Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christian music/Archive 1

Goals

 * 1) Improve Wikipedia's coverage of Christian music, by improving articles related to the subject.
 * 2) Make a standard for articles relating to Christian music. — ✅ — See the proposed article structures page.
 * 3) Maintain and improve the Christan music portal.
 * 4) Integrate Infobox Musical artist into pages on artists and groups.
 * 5) Integrate Infobox Album into all Christian music album pages.
 * 6) Develop a standard for article assessments within the WikiProject (i.e. what makes a "B-Class" article? what makes a "start-Class" article?).

Genre Assignment
Since there are editors for various genres of Christian music, might I suggest that each editor take the genre that they have knowledge of and act as a lead editor for that genre. Then at some point we can change genres at the request of said editor and add and check each others work to make sure that we are not leaving factors out. This way we are not double working and running over each others edits which could lead us into an edit wars at some point. Does anyone have any input about this suggestion? Junebug52 05:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I will be happy to start with Christian country music since that is an article I started and have knowledge of the artists involved. Junebug52 05:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I only work on Contemporary Christian Music articles because that is the only genre of Christian music that I have background in. As for taking the lead, I prefer to be active in writing some article content, involved in some WikiProject discussion, but not be a genre lead per se. I don't look at WikiProject has having a leader, but as a series of equals discussing how to best deal with the problems that come up. I keep busy with being a member of many WikiProjects plus updating the Did You Know section on the main page since I'm an admin. Let me know if you ever would like to access the contents of a deleted article. Shouldn't this discussion be happening exclusively at the new WikiProject talk page? Royal broil  05:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Standardized lead proposal
I'd like to see if we can develop a standardized lead paragraph for the genre/subgenre pages within Christian music. The following is my proposed text:


 * " [Genre name]  (sometimes marketed as [other music industry names] ) is music that is written to express either personal or a communal belief regarding Christian life, as well as (in terms of the varying music styles) to give a Christian alternative to mainstream secular music.


 * Like other forms of music the creation, performance, significance, and even the definition of [Genre name] music varies according to culture and social context. [Genre name] music is composed and performed for many purposes, ranging from aesthetic pleasure, religious or ceremonial purposes, or as an entertainment product for the marketplace. However, a common theme of most Christian music is praise, worship or thanks to God and/or Christ."

Please edit and provide comments. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 15:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Source Question
NOTE: I'm posting this on both WikiProject Christian music and WikiProject Christian Metal to get some help on this subject.

I'm not going to give out a link for my site but I started using the mediawiki software to start my own Christian Music Wiki with my own criteria and my own rules. So when quoting and getting info I have different standards then this wiki.

So here's the question, for this wiki what can I do with unsourced information? Let's be honest a lot of things have happened in Christian music that are not documented or come from pages that some people on this wikipedia would call into question.

For example I have tapes of Lightmusic and CCMTV when they were on the air in my area. Lightmusic heavily promoted DC Talk's Free at Last the movie. Can I just add this info without having a source? Again I want to help out but can I add this info without being able to really show the source? What about what Toby Mac said at Creation Festival about their (DC Talk) mainstream push? I'm not sure this was ever documented in any magazine or online.

I also used to do my own sort of archiving of Christian music in the 90's. I have an e-mail from Bride explaining that they were e-mail bombed by Dial the Truth Ministries for objecting to Bride being on their page. I believe I saved the diary of Keith Bannister of Mortification talking about how Steve Rowe was doing with cancer. I think I even saved the pages dealing with Stryper and the mexican incident. I even got to talk to people like Rod Feltman of Sardonyx who told me why they never signed a contract.

Some of these things I know are documented in magazines and online but overall I find info on the net lacking information on Christian Music, hence why I have my own wiki and want to help out here.

But can I add these things without much controversy here? Do you think I would have to have some way of proving what I know? I really need some input because I don't want to start a big controversy here after editing a couple of pages. I would like to work with the community and do things the right way.

Any feedback is appreciated.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 16:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry that I didn't get back to you. I have just added this talk page to my watchlist so that I won't miss comments/questions again.


