Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China/Chinese-language entertainment/Archive 2

Archive
The previous WikiProject Chinese modern music / Chinese-language entertainment discussion page has been archived. Feel free to start discussions again below.

Userbox
The userbox is still pointing to the old project name. Is it just a move? Benjwong (talk) 05:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've only moved things, but the userbox's link should work properly (now?). And if you do happen to find other broken or misdirected links in the future, it would be really helpful if you (or anyone) would fix them. =) Skyezx  08:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Categories
I've been looking around, but I still haven't figured out how to rename categories (i.e. Category:WikiProject_Modern_Chinese_music to Category:WikiProject_Chinese-language_entertainment). If someone could figure that out, it'd be awesome. Here are some pages to get started: FAQ/Categorization, Categories for discussion, Naming conventions (categories). Skyezx (talk) 20:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I put in a request here. I also put up a speedy tag on Category:WikiProject_Modern_Chinese_music. I have not moved categories before.  This is new for me. So I am going by the instructions. Benjwong (talk) 03:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The above request was completed. I have put in another request here to move Category:WikiProject Modern Chinese music participants to Category:WikiProject Chinese-language entertainment participants. Benjwong (talk) 02:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And Category:WikiProject Modern Chinese music articles should be changed to Category:WikiProject Chinese-language entertainment articles. I thought at first changing the category would change the subcategories as well. Heh. I'll put in the request. Skyezx  (talk) 04:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Move/rename Vanness Wu
Hello! I'd like to move Vanness Wu to "Van Ness Wu," as this is how his name is spelled on all official sites. Discussion/objections? Thanks!! --Hamuhamu (talk) 05:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * According to his profile on Sony Music, it's Vanness. Also, in searches, like Google News, the name that comes up most often is Vanness. I reckon that Van-ness is split up just for branding purposes. I would leave it as it is (re: WP:UCN ).  Skyezx  (talk) 06:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I do see that. I'm confused because his official site and official blog splits it up.  On Kangta & Vanness official site it's "Vanness," though that was created by a Korean company (SM Entertainment) who may have wanted it to "match" Kangta's name.  I get enormous amounts of hits for "Van Ness Wu" on Google.  This is confusing! :) --Hamuhamu (talk) 07:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How about a redirect so everyone is happy? Dengero (talk) 07:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * D'oh. Of course. Splendid proposition. Skyezx  (talk) 08:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You people are too brainy. See, that's why I ask these things. =D --Hamuhamu (talk) 09:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Article tag
I was trying to tag an article when I realize the tag is. The template name is Template:CEnt but you cannot actually use the tag WP:CENT since it goes to "Wikipedia:Centralized discussion". Shouldn't we try to come up with a new tag? This is quite confusing. Benjwong (talk) 01:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I Concur. I've been trying to tag a few articles myself. How about....WPCLE? Chinese Language Entertainment.....Dengero (talk) 02:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That works for me. Let's see if others have comments. I haven't tagged any article yet.  I also just signed up for AutoWikiBrowser (AWB).  Do you think this will help with the tag changes?  Benjwong (talk) 02:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would've signed up for AW ages ago but....I have no idea how to even remotely use it....TW seems so much easier and simpler for me haha. Tell me if AW is really useful once you use it for a bit ^^ Dengero (talk) 02:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * We'll see how it goes. Anyways this vote was to see if people are ok with the "WPCLE" tag. heh  Benjwong (talk) 02:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

works fine (re:Talk:Ron Ng). Though yeah... CEnt is easily confused with WP:CENT. I don't know. I'm neutral on the matter. I also looked at AWB, but it looks so confusing... and I don't have enough edits to qualify. haha. Skyezx (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * CEnt is hard to write compared to CENT. Better to change the letters due to confusion anyway. Dengero (talk) 04:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, okay. CEnt is appearing more and more awkward. I support this change. Skyezx  (talk) 04:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok so what is the new tag? Benjwong (talk) 23:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As suggested earlier, WPCLE? or CLE? Skyezx  (talk) 00:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I prefer "WPCLE" it is then. Benjwong (talk) 04:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

So it it WPCLE now? Should we update the front page? Dengero (talk) 01:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. It is created now. You can tag  from now on. Benjwong (talk) 06:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I updated the template & info on the template page from CEnt to WPCLE. If anyone wants to take a look and make sure I didn't foul it up, please do so! -- Hamuhamu (talk) 04:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You did fine. =) Skyezx  (talk) 07:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

banner
I was thinking of putting "Album" class on some of the album articles, and letting WP:ALBUMS assess it, but then some albums eventually do become FAs, so I'm just wondering what you guys think. Same thing with "(Record) Label" class.

Also, we're probably going to have to devise new assessing criteria, cause a lot of the High-Mid-Low's were based solely on singing, and not acting (which is why Jackie Chan is Mid/Low, and not High. I mean, under WP:CLE, he's definitely a High.) Pandacomics (talk) 15:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Albums and discographies really belong to WP:album and WP:discography. Even if it was released in Chinese language, the company that owns it may be a UK subsidiary.  I would leave it.


 * About the ratings, unless we can find someone to rate all the articles, we will just slowly rate whatever we are working on. Yes Jackie Chan is high.   Benjwong (talk) 23:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Browser problem?
Can someone go to the teresa Carpio page and see whether the first name is in capital or lower case? My browser is saying teresa is in lower case. When I try to move the article to upper case name, it said it is identical. But it is not?! Benjwong (talk) 04:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks lower-case to me! I'm a n00b so I have no advice on what techno-whatsitz is going on to cause the issue.  I'm using the newest version of Firefox, if that helps. --Hamuhamu (talk) 05:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not just you, it appears as lower case for me too. The URL is already http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Carpio so there shouldn't be anything wrong with the title. But it's really weird how it's different in the article name. Is it a bug? o_O Oh, and it's not a browser problem. I've tried it in FF, IE, Opera and Safari. lol Skyezx (talk) 05:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's because there was a tag. I've fixed it. Pandacomics (talk) 02:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Daniel Wu review
Since this place seems active and users are good about responding to queries, I'll ask: would anyone mind looking over an article I expanded on Daniel Wu? I'm new to editing Wikipedia and it's been years since I really did any writing, and I'd really like more experienced eyes to look at it. It hasn't been assessed since it was a stub. I'm particularly wondering about tense shifts. No big hurry! Thanks for your consideration! --Hamuhamu (talk) 05:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks perfect fine. Well done. Dengero (talk) 01:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks pretty good. Benjwong (talk) 06:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, guys. Just wanted to know if I was on the right track! -- Hamuhamu (talk) 07:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good. One additional thing you can do however, is to convert his filmography into tables (or split it off to a separate page if you feel it's too long and then convert to tables). Oh, and internal links (Wikipedia links) to his movies would be nice too. Skyezx  (talk) 07:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your copyediting! At the Filmmakers & Actors WP they're still arguing over filmography table vs no table, but if you think a table would be an improvement, I will plan to include one as my standard practice.  I think they look pretty nifty.  His movies are wikilinked in the existing filmography section...I hope! :)  Thanks again, all of you, for your time.  I now feel ready to expand some other articles. -- Hamuhamu (talk) 14:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * While there are concerns, I think the general consensus there is that tables are an improvement over bulleted lists. All the FA's I've looked at have their filmography in tables... so while a bulleted lists are okay for short lists and developing articles, eventually, they should be converted into tables. That's my understanding anyway. Skyezx  (talk) 21:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

