forward by the person above who was unwilling to sign their name is not only flat out wrong on its face (a majority of the listed participants do not have Iranian/Persian names or nicknames - learn to count), it has no place on Wikipedia. If you believe that an article is biased then feel free to edit it to conform with a neutral point of view. But you have no right to cast aspersions on participants simply because of their nicknames and to make assumptions as to their political motives as a result. That's pure bigotry. -- Hux 19:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I am a Turkic, but even Bantu has a right to edit this artice. abdulnr 23:43, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Scope: Manchuria
I think we should add Manchuria to this project. Then I'd like to participate, since my scope of interests lies from Mongolia to Manchuria. One supportive fact is that the Central Asiatic Journal covers the region. --Nanshu 22:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know exactly where I'd draw the line between Central Asia and East Asia, but it seems to me that it would definitely be west of Manchuria. (Geographically speaking, at least; I don't know enough about its people and culture to speak in that regard.) Ruakh 01:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That's an expected reaction. And that's why I referred to the Central Asiatic Journal.

Hmm. I was invited by Aelfthrytha, but looks like I'm not really welcome here. Maybe Manchuria needs its own Wikiproject. --Nanshu 21:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the page you linked to says fairly explicitly that Manchuria itself is not part of Central Asia; it says it's included "on the basis of [its] relations with the Central Asian region." Still, just because WikiProject Central Asia doesn't cover Manchuria, that doesn't mean you&#39;re not welcome here; I'm sorry if I gave that impression. And I definitely think there should be some sort of WikiProject East Asia Minus China and Japan (only better named). Ruakh 22:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What about a WikiProject Siberia or Northern Asia. That would cover Manchuria and the marginal Russian republics.  That region seems to have some common features, like inhabitants who speak Tungusic, Northern Turkic, and Paleosiberian languages. Straughn 14:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Manchuria may not be part of the most common definition of Central asia (even Mongolia is not always included). But geographically, significant parts of it belong to the central asian steppe belt. Consequently that area shared the same nomadic culture in the past, and to a lesser degre probably still today. I don't see why this project here needs to be very restrictive about such definitions. We should bundle our efforts, not segment them. --Latebird 12:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not feel offended. It's still difficult for me to express exact nuances in the second language.
 * I'm not interested in the Persian-Turkic/Islamic world and I realized that you guys do not want to deal with Mongol-Manchu people/culture here. There is no reason to be in the same project. Maybe Wikiproject:North Asia is the right place. --Nanshu 12:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not true of all of us-like Latebird, I am open as to the scope of the project. Chris 00:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Tsarist Rule in Central Asia
This is what I work on. If you think I could be useful I'd be happy to help. Sikandarji 16:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Pictures from Afghanistan
Hi, I've uploaded around three or four dozen pictures from Kabul and Afghanistan. I've got at least 400 more, but I don't really have adequate access to internet because I'm in Afghanistan and because of the speed limits, I can't update or edit them into pages. Can anyone volunteer to at least place the uploaded pictures? Casimiri 12:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Picture for the Project
I think the picture for the project needs to be changed.


 * 1) It is a demographic map and is seriously outdated for instances in the case of showing the number of Uzbeks in Tajiks in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan and the number of Germans and Russians overall.
 * 2) It does not include all the areas that Central Asia encompasses.
 * 3) It's too old. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Casimiri (talk &bull; contribs) 12:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC).


 * I propose we use the famous National Geographic photograph of Sharbat Gula, the mysterious "Afghan Girl," as the logo of WikiProject Central Asia instead as it best represents the exoticness of the region. I also wouldn't be opposed to use this image of a native Turkmen man with his dromedary camel: Image:Turkmen man with camel.jpg -- Clevelander 01:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hm, I do like the Sharbat Gula picture very much and the other one is good, too, but I think we should avoid any hint of orientalism... Plus, then we'd have to start definfing defining Central Asia over and against South Asia as a region. There might be a better solution (although I can't think of anything as stunning as Sharbat Gula). -- Mabuse 01:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I too will admit that is a great picture, I had a bad crush on her when I was 15 and that issue came out. ;) My concern is that it focuses on a single group, whereas there are dozens of ethnicities in the region. Where first I had used the Scythian artwork, it was because it was a vanished culture and would not smack of partiality, and the redone map showed the geographic scope, again without partiality, I don't want her image to cause anyone in the area to feel the project somehow does not represent them, that's all. Chris 02:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the Sharbat Gula picture is stunning and a marvel in photography. However, we have to look back and see what it really represents or rather what the photographer wanted it to represent - the plight of Afghan refugees in Pakistan (I'd be more than happy to have it if I go against the spirit of wikipedia because I'm from Afghanistan and lived in some of those tents in Pakistan myself). Then there are other points, most notably she's not a significant Central Asian in terms of its history. And she's married with four kids and weighs 250 pounds (So much for Kentetsu's crush ;-)) It's the same story if we talk about other regions, like we can't find a single person to put there to define Europe as a whole. I'd propose a solution similar to that of the Euro. Instead of trying to find a person, let's try and find a place. I'm sure there'll be a lot of people that will be upset even if we choose a picture, but you can never satisfy everyone. Let's satisfy as many as we can. Casimiri 06:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Europe has a lot of really famous landmarks that anyone would recognize, at least to the point of identifying the country or general region: Big Ben, Stonehenge, the Eiffel Tower, the Tower of Pisa, Neuschwanstein (not that people know its name), Saint Basil's Cathedral, and so on. Not so with Central Asia; I think it's better, therefore, to go with a face that a lot of people recognize, a face made famous twice (!) by the U.S.'s National Geographic magazine. Ruakh 12:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The use of Sharbat Gula.png as "the symbol for WikiProject Central Asia" raises a serious legal issue. That image is copyrighted, and used on Wikipedia as fair use. According to the licensing box, fair use is limited "to illustrate the publication of the issue of the magazine in question, with the publication name either visible on the image itself or written in the image description." General use in Wikiproject Central Asia is likely a copyright violation. -- I like the picture too, but you're going to have to pick a new image, or get explicit permission from the copyright holder for it's continued use. - Tmhand 14:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Darn, you're right. Ruakh 15:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Instead of landmarks or faces, how about some Central Asian art work? For example, Bukhahran carpet design or a stylized detail from the abstract calligraphy and mosaics of the tilework in the Registan of Samarkand or a Bukhara madrasah - there must be something like that in the public domain? -- Mabuse 16:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)



