Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China/NNU Class Project/Archive 1

Chinese Wikipedia
Seems that many of your students are posting their English Assignment not on the English Wikipedia, but the Chinese one. pls check: -Nivekin (talk) 12:04, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * zh:USER:NNU-11-21091112: zh:First article
 * zh:USER:NNU-11-06090310: zh:Firsrt Article
 * zh:USER:NNU-11-22100515: zh:Beautiful Wujiang
 * zh:USER:NNU-10-24100105: zh:China Dinosaur Park
 * zh:USER:NNU-2-xieyi: zh:Left behind children
 * zh:USER:NNU-2-05100146
 * zh:USER:Nnu-1-05100108: zh:Biyao
 * zh:USER:Nnu1024100102: zh:Tonghua Grape Wine
 * zh:USER: Nnu1024100104: zh:Bb nipple

Thanks for letting me know. Am addressing this issue with the students. Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 12:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Extra columns
Can anyone think of a checklist system or something to ensure that the articles all have the following:
 * Basic cleanup
 * Stub tag
 * Categories
 * Talk page banner
 * That other thing I can't remember now

Maybe more columns with ticks or exes or something? Thoughts? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * A subject worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. While some of the articles coming out of this project meet this criterion, recipes don't. Some of the parks (scenic areas) may be notable, but the articles I've seen don't tell me why.
 * While I'm here, can I suggest using real usernames rather than numbers? I can't help thinking of The Prisoner... "I am not a number! I am a free man!". Bazj (talk) 11:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * We can do a lot of the above checks and fixes using the tool links contained in the template atop this course page. I am also working on, and going to achieve one or two more useful tool links, which will give us everything we need to be effective.--My76Strat (talk) 12:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

random idea
Would it be useful to the students to discuss internationally-celebrated (but non-controversial) events, like today being International Talk Like a Pirate Day? Not really as something that can be added to or edited, but maybe still useful to see how idiomatic English is used in humo(u)r and informally. Maybe just having an end section on WikiProject China/NNU Class Project entitled "interesting articles for today" or something. Of course, they can get these off the Main Page, but many articles on that page would perhaps be (even) less accessible or of less interest to them. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

