Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Contemporary music task force/Archive 13

Petri Kuljuntausta
Please check this article urgently: I found a small section of copyvio from here during a random check. Is the rest copyvio too? The formatting suggests the probability anyway... (Addendum - The article has been almost exclusively edited by its creator who also created the related page Aureobel and worked on Phasing and other related topics.)  --Jubilee♫ clipman  17:04, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Slight change in tack again
From now on, I will only add the worst offenders of all to my list: unreferenced BLPs and potential CSDs. I'll be here for ever, otherwise! The list to K uses the previous approach (and don't forget A-E are in the archives still). Once the BLP storm has blown over, we can go through this list (and others in our care) with less urgency to check for other issues. --Jubilee♫ clipman 19:14, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Addendum - I'll add the odd clear notable that has sourcing problems but isn't actually unsourced: John McCabe (composer) seems to be sourced from primaries/youtube-types for example. --Jubilee♫ clipman  20:33, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Vanessa Lann
Not added to my list because sourced. Notability is in question, however: one of those Nonpoppers... --Jubilee♫ clipman 19:23, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

More unreferenced BLP composers
Many thanks to who has drawn the attention of WP:Composers to a useful listmaking tool Catscan, which has enabled me to compile a list of 168 unreferenced BLP composers &mdash; see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers. --Deskford (talk) 18:36, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Alarmingly, a search for all unreferenced BLP composers based on categories shows that we have 1700 of them. No point in pasting a vast list here, but this link can be used to generate the current list.  Dipping in at random gives an indication of just how many non-notables we have.  Simon Heath is just one example chosen arbitrarily.  A mere two sentences of text, challenged as u-BLP for nearly three years, and still there.  The planned cull of u-BLPs may help clean up hundreds that we would never get round to by hand.  --Deskford (talk) 20:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Simon Heath has NME here and Discogs (here), at least, reviewing him so he is not a complete nobody. He is not a composer, in our sense of the word, I suspect, however.  Za Frûmi and Atrium Carceri have pretty awful Wikis, though...  (And the Wired artice on Za Frûmi is actually about a certain film but happens to mention the group...) There are worse than Mr Heath in those lists, though...  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Excluding those who are also in Category:Songwriters so as to eliminate some of the non-classicals, we end up with a mere 739 u-BLP composers: Run query. --Deskford (talk) 22:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * How have you run the catscan? What were the parameters? Did they include the Composers Project banner? I think we should concentrate on articles that are within the scope of the project. There are lots of songwriter/pop singer articles that casually claim their subjects are also 'composers', which we needn't take too seriously. -- Klein zach  23:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Here are the links for reference, also posted at the Composers Project. --Deskford (talk) 23:35, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * (links in next section --Jubilee♫ clipman 01:24, 3 February 2010 (UTC))

