Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive-Feb2007

Issue with article
List of NCAA Division I-A football seasons is a very useless article (right now). All this information can be contained in the succession boxes of the season or by simply going to one article and replacing the year with the year desired or going to Category: College football seasons. Either is needs to be deleted or expanded. I have started an expansion on it and will continue to work on it if everybody agrees it should be kept. My expansion work is located here: List of NCAA Division I-A football seasons/Sandbox. Much of the info is redundant (located elsewhere) but at least it provides some substance to the article.↔NMajdan &bull;talk 16:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Football Hall of Fame
I am sure many of the wiki football pages have alist or table showing their team players that are in the college and pro football hall of fame. People may also want to included players who have been enshired in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame as well Smith03 00:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Chris McFoy
Does anyone have an issue if Chris McFoy is taken to AfD or speedily deleted? He never had more than 21 catches or 272 yards in any of his 4 seasons and only 57 for his entire career. He is definitely not a top prospect for the draft and, I would think, is unlikely to be drafted at all. Your thoughts?--Thomas.macmillan 00:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Going off just those stats and the actual article, this is an AfD I could see supporting. However, I'd like to look him up online myself at a later time.↔NMajdan &bull;talk 00:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say keep until after the draft. His college record isn't anything to write home about, but if he's drafted he'll likely play in the NFL. Then again, deleting this we won't be losing anything that can't be recreated. But, he could be notable in the NFL, so, eh. -- MECU ≈ talk 01:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with MECU. He listed here as a posible Draft pick

09er 01:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a wikipedia site with no real documentation, mostly just POV. Also consider Ryan Powdrell in the same vain as McFoy. He had all of 3 carries and 4 receptions in a 2 game career at USC. Also, neither player was invited to the combine nor is either listed as a Top 150 prospect on the same site. --Thomas.macmillan 01:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't go so far as saying the 2007 NFL Draft page is just a Wikipedia article with no documentation and mostly POV. I believe that article lists just about every person who has declared for the draft. It has many ELs which is were I'm guessing most of the info in those lists come from. Also, each NFL draft page since 2003 is a WP:FL so I would say the information in that article is pretty reliable.↔NMajdan &bull;talk 21:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Only if people keep a decent list will the article be very useful. The list was originally all original research (top prosects according to whom?) but I have been trying to cut it down. I am switching the players list from Draft prospects to combine invitees, since they are basically one and the same. And, to get back on point, there are a lot of players with wikipedia articles that were not invited to the combine. Those players, short of a Timmy Chang type of notability, should not be on Wikipedia, IMHO.--Thomas.macmillan 21:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there harm in waiting until the draft to see if they are drafted? I agree Powdrell shouldn't have been created, but if, and only if, he is a "top fullback prospect" (fullbacks often have lower stats, would you complain about an All-American lineman who has no yards, catches, touchdowns? stats are deceiving in importance) then he might get drafted. When is the draft? Let's review it afterwards. -- MECU ≈ talk 23:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that stats can be very deceiving in importance for a non-skill player, but shouldn't accolades count? The draft is at the end of April. Honestly, I am just tired of editors seeing all these articles and taking them to AfD, especially actually notable players like Greg Olsen, Victor Abaimiri, Jamaal Anderson among many others. Another question: Should these players have the college football stub anymore? They have no more eligibilty and most aren't even enrolled in school anymore.--Thomas.macmillan 02:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

New data source
I just found http://cfreference.net/cfr/ which has stats which can be sorted by coach, team, season, vs. opponent, etc, etc. I think we should add this as a second source to the college coach infobox template to the college football data warehouse, but also use as a second source to many other claims (it has Outland trophy award history for example). There is some player info on there, but it's the weakest part of the website. Just thought I'd share. -- MECU ≈ talk 19:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