A suggestion
We can avoid 90% of the grief associated with creating a new article if we have them developed first as a draft in the sandbox for example. Each student has a link on their user page to create one, and we can address what might be a concern before it ever becomes a concern. Plus, I promise you there are things we can show you, that will help you considerably. A peer review is also a good teaching method to consider. Helpers are also more efficient when we already know where your drafts will be. We can deal with the initial wave of activity, and nothing bad has happened! You will see however, that creating a draft, will be so much less stressful for everyone, as you begin. Best--My76Strat (talk) 05:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * While that sounds like a good idea, page patrollers need to practice their skills when it comes to dealing with new editors. This is good practice for that part of the community who spends their time watching new page feeds and recent changes. These automated tools should have some kind of messaging capability like we do in the watchlist, so that patrollers can be reminded if necessary. You can try to prevent new editors from creating new articles and working with the community to improve them, by subvertng the Wikipedia paradigm ("anyone can edit") and asking new editors to create these pages in their user space instead, while ignoring the role of the patrollers and their response to new editors and new articles. For too long, these people have been deleting and tagging, and doing not much else, and I find that more troubling than an influx of new editors learning the ropes. We are not robots. It is far more important for the patrollers to develop a rhythm and flow that is in harmony with the editorial side of recent changes. Too much effort is spent on templated warning, tagging and deletion, instead of communicating and creating working relationships with real people. We need the human touch, and that includes the grief. It's a package deal. Viriditas (talk) 06:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * We could use the help. Sandboxes don't get speedy tagged. Patrollers could comment at talk pages. This might help some become more thoughtful and investigative, and less tag-happy. We could rustle up some folks at New page patrol talk, Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion or the pump or Project China or Project Universities. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The whole point of live editing is to encourage collaboration with the sole purpose of improving articles. By moving this activity to a sandbox, we are undermining the entire process. The so-called "grief" is felt by editors who for some reason, have forgotten about this process and pay way too much attention to "pushing paper" around their desk—adding maintenance tags and warning new users—instead of helping to fix the articles and teach new users about Wikipedia. There are a significant number of people who see this as a video game of sorts, where they can click tag and warn rather than seeing the big picture that involves new editors entering the revision control system on a learning curve. Attempting to segregate this process is a step backwards. The more we can challenge the patrollers with live new editors, the better off we will be in developing new strategies that enhance the patrolling process and help retain new editors. The point I'm trying to make is that the "grief" comes from patrollers forgetting why we're here. Viriditas (talk) 06:41, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * There is all kinds of consensus that creating an article is not the most highly advised effort for the newest of users. It is recommended that a few basic tenets be understood. In the WMF sponsored ambassador program, most of the participants experience the anyone can edit moniker by small edits to existing articles first. An early criteria is to improve one sentence in an existing article, and then add a referenced fact to another. So as they practice editing, they also focus on the topic they intend to write. And we assist as much as possible. When a stub is safe from obvious CSD criteria, it goes live, and they continue editing in the collaborative environment that Wikipedia is. The measure of success to this approach is already known, And when the project completes, invariably some contributors continue editing Wikipedia, and they are better for having availed themselves to the assistance we are here to provide. Patrols will still find plenty of stuff to criticize from the crop of new articles. If I effectively mentor, it won't be this group providing the fodder. Cheers--My76Strat (talk) 06:57, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You just described the Tutorial. Perhaps the class should take that first instead? I'm a firm believer that people learn by doing, and that theory, while important, does not always reflect practice. The stress and grief faced by patrollers is a good thing, because it forces them to reevaluate how they deal with new editors and their articles, many of which are tagged and deleted in a matter of minutes, leading editors to wonder why they even bothered. It wasn't always like that. I suspect that one of the reasons for Wikipedia's initial growth had to do with the fact that new stubs often sat around for a long time, with new editors learning how to edit at the same time. That doesn't happen at all now due to the use of automated tools by page patrollers, which I think has led to declining editor retention. Once you see your new article deleted right after you've created it, there's no incentive to stay. It wasn't always like that. The reason people stuck around was to learn to fix the mess they made. Somewhere along the lines, people forgot how learning takes place, and how much it is a part of being a new editor. The whole patrolling experience is a huge letdown for new editors, and it needs to be rethought. Viriditas (talk) 07:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There are lots of tasks to be done on en.wikipedia, and writing a high-quality article is one of the harder tasks; it can take a little while to learn how to do it. Encouraging new editors to start by writing a new article is like coaching athletics novices towards a marathon. No doubt many will reach the ultimate goal but it will be a more painful slog than if they'd worked towards a 10km fun-run (or the pole-vault or the triple jump) instead; and some might give up, even though a marathon could have been a reasonable target for them in the longer term. Not all athletes are destined to be marathon-runners anyway. bobrayner (talk) 14:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In theory, that almost makes sense. In practice, it isn't accurate. The majority of Wikipedia editors already know how to write at a college level, and half are young enough to learn fast. Viriditas (talk) 03:22, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I simultaneously agree and disagree with you :-)
 * Many new editors have good writing skills, but the difficult bit is in wikipedia-specific conventions: Various bits of wikilinking, categorisation, licensing, inline refs, NPOV, and so on - if creating a new article, a lot of these boxes have to be ticked simultaneously, but if improving an existing article then it's likely that somebody has already done half of those chores so you can concentrate on writing nice prose incrementally, and it's not too hard to add extra sources when you can look at how the original article did it.
 * A couple of days ago I submitted a superb paper (if I say so myself) towards an MSc, but if it were an article here it would swiftly be covered with synth and essay tags, and would probably get AfDd as non-notable. bobrayner (talk) 11:10, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Copyright / Plagiarism
Just had to tag an article for copyright violation. I understand there are differing cultural norms on this, but the values prevailing on Wikipedia are outlined at WP:COPYVIO, WP:PLAGIARISM, and Plagiarism. And, on a more practical level, cutting-and-pasting text from another website won't help learn English. Bazj (talk) 12:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at your contibs. I can't see which you are talking about. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah. Nevermind. I found it and cautioned the editor. I know you did also, but mine is shorter. Thanks for catching that. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The users contributions show a copyvio. This is not about cultural norms. The professor does not condone and we have the same definition of plagiarism. You were right to CSD the article. To be clear, copyright violations are not a matter taken lightly. So consider that it is not tolerated.--My76Strat (talk) 12:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not tolerated. Students have been given this as a basic premise. However, given how common (and largely tolerated) the practice is here, it may happen again. Working to put a stop to it, but all help appreciated. No need for special treatment in action, but a civil tone will always be helpful and appreciated. Students are still learning the implications of plagiarism.

Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 06:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a new page patroller and doing my best to catch copyvios in articles that are created for courses (and with any new article, really). Recently, I've come across the India Education Program who uses this method to watch its students contributions and point out copyright violations. They seem to be more lenient when it comes to academic integrity but regardless, I think it helps show students how quickly it can be caught and how little it's tolerated. Just thought you might like to know.  Ol Yeller Talktome 10:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Tianzhong mountain,Runan


The English level could be higher. Will need proofreading. The content doesn't seem very encyclopedic either. causa sui (talk) 20:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