Dynamic list generation: unreferenced BLP composers
Links for generating unreferenced BLP composer lists: --Deskford (talk) 23:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * All unreferenced BLP composers
 * Unreferenced BLP composers who are not songwriters
 * Unreferenced BLP composers bannered by the Composers Project
 * Unreferenced BLP 21st-century classical composers
 * Unreferenced BLP composers bannered by the Contemporary music project
 * Thanks for this Deskford... I think! I tried using only our banner and came up with only 104 BLPs: this (indentical to this, I think, so we only need to specify the project name in the first box, if I am correct in my analysis).  These are probably those I will find in my manual serch, if I understand all of this properly?   That list is certainly useful, indeed...  I will continue my manual search, anyway, but your "catscans" (!) certainly come up with some intreguing personalities.  Eg the very first generated by the first scan: Reihana dabbed Not to be confused with Rihanna (as if...)!  Or the first generated by the last catscan: Aasmund Nordstoga.  Neither of these are "ours", obviously, so we are going to have to be wary of using such scans until we can define our own parameters more precisely and come up with a scan to generate only western classical composers wth BLPs.   OTOH, Klein has removed the WPComposer banner from many of the mis-bannerd ones, so the listings you generated do have their uses.  This could actually be a very useful tool once we all get our heads around how to use it properly and have defined our own set of articles properly.  Thanks again (sincerely).  --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:53, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * (crossposted from Composers) I've extracted the 160-odd articles from the last catscan and put them here on the subpage with suggestions on how to process them. I've noticed that the catscan does not update immediately so articles we remove from the project will still show up – for how long I don't know. Perhaps checking 160-odd articles is doable if enough of us take part? -- Klein zach  01:05, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 160/4 (at worst) = 40 each, so that's not bad odds! --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I've added another catscan above, this one based on Category:21st-century classical composers. It's much more selective than the others, but of course it will miss anyone who has not been placed in that category. --Deskford (talk) 01:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My links are wrong... I'll rerun and post again. --Jubilee♫ clipman 01:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * FF isn't creating the URL in the address bar. Basically, I just put "Contemporary music" in the "Has all of these templates:" box, removed the Composers project from the other box and left all the rest as you had it.  I think I explained that correctly...  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah! Try this:   (I missed the little tool at the bottom...)--Jubilee♫ clipman  01:52, 3 February 2010 (UTC)  It's got a load of square brackets in it...  Not helpful.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)  I pinched the equivalent bit out of Deskford's egs above...  That should work now  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:58, 3 February 2010 (UTC) Finally...  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I added my listing to Deskford's, above. (I hope you don't mind?) --Jubilee♫ clipman  02:31, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately it's picking up articles I've already done, e.g. Sarah Peebles. Please see the list of a dozen of so articles that I have already done on the Composers subpage. -- Klein zach  03:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah: it's nothing to do with caching then (you hadn't been there already). These lists must be updated at some as yet unknown period...  Oh well, back to the cave to do the manual work for me then...  (I will probably go back to adding all articles with issues rather than just those I flagged above, now and leave the uBLP stuff to others.  That OK?  I'll also review A-E while I'm at it.)  --Jubilee♫ clipman  03:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Updates of catscans
These scans appear to be updated daily: the scan I added now has only 93 rather than 104 (Sarah Peebles is no longer listed, either). Do the other scans follow this same pattern? --Jubilee♫ clipman 18:22, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Now at 90: it is indeed daily, it seems. --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OH... The links seem to be broken at the moment. I'll check it all out and get back to you...  --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:57, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well that was weird... they're fine again now, anyway. --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:59, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah... at 83 now, so the update is very frequent. --Jubilee♫ clipman  03:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Great work
This is great work we are all doing on our unref'ed BLPs! I suspect we really should be doing all of this as a project collaboration, though, since different people frequent different projects (WP:Composers, WP:WPO, CTM, any others?) --Jubilee♫ clipman  02:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note - I didn't post this to Opera since they appear to have more or less dealt with their BLPs (their being a very organised project we could all learn from...) Do we still need to involve them in the wider collaboration in case opera composers turn up that aren't yet tagged as theirs?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  19:35, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Tristan Murail
I think we should be aware that sometimes large sections are being deleted out of articles, re the BLP business. Tristan Murail is an example, see |here. BTW Murail is in the ODM. -- Klein zach  09:02, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Here is another example: Joseph-François Kremer, see here. -- Klein zach  09:33, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I have noticed these kind of edits myself in various places (not just in articles related to music); the material is always true but unverified. The edits I have seen are often quite subtle and difficult to police.  On several occsions recently, for example, I have witnessed small sections being removed one after another in a fairly quick succession of edits—quite unlike the blatant block removals Klein highlighted above.  In the cases I am highlighing, the articles were being watched, anyway, for other reasons and concerned editors restored the text and requested the editor to more fully explain the removal on the talk page to see if consensus could be reached on the way forward.  The edits Kleinzach highlighed were made to relatively high profile articles and those I am highlighting were made to highly-watched articles; however, I suspect plenty of unwatched low-profile articles have suffered both methods (blatant and subtle) of sectional removal and that such removals are never caught.  In most cases, I feel, we have to assume good faith and attempt to educate the offending editor about the best ways to deal with unsourced statements (or statements "not specifically attributed to a reliable third party source" or whatever).  The most annoying are those where the editor removes the material without comment either in the Summmary or on the Talkpage.  Where an edit war develops, we probably have to assume either vandalism or (at best) thoughless editing.  Beyond that: just revert/restore (as appropriate) and explain in the Summary (and possibly also on the Talkpage, if necessary) following Klein's example.  Better still, (if you have time) source the material as well.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  16:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Scan subpage and scan links on front page
I have added the links to the CatScan onto our front page. I am also going to add a page containing the latest Catscan for our project's specific BLPs (from this scan). I'll link it shortly (it may contain names not in the other scans, of course). I have added a couple of names to List of 21st-century classical composers and my list of problem articles from the listing; however, we really need to look at those articles and decide if they really are ours, first, I fear... (I have alerted WP Composers to Mineminemine already.) --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Link here: WikiProject Contemporary music/Articles with issues. Could be a useful subpage anyway, perhaps. My list could go there when it's finished, maybe? Plenty of other "issues" we need to address, too... --Jubilee♫ clipman 01:49, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Comparision Scans
This gives unref'ed BLPs bannered by Composers but not by CTM.

This gives the reverse.

The scanner is somewhat fickle (it asks me to download and open a PHP file on occasion and other issues occur) but once I can get it to behave I will scan for all "Living people" who are "Composers" bannered by our project then for those bannered by one project but not another etc. --Jubilee♫ clipman  20:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

IE8 seems to work better than FF3. If I understand all this correctly these are the full listing of BLPs bannered by one of the projects (CTM or Composers) but not by the other:

This gives all BLPs bannered by Composers but not by CTM.

This gives the reverse.

Quite a lot to sort out, so bot might be better rather than manual bannering—but only if we can find a sensible bot owner to help out... --Jubilee♫ clipman 21:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I have just realised: people bannered by CTM are not necessarily all composers so I need to refine further (ie add the "Composers" cat back in). I'll get back to you on this after I try to sort out the best approach to using this scanner. --Jubilee♫ clipman 21:02, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * However, the scan, above, for CTM bannered articles not bannered by composers only gives 177. The reverse scan, above (ie WPComposer but not CTM—presumeably all composers, unless I've missed something) gives over 500.  Any thoughts on why this might be?   --Jubilee♫ clipman  21:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's true, I'm afraid. There really are 488 composers who are still alive, bannered by the Composers project but not by the Contemporary Music project.  More work, I fear!  A lot of them seem to be in the jazz, pop, rock and film fields.  Many are composers of a conservative outlook, so their music might not be described as "contemporary music" even though strictly it is.  Many are minor figures, some probably non-notable, but there are at least 40 who are notable and uncontroversially contemporary in attitude as well as by the simple fact of being still alive.  --Deskford (talk) 22:48, 6 February 2010 (UTC)


 * These 40 not only need to bannered by the Contemporary Music project, but also should be categorised into Category:21st-century classical composers. --Deskford (talk) 23:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, those 40-odd should not take long to verify and then categorise and banner. The other 450-odd might take little longer...  --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done the first few but am going to resume work on the BLPs now. The catting and bannering can be done any time.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note - List moved to WikiProject Contemporary music/Articles with issues --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

General scans

 * All CTM unreferenced BLPs
 * All CTM BLPs
 * All CTM composer BLPs
 * All CTM musician BLPs
 * Note: you have to press do it! I soft linked these so they could be tweeked if necessary. --Jubilee♫ clipman  02:18, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

According to this 1,158 BLPs are bannered by CTM (if the parameters are correct). Many are probably nothing to do with us so we need to review the entire list and remove the really obvious ones. I'll rerun with "composers" cat included. (Note, the scanner is case sensitive: "Living people" is entirely diferent to "Living People".) --Jubilee♫ clipman  22:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Added both scans above for easier access. Category:Musicians gives another parameter.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:09, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

OK here are the results:
 * 1165 CTM BLPs
 * 1145 CTM musician BLPs
 * 1068 CTM composer BLPs

I doubt if the difference is genuinely because not all the composers are performing musicians. Indeed, I also have no idea of the intersection of these latter two, but I suspect the composer set is not a simple subset of the musician set. More likely, there is a huge intersection between the two sets but with a very small but significant complement left over from each set. More work for the future... --Jubilee♫ clipman 08:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

John Palmer (composer)
I can't decide if our article is copyvio from his site or he is using our material. Which way round is it? --Jubilee♫ clipman 03:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Speedy Deletes

 * David Dzubay
 * Jeffrey Hass

Both created by also the creator of Don Freund discussed earlier on this talkpage. All three were created within a day of each other and the editor vanished from view. I'll look at Freund more closely to check he is a CSD or maybe just a PROD. I suspect he doesn't belong on WP anyway given the other two... --Jubilee♫ clipman 03:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Kleinzach's refs are pretty good for Freund. Maybe that one is a freak among duds?  Voceditenore reduced it to a stub due to blatant copyvio, probably spotting his notability in the process.  The stub needs to be expanded now, obviously, but that's for another day...  If the other two are clearly notable, we can easily recreate the articles with non-copyvio material.  (Hass did win an ASCAP award; however, I am not so sure about Dzubay)  --Jubilee♫ clipman  04:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I just noticed something else: all three are connected with Indiana University Jacobs School of Music. Maybe "Jonathan Sokol" is a lecturer or an alumnus?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  04:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell! They don't give you long and they ignore your removal of the notice and subsequent stubbification!  I actually removed the notice for Hass and stubbed the article but an admin still deleted it as I was trying to wikify the stub I had just saved.  What's that about?  Anyway, Hass is indeed notable enough if anyone cares to recreate the article.  See this and this and also see this Indiana Uni news article.  Anyway I am off to bed!  --Jubilee♫ clipman  04:54, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

AfD of Oscar van Dillen

 * Articles for deletion/Oscar van Dillen (2nd nomination)

Note that he is an important Wikipedian and the previous AfD was closed with a comment that RSs need to added to the articles. These were not provided and I have completely failed to come up with anything after nearly 3 hours of searching. Kleinzach has added an EL to a Cybele recording of one of his records but the article remains unsourced to date. --Jubilee♫ clipman 01:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

More CTM unreferenced BLPs
Now that all the composers have been dealt with for this project, we are left with 10 non-composers to source. See the subpage. I don't believe that's all of them: a huge number of pianists, violinists, conductors, musicologists, etc working in contemporary music must be unbannered. Indeed, I hope the composers project were adding the CTM banner to the composers they dealt with... Anyway good work all! --Jubilee♫ clipman 06:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

More scans
OK, you're all probably going to hate me for this... I have run several scans using CatScan and posted the results at WikiProject Contemporary music/Scans to review. The results are in the wiki format returned by the scanner for now. I haven't time to turn in into a tick list; however, the results tell their own story in raw form, anyway. There are also 1,515 living "composers" (so catted) not bannered for either CTM or Composers: here. These are probably mainly miscats but there may be a few obvious names in there that should be bannered. There are plenty of other scans that could be run but that'll keep us all going fo now! Happy editing... --Jubilee♫ clipman 15:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm suffering from listitis. Can I ask a simply question? Are there any more unreferenced BLPs that need checking? -- Klein zach  02:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any more unreferenced BLPs that need checking? ???? Probably 10s of thousands!  Not all ours though...
 * However, we do need to check that people who should be at CTM/Composers are actually t/here. The scans can help verify who should be in/out if used wisely.  I'm still learning it all but the lists I provided should be enough to go on with.  I'll reformat them more usefully at some point (ie as a list rather than as a table).  I think we all need a long rest for now though.... --Jubilee♫ clipman  02:12, 10 February 2010 (UTC)