AWB on talkpages?
I am trying to mass move with AWB so that any article currently tagged with {{CEnt and {{Cpop will move to {{WPCLE. Notice how I didn't close the brackets because some have different fields to follow. AWB does not seem to let me edit on the talk pages? Anyone know how to make this simple? Or does someone want to run down the list? Benjwong (talk) 06:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This part worked. Please ignore. Benjwong (talk) 13:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

External links, reliable sources, etc.
Do you guys think it may be necessary to revise the external links and reliable sources blurb on the project's main page? Sites like http://tvb.windy-goddess.net/?page_id=2 and http://virtuesofharmony.net/blog/?page_id=2, while entertaining, are run by fans/undergrads and seem a lot like blogs/personal web pages. Official blogs like http://blog.tvb.com/raymondlam/ are undoubtedly acceptable, but I'm kinda iffy on those previously mentioned. What do you guys think? And what other examples are there of acceptable sites? I guess it's not a big deal until we promote articles to GA or FA. Skyezx (talk) 08:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've read through tvb.windy-godess.net a few times, it gives quite a comprehensive review, and the fact that it's not for every series makes the quality high. I have long accepted it as the only "external" thing other than the blog and the actual page. As for virtue and other forums such as asianfanatics/asianeu, I dont think so. Dengero (talk) 13:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have a related question on reliable sources for translations. I don't read Chinese and I'm running into a brick wall with some performers, unable to find enough English primary sources to put together anything decent.  Wikipedia's guidelines for using translated materials seems very strict, which is understandable but very limiting.  I occasionally find blogs that specialize in news article translation, but in terms of more personal info used to flesh out a biographical article -- I usually find those translations (of artist interviews and such) done by fans on very fannish sites like asianfanatics, soompi, livejournal.  No clue how to handle this.  I also don't know how to deal with articles that are archived either by the original news source (the newspaper's web site, requiring a fee to view) or by a service like archivemylibrary.com.  Woe is me.  Thanks for any suggestions or guidance! -- Hamuhamu (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * We usually arn't too bothered about references unless it's really controvertial. Plus, if it isn't controvertial, it wont attract any international coverage (unlike the thing with edison). So generally we accept stuff written in the articles as good faith, and they usually are. Translated news is a definate nono, because personally I'm also a translater in one of those fan sites. I sometimes lose quite a bit of meaning from the original piece of news. So in all, to answer your question, that is also why our english wikipedia articles on local artists are so deficient. But nothing can be done, we can only just maintain with what we have. We are the only few ones to safeguard these articles. Feel proud =) Dengero (talk) 04:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ideally everything should be referenced. Whether we can find enough people to help reference is a different story. Benjwong (talk) 13:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. We should have sources whenever possible - in case the material are challenged (re: All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable, published source.WP:CITE). Finding them is difficult though... Skyezx (talk) 07:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Red packet pictures
Those red packet pictures for articles like Roger Kwok are all deleted?? Anyone noticed? Benjwong (talk) 18:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they said even though I took the pictures, it doesn't mean the copyright is mine. Therefore they deleted them ><" Dengero (talk) 03:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Source question
Was doing some online research and ran across this story on CRI English, which I thought was a legit source. It says "Asianfanatics.net" and "Source: World Journal." I...don't get it. Can anyone help sort this out for me? Thanks! --Hamuhamu (talk) 21:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It basically means they were too lazy to make an article on Vanness themselves, so they copied and pasted from Asianfanatics.net, while remembering to actually credit the writer. And of course, anything from Asianfanatics is uncredible. So no to WP:V. Pandacomics (talk) 00:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Serious? A news agency gets stories from fan forums?  >_<  UGH.  Do they not realize how freaking hard it is to find this kind of stuff in English?  *sporks them*  Thanks for your input!  --Hamuhamu (talk) 01:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * They don't always get stuff from fan forums. There are a lot of articles on CRI English that are original content, but it's a good thing you did pick up on the Asianfanatics.net thing, regardless. (Side note: the "World Journal" thing refers to stephanieshieh getting the info from World Journal. CRI then copied off stephanieshieh's translation.) Pandacomics (talk) 01:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So stephanieshieh is the screen name of the person who translated the article and (I assume) posted it at Asianfanatics forum. This gives me many LOLZ. -- Hamuhamu (talk) 01:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * stephanieshieh is a user that's somewhat known in the Internet C-pop sharing community. She shares music on multiple music sharing forums and also helps translate articles related to the Chinese entertainment industry. Arsonal (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's nice of her. Does she have a formal blog or website, just for her translations?  Something like that would, I think, approach credibility for sourcing, versus things posted and reposted ad nauseum on fan forums. Also, do you know if she translates word-for-word or if she just summarizes?  Thanks - Hamuhamu (talk) 22:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * She translates, but I don't think she'd reach credibility for sourcing, regardless. There's only so much credibility a 20-year-old Asian female can have by posting up translated news on forums that aren't even notable enough for Wikipedia. And things do get posted and reposted ad nauseum on forums. That's what we call "too lazy to translate news yourself". Pandacomics (talk) 00:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, so she's the one actually posting them in forums? (As opposed to having a site or blog dedicated to quality translation, the contents of which get snagged by others and posted to fan forums.)  That sucks.  I was hoping it might be something that "approaches" credible, with links back to the original articles and such.  *sigh*  I don't think a last.fm site is gonna do it...LOL! - Hamuhamu (talk) 02:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * O I'm shocked too!!! AND they say all the copyright is thier's at the bottom! Shameless sites these days..... Dengero (talk) 01:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I recently came across WP:RSUE, where it states that if there are no English sources available, it's okay to use other-language sources, as long as these sources are still considered reliable sources. So that means, we can translate the articles ourselves, making sure we quote the appropriate source that other editors can check for factuality (or appropriate translation) should there be doubt. In these cases, then forums like asianfanatics and asianeu may serve a purpose. If their source is an appropriate reliable source, then we can use that. In the Vanness case, if we have access to World Journals (via a public library maybe? I can't find them online), we can look up the approximate date of the article and find our source there. Do you guys see what I'm getting at? Skyezx  (talk) 07:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As for World Journals, I found a worldjournal.com in Chinese. Other than that, no clue!  Regarding translations in general, I've found lots of them on translation blogs, livejournal, AF.com, soompi, etc; problem is I have no idea how reliable they are, and often the original article is old enough that it's archived by the originator and is now offline or pay-per-view.  (And of course there are always the translators that credit the place where they found the original article instead of the article's actual source, the logic of which just kills me. I've seen articles & pics credited to "naver" or "google").  I guess each translation would just need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, using common sense and good faith?  Seems there are also some resources to request translations on WP, as well. --Hamuhamu (talk) 07:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * ...you know, you could have just taken a look at Jay Chou, S.H.E and Jane Zhang. The vast majority of sources on there are non-English. Pandacomics (talk) 14:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean. I don't read Chinese, so finding reliable translations is important. =) --Hamuhamu (talk) 19:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I was referring to Skyezx's comment about wikipedia and non-English sources. Asianfanatics and many other forums rarely, if ever, link back to the original article. Pandacomics (talk) 19:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah gotcha! Yeah, it's so frustrating! --Hamuhamu (talk) 19:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I realize that they don't always provide a direct link, but what I meant was, to look at the source(e.g. World Journal) and the date (approximately) it was translated, and use that information to find the original source ourselves. I just personally find it easier to read English than Chinese. Not that I can't, it's just easier reading walls of text in English than in Chinese(the latter makes my eyes bleed T_T). And yeah... the Jay Chou, S.H.E. articles were what made me look up the policy. Skyezx  (talk) 22:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Taiwan expert?
Is Kenji Wu really not considered a mandopop singer? Benjwong (talk) 06:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know who told you this, but he's definitely a Mandopop singer. If you sing in Mandarin... Pandacomics (talk) 14:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess you can pick on the word pop in mandopop if you're really picky.....Dengero (talk) 02:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I was going to fix the article template but the word "mandarin" and "mandopop" didn't show up once on his article? I didn't know his music style was considered something different by taiwan standards. Ok nevermind. Benjwong (talk) 03:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Album releases in China
Anyone know how to get info about album releases in China? Thanks~ -- hamu♥hamu ( talk ) 12:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you mean mainland China albums only or just regular c-pop in general? They go more by mp3s as the preferred media in mainland. Others are welcome to correct me if I am wrong on this. Try yesasia.com mainland link in english for album releases. Other starter sites include mp3.baidu top100 links or top100cn.  There are too many to be honest and is really scattered. Benjwong (talk) 00:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I was referring to mainland -- sorry for my lack of clarity! I've never seen mainland releases on YesAsia before, but I'll definitely take a look at the link your provided in case the China portal yields different results than the US portal I used.  This came up when I was expanding Scandal and found someone had previously listed a date for its release in mainland China.  I couldn't find a mainland release on YesAsia (I included out-of-stock items).  When you mention mp3s as a preferred medium, do you mean a lot of songs/albums are released as legal, paid downloads only?  Interesting!  Thanks a lot for the resources! -- hamu♥hamu  ( talk ) 00:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe others can answer you better. My understanding is that it isn't straight forward.  It depends on whose album it is. They might appear to mainland audience exclusively.  Or they might be released in HK and Taiwan first, and just release nothing in mainland but online mp3s. Benjwong (talk) 05:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Quick romanization request
Hello! Could anyone provide a romanization of the name 欧陽菲菲 for me? She is a Taiwanese singer who had a hit called "Love is Over" 24 years ago, and she was the first (and until recently, only) foreign Asian artist to have two #1 singles on the Oricon weekly charts. Thanks so much! -- hamu♥hamu ( TALK ) 19:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ouyang Feifei. I originally thought you wrote that she was the only foreign Asian artist to hit #1, and my first thought was, "What about BoA?" But then I read "24 years ago". Pandacomics (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much! Surprisingly, BoA's only had one #1 on the weekly singles chart.  She's had a slew of #1 albums, though! -- hamu♥hamu  ( TALK ) 21:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Remember to use trad chinese since she's a taiwanese singer ^^ Dengero (talk) 00:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Great point -- I'll have to ask for some help there. The name I provided came from a Japanese news article.  Can anyone help? -- hamu♥hamu  ( TALK ) 01:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 歐陽菲菲. You can always try babelfish or convertz :P Dengero (talk) 10:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much! I don't have enough background to know if what babelfish spits out is accurate.  Their translations are barely comprehensible, at best. :) -- hamu♥hamu  ( TALK ) 11:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Manhua project
Hello all! I've been working as part of WikiProject Comics to get their "World Comics" working group off the ground. We've been revamping categories and trying to pave the way for coordinated work on non-American, non-European comics, which don't seem to receive a lot of attention in their "regional" WikiProjects. My focus has been on getting some infrastructure in place for Korean and Chinese-language comics, and we're making progress. If you have any interest in manhua or know an editor who does, or just want to see what we're up to, feel free to venture over and take a look. A lot of the action is on the talk page right now, hashing out logistics, and we'd value your perspectives on any aspect of the project. (One day I'll get back to my Chinese actors work!) -- hamu♥hamu ( TALK ) 00:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