DaBaiTu Toffee
I redirected the article DaBaiTu Toffee created by User:NNU10ban24100111 to White Rabbit Creamy Candy as this is already an established article about White Rabbit candy. You should remember that the English Wikipedia already has 3,744,858 articles, so there are very few notable topics that do not already have articles, which means that you need to think very carefully what you can usefully add to Wikipedia, and not just write a random essay about your favourite candy or favourite type of baozi. Whilst I am in favour of engaging schools and colleges in Wikipedia, it should not be used simply as an exercise in practising students' written English, but should aim to add useful content to the encyclopedia. None of the students' articles that I have seen so far are suitable for inclusion on Wikipedia as they are unsourced personal essays, and not encyclopedic in nature. I would strongly suggest spending a week or so reading selected Wikipedia articles in class, and looking at the source code to try to understand formatting, layout and source referencing before attempting to do any Wikipedia editing at all; and when you do start editing, try adding to existing articles first (short, sourced facts, not long paragraphs based on your personal knowledge or feeling, or it will probably get deleted). I would suggest that you only try to create a new article after several weeks of successful editing. BabelStone (talk) 22:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No offense, but that's wrong on almost every point. There are an incredible number of articles on notable topics waiting to be created, and we have thousands of notable stubs waiting to be expanded. This idea that the low hanging fruit has already been taken might be true for top level parent articles but isn't remotely true for any of the daughter articles. Your comment that most of the articles created so far are just personal essays and not acceptable topics is also false. Out of the dozen I reviewed, the vast majority were acceptable, and only required light cleanup. Viriditas (talk) 00:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Request
I would like to propose adding a transcluded or manual assessment column to the student list table so the teacher (and other editors) can monitor and chart the progress of these articles. Viriditas (talk) 08:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes that is good. What you suggest is now being done. In the top box on the project page, press the link titled "Contributions of student participants only" and it will evaluate the students separately from the link which assess everyone related to the project. My76Strat (talk) 09:19, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about an assessment column, such as the color or class-coded assessments. This is a good way of letting the students view their work and a community assessment of it. It also lets them compare their work with other students. I don't know how to transclude the assessment from the tag on the article talk page to a separate table, so it may have to be done manually. Viriditas (talk) 09:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * this could be accomplished by including a taskforce-switch in the WP:China template. But as all talkpalges are also in Category:WikiProject China/NNU liaison/Articles one could ask a friendly bot owner to check the category and read the WP:China class and importance ratings and dump it on some subpage. Agathoclea (talk) 10:03, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I made a request at Bot requests/Archive 43. Agathoclea (talk) 10:10, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's helpful, but I think their standard answer is do it yourself. Viriditas (talk) 10:53, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sorry, I did misunderstand your question. I am trying to get use of this ambassador resource so we can use the same tool. Tell me if it does approximately what you had in mind. Some of the classes on this list have no data, so if you choose one of them, Nothing will happen, so try another one if that's the case, and you can see if it sorts the information in a manner you are interested in. follow this link for a sample My76Strat (talk) 12:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * An individual botrequest could match the article creator to the article and posibly read maintainance tags. Using the taskforceswitch would simplify it to the WP1.0 assessment but no extra effort apart from altering the WP:China template and I would recommend to look into that. Agathoclea (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Pink help boxes
I've been delivering pink help boxes to students' talk pages.

I've delivered three so far, manually. I am tired and want to relax. Here is the list and which have been done and which remain:
 * The pink help boxes

If anyone can bot or AWB the remainer, I would be grateful. If not, don't worry. I will do them tomorrow. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm out this evening, so probably won't be able to. But if there are any pink boxes you want me to do on Friday, I'm devoting the evening to WP, so can AWB anything you like :)  WormTT   · (talk) 12:18, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

List of tasks for editors willing to help
Please feel free to modify this list:
 * Notify students when they need to add/improve their article's references.
 * Add categories
 * Add stub tags
 * If a student is working on something in a sandbox that already has an article, let them know.
 * Make suggestions to the teacher to pass on to students during class.
 * Award good work with Registered Editor or The Exceptional Newcomer Award, etc.

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:38, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

All articles
If anyone knows how to generate a list of all articles created by students, whether in sandboxes or the mainspace, please dump it into one of my sandboxes, or better yet, here: WikiProject China/NNU Class Project/All articles. If this list already exists somewhere, please point me in the right direction. (Please don't point out the column in the student list, because I already know about that. :) I'm looking for something complete.) Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:42, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Articles are already tagged and listed at Category:WikiProject China/NNU liaison/Articles, or at least most are. No need to say "all", just say WikiProject China/NNU Class Project/Articles. What do you want to use the page for? I ask because User:Femto Bot specializes in subpages with a list of project articles, usually used for a watchlist. Viriditas (talk) 04:27, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Now you can use this watchlist. Viriditas (talk) 04:34, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Here is the list extracted from that:


 * WikiProject China/NNU Class Project/All articles


 * Just to clear up any confusion, the watchlist example uses Special:RecentChangesLinked from the list at WikiProject China/NNU Class Project/Articles. Viriditas (talk) 05:32, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