 * You sure are right about the difficulty finding sources that other Wikipedians consider reliable. They just don't understand the Christian music scene at all. I created articles for well-known reliable sources just to get them nominated for deletion. One of the main emphasis of this new WikiProject needs to be coming up with a way to deal with this problem. To prove notability of artists by WP:BAND we need a list of reliable sources. A list of national Christian radio networks from various countries need to be compiled and voted upon so that they can be cited in deletion discussions. We finally have an admin in myself that can undelete appropriate articles that get speedy deleted (of course after discussion with the deleting admin). It was hard to keep contributors at the former Contemporary Christian music (CCM) because of all of these deletions, especially after seeing the Nevertheless (band) article speedy deleted when nearly every criteria of WP:BAND was met.


 * Any source that was televised at any point should be cited with the Cite episode template if it is controversial. It's hard to say about your other comments since I haven't worked with you before. I would rather add the citation-needed template than remove content when I know it comes from someone reliable like you seem to be. Other contributors probably won't be as leniant. I'd say add it and hope that it doesn't get removed. It depends how controversial the comment is. Uncontroversial things don't need to be sourced. I wouldn't try to attempt Good Article status with unsourced facts.


 * I appreciate that you want to do things the right way. That's the way that I operate too. Cheers! Royal broil  01:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback. Like I told some other people I have my own wiki I'm working on.  So when I add things there I'll see if they work here.  I have a pretty extensive collection of magazines, which I actually just got access to (had a lot of things in storage.)  So I'm going to go through the issues one by one and start adding info that way.  It's just going to take a long time, but I'm in it for the long haul.  As I explained in the other thread I have a pretty extensive video collection also.  So I'll try and add what I can as time allows. OfficialDoughboy (talk) 16:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Your help is appreciated. Royal broil  17:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Canadian Christian Music
To find Canadian Christian Music, I recommend that you visit my project called ChristianMedia.ca at http://www.christianmedia.ca

We are writing a history of Canadian Christians involved in media including musicians and bands.

DavidSpencer.ca (talk) 21:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Christian music template
The template links to several articles which no longer exist. Those articles which do exist are in pretty poor shape. As this template appears on many of the main articles for this Wikiproject, I thought I would ask for some input. These articles include: Christian alternative rock, Christian rock, Contemporary Christian music, Jesus music, Christian metal, Christian hip hop, Christian punk, Christian hardcore, Christian entertainment industry, among others.