GAing
I am trying to GA the Anita Mui article. I just realised we have no rule on what to do with tables. Do I have to create a discography page after X number of albums? Also would that basically mean I can just dump the albums and movies into the discography/filmography page? Has anyone tried GAing that Daniel Wu page? I looked at the Jay Chou page. In comparison I know I cannot write that many paragraphs about Anita Mui albums. Benjwong (talk) 06:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Daniel Wu was the first article I ever worked on, and I kind of ran into a brick wall after awhile because of my (lack of) language skills. I'd like to see it further improved.  I know there's a lot more info out there.  BTW, would someone look at the romanizations in the article?  I just had to go with what I was given and hope they were right. :)


 * As for Anita Mui, from what I've seen discussed in other projects, I would say a filmography and a discography page would not be a bad idea (they're both long enough for their own, I'm sure), and just list some of her more notable films/albums in the main article, ultimately with all the discussion stuff. Part of what makes Jay Chou's music section  so long is the considerable space taken up by inclusion of traditional Chinese and simplified Chinese titles, with the descriptive labels, for each mentioned song (appropriate, but space-eating).  You can also put public response/review type stuff in that area too, which requires more research but less musical analysis, in case you're like me and fail totally at the latter. -- hamu♥hamu  ( TALK ) 09:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

infobox issue
Someone has been going around adding the "Canto name suffix" to a lot of artists. Should we keep the CNS in any form (bolded part of lead, birth name, etc.) or should we just do away with it, and put the Cantonese name as the birth name?

Example: Andy Lau. Do we place his infobox name as just Andy Lau, or Andy Lau Tak-Wah? If the former, do we place "Lau Tak-wah" as his birth name then? Pandacomics (talk) 02:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Leave it as First and Last name. Becuase thier CNS is not strictly their middle name like, "Jessica Hester Huan" is "Hsuan Huen". But that isn't her name. errr, if that sorta made it clear haha. So their chinese name is given, then the jyuping and pinyin is given, then their english name is treated separately. CNS shouldn't be applied. But perhaps wait for a third comment. Dengero (talk) 03:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. I think we should just leave it as first name + last name. CNS, followed by jyuping and pinyin is rather redundant because they're so similar. I looked at some Western bios and noticed thats it's also just first and last name on their infoboxes. They don't even include middle names . I don't mind keeping them in the bolded lead section though.  Skyezx  (talk) 05:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Alrighty then. I'll slip that into the CEnt infobox documentation if no one opposes. Pandacomics (talk) 13:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

LHW vs. WLH
And by these six letters, I refer to Mr. Lee-Hom Wang. FrankRizzo has been unilaterally moving things to WLH, but the reason I'm posting this notice here is because it raises an interesting point. Should it be LHW, or WLH?

I'm in favour of LHW because of the following:

"The encyclopedia should reference the name more familiar to most English readers. For most historical figures this means that the encyclopedia entry should reference the Chinese name (romanized in Hanyu pinyin) rather than the English name, with a redirect from the English name. However, there are exceptions for figures whose English name is more familiar (such as Confucius) and for figures who were raised in non-Chinese societies and whose Chinese names are unfamiliar (such as Vera Wang and Maya Lin)." (from WP:CHINA)