See also: this new list

Root carving
Deleted and now recreated as a stub. If anyone knows who first created it, please let her know, so she can expand it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:34, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Found: (User talk:NNU-10-24100105)

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:04, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Osprey
This might be a copyvio issue; User:NNU-10-03100303/An Osprey Host --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree. I have removed the poem as too much for fair use and remarked on the talk page to its regard. Thanks for spotting that so quickly. My76Strat (talk) 05:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Ambassadors IRC help channel
It has been suggested that we tell students about the #wikipedia-en-classroom help channel. With fairly few students visiting NNU channel now, monitoring editors have dropped in numbers, and some students have found nobody home.

If you think this is a good idea, (I do), how should we let the students know? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I've never been in there. Is it better or worse than #wikipedia-en-help for this sort of thing, and if so, why? Whichever we decide on, we should only list two channels, I think... three is getting confusing. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:46, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think using #wikipedia-en-classroom would help—that channel doesn't have that many people in it, so it has neither the focus of #en-nnu-help nor the scale of #wikipedia-en-help. I think the current instruction in the topic is fine, but if you guys think it's better to move to a more active place, I'd suggest using #wikipedia-en-help instead. wctaiwan (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with Wctaiwan, the wikipedia-en-classroom is specifically designated for use by student participants who have coordinated their involvement with the ambassador program. The resources to support that program are stretched thin and their primary obligation is to that outreach. They are being helpful, and agree to support in an unofficial capacity, but it would be better to get ambassadors who are willing to populate en-nnu-help opposed to the other way around. IMO My76Strat (talk) 15:21, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * For now, I must agree. I check in periodically to see if anyone's home there. NNU channel is better monitored, especially lately. No need to offer ambassadors channel. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

List of things to tell the teacher to talk about during class
I will post here and let the teacher know about this post on his talk so others can discuss it with him on IRC.

Please feel free to add to this list:
 * Style: The students need to omit peacock and weasel words. They must stick to the facts, and avoid opinion. To avoid competency issues related to being ESL students, writing simply will help a lot. Just the facts! See how other articles are written. If they were doing this, they would see how their writing differs.
 * More sources! (Wikipedia is not a source.)
 * Search for duplicate articles using English keywords, and Chinese characters. Search hard. If the topic is well-known, then it likely has an article.
 * Don't sign articles. Just communications.
 * Don't use translation software.
 * Decide one way or the other where you want students to work on articles. We have failed to instruct here, and are now seeing:
 * Hard disk direct to mainspace
 * Userpage
 * Talkpage
 * Subpage


 * Students don't need to write entire articles and walk away. They can grow articles. They can return to articles and modify. Nurse the articles. Tweak them. Read what you've written.

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Use edit summaries to explain what you are changing in an article.


 * Use the article history to see what changes other people have made, and why. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:01, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi！Wanted you to know that I have seen these messages. Thank you for the feedback; most of this has been covered in class, but of course how much information is absorbed is varying. Wanted you to know also that I have not been recently able to get on IRC at home. I think it's speed rather than anything else. On the subject "Decide one way or the other where you want students to work on articles."--I think new directives on this will be only half-followed. Students have the information about the sandbox, and many of them are handling mainspace interacting rather well. I don't really want to overload them or have too many changes in direction. Ltak had mentioned a checkbox, which looked good. But I have limited teaching time for this project, and it is not viable to keep teaching new processes. I have found email a mediocre way of conveying information. Some doesn't get read, most doesn't get processed. This makes me sound gloomy; but by and large I think this is going quite well, entirely due to your help.

One comment: I think students will not leave messages on such a talkpage. All the posts look administrative. Should/can we move this type of conversation? Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 12:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I set up an auto archive to archive stale threads after 4 days of inactivity. Perhaps reducing the visible threads will make student editing more attractive. Otherwise the main onus is on you to tell the students that this talk page is for their benefit and purpose. My76Strat (talk) 15:46, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Does this mean we should have a separate helpers' notice board and students' notice board (the latter with a short archive date)? I first raise this in the thread on this page entitled Pink help boxes. Perhaps weigh in there. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Coordinated effort by "Editors willing to help, et al."
Should we be coordinating somehow? Our jobs have been cats, factchecks, duplicate checks, banners and tags, infoboxes, cleanup, copyedits, etc. We are uncoordinated, and stuff is slipping through the cracks. Maybe the "edit as you will" Wikipedia style isn't the best approach here. Maybe we need some sort of helpers' coordination notice board. Thoughts? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it might be beneficial to have a separate project page for strategy-regarding-the-project ... since a lot of that sort of discussion isn't directly beneficial to the students themselves. Ideally, they should be able to read this page and find that it is mostly replies to their requests or suggestions for them (individually or collectively) rather than our discussions with each other. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Does this mean we should have a separate helpers' notice board and students' notice board (the latter with a short archive date)? I first raise this in the thread on this page entitled Pink help boxes. Perhaps weigh in there. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