All-disctrict performer
Does anyone have a good source to define "All-district performer"? I can find plenty of links saying so-and-so was an all-district performer, but I can't find any definition of the criteria, whether they are consistent across the nation, etc. Naturally I will also need a citable source. This is to answer an objection made when Vince Young was demoted from GA. Thanks! Johntex\talk 23:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a sketchy distinction anyways. Vince Young is quite a notable football player and has numerous other distinctions, any article about him is quite adequate without even mentioning this point, ESPECIALLY if it is an unreferenced (and indeed, nebulous to say the least) distinction.  Look, he may have won a dance contest and been named "Best Hairdo" by his high school year book, but neither distiction would be vital.  The distinction "All-district performer" sounds like the sort of thing that a local paper bestows on good high school athletes, like an athlete of the week award.  Again, if you CAN find a solid reference (such as XXX publication named Vince Young "all district performer" in 1999) then it might be worthy of inclusion.  Otherwise, the article really loses nothing by omitting it, and if that is all that is keeping it from GA status, just omit it and resubmit it (hey, I sound like Johnny Cochrane.  Heh heh.  Anyways...) for GA consideration. --Jayron 32  01:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It should be possible to find a reference that says "so-and-so named Vince Young to the 1999 99AAAAA all-district team." Whether that then presents the issue of still needing to define "all-district" or even the concept of a UIL or high school district, I don't know.   *Mishatx* -  In \ Out   03:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It is very easy to find a source saying that Vince Young was an "all district" performer. For instance, this fact is mentioned in his official bios with both the Tennessee Titans and the Texas Longhorns.  That is not the issue.  The issue is finding a source that explains what it really means.  I suppose I could take it out, but I find it interesting that he was an all-district performer in basketball.  Hence, it makes for a non-football fact to help round out his biography. Johntex\talk 14:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have a reference to help you Johntex, but as an assistant football coach at a high school, I can tell you how we selected our all-conference first and second team members: We were given 2 "slots" for first team and 5 "slots" for second team by the conference. This is despite being #4 in a league of 7 (some leagues scale the numbers, so the #1 in a league of 7 would get 5 first team "slots", #2 would get 4 "slots", etc). Then, all the coaches on the staff sat around the discussed it. We picked the players we wanted for each slot. So it's not really all that special, in my opinion. As a disclaimer, this is how our team/league did it here in Colorado, it may be different in other states. -- MECU ≈ talk 16:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Very interesting, thank you. I also posted this question at Reference_desk/Miscellaneous.  Mishatx's post there makes it sound like "all-district" is something decided on by the school district.  If that is the case then it would not usually be that big of a deal since a school district does not usually include more than a handful of schools.  It looks like we could really use an article like US High school athletics honors.  If we could find sources for it, that is. Johntex\talk 17:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

New solution for multiple WikiProject banners
Some of you may have been aware of the ongoing drive to figure out a way to compress all the WikiProject banners on an article's talk page. WikiProjectBanners was the first solution. Many people were for this solution, but many were against. Well, another solution has arisen. WikiProjectBannerShell. The difference here is that the names of the WikiProjects are not hidden, just the details. WikiProjectBanners hid all WikiProject banners until the button was clicked. However, unlike WikiProjectBanners, WikiProjectBannerShell requires a change to the code similar to the small option. I'd like to start making the necessary changes to this WikiProject's banner soon but I thought it might be wise to hear some feedback first. You can see the template in action at Talk:Timothy R. McVeigh. If you have any comments/question/concerns, please leave them on the template's talk page. Thank you.↔NMajdan &bull;talk 17:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

A.J. Suggs
Hi there everyone,

I nominated A.J. Suggs for deletion. As knowledgable college football fans, I hope you can all agree that a player such as Suggs should not pass WP:BIO, as he served primarily as a college back up and never played professionally. Thanks--Thomas.macmillan 18:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Notability of per-year team entries
I have a question - I've noticed there are a lot of entries for specific teams for 2006. For at least a few teams, it makes a lot of sense to have their own articles (like Florida and Ohio State). For teams with breakout years I can see that it makes sense too (Rutgers, Wake Forest). But does every major program need a seperate entry for this year and presumably every year to come (Tennessee, Georgia, Florida State)? Cogswobble 20:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (P.S., I'm asking the question to see what people here think, I'm not saying that I think the answer is definitely "No") Cogswobble 20:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (I moved the above from the WP:CFB project page). -- MECU ≈ talk 19:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We've had discussion about this before at the project, and the result was overwhelmingly that since most of these pages are created before the season and maintained throughout, that as long as they are well written/sourced/maintained, there is no sense in deleting them. It's hard to predict what the usefulness of the pages/how well the teams will do, so to encourage people to write season articles about the team from the start, we're saying if you do a good job, the success of the team is not relevant. Someone who writes a great Troy Trojans 2007 article, and because maybe in the end they don't even make a bowl game (an arbitrary standard I'm putting here) we delete it wouldn't want to write a 2008 article, where maybe the Troy team wins a BCS bowl game (crazier things can happen, see 2006 Boise State). Also, an article written as things progress during the season will be better, better sourced, and the end result better than an article written entirely after the fact. For example, I started the 2006 Colorado page and they had a miserable season, but I did an okay job with the article (I think) and they actually did set a school record: Most consecutive losses (not one to write home about, but "notable" nonetheless). If the article were to get deleted now, I wouldn't really want to write a 2007 article since there's a 50/50 (depending on the standard, but playing in a bowl game is about 50/50) chance it will get deleted. However, we also decided that going back and creating article about teams that weren't all that great isn't a good idea. It's preferable to combine seasons under head coaches or other groupings. So, instead of going back and creating articles about each season under Gary Barnett, it would be better to create one article titled "Colorado Buffaloes football under Gary Barnett" where I can use the 2005 article page (as bad as that is) to help write it, but the 2005 article shouldn't be deleted either once the new article is created. This was mainly done for all the seasons prior to 2000 where an article about each season would likely be short, a stub that contains little information. A good example to look at is Oklahoma. See Oklahoma Sooners football. I hope I've explained everything well enough to answer your question why. -- MECU ≈ talk 19:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a great explanation! Thanks. Cogswobble 22:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)