Now, Mr. Wang was raised in Rochester, so I'd say he fits the non-Chinese societies rule, but Frankrizzo's point (also valid) is that Asian last names should be listed first (e.g. Wu Chun, Zhao Wei). Like Mr. Wu, "Lee-Hom" isn't exactly an English name, and his birth name, Alexander, is rarely used. At the same time, Lee-Hom isn't a traditional romanization of any kind, so it'd fall under WP:CHINA's "unusual romanizations" rule. Anyway, just wanted to know what you guys thought. (Also, should we move Zhao Wei to Vicky Zhao?) Pandacomics (talk) 17:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think sometimes it becomes a "six of one, half-dozen of the other" situation, where one isn't used overwhelmingly among English-speaking audiences more than the other. There's just so many variables amongst "English speakers" even, and he's likely been presented with different names depending on target audience.  Most people who aren't familiar with Asian name orders are going to look for Mr. Wang as LHW; but one could argue that most people looking him up are familiar with Asian name order and will look for WLH. Is the argument valid?  I have no idea, but the point is as long as you're not using something really obscure and wacky, I think allowing concessions to some editors' preferences and making ample redirects may be the answers, knowing there's no perfect answer b/c readers are just so darn diverse.  (Re: ZW vs VZ, as a non-Chinese-speaking American, I can say I've never heard of her as Zhao Wei.) My 2cents. -- hamu♥hamu  ( TALK ) 01:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * We are so screwed if "Last Name" first thing comes in place. Imagine all those hk+chinese actor article pages we have to move....plus, I've always heard his name as LHW and not WLH. I suggest either he comes here to convince us or if he moves the page again, warn him. Dengero (talk) 06:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:COMMONNAME takes precedence over Chinese ordering. The WP:CHINA policy quoted by Pandacomics supports this. The question then is really only about which is the most common name. In entertainment circles, I think people are more commonly known by (first name, last name) rather than (last name, first name). The reverse would be true for political figures like Mao Zedong and Hu Jintao. Skyezx  (talk) 08:06, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Every article can be treated different. The same person goes by different names depending on what media and country of origin is doing the coverage. Jackie Chan is consistently called Jackie in western media01.  In Chinese regions he is always called "Sing Lung".  Nobody ever say "Chan Sing Lung". We use the most common English name if possible.  Vicki Zhao may be hugely famous in the east.  But she has little coverage in the west.  So her article is ok at Zhao Wei. Benjwong (talk) 18:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is a case-by-case situation, but by your own reasoning, wouldn't Vicki Zhao be the most common English name?  In terms of romanized characters, she's always billed as Vicki Zhao on her movies, not as Zhao Wei.  I don't care personally b/c that's what redirects are for, but WP:COMMONNAME seems to indicate her Western name should be used.  -- hamu♥hamu  ( TALK ) 19:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Is very interesting that you say that. I thought she has little to no coverage in the west. Here is a sample of a NY times coverage that called her Zhao Wei. Benjwong (talk) 00:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm interesting. I have heard of her in a general sense, and have a couple of her movies.  Conversely, I've never read about her in the media but then again I try to ignore the American media.  My vague guess is the New York Times pulled the info on that shirt incident from the Chinese media, in which she was called Zhao Wei.  Just now I looked on Variety, a movie-oriented publication, and at first I was surprised to get a lot more hits for Zhao Wei...then I realized there is a company called Zhao Wei Films which accounts for most of the hits.  It looks like there is more VZ than ZW, but short of sitting down and looking at each article, I couldn't say which is more commonly used.  This sure isn't cut and dry, is it?  No biggie either way to me. :) -- hamu♥hamu  ( TALK ) 00:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You know I think you are right. It is too hard to figure out what to use if we go by the media.  I was just editing the article for Diana Pang, and was thinking the same thing.  It would just be easier to follow WP:COMMONNAME to use her western name. Otherwise am I following her native mandarin pinyin name?  Or cantonese name since her origin is more popular in HK. Well this is very confusing. So if you want Zhao Wei to move to Vicki Zhao, I think I understand what you mean.  Benjwong (talk) 05:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  21:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Adding music to artists pages
I wanna start adding 25 second clips to artists' pages. Anyone teach me how? The billion wiki policies confused me more than finding my solution LOL. Dengero (talk) 12:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Download Audacity
 * Once the program is open, go to File > Open. Pick your song. Make sure your file name has no Chinese characters.
 * Highlight the desired 25 second portion of the song.
 * Click "Trim outside selection".
 * Highlight a bit of the beginning of the 25 seconds. Go to Effect > Fade In
 * Highlight a bit of the end. Go to Effect > Fade Out
 * Go to Project > Align Tracks > Align with Zero
 * Highlight the silent part after the clip. Press Ctrl+K
 * Go to File > Export as Ogg Vorbis.
 * Upload to Wikipedia w/fair use license.
 * Copy the coding for a page that already has sound clips.


 * Pandacomics (talk) 19:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow! That's a really simple and fantastic set of instructions. Should add them somewhere on our project page o.0. Should've came here instead of looking through a million pages XD I tested it with a song from Hins Cheung, mind having at a look? Thank a lot =) Dengero (talk) 07:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me. Pandacomics (talk) 16:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Invitation Template
I want to invite quite a few people to our project, how about we create a invitation template? I would if I knew how to create one =/ anyone? ^^ Dengero (talk) 11:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I would just ask the users. Benjwong (talk) 05:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Inviting someone personally would be ideal, but if you're stuck on what to say or if you're trying to invite a group of people, a template will come in handy... so I went ahead and made a template at . -- Skye zx  (talk)  07:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You-are-the-best. I fixed this little bit at the start lol. Thx! Dengero (talk) 07:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. I was thinking of doing it anyway. =) -- Skye zx  (talk)  07:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Reliable source?
I have used the source http://www.batgwa.com on some minor verification. Does anyone have any objections to using this source? Benjwong (talk) 05:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think Batgwa is fairly reliable, but the non-serious nature of the About Us section on the site makes me hesitant to call it a reliable source. IDK. --  Skye zx  (talk)  07:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You know what they say about Chinese articles...if you can find it on one site, it's probably mirrored on a gazillion others. Pandacomics (talk) 01:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe GA not a good idea
Ok I tried GAing the Anita Mui article and I am not sure I can expand anymore on it. In fact I am not so sure I can expand articles to the length of like Jay Chou articles. Maybe I should just focus on getting articles to B-class/almost GA, and stop at that point. Benjwong (talk) 06:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * How about we make Anita Mui WPCLE's first collaboration project? Is anybody else up for it? To be honest, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Cpop, so my help with content expansion will be limited, but I can help with copyediting and general MOS fixes. -- Skyezx  // msg  09:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm with Skyezx. I mean, hey, it's the closest to GA anyway (and beats reverting blatantly POV edits from all those fangirls out there...-__-). I have a two newspaper clippings of Anita Mui lying around - one of her legacy, and one of her battling cancer. Pandacomics (talk) 12:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help. I am not sure how much more new info the newspaper clippings have, but you can try expanding on it. Right now I would rather get many articles similar to the current state of the Anita mui page, and just leave it at that. It was difficult finding sources that are reliable. Hey Panda I came across your project sandbox. I think it is possible for me to help you get these to a high B-class, but it will take some time.  Benjwong (talk) 18:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Anita Mui     (think I reached my limit)
 * Nicholas Tse  (think I reached my limit)
 * Sammi Cheng   (working on it)
 * Alan Tam
 * Roman Tam
 * Leslie Cheung
 * Jacky Cheung
 * Aaron Kwok
 * Leon Lai
 * Samuel Hui
 * Andy Lau      (not on list?)