New page patrollers and CSD
Should we be asking these folks if they would please try to provide a source or a comment at talk before too quickly speedy tagging? It sort of feels like a teacher going through homework assignments, carelessly scanning, and then ripping the fails in half without comment. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately there is no easy way to communicate something to all new page patrollers, nor to ensure that they will follow it once it has been communicated to them. This This problem with new page patrol is something that's justifiably getting a lot of criticism at the moment, and alternative ways to do it are under active consideration. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:17, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Demiurge, I've previously recommend the adoption of a NPP sitenotice which would message NPP's in some way, whether through their semi-automated tools or via a script they could install. Viriditas (talk) 00:54, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunatly that is the way it is - and can be used to highlight the plight of good faith newcomers. OTOH the students have made great progress and possibly too much protecting them from the enviroment they are acting in would be counter-productive. We can only guide and help. In fact my first edit was and I was able to not repeat the same mistake again (plenty of other mistakes to choose from). What we do need to do is teach on using watchlist, history (in particlular to see how an article was improved by someone else) and article talkpages like Talk:Xu Song. Agathoclea (talk) 20:48, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Related changes
This is a request to change the related changes link in the template from Related changes to Recent changes and to ask User:Femto Bot to automatically update the list until it is no longer needed. Link to watchlist found here. Viriditas (talk) 02:27, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ We'll leave that link in place as it will always have value, thanks for suggesting it. In the future, if you know your edit is constructive as that clearly was, you are welcome to edit the transcluded page. Again thanks. My76Strat (talk) 08:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Also it would be great if you would add your name to the list here, You are already a considerable factor in helping, and this just makes it official. Cheers My76Strat (talk) 08:14, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, my participation here is at an end. I have larger, overarching concerns about NPP, and I came here to see if my concerns were justified. If you want the bot to update the list of articles composing the watchlist on a daily basis, put in a request to User:Femto Bot. Otherwise, you can update it manually or deprecate it. Good luck. Viriditas (talk) 09:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * O.K., thanks a lot for your help so far. Best My76Strat (talk) 13:32, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Chinese punctuation marks: AWB fixers
Just to let you know, the folks at "AWB tasks" may help with the problem. So, we may not need to spend time hunting down and replacing these odd characters. Let's see what they say about it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Images
I saw a comment regarding the students and image uploads. It's great if they would do these things as well. Just to clarify, when Josh said only pictures you have taken, or someone you know has taken, the someone you know part is not entirely correct. No person can donate the copyright of another person without an entirely different process of verification, called OTRS. So as long as the registered user is uploading an image that they took, everything will be fine. Going one step further, we can't upload every picture simply because we took it. So we do not host family photos, and other images better suited for social networking. But pictures of anything that has an article would be good, and stuff that should have an article (monuments, historical markers, and other images of civic value). And of course, if there are any questions, or comments, we are here to provide that assistance. My76Strat (talk) 03:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC) Timestamp to avoid archiving --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Helpful links to Chinese Wikipedia (請大家了解这几篇重要文章!)
Welcome to all the NNU students who are editing English Wikipedia! Here are a few links to Chinese Wikipedia (维基百科) that should help you in your assignment. Since Chinese and English Wikipedia work according to the same rules, might as well read these rules in Chinese! So here they are:
 * 欢迎 (English: WP:welcome)
 * 五大支柱 (English: WP:five pillars)
 * 创建新页面 (English: WP:create)
 * 改進條目 (English: WP:article development)
 * 编辑页面 (English: WP:editing)
 * 通用关注度指引 (English: WP:General notability guidelines): "如果一个主题得到了可靠来源的有效介绍，而且这些来源独立于主题实体，则可假定该主题或符合独立条目的收录标准. "
 * 可供查证 (English: WP:verifiability): "维基百科內容的门槛，是可供查证，而非真实正確..."
 * 頁面存廢討論 (English: WP:articles for deletion)