I am of the belief that rather than fixing the template, it should be removed entirely from the articles in question, and be replaced with, as is seen on Christian music. -- PEPSI2786talk 05:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If I remember correctly these were all at one time listed as subgenre pages under Contemporary Christian music. It may be best to merge the relevant information from them into the main Christian music article or into the Contemporary Christian music page and make it a subgenre of Christian music. If the articles remain I definately encourage the use of .  Absolon S. Kent (talk) 11:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that christian music should be replaced with Infobox Music genre. I think that there should be enough material to have article on each of these genre. Wouldn't the Contemporary Christian music article get too big if these all were merged, or isn't there much worth saving in the article? Royal broil  14:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay. After a second look (this time in the morning) I realized that these would probably be too large for a merger of that scale. Does anyone have an object to making these articles all subgenres of Contemporary Christian music and whatever music style they are related too? Absolon S. Kent (talk) 14:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by that? Royal broil  14:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I mean could you use an example to explain how this might be implemented. Royal broil  15:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * See the example on the Christian country music. I listed it in the lead as a subgenre of Christian music and Country music. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 11:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well done. I would expect it to be done the way you did it. Royal broil  13:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Archiving previous WikiProjects
User:Absolon:, you're a member of the WikiProject Council. Would you archive or somehow note that the previous WikiProjects are no longer active and are archived? Royal broil 03:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't want to shut down the other projects until I got feedback from the Southern Gospel and Christian Metal users (just in case there are any objections). If there are none by next week I will list the projects as closed and update the Council directory. As a note I made an entry in the directory that the merger is in the proposal status last week. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 11:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the update. Royal broil  13:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll sign up again...
After an extended Wikibreak (of sorts, minus a brief update of the RPM and Give My All pages), I am back, and ready to help out with WPCM. :-) --3M163//Complete Geek 10:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Welcome back and welcome to the project. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 11:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Christian Metal
With all respect to this project, The WikiProject Christian Metal is not willing to merge. The members of our project are as interested in heavy metal music in general as they are in Christian lyrics. Many of the WP:CMM members are also members of the WP:HMM but not many of us are members of Christian music projects in general. Christian metal is as much a subgenre of heavy metal music as a subgenre of Christian music. There was some kind of misuderstanding with the merge. Personally I though it was about forming a union between projects, not forming a one project and removing the rest. It really would not make sense to merge Christian metal with Christian music project since there are a lot more articles within our scope than within any other Christian music project's. A lot of the other Christian music projects are interested in softer styles of music, but we, for the most part, are not. WP:CMM is also not inactive, currently the members are just more busy writing articles than updating the project page. Good luck on the project and no hard feelings. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If you note most of the members of the other projects simply became members of the specific work groups in the new project (i.e. the former CCM Project members are now members of the CCM work group). The thought was that by combining the projects we could unify efforts in editing and formatting the various genre articles. I hope that you will discuss with the members of your project and reconsider. I will leave your work group active and reopen your original project with the Wikipedia council until you a reach consensus. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 13:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you guys are getting a bit overprotective of your Wikiproject, and not looking at things horribly rationally, myself. I think being a subordinate task force is really about the same as being a separate Wikiproject, only there isn't as much duplication of effort and it's easier to work together. But if you disagree, then I suppose that's entirely up to you. -- PEPSI2786talk 17:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Whatever WikiProject Christian Metal members decide is fine with me. It should default to keep except if consensus is to change IMHO. Royal broil  18:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:Christianmusic
Hey, I saw you were going through and changing the importance tags on all of the articles, and I have to say, I'm entirely confused. Are you changing all bands, singers, etc. to low importance? If so... why? WikiProject_Christian_music/Assessments, has a system for importance which I've been attempting to follow as I have been rating things, and bands such as dc Talk are certainly far more than a low according to that scale. -- PEPSI2786talk 20:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I was making adjustments to the importance categories. We seem to be all over the map on the importance ratings. We have GA-class and Stub-class articles marked with High importance. I jumped in with both feet and decided to rate the importance as follows (hope it makes sense):
 * Top importance = The article is about one of the core topics of Christian music (i.e. Christian music
 * High importance = The article is about significant aspects of Christian music (i.e. Contemporary Christian music, Gospel music, Southern Gospel, and other genre pages)
 * Mid importance = The article is significant in multiple areas of Christian music (i.e. various record labels, news and magazine articles, etc.)
 * Low importance = The article is about a highly specialized topic (this is where most of our article will probably be)
 * I was trying to organize the most important articles to the project so those can be the focus of our efforts. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 20:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Importance Ratings