 * You can always add a sound clip for the Anita Mui article. Dengero (talk) 10:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Awards
Ok, so I've been working on an FL candidate, but given the convoluted nature of cpop awards (e.g. 2006 Sprite Awards being in January 2007), which year should we list in the table? The year listed in that year's edition (i.e. 2006 Sprite Awards = 2006, despite being held in 2007), or the year that the show actually occurs in (i.e. 2006 Sprite Awards = 2007 because it was held in January 2007)? If you take a look at the List of S.H.E awards, the pro for option #2 is that there's some form of consistency, but you hit an awkward snag when two consecutive editions of the awards ceremony occur within the same calendar year (see RTHK awards section). Personally, I'm all for option #2, but I just want to see what you guys think. Pandacomics (talk) 22:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Award pages of this quality is really aggressive for this project. It looks great, but something like this cannot be done across the board. We simply don't have enough people to go to that detail level. One fast and cheap way to generate awards already in wiki is to see what awards page is linked to the artist like this for example. But when you get to the details of sprite award etc, it is wow... alot. Benjwong (talk) 18:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ben...but, um, the question was would you support option 1 or option 2 for future FLCs in our project? Heh. Heh. >_> Pandacomics (talk) 03:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. I like Option 2.  If award took place in 2007 for the 2006 music season, it should be listed as 2007. Benjwong (talk) 03:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Alan Tam
We have a rather misguided user in our midst, by the name of User:E intelligence. Apparently this is what he calls "removing" bias. I've placed a number of helpers on his talk page, but it seems he still doesn't really get it. Just an article to possibly keep an eye on. (And if you can help him/her out, please do.) Pandacomics (talk) 03:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Be careful not to breach WP:3RR... it looks like he/she has stopped now, but I will watch the page, and if he/she keeps reverting, I will warn and then possibly report the user to an admin if it continues. – Skyezx  // msg  03:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm watching it now. We can take turns! XD Dengero (talk) 07:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup
Currently, 396 articles are assigned to this project, of which 120, or 30.3%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 2008-07-14.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place the following template on your project page:



If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments anyone? Dengero (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dengero, I think you, Skyezx, Ben and I know that this project has a truckload of horrendously biased, rumour-filled articles that are in desperate need of a cleanup. B. Wolterding's offer is appreciated, but a long to-do list of articles would only emphasize that flaw, not to mention make matters quite overwhelming. Pandacomics (talk) 03:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's pretty much it. The majority of our WikiProject's articles require cleanup of some sort - they're just not all tagged. And even if they are tagged, we don't really have a plan of action for them yet. – Skyezx  // msg  07:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Appreciate the project offer, but I think the type of cleaning we need is more like reference checking or adding. This type of marking won't help enough.  We all agree on the status of the articles. Benjwong (talk) 03:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

infobox rename
Certified.Gangsta raised a point about how "Chinese actor and singer" is POV, so I somewhat jokingly suggested a longer, more politically correct name. Looks like I'll have to watch myself more often from now on. However, I hate political drama on Wiki, and for something fun like Cpop artists' articles, why do we have to settle for any drama? In any case, what do you think about "CTSM" or "CTHK singer and actor"? If this ends up being a name as politically satisfying as possible, and will get the fewest number of people yelling at us, I'm all for it. But what do you guys think? Pandacomics (talk) 06:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

User_talk:Certified.Gangsta for full length discussion. I highly doubt this is a neutral forum. The best way to achieve NPOV, in this case, is to create separate but equal userboxes for Taiwanese actor and singer, Chinese actor and singer, Singaporean actor and singer, and Malaysian actor and singer.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 07:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The purpose of Infobox Chinese actor and singer is to make it easier to present Chinese names and Chinese movie industry awards as compared to Infobox actor. The infobox is so titled because of its use of Chinese names. Nationality is not implicated by using the infobox. Creating identical infoboxes with different names seems both redundant and silly to me. I'm okay with a name change that would clarify its use of the Chinese language in the template, but I'm against making the infobox a political statement or a declaration of citizenship. How about something along the lines of, "Infobox CLE"?


 * I hope you can assume good faith and believe this can be a neutral place of discussion, but if you'd like a neutral third opinion, feel free to take this to WP:RFC. It would also be appreciated if you don't move the template again until consensus is reached.– Skyezx  // msg  08:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Skyezx. I think CLE is a pretty nice neutral option there, cause (a) if there are more countries to be added, it can still stay three letters long, (b) it's three letters long, (c) CLE is pretty much who we are. Hurrah. I support the CLE one. Pandacomics (talk) 13:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess if we have to be so picky, CLE it be. Dengero (talk) 13:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what CLE stands for. But the current state (listing out every Mandarin-speaking countries (China, Taiwan, Singapore, and Malaysia)), though somewhat verbose, is still the best way to avoid controversy. And it does't take a couple more seconds to add them out anyway.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 00:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * CLE = Chinese-language entertainment. In the case of the infobox, it can also mean entertainer. An excessively long name is not practical. I mean, who wants to type out "China, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Overseas Chinese," etc.? It would be impractical and annoying. Templates are supposed to simplify the editing process... not complicate it. CLE is only a suggestion, but again, I see no reason to stir up controversy when there really isn't any. The 'Chinese' in the infobox name is only there because of the Chinese language characters, not country or citizenship. – Skyezx  // msg  01:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the chinese LANGUAGE and not the chinese. So that will cover canto and mando. As for nationality, we might as well stick Hong Kong and Macau because they're always treated differently from China, and Korea with Japan because they sometimes sing chinese too? lol. Trival. Dengero (talk) 01:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, why am I even bothering. If you have a problem, go to WP:RFC because personally, I think you're doing a bit of POV pushing yourself. Dengero (talk) 01:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I do understand CertifiedGangsta's reasoning behind a move. But the move proposals of Taiwanese actor and singer, Chinese actor and singer, Singaporean actor and singer, and Malaysian actor and singer is plain crazy. We're not going to create a template for the birth place of every artist. This is for the language. Benjwong (talk) 03:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If we want to focus on the language rather than the ethnicity, then a good start would be changing it to "Mandarin" (mandopop), cantopop, Taiwanese-pop, K-pop, etc. I find the word Mandarin a bit more more neutral and less offensive than Chinese.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 04:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What about "Chinese-language actor and singer" ? Would that be NPOV? Pandacomics (talk) 10:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

How on earth is "chinese" offensive? Just because chinese is accociated with China rather than Taiwan/Malaysia/Hong Kong? The I feel offended because you're saying English. I'm Australian thankyou very much. Dengero (talk) 05:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok this is getting silly. There are white people raised in the east that speak all chinese languages. Vice versa there are chinese people that speak only english. Certifiedgangsta if you don't mind me saying... a language is not permanently attached to a group of people. You might be getting concerned over little reasons. Benjwong (talk) 06:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If the government of Taiwan can accept that its citizens speak "Chinese languages", I don't see why Wikipedia should consider it offensive. – Skyezx  // msg  07:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The feeling ethnic Taiwanese have on Chinese is quite negative especially after 50 years of authotarian rules, cultural/political oppression, and mass massacre. No Taiwanese spoke a word of Mandarin until Chinese Nationalists forced the language on them. I don't think any of you realize the delicate situation we're dealing with here.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 07:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So we're all arguing here about the ethnic taiwanese not speaking chinese??? What about the ethnic malaysians? The ethnic singaporeans? Do we have to create a new english template for ethnic australian aboriginals? This is absurd. By the way, someone move the Template:Infobox Chinese, Taiwanese, Singaporean, Malaysian actor and singer to chinese-language actor and singer? Dengero (talk) 07:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The Chinese language IS the Chinese language, no matter who uses it. 中文 is written in what is called the Chinese language. What else can you call it? Mandarin? That's a spoken dialect, not the written language that we're dealing with here. The infobox in discussion is primarily helpful for displaying names in Chinese. If it doesn't require the use of Chinese, then the usual 'Infobox Actor' will do. – Skyezx  // msg  08:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Denegro, you fail to understand the concept of NPOV. Resorting to low-quality ad hominem will not help your cause. Unilateral action is also not conductive to harmonious editing.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 07:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No need to throw technical Wiki jargon at me, for I tend to ignore it. I guess we need a third opinion here, until then, keep your cool. Dengero (talk) 07:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

botched rename
When user:Certified.Gangsta renamed the template page, he left the documentation page in place, so now the template page IS BROKEN. The documentation is missing and the documentation notice says "create". Template:Infobox Chinese actor and singer/doc should be "/doc"d to the actual template name. 70.55.86.69 (talk) 09:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The current name is only temporary. Moving the doc back and forth would be a waste of efforts. The sooner we resolve this discussion, the sooner we can go about fixing it. – Skyezx  // msg  09:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

