Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Archive 53

Lead for Mozart masses
After the move, I think we can't leave the lead sections of Mozart's masses the same without risking to be confusing. A extra problem is to bold all redirects and to avoid links from those bold redirects.

Example: The Missa brevis No. 1 in G major, K. 49/47d, is a mass composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in Vienna in the autumn of 1768.

"Mass" appears nowhere bold, we can't expect people to know that Missa is Latin for Mass, "No. 1" is unexplained.

The Mass in G major, K. 49, is a mass in G major by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He wrote the missa brevis in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. It is also known as his Missa brevis No. 1 and was formerly assigned K. 47d in the Köchel catalogue.

I adjusted my infobox suggestion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's confusing -- it doesn't need to be in boldface to be informative. There's too much tautology in "The Mass in G major, K. 49, is a mass in G major ...". Better to leave as is, imo. --Stfg (talk) 11:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, I find the "No. 1" confusing, but may be the only one. I also don't expect the general reader to be familiar with "Missa brevis". It needs some kind of link, but not from a bold section. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The Mass in G major, K. 49, is the first missa brevis by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He wrote it in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. It was formerly assigned K. 47d in the Köchel catalogue.
 * (or:) The Mass in G major, K. 49, is the first ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:45, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, that looks good. (I prefer the first version. If we really must wikilink keys, then we can do it later.) --Stfg (talk) 23:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Same for me, except: It was formerly assigned K. 47d in the Köchel catalogue &rarr; (see also my latest update to WP:NCM, to which this article title conforms). --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:51, 24 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The Mass in G major, K. 49, is the first missa brevis by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He wrote composed it in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. It was later re-assigned K. 47d in the Köchel catalogue. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:48, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Still prefer full name bolded on first appearance, without link to the key signature. Also this suggestion: He wrote it in Vienna in... &rarr; --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:14, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "composed" is fine and following Bach examples ;) - Two comments regarding the bolding: I like about not bold that the key is more clearly not part of the name, and where would you want the link to the key without being repetitive? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

(link for easy access to the page: K. 49)

First reiteration of the key (in third paragraph) works fine for me: "The mass is divided into six movements.
 * 1) "Kyrie" Adagio, G major, common time
 * "Kyrie eleison..." Andante, G major, 3/4
 * 1) "Gloria" Allegro, G major, common time
 * 2) "Credo" Allegro, G major, 3/4
 * "Et incarnatus est..." Poco Adagio, C major, cut common time
 * "Et resurrexit..." Allegro, G major, cut common time
 * "Et in Spiritum Sanctum..." Andante, C major, 3/4; bass solo
 * "Et in unam sanctam..." Allegro, G major, cut common time
 * 1) "Sanctus" Andante, G major, 3/4
 * "Pleni sunt coeli et terra..." Allegro, G major, 3/4
 * "Hosanna in excelsis..." Allegro, G major, 4/2
 * 1) "Benedictus" Andante, C major, 3/4; soloist quartet
 * "Hosanna in excelsis..." Allegro, G major, 4/2
 * 1) "Agnus Dei" Adagio, G major, cut common time
 * "Dona nobis pacem..." Allegro, G major, 3/8"

Re. "key ... not part of the name" — opinions differ. WP:NCM (first table, second example) clearly defines it as part of the generic name, neither more nor less part of the generic name as "Mass". --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

See also: WP:NCM: (bolding added) --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:51, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Re. infobox example: this is not a discussion of what it would preferably look like in the infobox, this is a discussion of the lede, per WP:BOLDTITLE (no mention of infoboxes in that part of the guideline). FWIW, I'd discuss the infoboxes later on. Most of the articles of this series would probably benefit from some updating/expansion before we can (re)consider introducing infoboxes I suppose. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:14, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This would work for me too:"The Mass in G major, K. 49 (K6 47d) is the first mass composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. It is a missa brevis that originated in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. ..."