My only concern is that your rating system is a bit too bottom heavy. Perhaps combine the top two categories into Top Importance, move Mid up to High, and add in a Mid category for extremely important aspects within one of our areas, such as famous bands, or whatever, and let the low importance stuff include the less important bands. I don't think it's right for a band like dc talk or Jars of Clay to be rated as low importance, when it's going to be getting a lot more traffic than a band like Blaster the Rocket Man, and therefore needs to be of a higher quality. -- PEPSI2786talk 03:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would put dc talk and Jars of Clay both at "High" importance because they are well known even to mainstream audiences (especially Jars of Clay). Royal broil  03:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought about something like what Pepsi proposed, but again I ran into the problem of subjective assessments. Bands and artists that are will known to me (Urban contemporary Gospel), may not be as well known to someone else (Southern Gospel or Christian metal). Would it help to have a criteria for importance as well as class (maybe artists with two major awards rated as high or artists with more than one Billboard Chart ranking, GA status automatically makes it)? We could post the criteria on the Project's assessments page. I'm open to any ideas that we can use fairly across the project. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 10:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Importance assessment in inherently subjective. I've worked with it before at my other numerous WikiProjects. The real key IMHO is to assess how it that topic is perceived to the general public. So artists that have mainstream success should be assessed as having higher importance than those that didn't. Non-subjective criteria is probably not the way to go since there's too many variables - the whole list of accomplishments needs to be looked at. Since most Christian musicians don't have mainstream success, articles in this WikiProject skew lower than almost every other WikiProject. That's unavoidable and not too important. Assessment needs to be something that anyone can change if someone strongly disagrees and compromises should be discussed and made on the article's talk page. A GA & FA quality assessment, of course, are only made after passing through the formal GA & FA assessment process. Royal broil  14:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Steve Scott (poet) up for deletion
Steve Scott (poet) is up for deletion. He has had some role in the early history of CCM (work with The 77s, Charlie Peacock, etc). However, secondary references to support his notability seem lacking, which seems to be the main issue with the AfD. Dl2000 (talk) 04:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You may wish to check All Music Guide or Internet Movie Database to see if he's listed. Generally you can find information on one of these two sites that will help you meet the notability guidelines. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 04:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Project banner
Right now, your project banner doesn't include separate assessment data for the various workgroups, which could be a deterrent to getting a lot of people working on the work groups. If you would wish, I could adjust the banner so that each work group has its own statistics summary chart. Please let me know if you would want such a change to the banner. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 14:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I support that change. Royal broil  02:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please do. -- <b style="color:blue;">PEPSI2786</b><b style="color:#000000;">talk</b> 06:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support -- Absolon S. Kent (talk) 14:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible additional task force
Does anyone think that there are enough articles or interest out there on individual songs within the scope of this project to justify a task force to deal exclusively with songs? John Carter (talk) 14:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know if our current project membership would allow such a task force, but I think it is a great idea. Hopefully we can increase the numbers and get it going. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 14:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree at this time. Royal broil  02:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible bot tagging of articles and question regarding which articles to tag for which groups
There are quite a few articles that fall within the scope of this project which haven't yet been tagged. I had raised a request for a bot to do such tagging, and was advised that I hadn't actually gotten any approval from the more established members of the project for doing so. Having the banner placed in the various relevant articles would better publicize the project, and give it a better idea of what content is out there. I also have one other question myself, regarding tagging for the various work groups. Would you all want articles which fall within the scope of more than one group, say "Southern Gospel" and "Albums", to be tagged for both work groups, only one (if so, which?), or just left within the scope of the "parent" project? The list of categories which fall within the Category:Christian music can be found at User:John Carter/Christian music categories. John Carter (talk) 22:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think Royal can probably help with the bot request. I support assigning the articles to both work groups (i.e. a Southern Gospel album should be assigned to the Southern Gospel Work Group and the Album work group}. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 01:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Certainly any admin in good standing like yourself would easily be approved for an autowikibrower - all you have to do is ask. Or do you mean a regular bot? I will back you up either way if my support is helpful. Tell me where. I finally got a job after graduating college (for the second time), and I'm too busy with real life learning what it takes to be a computer help desk person and the latest office suite to do a lot of AWB stuff or Wikipedia right now. I support adding articles to multiple task forces if they are at all relevant. Some songs, albums, and artists belong in multiple genres and thus multiple taskforces. If an article is marked into at least one task force, then it should be included in the scope of that taskforce and not tagged with the parent WikiProject. Royal broil  02:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically, I was figuring on listing the request at Bot requests, where it would be done more easily and quickly. There are at least two bots which will tag automatically any articles in a given category as requested. And, actually, the tag would be for both the subproject and parent project, although potentially there might be separate importance assessments between the two, so that a given article might receive a higher or lower importance ranking to different task forces and/or the parent project, depending on their relative importance to each. John Carter (talk) 18:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would support the idea of the articles being tagged with each task force it is appropriate to, not simply to the parent project. -- <b style="color:blue;">PEPSI2786</b><b style="color:#000000;">talk</b> 07:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject banner on article talk pages
The main WikiProject page is missing this information. Would someone please add what text needs to be added to the talk pages of articles in this WikiProject, along with the options for the various task forces? I need to add Stephanie Smith to the WikiProject. Royal broil 23:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Instructions were moved to Project banner instructions. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 15:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

List of contemporary Christian music record labels
A couple of comments: 1. I think List of contemporary Christian music record labels should be renamed/moved to "List of Christian music record labels" or even just "List of Christian record labels" and I might use the BOLD way of just changing it and seeing if anyone changes later, however, I though I'd ask here first. First of all, I think "Contemporary Christian" should not be used anymore with music unless it is referring to adult contemporary/pop Christian music. Christian music labeled as Hip-hop, hardcore, punk, etc should not be associated with "contemporary" although this is just my opinion.

2. Is there a way to better sync Category:Christian record labels with the list. I could take the time to manually sync them, but if either changes later, it will get out of sync again. Din't know if there's a cool Wiki feature to do this, since I'm new to contributing.

3. Just wanted to say hi and think its cool that there's a project for everything related to Christian music. I hope to contribute well. Just to let you all know, I'm pretty knowledgeable on Christian hip hop and Christian electronica (which is not created yet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lefton4ya (talk • contribs)


 * Concur with #1. For #2 you can simply add "see also Category:Christian record labels" to the article. On #3, Christian electronica was periously merged into Contemporary Christian music (see Christian electronic music redirect page). Absolon S. Kent (talk) 15:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Made the changes (including move/rename) to List of Christian record labels. Also modified List of Christian electronic/dance artists.  I will work later this week on creating (non-redirect) page for Christian electronic music, but will to do research and references in addition to my knowledge.  --Lefton4ya (talk) 05:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea, Wikipedia contributors have become real strict about including citations from reliable sources. Wikipedia was getting beat up by the media for being unreliable, which was justified. Articles lacking reliable sources are frequently targeted for deletion except if they obviously need to be kept.


 * Before the various Christian music WikiProject were combined recently, there was a merge of several genres of Christian music like Christian electronic music into Contemporary Christian music. It never made sense to me and I would be willing to battle to get it undone. There should easily be enough content to justify an article on each genre of music if there is someone knowledgable and resourceful enough to do the writing. Here is the article before it was deletion, so that you have a starting point to copy from. Here is the deletion discussion. Note that I commented to merge to save the content: I would have commented Keep had there been more content or any kind of support before me. Royal broil  12:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just so I'm clear on how you guys are proceeding: are you proposing that the various subgenres of Contemporary Christian music be broken out again into separate articles or are you looking to beef up the subsections in the main article? On the Gospel music page, you will note that the consensus was to make that article very broad and give most of the details (history, representative artists, etc.) on the subgenre pages. This prevented a lot of warring over the history of Gospel music and such. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 13:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Coordinators for the Christianity projects
I have recently started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity regarding the possibility of the various Christianity projects somewhat integrating, in the style of the Military history project, for the purposes of providing better coordination of project activities. Any parties interested in the idea, or perhaps willing to offer their services as one of the potential coordinators, is more than welcome to make any comments there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 20:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Article structure
When creating some CCM-related articles recently, I had noticed something on the proposed structures page for this WikiProject that didn't seem correct. It lists "External links" as coming before References in all three Christian-music article types (artists, bands and albums). I really think this ought to be changed, since if you look at any decent music-related FAs, GAs or even B-class articles, the Notes/Refs (section where in-line, or other, citations are listed) always come first, which is how most/all Wikipedia articles are arranged. Am I misinformed about something here? If not, wouldn't it be best for that page to be changed to "References" coming before "External links" as the structure? Let me know of your feedback on that. -- Jamie  S93  18:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if it really matters what order they come in. I think the original intent may have been to put less emphasis on the external links since they seem to be a problem around the project and Wikipedia as a whole. The change in the proposed structure can certainly be made if that is the project consensus. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 19:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I strongly agree with Jamie, definitely change the order. Almost every article in Wikipedia has the references above external links. References are way more important because they helped build the article. External links are an afterthought. Royal broil  19:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback! Since there's no opposition, I'm going to change it to external links coming after refs. -- Jamie  S93  14:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Coordinator?
It has probably been noticed by most of the editors who frequent this page that there is often a pronounced degree of overlap between the various projects relating to Christianity. Given that overlap, and the rather large amount of content we have related to the subject of Christianity, it has been proposed that the various Christianity projects select a group of coordinators who would help ensure the cooperation of the various projects as well as help manage some project related activities, such as review, assessment, portal management, and the like. Preferably, we would like to consider the possibility of having one party from each of the major Christianity projects included, given the degree of specialization which some of the articles contain. We now are accepting nominations for the coordinators positions at WikiProject Christianity/Coordinators/Election 1. Any parties interested in helping performing some of the management duties of the various Christianity projects is encouraged to nominate themselves there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Notability of band members
Recently, the article about lead singer John Cooper (musician) was redirected to the page about his band Skillet, for notability concerns (WP:MUSIC) by User:Pastordavid. I then reverted this edit, giving the reason that it wasn't consistent with the other members (1, 2, 3, 4) which would be non-notable, as well. This resulted in a discussion here and here, with a suggestion to take it to the WikiProject-level for a group consensus. How do you all think this should be handled, i.e. which of the members' articles ought to redirect to Skillet (band)? -- Jamie  S93  13:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I'll probably get in trouble for this but here's how I look at it. Wikipedia does have the guidelines saying what is notable and what is not.  In some of those discussions it was pointed out that there was more then those pages that also violate the policy.  So I decided to do some perusing around some notable (ie famous) bands on the site.  When looking at the musicians in Aerosmith I noticed these pages 1 2 I just kind of find it interesting that they exist and then a nobility tag gets put on the Skillet member pages.  Isn't Skillet grammy nominated?  I would say some of the pages could stay, like John Cooper but the others probably will have to go since they don't have enough information up yet.  I don't think there are any easy answers to this so a compromise will have to be met.  And this is where I'm going to stir the pot, and I could be totaly wrong on this one, but what is nobility?  I don't care about mainstream acts.  There are bands I don't like that are popular and I understand that it would be bias to eliminate pages based on personal preference but who says the nobility guidelines are right?  I'm thinking of adding a page on Rage of Angels.  Based soley on the fact that there album was put out after much controversy and re-edits and the fact that they broke before the album came out.  But to add them I have to point out that they were members of Steelheart because of nobility guidelines.  Is that right?  I can't myself answer that one because I understand the reason for the guidelines.  Remember we aren't paying the bill for the servers and bandwidth.  That's why my opinion is follow the guidelines agreed upon and if you don't agree download mediawiki pay for hosting and set up your own wiki.  Or get a page on Wikia which offeres free mediawiki's pre-setup.  The honest truth is a lot of christian musicians and bands that should be up here will probably not meet guidelines.  Feel free (anyone to disagree) like I said I could be totally off base on this one.  Oh well there's my two cents that probably will be ignored anyways.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 16:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Craig's Brother up for deletion
The page for this former Tooth & Nail Records band is up for deletion: Articles for deletion/Craig's Brother. Dl2000 (talk) 02:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Christian Rock project or subproject
Can we start a Christian Rock project, the articles need a heck of a lot of work and a project would make it easier to collaborate. Saksjn (talk) 13:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There is already a Contemporary Christian music workgroup which covers many of the Christian Rock articles. There is also a seperate Christian metal music wikiproject. -- Absolon S. Kent (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There are users that would rather work just on Christian Rock and not have to weed through CCM articles. Besides... it would take a lot of workload off of the CCM project. Saksjn (talk) 12:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My proposal would be to make a formal proposal at WikiProject Council/Proposals, add links to the proposal on the talk pages of various relevant articles, and see if it gets enough interest displayed on that page to be a likely success. John Carter (talk) 14:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You should consider a task force instead of a full WikiProject because there's a lot less overhead for a task force.


 * The distinction between Christian rock and CCM is often subtle and gray. How do you propose a distinct break between the two so that both sides would know which one should work on a specific article?  Royal broil  14:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Concur with Royal on establishing a task force in the current project. A full project would create more cross over on articles like the current status with the Christian Metal WikiProject. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 16:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Some bands fall into Christian Rock and CCM, but many don't. For example, Tooth and Nail bands are mostly (not always) considered Christian Rock, but are not considered CCM. Some more examples: Switchfoot, Underoath, and others like them. Saksjn (talk) 13:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I argue that the many bands like Switchfoot are both CCM and Christian Rock. The use of the word "rock" in Christian music is different than mainstream. There is a huge difference between them and Plumb (singer), Nevertheless (band), Rush of Fools to name a few. A lot of people use the term "Christian Rock" to mean CCM or anything faster/rockier than Adult Contemporary. How could you define the group that your talking about with the term "Christian Rock" being used incorrectly by a wide audience?  Royal broil  13:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ...and I don't think that there is enough interest in creating a separate Christian Rock task force. There are very few contributors working on CCM articles, so why split up something so small?  Royal broil  14:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: Discussion moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christian music/Contemporary Christian music. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 13:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Anyone wanna help me with this?
I noticed there isn't an article for the band Ever Stays Red. I'll set up the main portion of the site if someone wants to help with the information, discography, and sources, feel free! (please notify me on my talk page and I'll get it started) &lt;/post&gt; Geek45 (talk) 23:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Need Help and Additional Comments
The articles As I Lay Dying and Underoath have editors that believe Chrsitian Bands do not play Chrsitian music... It seems odd to me, and since you guys are the primary wikiproject, I'm asking you to please comment and help with the editing conflict.