I think it's a bit too small. How about this?: Image:Bibi Khonym Mosque.jpg -- Clevelander 14:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. Anything with those beautiful blue domed roofs :) - FrancisTyers · 15:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

- one more proposal Jsx 10:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Aşgabat
A member of the Tajik Wikipedia, tg:User:Ibrahim kindly allowed some of his photos from Aşgabat to be uploaded under the GFDL. See the commons category, here. - FrancisTyers · 15:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Districts of Afghanistan
I have been working on creating some of the Districts of Afghanistan. There are 398 districts, and only 60ish have articles, so it'll take a while. I'd appreciate any input on naming conventions - see Category talk:Districts of Afghanistan.

There is a huge amount of info available at the Afghanistan Information Management Service. Does this project need a separate page listing sources? --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 09:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems like that couldn't hurt. Aelfthrytha 22:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Article Improvement Drive
A while ago it was suggested that we coordinate our efforts as a group by taking a poll about which articles or topics to focus attention on. On the main page, there are plenty of options for projects. The suggestion I would make would be to focus on Turkmenistan for a while (month? week? other time period?) because the least information of any of these countries is available on it. Opinions? Aelfthrytha 01:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Central Asian Studies
I've created a category for Central Asian Studies. It's mostly links to articles on scholars in the field. Would people be okay if requested articles for Central Asian Studies were added to the WikiProject Central Asia page? There are a number of notable researchers and authors of important works on Central Asia that have yet to be added to Wikipedia. I'm interested in anyone’s feed back. --David Straub 02:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why not? I say go for it. Aelfthrytha 03:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Help to identify the historical rock carving
Anybody can read tibetan letters? I need some help to identify buddhist rock carvings near Ili river. More pictures of the inscriptions are available. Jsx 10:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I Wish to Contribute Articles
I wish to work on and contribute to articles regarding historical tribes, khaganates, and individuals, in the Central Asian area up through the Ming Dynasty China era. I am a relatively inexperienced wikipediast, but a moderately experienced editor (editor for Korea of the Journal of Asian Studies in the late 1960's). I spent three years teaching as a faculty member in the then Department of Uralic and Altaic Studies at Indiana University. While my doctorate is in Korean Studies, I have a good background in Classical Chinese and Japanese as well as Korean and have studied some Khalkha Mongolian (many years ago) and dabbled in the East Turkic of the Orkhon and Yenisei inscriptions. Years ago I developed a special interest in the Uygurs while studying and tracing the lineage of a Uygur family (偰氏)that had been influential in the Yuan Court 元朝 and subsequently in the Goryeo and Choseon Courts 高麗朝 & 朝鮮朝 in Korea. I am semi-retired, still teaching three days a week and have some physical challenges, but wish to participate in this project contributing articles on the Xianbei, Ruan-ruan, Hepthalites, Kokturkut, Uygur, (tribes, khaganates, etc. I read Cyrillic and have some German, Russian, Spanish, Latin, etc., in addition to Korean, Japanese, and Chinese.  Doc Rock 19:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Doc Rock, you're ten times as qualified as any of us. You'd be a real asset for wikipedia. Please edit, create any articles you want and we will try and assist you. --David Straub 19:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Deletion sorting
Hello,

I just wanted to let you know about various deletion lists maintained by the deletion sorting WikiProject. Not all countries in Central Asia have their own pages, but you might want to keep an eye on WikiProject Deletion sorting/Afghanistan, WikiProject Deletion sorting/Tajikistan, and WikiProject Deletion sorting/Kazakhstan. You can monitor these pages to see if there are any current AfD debates related to those countries. (Afghanistan has been especially active).

The Deletion Sorting WikiProject is currently in a state of flux; if you are interested in making it better, please visit the discussion page. Cheers, -- Visviva 09:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Dzungar or Zunghar?
We have Dzungaria and Dzungar people but Zunghar Khanate. It would be nice to reconcile the various spellings into something consistent. Are there any established spelling conventions in Wikipedia that would determine which spelling is preferred? Bertport (talk) 15:33, 13 January 2011 (UTC)