 * ... and then link the first G major in the third paragraph as proposed above. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:33, 24 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "key part of the name", - I think not opinions differ but first cases differ. Mozart's mass has no true name at all, we name it, the key is given as a disambiguation because we don't have a better one, so is the catalogue number. Mass in G major is not a common name, I would think. In other cases, such as K.427, I believe that the key became part of the name, and would say Great Mass in C minor. But here opinions will differ. There is no infobox guideline for compositions, and it has already (by Finnusertop) ;) - I put one here (and only one) to show how much easier certain things can be shown at a glance than in prose, - in my opinion ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "... in G Major, K. 49" (copied from the listing of disk 111 here), definitely part of the common name. I use the expression "common name" as on the policy page WP:COMMONNAME, not as a sort of synonym to generic or non-generic name, which is something else. Generic vs. non-generic names for compositions are defined at WP:NCM. For some compositions the common name (in this sense) happens to be a generic name, in other cases it is a non-generic name. Sometimes the common name (both for the generic as the non-generic types) includes the key signature, often it doesn't.
 * Re. Great Mass in C minor:
 * non-generic for the "Great" (translation of Große), does not indicate a "type" of composition (as the additions "brevis", "longa", "solemnis" and "brevis et solemnis" do when added to "missa"), thus the name of that composition is italicized.
 * includes the key signature in the common name, as much as generic composition names can include the key signature in the common name, as for K. 49.
 * I've no problem discussing infoboxes. But again, other things probably need to be done first. One that keeps popping up is apparently encouraging editors in this field to familiarize themselves with WP:NCM, its guidance, its examples. As long as the understanding of that guideline (and of WP:COMMONNAME) is mushy, it is kinda useless to take the next step in the discussion as far as I'm concerned. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * (NB: "true name" is a virtually useless concept when discussing this. We already discussed the problematic nature of "actual name" somewhere else on this page: "true name" is worse, even more confusing, unneeded, and not used in the guideline) --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I would prefer:
 * The Mass in G major, K. 49, is the first mass by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He composed the missa brevis in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. ...
 * (no confusion by the other K number in the beginning - I would find it double confusing to not link K on the first number but link for the second, - active voice "he composed". ) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:15, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I prefer"The Mass in G major, K. 49 (K6 47d) is the first mass by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He composed the missa brevis in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. ..."


 * to:"The Mass in G major, K. 49, is the first mass by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He composed the missa brevis in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. It was later re-assigned K. 47d in the Köchel catalogue. ..."


 * imho 47d is a minor naming issue, says little or nothing about the composition as such, so it should be dealt with as close to the bolded name repeat as possible, without needing a full separate sentence. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:01, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a minor numbering issue, - that's exactly why I don't want to distract a reader by two links (to the catalogue and the explanation) before he even knows that it is a piece by Mozart. If we had an infobox, I would suggest to drop "47d" from the lead and mention it only there, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:04, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No, keep the disambiguation/naming info with the bolded name, before the remainder of the sentence that contains the short definition. That's how its usually done in Wikipedia, compare for instance the start of the Leoš Janáček article: "Leoš Janáček (, baptised Leo Eugen Janáček; 3 July 1854 – 12 August 1928) was a Czech composer, musical theorist, folklorist, publicist and teacher."


 * This is all the "crap" between the name and where the definition starts: "(, baptised Leo Eugen Janáček; 3 July 1854 – 12 August 1928)"


 * ...once all that is over the article can start, not needing to return to that info that has no real bearing on why the person is notable. I'd take a similar slant on whatever other article, including those on compositions. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Compare WP:LEADCLUTTER where this example is given of a first sentence from which all clutter is removed:"Genghis Khan ( or ,[1][2] ; Chingis/Chinghis Khan; 1162? – August 1227), born Temujin, was the founder and Great Khan (emperor) of the Mongol Empire, which became the largest contiguous empire in history after his demise."


 * By comparison the insertion "(K6 47d)"


 * appears neither invasive nor distracting to me.--Francis Schonken (talk) 12:19, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I better don't say what I think of these examples ;) - You know my solution, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:25, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"The Mass in G major (K. 49/47d) is the first mass by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He composed the missa brevis in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. ..." works for me too. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Minor change: bold the K number, but not the link, as a compromise:
 * The Mass in G major (K. 49/47d) is the first mass by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He composed the missa brevis in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No, more distracting, breaks the flow of the sentence more than either "The Mass in G major, K. 49 (K6 47d) is ..." or "The Mass in G major (K. 49/47d) is ...". imho, that is. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, I'd prefer the second: we can do the same everywhere, whether or not there's a different K6 number, whether or not the K. number is in the article title. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Should we do that, then? Any objecions? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:38, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The first sentence looks good to me. (About it being the name: it's what would appear in a concert programme, isn't it?, so I think this is the right way to do it.) The second sentence is a jolt -- mass // missa brevis -- a reader who didn't know otherwise could think that you're speaking of a different work. A way to avoid this would be: "It is a missa brevis, composed in Vienna in the autumn of 1768." (This also avoids the slight tautology of saying in one sentence that it's by Mozart and in the next that he composed it ) --Stfg (talk) 11:42, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It's a tautology for you who you know already that a mass may be a composition, and that Mozart was a composer. I believe that we should inform also people who don't know that, without making them click on Mozart's name. - I simplified the infobox, following a comment. I have no intention to "discuss" infobox here, just to show that some aspects can be seen more easily with parameters. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Please read my comment again, Gerda. I said nothing about the infobox, and the matter of the slight "tautology" was a parenthesis. The main point is the issue of saying "the missa brevis", and leaving the unaware reader wondering what missa brevis. (But everyone who would be capable of reading this article at all would know that Mozart was a composer, and the first sentence already says that this work is by him.) --Stfg (talk) 15:43, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I should not have added the second comment, completely unrelated to your remark, just in the same context. Imagining that everyone reading this article knows that Mozart is a composer ignores that the English Wikipedia is a reference for people around the globe who don't know it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

In fact I had already rewritten the intro of the article a few days ago, along with some other updates

If I jumped the gun, please improve. But indeed, when updating I chose a flow of sentences that sounded natural to me, and so I think I avoided the issue Stfg remarks upon. --Francis Schonken (talk) 03:14, 30 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for
 * The Mass in G major (K. 49/47d) is the first mass Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart composed. It is a missa brevis scored for SATB soloists, SATB choir, violin I and II, viola, and basso continuo. The mass was composed in Vienna in the autumn of 1768.
 * as an example. The idea of "concert program" (above) seems strange for a work meant to be performed in church services ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's much better. Two little things we could do: insert "that" to separate two blue links, and change the second "composed" to "written" to avoid the repetition. We'd then have:
 * The Mass in G major (K. 49/47d) is the first mass that Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart composed. It is a missa brevis scored for SATB soloists, SATB choir, violin I and II, viola, and basso continuo. The mass was written in Vienna in the autumn of 1768.
 * Gerda, these masses are now performed both in concerts and in church services. --Stfg (talk) 08:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, - I am a church choir singer, and all six groups with whom I have performed have sung masses in concert (one of them strictly only the two overlong ones, the Great Mass and the B minor, a year and a day ago and still present). However, I see no reason not to stress somewhere that the composer would have been surprised by hearing them in a concert. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

 * The Mass in G major (K. 49/47d) is the first full mass composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. It is a missa brevis scored for SATB soloists, SATB choir, violin I and II, viola, and basso continuo.


 * Mozart wrote the mass in Vienna in the autumn of 1768. It was however neither his first setting of a part of the mass ordinary — two years earlier he had already composed a Kyrie (K33) —, nor was it his largest composition with a religious theme up to date: his sacred musical play Die Schuldigkeit des ersten Gebots had been premiered in the previous year.

Better? --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:09, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

&rarr; I continued to redistribute some of the content somewhat more over the paragraphs and sections --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Superb, Francis! --Stfg (talk) 10:37, 30 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I like it! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)