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  22:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Reliable Sources
I might be mistaken; but I don't think ChristianRock.Net is a reliable source. The Skillet article has multiple references to it. --Kraftlos (talk) 01:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Hail Satan
Members of this project might be interested in the AfD for the above-named article. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  07:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Richard Smallwood
I was wondering if someone could have a look at the article Richard Smallwood. I've been forced to add a npov tag as the writing is not really neutral. For instance, it says:
 * World-class composer, pianist and arranger, Richard Smallwood has clearly and solidly changed the face of Gospel music.

Could someone have a look and see if they can fix this? I'm afraid that Gospel music is just not my specialty. - Tbsdy lives (talk) 08:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Christian music
A collection of Wikipedia articles is being collected together as Wikipedia 0.7. This collection will be released on DVD later this year, and will be available for free download. The Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles; a team of copyeditors has agreed to help improve the writing upon request.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team, SelectionBot 20:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Return of DantheCowMan
Hello everybody. Its good to see the growth here, and since I don’t know everyone I thought I’d properly re-introduce myself. I am Dan, the Cow Man. I will be available for several months and have quite a backlog of edits to do. Feel free to drop me a line as necessary. Finally, I look forward to working with all of you. Dan, the CowMan (talk) 02:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's good to hear from you again. I have enjoyed working with you too. Happy editing!  Royal broil  13:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey Dan, the Cow Man. Quick question: in the 7Ball page, you scanned the front cover of the July/August 1999 issue. I would love to have a copy of this issue, or at least page through it. At which library did you find it (or do you own it)? Any assistance that you can provide is much appreciated. Thanks! --198.109.173.45 (talk) 16:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ...and since I do not have a wikipedia account, please reply to (email address removed). Thanks again! --198.109.173.45 (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Kevin Prosch
Noticed that Kevin Prosch page wasn't part of the Christian Music project. Do people think it should be. It certainly comes across as quite biased and generally uncylopedic. I'll try and do a few fixes myself. Calindreams (talk) 14:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The WikiProject Christian music/Structure page may help you with cleanup, but you may want to review Notability and decide how much effort you want to put into it before working. -- Absolon S. Kent (talk) 15:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Images from Inpop employee
An Inpop employee has a flickr account of free use images. Feel free to upload anything interesting, although use some care because some images are "all rights reserved". I have contacted the photographer Breezy through flickr's internal mail system. Kudos to User:Kaldari for finding the pictures!  Royal broil  13:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The Flickr image license check tool can be used to verify the image status. You can also find images by using the Flickr Creative Commons image search. -- Absolon S. Kent (talk) 02:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Church music/Sacred music
Hello.


 * 1) I was going to do some work in this area then realised there was a potential minefield. I created the category  and applied it to a few composers, then discovered there were other categories such as 'Christian composers' and so on.  I don't think the latter is quite right, since it implies the composer was a Christian, and would therefore include composers of secular music who happened to profess christianity, as well as potentially excluding non-believers who had written Christian or sacred music.  There are also many composers (S.S. Wesley e.g.) who are not covered at all.
 * 2) There is amazingly no article on Church music itself, which redirects to Christian music, and which is a mess.  Any decent article would need to cover the history of Church music as such, but I don't see one.  I am going to make a start, any help would be appreciated .  [Edit] - I have now written Church music from scratch.

The Land Surveyor (talk) 11:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * How about "Composers of sacred music" or Composers of Christian music?  Royal broil  19:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes that will do. Thanks.  The Land Surveyor (talk) 18:33, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Sacred Concerts
There is a new stub which I'd like to recommend to your loving care: Duke Ellington's Sacred Concerts. Also, maybe you'll have to contribute something to the disambiguation page Sacred Concert. &mdash; Sebastian 06:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)