RFC: Is there a need to change the title of Infobox
A very short explaination in my own words (correct me if I'm wrong), The user Certified.Gangsta wants to change the the Template "chinese actor and singer" into "Chinese,Taiwanese,Singaporean,Malaysian actor and singer" because "chinese" by itself is POV. Personally, I think this is too trival because in that sense, we have to create infoboxes for the tens of countries who speak "english" into "American, Australian, Canadian etc etc etc...". For more info see per above discussion.Dengero (talk) 08:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

So you heard one side of the story, now the other. Me and Pandamics had some thoughtful, constructive, enlightening discussion in User_talk:Certified.Gangsta when I took issue with the title of the userbox. He suggested I move the template to the current name "Chinese, Taiwanese, Singaporean, Malaysian actor and singer". I complied then he said he regret making that suggestion and raised the issue on this forum. Now, I don't really consider this a neutral place to discuss especially since many have a lot of nationalistic feelings here, but nevertheless I tried to participate. Denegro then started to unilaterally revert the userboxes even though discussion was still underway. That's all I gotta say.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 08:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I afraid I only reverted one infobox change for Rainie Yang. And that was because I feel you should stop changing the infoboxes until a concensus is reached. That said, I would appreciate it if you can spell my name right. Dengero (talk) 08:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't believe NPOV could be maintained in a Chinese-dominated forum. And other editors do not care enough or have enough expertise on this issue to make the right call. I see nothing wrong with the infobox Pandamics and I came up with. The main problem you people have with that infobox is verbosity. However, I find it extremely easy to add these infoboxes. At the same time, we avoided the possible repercussion and accusation of POV pushing. It's the ideal solution without a doubt. On a side note, I would appreciate if you spell the word "consensus" correctly.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 08:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you please calm down. Wait for a third comment. Dengero (talk) 08:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

At this point, I'd wait for the RFC. I hope you guys will remain civil until then. Hopefully, we can work something out through consensus and a fresh perspective. – Skyezx  // msg  08:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

are considered WP:CANVASS. Canvassing is not the right way to further your agenda.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 10:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And your point is? I asked 1 person for further comment and I expressed my views of you to a friend. Are you going to restrict what I say to my friends? Dengero (talk) 11:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

From what I'm seeing, you tried to gain the upper hand in a discussion by recruiting people who have similar opinions as you do to join the discussion in order to create a "crowd" atmosphere. WP:CANVASS, an official policy, states that ''canvassing is sending messages to multiple Wikipedians with the intent to inform them about a community discussion. Messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and are generally considered DISRUPTIVE.'' Please follow the rule in the future. Thank you--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 11:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok Ok look, I won't bother arguing with you any more. Right now, there are 2 things:
 * Wait for a third comment.
 * Please dont update anymore of the infoboxes until a consensus is reached.
 * Ok?
 * A third comment won't help a thing. Look, we don't need a 3rd comment. There are plenty of comments from above. Pandacomics suggested the infobox first, not me. Skyezx said he doesn't care one way or the other on your talkpage. Benwong said he understand what I'm coming from. You and a couple of others dislike the new infobox for whatever reason. I don't see how a 3rd comment will change anything.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 11:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You dont see because there isn't a third comment yet. Dengero (talk) 11:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem is here. It's an infobox for Chinese-language names. Both the PRC and ROC use the Chinese language. This just seems like nationalistic Taiwanization to me. --Joowwww (talk) 12:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There we go. Now it's not longer "only you". Dengero (talk) 12:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The "Infobox Chinese, Taiwanese, Singaporean, Malaysian actor and singer" template is completely unacceptable. Why are we calling it En.wikipedia.  Shouldn't we call it AmericanEnglish.wikipedia and split that from UKEnglish.wikipedia. As much as I understand Certifiedgangsta's concern.  This is equal to splitting "Infobox actor" to "Infobox Native american actors". As the Native american group of actors might be offended if they follow this same logic. Benjwong (talk) 22:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have created a link at Requested moves to move the template back. The template should not have been moved just like that. It is basically stuck now and can only be moved back by administrators. This is creating unnecessary work. Certifiedgangsta don't do it again. Benjwong (talk) 22:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Pandacomics is the one who suggested this current version at first. User_talk:Certified.Gangsta Also Benjwong's example of native American is a poor choice of example. It is undeniable that native American is part of the United States while labeling Taiwanese as Chinese is controversial. Why do we need to risk to piss people off unnecessarily when an easy solution is available? Benjwong's logic appalls me.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 23:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am trying hard to do a comparison of what you've proposed. Why is it called "Infobox Chinese, Taiwanese, Singaporean, Malaysian actor and singer"?? Where is Hong Kong on that list? Are you pushing the view that Chinese language, politics, territories and people are identical? They seem to be 4 different things to me.  This template happened to be based on Chinese-language.  I would be more open to calling it "Infobox Chinese-language" or something similar or even "Infobox Asian-language" and add other romanizations.  That would be more acceptable. Also many artists are not pure 100% single race etc.  So there is no advantage to naming a template by nationality. Benjwong (talk) 23:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Certified.Gangsta, if you retake a look at what I said on your talk page, I said that it'd be impractical ("cumbersome" was the exact word used) to rename the infobox into what it is now. It'd be nice if I didn't have random words being put in my mouth. That being said, this whole time I've taken your action to move the infobox in good faith, because you had concerns and civilly mentioned them. But before we make moves, again, could we come up with a solution that everyone agrees on? Focussing on the one infobox detail as opposed to the rest of an article seems like something we should be able to solve quickly. Pandacomics (talk) 00:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like we have a result. Certified.Gangsta, if you are still unhappy about the result, consider going to Dispute Resolution, which will give more than just a third request for comment. Meanwhile, please DO NOT edit actor and singer infoboxes again, unless a consensus based on your reasons have been reached. Although I do agree maybe in terms of political correctness to change from "chinese actors and singers" to "chinese-language actors and singers". Trivial, but acceptable on those terms. Dengero (talk) 01:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Plus, we'd only need to add one word. Pandacomics (talk) 02:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Right now the template page is flagged for restore at Requested moves. Pandacomics has made a temporary redirect. However, the template should not be used this way. Benjwong (talk) 02:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I didn't exactly make a temporary redirect, cause the redirect is a product of Certified.Gangsta's initial move. I just kept it for the time being (until the move debate is resolved) because the lack of a redirect screws over the 1000-some articles that are using the infobox. Pandacomics (talk) 02:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I felt betrayed by Pandacomics. We had a compromise on my talkpage then he reneged on his promise and chose his own playground where he could obviously gain an upper-hand to gain the so-called "consensus". Anyway fuck it. I would reluctantly take Denegro's suggestion of "Chinese-language actors and singers" if Chinese-language can be changed to Mandarin. This discussion is wearing me thin.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 02:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Certified.Gangsta, I asked for opinions on the terms "CTSM" (in fact, CTSM was discussed on your webpage) and "CLE", not "restoring the name to Chinese actor and singer". Only Skyezx replied to either suggestion. Dengero and Benjwong felt that the long name was absurd, so they took the steps to request a move. This isn't "choosing my playground"; this infobox concerns the Chinese-language entertainment WikiProject, and I felt that getting opinions from other editors was preferable to having a consensus of two. If you want, I suppose we could even get Jerrch to comment on this. Pandacomics (talk) 02:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Mandarin is not the only item in Chinese language. Also certifiedgangsta, if you feel this strongly about the Taiwanese identity. Please do some genuine research on what Taiwanese IS. If you don't mind me saying again... I do not believe your understanding is entirely clear. Most of these Taiwanese artists are making $$$$$ from the Chinese market. Your talk page also has a large amount of users complaining about your edits. Like I was saying, I see your reasons for concern. This forced renaming of templates is adding too much work for everyone. Benjwong (talk) 02:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I dont understand your reason to object to the CTSM template. Is it an issue of "ethnic group" or "language"? If the issue is ethnic group then classifying Taiwanese as Chinese is POV pushing since it would be against their self and community identification. On the other hand, if the issue is "language", then we should have separate infobox for Cantonese-speaking, and Taiwanese artists who perform in Taiwanese or whatever other languages.