Good editing! 祝你们编辑愉快！ Madalibi (talk) 04:21, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for including these links! That was thoughtful, and particularly astute! My76Strat (talk) 04:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! I don't know if this was astute, but I hope these links will help! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 04:44, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I double checked to make sure I hadn't written out of context—Astute: "Having or showing an ability to accurately assess situations", I agree with myself, "particularly astute!" And very well appreciated! My76Strat (talk) 04:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, thank you very much for your generous assessment. My contributions here are still very far from yours, so I am flattered! Madalibi (talk) 04:53, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Timestamp to avoid archiving --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Ideas for new pages
I thought of a few topics that deserve to be addressed but don't have their page on Wikipedia. I'm a historian by training, so you will quickly see the bias :). There are also more complicated topics: You can also create pages on Chinese singers, writers, scenic spots (风景区), or novels (someone just created The Peach-Blossom Fan 桃花扇, which was a great idea). Have fun! Madalibi (talk) 10:21, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Chen Mingxia 陳名夏 (d. 1654)
 * Fan Wencheng 范文程 (1597-1666)
 * Wang Shuhe 王叔和 (ca. 180-270)
 * Canon of the Pulse (Maijing 脈經)
 * Tao Hongjing 陶弘景 (456-536) (amazingly doesn't have his own page!)
 * Liu Wansu 劉完素 (ca. 1120-1200)
 * Zhang Congzheng 張從正 (or Zhang Zihe 張子和) (1156-1228)
 * Li Gao (physician) 李杲 (1180-1251)
 * Wang Haogu 王好古 (1200-1264?)
 * Zhu Zhenheng 朱震亨 (or Zhu Danxi 朱丹溪) (1282-1358)
 * Any other famous Chinese doctor you can think of apart from Li Shizhen and Zhang Zhongjing, who already have their own page.
 * Fushe 復社
 * Crazy chan 狂禪
 * Scramble for concessions
 * Ming-Qing transition
 * Society of the Qing Dynasty
 * Etc.
 * There are a little more than 80 AAAAA-rated tourist sites in China. Each one should be notable enough to have its own page: think of Zhangjia jie 张家界, Huanghe lou 黄鹤楼, etc. You can find a list of 5A-category scenic spots here (5A景区大权). Example of an existing article: Jiuzhaigou Valley (九寨沟). For a longer list of Chinese tourist sites that already have their own wiki, see: Tourism in China. Madalibi (talk) 02:10, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me add to the wishlist! We are missing several large chinese companies (the ones that are large, but often not international). Those would be very welcome! remember: this is not an invitation to write an article about a local bicycle repair shop or so, but the really big ones with regular reports in newspapers(e.g. mining, chemicals)! 10:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)L.tak (talk)
 * Following on from the list of history articles
 * A lot of history articles are weighted towards specific things: Kings and battles and poets &c. We have less coverage of general historical concepts even though they would be very valuable to the encyclopædia. If anybody would like to start general articles (ie. Ming-era architecture, or the history of forestry in premodern China, or the history of Chinese bronzeworking (Chinese bronzes is just a list of types of bronze object)), they would be very valuable. I don't think any one student could finish an article like that, but there are plenty of academic sources to make a good start. Alternatively, improve an existing article: There are lots of articles crying out for improvement, and if you do it this way, your work is much less likely to be deleted. bobrayner (talk) 12:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a great idea. One student created a page on Women's clothing in China, then many editors immediately added content to it. I'm sure there are many similar topics out there that deserve their own page. Madalibi (talk) 02:10, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Timestamp to avoid archiving --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Cultural relics - 64 potential new articles
This article is on Wikipedia's front page right now - List of Chinese cultural relics forbidden to be exhibited abroad. 64 items, looks like none of them currently have their own articles, and their cultural/historical status may mean that some or all of them are notable. Add to the "Articles needing to be written" list? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:57, 22 September 2011 (UTC) Timestamp to avoid archiving --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Also one of the 64 items is in the Nanjing Museum - or at least it was in 2002. Nanjing Museum is an article in great need of expansion - the article lists the museum's own website, in Chinese, as an external link. "the famous full size suit of armor made from small jade tiles held together by silver wire" is in the museum, our article says. Is there an article on that somewhere else on the English Wikipedia? If not, one could be created - especially great if it had a photo. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Undelete
Just a note to say that with very few exceptions, nothing on Wikipedia is truly deleted. If an article is deleted, then as long as it isn't libellous or a copyright violation, myself or another admin can send you a copy of it for your own posterity. Good luck! WilliamH (talk) 14:15, 22 September 2011 (UTC) Timestamp to avoid archiving --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Pink boxes vs. Notice board
I'm considering holding off on more pink boxes. The remaining ones are not vital. Too many, and they will not pay attention.

