Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity in India/Archive 2

Coordinators' working group
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. &mdash; Delievered by §hepBot  ( Disable )  on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 05:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Discussion regarding project organization
Any comments regarding the structure and function of Christianity related material are welcome at WikiProject Christianity/General Forum. Be prepared for some rather lengthy comments, though. There is a lot of material to cover there. John Carter (talk) 17:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Article alerts
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Thanks. — Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 09:15, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

History of Christianity in India
First an article History of Christianity in India is badly needed. Plus while searching for Thomas Valpy French, I found this Boston University site with a vast archive of 18-19th century documents of missionary work in India. Here is one such link [http://digilib.bu.edu/dspace/handle/2144/765 Our missions in India 1834-1924, by Rev. E.M. Wherry. (Elwood Morris), 1843-1927. (Boston, Mass., Stratford Co., 1926., 1926] and [Other links related to India can be found here --[[User:Ekabhishek|Ekabhishek]] (talk) 06:44, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Some one who is a regular reader of Indian Church History Review can help in this. This is published bi-yearly since 1976 or so.

There are many articles in this with history of Christianity of each state. Pamparam (talk) 01:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Consultation on renaming article: Roman Catholic Church --> Catholic Church
Wikipedians at Talk:Roman Catholic Church/Mediation on Naming Convention are discussing the merits of changing the article name as such. Roman Catholic Church → Catholic Church. Please share your opinions there. -- Carlaude talk 12:02, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Coordinator elections
Any parties interested in being one of the coordinators of WikiProject Christianity and its various related projects is encouraged to list themselves as a candidate at WikiProject Christianity/Coordinators/Election 2. It would be particularly beneficial if we had individuals from as broad a range of areas of the project as possible, to help ensure that we have people knowledgable about the widest range of content possible. John Carter (talk) 20:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

About the articles on Saint Thomas Christians common history
This is continuation of the discussion at Talk:Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani

There are Six articles which claim common history of Saint Thomas Christians out of this 4 have almost similar contents about the same period.


 * 1.	Holy Apostolic Throne of St. Thomas
 * 2.	Malankara Church – Same period- Similar content
 * 3.	Saint Thomas Christian tradition - Same period- Similar content
 * 4.	History of the Saint Thomas Christians – Same period- Similar content
 * 5.	Malankara Metropolitans
 * 6.	Syrian Malabar Nasrani – Same period- Similar content

Earlier there were only two main articles about common history. Those were Syrian Malabar Nasrani and Saint_Thomas Christian tradition named as Saint Thomas Christians.

Right now all of these 4 articles has mis quoted references with out any consideration of facts.

I propose to keep two main articles about Saint Thomas Christians Syrian Malabar Nasrani and Saint_Thomas Christian tradition with a defined scope for each so that new articles with same scope are not created again. After the scope is defined and the article is formed, the other two articles scope History of the Saint Thomas Christians and Malankara Church can be defined and may be can be included as subpages for the main articles with defined scope.


 * The Scope of the Syrian Malabar Nasrani article was from a cultural, social and ethnic perspective from the common shared period. Some of these social and cultural practice exist is varying levels in every denominations. Overtly Jewish hypothesis has been added in that article with misquoting references. As a shared article, I recommend the following sections for this article,


 * Origins
 * Hypothesis about Origin
 * Social Customs and traditions
 * 1.Folk Songs
 * 2.Margam Kali
 * 3.New born Ceremony
 * 4.Marriage Ceremony
 * 5.Death Ceremony
 * Manner of Worship
 * 1.Churches
 * 2.Sacraments
 * 3.Liturgy
 * Epigraphy
 * Nasrani Symbol
 * Old Manuscripts

I recommend re-naming the Saint Thomas Christian tradition as Saint Thomas Christians and adding following sections for the article,


 * Rough Chronology
 * Early traditions with the Apostle St. Thomas
 * Early East Syriac Period
 * Medieval period
 * Early Bishops
 * Arrival of Portuguese
 * Division
 * Arrival of Dutch
 * Malabar Catholics History & Division
 * Malankara Syriac Orthodox History
 * Arrival of British
 * Further divisions in Syriac Orthodox
 * Religious Jurisdictions
 * Demography

Subpages can be used for lengthy sections. With this each of the seven churches can make a note about the main two articles for shared common history and the frequent changes and non sourced quotations can be avoided.

User:Student7 has made few recommendations which can be read in Talk:Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani Pamparam (talk) 00:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * As a follow up, I have put a note about the re-organization discussion in the following articles talk pages, by the hope that editors will participate.

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church,Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, Chaldean Syrian Church, Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church, Malabar Independent Syrian Church, Holy Apostolic Throne of St. Thomas, Malankara Church, Saint Thomas Christian tradition, History of the Saint Thomas Christians, Malankara Metropolitans, Syrian Malabar Nasrani.


 * There are lot of nonsense in each article from unreliable sources.Pamparam (talk) 03:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This is a good start towards discussing the direction in which the eight separate churches should go in using a common history, which they all share.


 * Discussing reliable sources is a major problems. As Pamparam has suggested, some material has been copied (wrongly BTW since it is copyrighted) from church brochures into various articles. A lot of that is myth. Worse, apparently solid reference material supports such myths as descent from 10 lost tribes, conversion of nobles, etc.


 * I don't think anyone is any longer really that sure how much influence Syrians had in the early church. They sent bishops and other representatives, but the depth of the churches acceptance is largely unknown and unknowable. Unlike the dryer climates, not a lot of written material survived locally to support any point of view on that topic. And so we are left with myth. Student7 (talk) 17:54, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * We may not be able to write a very comprehensive history as the topics are vast. But we can write based on the available documents ( documentary evidence) and re arrange the Reference section with detailed studies on each of these topics.

As noted this will help each of Saint Thomas Chrisitan denominations to write about themselves in the article than quoting nonsense apologetics written in 21 st century in their respective articles.

A simple reference should not be taken in account. Editors has to mention the source document the respective author has used even if the cited reference is from well known authors.

On the early east Syrian influence – The earliest surviving local document is written in 13th century and this says Metropolitan of India under Catholicos Yahballaha III ( 1281-1317) in 1301 AD was Bishop Jacob. The title of Metropolitan was “ Metropolitan and Door of All India”. In the Vatican MSS of 1301, the bishop is also named as “ Metropolitan and Director of the Holy Church in India “.

We have many reference from East Syriac sources about the relationship in earlier centuries.The Church was hierarchically dependent on the Church of Seleucia or Seleucia-Ctesiphon as noted from the documents.The Church obtained its own metropolitan see sometime in the 7th or 8th century.

From 1501 onwards, there are many documents about current Metropolitans and reference to early metropolitans. After the death of the last Chaldean Metropliten Mar Abhraham Portuguese sealed the trade route to ensure that no Bishops will come.

Among the Malankara Syriac Orthodx after the division, many Bishops and Catholics ordained by the Syriac Orthodx Patirach of Antioch came to Malabar. No sensible person will make a comment that they did not have any influence. One of the funniest remark I have read in some of the article that they came as Visitors. I read this term used for Catholics missionaires as well as Syriac Orthodox Bishops. This is complete nonsense. It is good that someone have not written they came for vacation.There are many proper documents about this exists to make note.


 * Should we create the two common articles in a sandbox and discuss it with out affecting the current article.Pamparam (talk) 19:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Historical India
When Europeans referred to "India", they were denoting the region around the Indus River, or what we would today call "Pakistan." This should influence what readers see when they run across "India" in ancient texts. This does not mean the rest of what we today, know as India.

This may influence the interpretation of remarks by European ancients about Thomas preaching "in India," and delegates being sent to Church councils "from India." Student7 (talk) 14:07, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of ancient Christian roots
A discussion of the actual Christian history prior to arrival of the Portuguese and a few years beyond, is taking place at File talk:Nasrani Evolution.jpg. We are trying to make decisions on WP:RELY references to use and the actual determination of facts as opposed to legend and myths. Please join us there if you are interested in being a part of the group that arrives at consensus on these determinations.Student7 (talk) 12:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I've been forced to change my mind. The file is being deleted! See next comment. Student7 (talk) 00:31, 10 February 2010 (UTC)