Contrary to what you just said, my talkpage doesn't contain large amount of complaint. Most of the people who complained are the people from this thread.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 04:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * ....why don't we just finalize it with "Infobox Chinese-language singer and actor", considering this is the Chinese-language entertainment WikiProject? I mean, you seemed to be fine with that suggestion as well, Certified.Gangsta; Benjwong didn't seem to object to that proposition, as did Dengero. We can easily solve the whole language issue by identifying the artists with Cantopop (Cantonese) or Mandopop (Mandarin). Chinese-language doesn't necessarily mean Mandarin, after all. Pandacomics (talk) 05:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That is what we proposed from the very start. Certified.Gangsta is the only person having a problem with it. Stop stalling the discussion C.G. Dengero (talk) 05:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If this is about Chinese language entertainment, then "Malaysian" has absolutely no place in the name of the template. If this is about nationals from the various regions, then the name is very long for a template. If this is restricted to entertainers of Chinese descent... template:Infobox ethnic Chinese entertainer seems fine. If it's for both ethnic and linguistic, then template:Chinese entertainer would be good. If just for linguistic template:Infobox Chinese-language entertainer. The name of the template right now indicates it's an overly restricted southeast asian entertainer box. 70.55.86.69 (talk) 06:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * CTSM template will not work. It is too long and incomplete. Benjwong (talk) 14:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break
My post on Dengero's talkpage was in response to Certified.Gangsta's borderline civil comments, not to the discussion itself. But I will assume good faith, and so we won't go there. I do care about this discussion and how it resolves. Certified.Gangsta is clearly misunderstanding our comments, so why don't we clarify the problem so we're on the same page.
 * 1. Template:Infobox Chinese, Taiwanese, Singaporean, Malaysian actor and singer is excessively long.
 * 2. The infobox name refers to the Chinese language used, not ethnicity. More specifically, it refers to the Chinese characters used in :the template and not the spoken dialect of the artist.
 * 3. Creating identical infoboxes with different names is unnecessary and redundant.
 * 4. "Infobox Chinese-language singer and actor" will address the above three issues.

Certified.Gangsta, can you accept "Infobox Chinese-language singer and actor"? If not, can you propose a neutral name that will satisfy the above three issues?

Things to keep in mind: 1. This template covers not only singers but ACTORS as well. 2. The name of the infobox will not affect the average reader. Only those who edit and specifically look for it will find it. – Skyezx  // msg  08:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Template:Infobox Chinese-language singer and actor. --Joowwww (talk) 11:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Another proposal I am going to re-propose to call this template "Chinese-name singer and actor". This will allow the template to be used for anyone commonly known in a chinese-speaking market with a chinese name.  They don't even have to be locked into mandarin cantonese etc. Examples include the likes of Irene Ryder or people like Alan Dawa Dolma with a complex heritage, but well known in this market. Also some artists do j-pop along with cantopop like Wada hiromi (who does not have an article yet), but are commonly referred to in their chinese names. Let me know what you all think. Benjwong (talk) 14:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't think "complex heritage" conflicts much with speaking a Chinese language (e.g. Siris). If Chinese-language media can't find a Kanji/Hanja name for the artist, they make one up (which is what happened with Jang Nara). If artists didn't really use their "Chinese-language" name much, they find one (e.g. the Vidals). I'm pretty sure Irene Ryder didn't exactly have a Chinese name when she was born; if she did, it appears to be a transliteration anyway. It's marginally similar to Chinese, etc. artists using their English names on album covers. If they don't have an English name &mdash; most don't &mdash; sometimes they find one. If the album happens to get sold in an English-language country, Chinese language-illiterate buyers can at least read "Jay" (as opposed to 周杰倫). Anyway, I support Skyezx's suggestion. Pandacomics (talk) 16:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Skyezx The admin restored the template, but its still stuck on the wrong one. Perhaps we can move it to the right one after? Under whatever name it will be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dengero (talk • contribs)
 * Support Skyezx Ok I am fine with the move to "Template:Infobox Chinese-language singer and actor". But where are you seeing a move? It looks the same as before. Benjwong (talk) 02:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I already mentioned above that I don't have a problem with Chinese-language per se, so I support this as well. It's time to end this drama over a petty infobox anyway. Last but not least, I want to take this opportunity to express my deep regret at this unforeseen, unfortunate incident.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 05:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Since I assume this issue is resolved, I will move the infobox to its new name, "Template:Infobox Chinese-language singer and actor", and along with it, its associated pages. – Skyezx  // msg  05:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyone interested in using AWB or some related tool to move the old template tag to the new one? Right now a ton of articles are still linking to the redirects. Basically change "{{Infobox Chinese actor and singer" to "{{Infobox Chinese-language actor and singer" and repeat a thousand times. Benjwong (talk) 06:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Woo hoooooooo, AWB!!!!!1111. I think you're off the hook, Ben, because you did the mass change with AWB last time for the banners. Where do you get the script for AWB, anyway? Pandacomics (talk) 06:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You can find it at AutoWikiBrowser. However, I was assuming others were registered with the script.  The process was not entirely automated.  I basically had to hit enter enter enter. Maybe it is easier if I just use it tomorrow. Benjwong (talk) 06:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I will certainly help with that. I was going to start right after I moved the template, but Moonlight Resonance and the Olympics has distracted me. xP – Skyezx  // msg  07:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've made about half the changes. Feel free to finish up. If not, I'll be glad to finish up the rest in a few days. – Skyezx  // msg  09:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