Should we have some sort of notice board with messages giving praise and suggestions? We still don't have a way of directly communicating with them en masse. Thoughts? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:22, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I've given out one barnstar so far... a few more wouldn't hurt. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:03, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't this page be the notice board? Viriditas (talk) 01:52, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It might be best to split up the helpers notice board and the students notice board. Thoughts? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:29, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it may be better to keep them together for now. However, if you don't like that opinion, I have others. bobrayner (talk) 23:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Bifurcation (forking) should be avoided as the last resort. The ideal solution for a project like this is to use this talk page as the centralized noticeboard. KISS. Viriditas (talk) 02:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like it to be the case that the students can read this talkpage every day to see new ideas for things they can write articles on, or to ask for help, or to read help replies to other students' requests for help, or to see the ideas/suggestions/notices. For them to be able to do that, things really do need to be kept simple... I don't think they will be able to read it regularly when most of the page is taken up with meta-discussions like this one, or discussions about what a bot needs to do etc. One proposal was to simply move this page to a sub-page. However I would prefer creating a separate subpage WikiProject China/NNU Class Project/Planning and then creating a talkpage for that page. It doesn't make it extremely over-complex - it will mean we basically have four pages for the entire project. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * IMO, it isn't necessary. Simply archive old and resolved threads, and you'll have a clean page. Viriditas (talk) 02:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hopefully the bot will soon begin archiving this talk page. I agree it will become a more productive communication tool by archiving stale and resolved threads. In re to Demiurge1000, by the time we developed a good plan, this experiment will be over. My understanding is the scheduled end date is around Christmas. Now if there was interest, and I would count myself interested, in developing a continuous project aimed at organizing school projects who spontaneously arrive at Wikipedia, then time spent developing a better plan, would be well spent. We should decide if there is such a need, and perhaps organize it at a grassroots level. My76Strat (talk) 11:24, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Creating a separate page would take one minute; I hope Christmas is further away than that! But there doesn't seem to be consensus for it, so that's that. Judging by the number of student queries on individual talk pages, and the number on this page, they are not finding this page very intuitive in its current state; but I guess they'll just have to muddle through. As for a "continuous project" regarding school/university classes, that is handled at School and university projects. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand your position, and frankly agree with your assessment. Of course it could have value in the near term, and as you have stated, it only would take a minute to start. Even the instructor stated that students are liable to shy away from using this page because it appears administrative in nature. I also agree that there is a preferred way for class projects to participate, however am aware that it often happens that a class shows up editing having not availed to the programs outline in place. It would be these such classes that could benefit from a project designed to assist after the fact. Or not. My76Strat (talk) 13:30, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I started the above sub-page for its intuitive ease. It is reasonable that meta/administrative discussions should take place there. Perhaps a good next step would be to move some of the meta discussions on this page, and clear it for student use. --My76Strat (talk) 05:49, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In preference to moving things, I've added timestamps to more student-relevant topics here, and then greatly speeded up the archiving speed (to 4 days, from 10), so it should archive a lot next time it goes through. We can then start new topics at the planning stage for further discussion (including this thread). Once the majority of threads are cleared, we can then set the archiving back to 10 days. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Instructions - how to upload a picture you took with your own camera or phone
Feel free to re-use this for any student that needs info on it; http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nnu-10-24100132&diff=prev&oldid=452050365

Josh, you might want to demonstrate this in class... although, don't make the mistake that I made - be sure to use a photo that you really do have the rights to! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:54, 23 September 2011 (UTC) Timestamp to avoid archiving --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Template Nanjing
We need to make sure we add articles to Nanjing when they are appropriate. My76Strat (talk) 12:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

And Jiangsu topics where appropriate too. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Changzhou comb on the main page
The article Changzhou comb has now been accepted for the did you know section on the main page. It will appear for 12 hours there on saturday in the evening (around 20h in China). See WP:DYK/Q for a sneak preview. Congratulations to user:NNU-10-24100134 for having a great article idea!L.tak (talk) 19:25, 29 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That's great news! Well done to everyone involved!


 * Since it's such a visual topic, it would be even better if we could get a picture of such a comb uploaded before the article goes on the main page. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:17, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

National Day
Today (1 October) is National Day of the People's Republic of China. The article needs more citations to independent reliable sources! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

i want to add a photo of nanjing normal university,but i failed,so i want some help NNU-1-05100211 (talk) 10:20, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello! Did you take the picture yourself? If so, go to this page and follow the instructions (log in first if you need to.) Either way (and especially if you did not take the picture) try talking to us, using the IRC link-- live help will be very useful. sonia ♫ 10:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Virus
I just got a popup Chinese advert in the bottom right corner of my screen. This is a familiar sight on most Chinese computers. This is almost certainly a virus received from reference checking at Chinese websites. I will probably have to format my hard disk.

I did nothing other than visit the pages. I didn't click on any links. So, it looks like I got this just from visiting the page.

I am officially off the crew of editors willing to help check references for Chinese articles. Be warned that this may happen to you too. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:21, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you tell me which article that was? We need to remove the link, if nothing else. I'm willing to take the risk (I can access the site on a school computer, which restores to a clean state upon reboot). wctaiwan (talk) 03:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I have no idea. It must have happened a couple of days ago. I opened a dozen tabs, each a reference for a Chinese article. Chrome crashed hard, and in a strange way. It would restart, but crashed again and again. I got a notice saying my Chrome settings file was corrupt. I guess the virus was hijacking. I reinstalled Chrome and all was ok for a while. The next day, more crashes. Then, on a Canadian webpage, Chinese bottom-right virus popups, just like what 99% of people have here.