No wonder why Skyezx was busy.--SkyWalker (talk) 09:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, yep. I don't make mass edits just for fun. – Skyezx  {{sub| // msg}}  09:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * :). Most of the Chinese person don't have any source to prove the notability and some of the article has only Chinese sources. English source is vital if the article has to survive in English wikipedia.--SkyWalker (talk) 09:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fact of the matter is, 90% of sources on Chinese-language artists will be in Chinese of some form. You simply don't see much English-language coverage, if any. I mean, at most you get an article on Time Magazine. That's great, but ultimately, that's as much coverage as people are ever going to get (getting on CNN Talkasia is another milestone, but you get the point.) Plus, there are no guidelines that explicitly forbid foreign-language sources, so there's nothing wrong with just having only Chinese sources. Pandacomics (talk) 09:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * To add to that, WP:NONENG says, "...editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality..." There usually aren't any English language sources, so we're pretty much stuck with Chinese sources. And according to that line in the policy, it appears that it is acceptable to use non-English sources. We're aware these articles need work, but that's why the WikiProject is here. =) – Skyezx  {{sub| // msg}}  10:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Chinese references are better than no references at all. --Joowwww (talk) 11:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It is more realistic for a Chinese artist to have a TVB or CCTV source rather than one from CNN. Some of the best sources are actually magazines, which I am shocked even people at zh.wikipedia are not using. Benjwong (talk) 20:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You got to be kidding me. This reminds me why I am on a prolonged break from WP. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand why you feel that way. Except I don't know too many sources that would go in depth about the lives of the artists other than local magazines. Is useful for basic info.  Where you should stop is any sensationalism info, such as facts related to dating and their lifestyles etc.  Only problem with paper sources is they are hard to verify. Benjwong (talk) 18:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about this debacle of renaming the template. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok nevermind. I thought you were against magazines for sources for some reason. Benjwong (talk) 18:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Cao Fang (singer)
This is a new article. Can someone with better Chinese-language skills go through the sources and add more about her? Her second album seems to have won a lot of awards. Also, is she Han or Dai? She's from a Dai area. Badagnani (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * i got too many artists article do to. sorry. Benjwong (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Parameter
Will it be too much of an effect to change the parameter for the rating box from imp-->importance? My script somehow isn't intergrating with "imp". Don't worry about it if it changes the whole 1000 artiles lol. Dengero (talk) 02:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Isn't Imp a standard? Benjwong (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Both WPHK and WPAlbums are Importance. Dengero (talk) 00:00, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not too concerned about going from Imp->importance. I don't want to hit "enter enter" a thousand times with awb. Unless someone knows how to make it fully automated. Benjwong (talk) 18:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I was the one who made it into "imp". The reason was that when I was adding banners, I couldn't be bothered with typing "importance" every time. Three letters seemed faster. Pandacomics (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah I get what you mean. Any idea how to intergrate it into this script? You see...I can't even be bothered to type "imp" XD Dengero (talk) 07:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Articles for songs?
I'm curious, has anybody been writing articles for individual songs? If so, have they had trouble finding sources? I started thinking maybe we could write some articles for some of the classics, like Teresa Teng songs (月亮代表我的心, for example), or some of the more memorable hits from 80's era HK pop. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * People have tried making articles for Jay Chou "singles" in the past, but the thing with songs and finding info on them is that 99.9% of all songs are umbilically attached to the albums on which they are found. Your Teresa example is highly likely one of the 0.1%, but the point remains. Pandacomics (talk) 00:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think some of the recent stars' songs would be difficult, but classic songs might be easier. Many Teresa songs have been re-made and sung by other people, and included in movies and TV series, and some of them were actually not originally sung by Teresa herself, but first sung by the Seven Greats.  I was also thinking of Roman Tam's 獅子山下, which had sort of became an anthem for HK.  But I have no idea where to even begin to look for sources that could be considered credible and reliable enough for WP.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * One of the better articles about a song or a piece of music is the article on Canon Rock. It's simple, but it can provide somewhat of a template to what you're looking for. Arsonal (talk) 11:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Modern Chinese music
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Template being redirected?
Looks like WPCLE template is being redirected? See discussion here. Benjwong (talk) 04:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. &mdash; Delievered by §hepBot  ( Disable )  on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:02, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

IFPI Awards
The IFPI Hk awards does not seem to have a full listing anywhere of the winners? The IFPIHK.org site does not show every year and is incomplete. A number of links from different artist pages like Jacky Cheung point there. Anyone know of a better site? Benjwong (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

19th Golden Melody Awards FL nominee
FYI, I nominated 19th Golden Melody Awards as a featured list nominee. Any support is appreciated. Arsonal (talk) 21:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am ok with it. Benjwong (talk) 03:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is now a FL article. Arsonal (talk) 09:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Time to copy past for the other iterations? Yes yes? Pandacomics (talk) 23:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Animation inclusive?
This just crossed my mind. Should Chinese animation fall under our purview as well? I thought I would check to see what everyone else thinks. Arsonal (talk) 07:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Technically yes. Benjwong (talk) 03:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Utility of outlines to wikiprojects
Here's a discussion about subject development you might find interesting.

The Transhumanist 22:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Taiwan is also affected
WikiProject Chinese-language entertainment/Naming Conventions says: "As a workgroup in WikiProject China, we will abide by the naming conventions posted there." and "An acceptable, NPOV alternative is because it is a convention reached by consensus on the WP:CHINA discussion pages, and it displays both the political entity's current official name (Republic of China) as well as the common name (Taiwan)." Articles related to Taiwan's entertainment are also affected. WikiProject Taiwan's conventions and discussions, especially those regarding Taiwan, should also be given weight. Readin (talk) 20:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Which article is not following the rules? Benjwong (talk) 03:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Categories and Project mainspace
I've completed the migration of the old Category:Modern Chinese music articles by quality to Category:Chinese-language entertainment articles by quality. The "by importance" category was also done. Apparently this was never completed when we expanded out project scope a while back. Over the next few weeks, I will probably be revamping our Project mainspace to make them more user-friendly. Arsonal (talk) 22:04, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

GENIE (junyi)
She's a Mandopop singer from Singapore. The article was proposed for deletion. I deprodded it, but can someone familiar with the genre and language try sourcing the article? Her website has copies of press articles. Fences &  Windows  17:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Golden Bell Award...?
Seems like I can't find any English Wiki entry for Golden Bell Award!? Is that really the case or I just have been looking at the wrong places. TheAsianGURU (talk) 23:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, the article does not exist yet here. Sometimes it's hard to get documentation for the history of a Chinese-language entertainment award and who won what and when. Arsonal (talk) 01:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Here is the English language page: Best Leading Actress in a Television Series (Golden Bell Awards).Glenn.S.Johnson (talk) 21:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement
This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 03:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Jet Li
Hello, I started improving the article based on the Hungarian equivalent that is currently undergoing the procedure for featured status. I'm planning on transferring the text and blend it with the already existing one, as well as transfer the references and standardise the refs with cite web. I would appreciate if the Project members could keep an eye on this and help me with suggestions and ideas/reviews, I would like to get the article to featured status here as well. Thanks in advance --Timish ¤ Gül Bahçesi  09:37, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Andy Lau, Aaron Kwok, Leon Lai, Jacky Cheung
These articles all seem to be the same person. Can someone familiar with him determine the most common name and merge the reliable sourced content into that article? Thanks! Active Banana   ( bananaphone  16:00, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's four different people :) The intro seems to be similar because they were called "the four heavenly kings" by fans of mandopop. --Timish ¤ Gül Bahçesi  15:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. Some writing clarification will need to be done to those articles. Thanks! Active Banana   ( bananaphone  21:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Films
Hello! Should this project also include Chinese-language based films? I've worked on some Hong Kong films and I was curious if this project should be included on them. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * We decided a long time ago that you can include films. However you might get far more editors at regular WP:film. Benjwong (talk) 05:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Sorry, should've browsed through the archives. I'll be adding a few good articles to your project then. Cheers. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:28, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Chinese-language entertainment articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release
Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Chinese-language entertainment articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 22:15, 19 September 2010 (UTC)