 * I've just finished overwriting my sys C: and data D: with my mirror hard disk. Hopefully that wasn't infected and the problem is done. Fingers crossed. I should have shut down, ripped out my mirror, and formatted my C: and D: from a floppy. I may pay a price for my easier route.


 * For years, I would never let my friends surf with my computer. And, if they have a USB stick in their hand, they have to stay out of the room entirely.


 * So, that's the last time I ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, go to a Chinese website.


 * Now I know why absolutely all of my Chinese friends have these viruses.


 * My suggestion to you? Don't ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, go to a Chinese website.


 * So, how to handle these two problems:
 * How do we check articles?
 * Wikipedia is carrying articles with links to instant viruses. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

SFSU Class Project: A New student group
Please see User:Anna Frodesiak/Violet sandbox Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Help with merger
Hello helpers! It looks like two students have independently started articles on the same place: Nantong Langshan and Wolf Hill Scenic Area. I looked at the merger guidelines, but since these are both student articles, with little involvement from others, I thought it might make sense to seek your advice. Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 00:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing it out. I've requested a history merger. Please see here. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Live help - more helpers needed
Hi folks, the live help channel at #en-nnu-help no longer seems to get many (or any) helpers signing on, but does still occasionally get students asking for help. The last four students that I've seen enter the channel asking for help, all left without an answer because no-one was there to respond to them (and I was away). Whenever you happen to be available and can manage being in an additional (quiet) channel, please remember to join there. Thanks! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Image Copyright
Can someone please remind the class that Commons can only accept Public Domain or Freely-licensed images and that if they get an image from somewhere else, they need to note both the URL (if applicable) and the specific license under which it is licensed?

I ran through maybe half of this Project's members' uploads to Commons and found that there are several images up for deletion discussion at and commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Nanjing Normal University Model United Nations Association (I nominated the last set). Additionally, File:Hongmei Park, Jiasha Tower.jpg and File:Hongmei Park, Outlook.jpg have been listed as missing copyright information. I've also asked for Chinese-language help with an image at commons:Commons:Village pump/Copyright, as File:24 201011062036001Q55z thumb.jpg appears to be sourced to a search engine result. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 22:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, if they upload images to Commons, they may want to consider setting their preferences there to notify them by e-mail if their user talk pages are changed, as such notifications will be left at Commons, not at the English Wikipedia. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 22:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Will remind. In fact, the instructions given to them were that only their own photos were acceptable. I don't understand the issues well enough myself to be able to give them more sophisticated advice. Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 17:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you. If you want to refer them to me for help sourcing/licensing photos that aren't their own, I'd be happy to help out at either User talk:Philosopher or commons:User talk:Philosopher.  But it's up to you whether you want to go down that (potentially tricky) path, of course. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 01:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

IRC channel #en-nnu-help
Is it really wise to create another help channel int he IRC at for the same purpose like ? There is defacto no helpers in and many helpees don't get the help they need, because nobody is helping/recognizing them! Maybe change the channel to #wikipedia-en-help because all there might be able to help. mabdul 14:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support  —  Jeff G. ツ  (talk)   15:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Support Good thinking, Mabdul. The nnu channel had traffic ages ago. Now, it's a dead room, and students should know to go to wikipedia-en-help. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:50, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Call for Comments/Commendations
Dear helpers, On behalf of all of us at NNU, thank you for all your dedicated assistance throughout the term. The students will take their exams on the 21st and 22nd, and after that I will begin assessing student performance. The Wikipedia project constitutes 25% of each student's mark. I have asked students to provide me with a report and self-assessment, and of course I will look at all their contributions. However, I wanted to give our helpers and observers the opportunity to call my attention to students who have particularly stood out in their work, dedication or attitude. I will watch this space. With gratitude and best wishes for the season (including Spring Festival next month!),

Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 04:59, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to start final assessment now, so any comments would need to reach me in the next few days. Thanks！ Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 08:11, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Help with merge
Hello, could someone help merging The Shepherd SuWu with Su Wu? Or would a redirect be more appropriate? Thank you,

Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 05:20, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll look after that Monday or so. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:27, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, if someone could sort out which goes into which and what the finished product will look like, then I will do the rest. Please, just dump the finished text into one of my sandboxes and let me know which is the destination article, and I will do it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Well unfortunately the new article seems to have little that wasn't in the earlier one, except this comment, which is not referenced and based on the dates seems to be the wrong chanyu: "Uwei Chanyu gave him a flock of sheep and said he would not be allowed to return to his own country until the male sheep was pregnant." So perhaps a redirect is appropriate?

Njnu-ban-xueshenghao (talk) 09:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC)