Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive-Jan2009

72.208.8.229
Can someone check Special:Contributions/72.208.8.229? The IP has been adding incorrect information to hockey articles. I tried double-checking the football edits, but I have no idea how to verify what they've added.-Wafulz (talk) 16:39, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Chas Henry is a Sophomore not a Senior on the Florida Gators roster. How can this be changed? I cannot edit the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rwbannon (talk • contribs) 23:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Since logo usage is such an uncontroversial issue...
Seriously though, I noticed there were issues with incomplete fair use rationales for the WVU logo, but then I noticed they had some older teams (that certainly predated their current logo), so I went through and found the old logos online. Now the two relevant teams, 1975 and 1969, have the actual team logo from those years. Anyone else thing this is a good idea for older team pages? The actual trademark on these logos is almost certainly abandoned, though the copyright ownership (unless they were made pre-1923), would be active. Thus an abandoned logo from pre-1923 would be straight-up public domain, not sure how many of those there are. --Bobak (talk) 21:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Bobak, I have updated the licensing on the 1969 logo, because it is not eligible for US Copyright. It actually falls under public domain. The 1975 logo is a little more questionable because it has the state outline (which still isn't really original content, but I'll leave that for some one else to determine). I do like having the actually logo of that team though. Nice work! Rtr10 (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I respectfully disagree on the 1969 logo. While it does use type, it is stylized and used as a single image/logo --it was not a part of a typeface/font set that would fall into that exception. The design as it is is more of a piece of art.  This point actually falls into the classic discussion of form/function, copyright/patent (for industrial design) that's found in important cases such as Brandir.  While a font set is the blend of form and function that disallows copyrights (but permits dsign patents), this design is an image that was made in the same way that might protect the FedEx or Big Ten logos and their hidden images.  Of course, companies always prefer to protect trademark because (1) they need to in order to keep it trademarked and (2) they last forever (vs. copyrights or patents).  The courts have always had a surprisingly low bar for creative work, and this would be one that (I personally) would agree with arguing for --but the bottom line is this isn't clear cut and we need to be safe.  The 70s logo is certainly copyrighted.  Of course, for all we know, since the 60s logo was before the Copyright Act of 1976, and could very well be in the PD for a lack of renewal (which is no longer necessary, but was at the time --once something goes into the PD, its almost certainly gone). --Bobak (talk) 01:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You cannot copyright letters themselves no matter how distinctive the font; it's a trademark. Coca-Cola's logo is a prime example of that. The 1975 one is another matter altogether and I wouldn't place money going either way. — BQZip01 —  talk 03:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the CC logo a terrible example because it predates 1923 so the copyright would've expired --however that's exactly why trademarks are defended, they last forever. If I were to paint stylized letters, copyright would attach and there would be a certain legal fight over it.  The WVU letters weren't part of a type set, rather were designed to be a part of a stylized logo.  See examples of FedEx and Big Ten.  I would normally find myself on the "Wikipedia is too copyright paranoid", but this time I can't agree. --Bobak (talk) 15:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Just thought I should point out that there is a major difference in between the FedEx & Big Ten logos and the 1969 WVU logo. Both FedEx and the big ten are not just pure letters/characters. The "dE" in FedEx is not a letter/character that could be identified as a font and the Big Ten logo has the number 11 embedded into the Word Big Ten. They are both VERY different from the 1969 WVU logo which is simply three letters in a style of font. While the style of the letters might have possibly been new at the time they are still just letters and that is not "original enough" to get it to fall into US Copyright. Rtr10 (talk) 18:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

While the FedEx/Big Ten logos are more creative, the threshold for originality is exceptionally low. The US case that is now cited is the Supreme Court decision in Feist v. Rural (1991, text here). It was a case over one phone book literally copying another (not original), but in reaching the decision in laid out a good summary of how low the threshold actually is:"The sine qua non of copyright is originality. To qualify for copyright protection, a work must be original to the author. . . . Original, as the term is used in copyright, means only that the work was independently created by the author (as opposed to copied from other works), and that it possesses at least some minimal degree of creativity. . . . To be sure, the requisite level of creativity is extremely low; even a slight amount will suffice. The vast majority of works make the grade quite easily, as they possess some creative spark, 'no matter how crude, humble or obvious' it might be.(from Feist)" So my point is that the old WVU logo could arguably fall into this minimum degree of creativity, "no matter how crude, humble or obvious" it might be. As such, we should be careful and assume that it is remains under copyright and used under fair use. --Bobak (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Formatting individual yearly bowl game recaps
I'm getting flustered by some Wikians who are using the short names in some of the yearly bowl game pages. I, for one in the last couple years have used the full name of the school and team nickname (i.e. "Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Hokies") while some use the shorter version (i.e. "Virginia Tech Hokies") in the game summeries on the annual pages, NCAA football bowl games, 2007-08 as a most recent example. However, this year, I feel that we should not do one or two sentance recaps on that page, rather than that, have a summary on each bowl game page with the full school name. Examples include 2008 Armed Forces Bowl, 2009 Cotton Bowl and 2009 BCS National Championship Game, of which I have put the proper name but instead use the short version. In such cases, I would like to see the following schools (such as Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, LSU, etc.) be listed as folows with a back link to the team that year (such as ((2009 Ole Miss Rebels football team|University of Mississippi (Ole Miss) Rebels)) (using the Wikilink brackets): These are the only schools that I know of with this problem, and complicating matters, both Southern California and South Carolina share the "USC" initals, hence "Southern California" is usually used in the recaps and stories in lieu of the USC initals. Please take this under consideration, and thanks. NoseNuggets (talk) 2:54 PM US EST Jan 12 2009.
 * Virginia Tech: "Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (Virginia Tech) Hokies";
 * Ole Miss: "University of Mississippi (Ole Miss) Rebels;
 * LSU: "Louisiana State University (LSU) Tigers";
 * Georgia Tech: "Georgia Institute of Technology (Georgia Tech) Yellow Jackets";
 * USC: "University of Southern Californa (USC) Trojans".
 * The problem with getting into that is that you are often times using incorrect names or use of the school name. The teams are known by and referred to by what you call "short names" (which is not really correct at all) not the full name of their institution. For example no one knows the ACC's Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets as "The Georgia Institute of Technology Yellow Jackets" and the institution itself does not even refer to the team in that name, they officially refer to the team as the Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets and the same is true in a ton of situations. Ole Miss is the same. The University of Mississippi officially refers to their athletic teams as the Ole Miss Rebels, not the "University of Mississippi Rebels. I also noticed one instance in the 2009 Sugar Bowl article you referred to the Alabama Crimson Tide as the "University of Alabama Tuscaloosa Crimson Tide", well as both a student and employee of the university I can tell you with assurance there is no such thing as the "University of Alabama Tuscaloosa", there is a University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, Alabama which is the flagship institution of the University of Alabama System, but it is not referred to in an circumstance as the "University of Alabama Tuscaloosa". That is just one of many reasons using full institution names is a bad idea. Using these name are simply unneeded and only cause confusion to those reading the article. If there is question as to who the team represents, then the reader can click the wikilink of the team and will see who the team represents in the very first sentence of that article. Just no need to cause confusion by using names that are not even used by the institutions themselves. Rtr10 (talk) 23:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Right. I'm in complete agreement with Rtr10. The name a college or university uses can be different from academics to athletics. The athletic names of these schools (LSU Tigers, Virginia Tech Hokies, USC Trojans, etc.) should be, and stay, the preferred way to refer to them in sports related articles. --Geologik (talk) 00:55, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm a student at Georgia Tech, so I have first hand knowledge on this matter. The name Georgia Institute of Technology is appropriate when referring to the academic institution.  However, the Athletic Association only uses the name Georgia Tech.  The terms Georgia Institute of Technology Yellow Jackets and Georgia Institute of Technology football are erroneous.  I'm not positive them same is true with Virginia Tech, but I'd be willing to bet it is.   Ndenison  talk  01:32, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is. JKBrooks85 (talk) 02:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And there is never any confusion between the USC Trojans and the USC Gamecocks.-- 2008 Olym pian chit chat 04:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Really, I never see South Carolina expressed as "USC" except on the TV score box. Whatever the athletic program uses, I'm thinking we should do the same. Since I'm pretty certain that a lot of programs never use the university's full name. – LATICS   talk  07:59, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

2008 ACC Championship Game FAC
Just wanted to give you all a heads-up that I've submitted 2008 ACC Championship Game to be a featured article. Any comments, questions, concerns, criticism or support you'd care to add on the review page would be appreciated. Thanks! JKBrooks85 (talk) 05:36, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

"Part of a series on...." template
Would anyone else be interested in having a "Part of a series on.." template for college football? (describing the major aspects of it) For examples of what I mean, and ways in which this sort of template can be used, see Template:Judaism, Template:History of Australia, Template:Censorship, Template:Islam, Template:Love table, Template:BibleRelated, Template:Creationism2, etc... I could create one for college football fairly quickly to see what people thought of it before implementing it, if anyone would be interested. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 06:09, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see what it would look like, what kind of scope we'd have under it (or I guess on it). Rtr10 (talk) 06:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thinking along the lines of having different sections for awards (heisman, coach of the year, national championship trophies, etc.), major games played (BCS games, Conference championships, etc.), maybe something with conferences or past college football seasons, etc. Actually, if anyone has any good suggestions on areas of college football that would be worth highlighting, I would love to hear them before creating such a navigation template. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 06:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it would be a great idea. I've just started to toy around with an idea in my sandbox of doing one of those templates for Athletic Departments. Of course I did one of Alabama which probably has more athletic articles than most universities, but I still think it has a lot of potential. Rtr10 (talk) 07:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That one is looking excellent so far! I think it would be great if there were templates like that for most major universities that have a lot of articles, so maybe you will spur on the development of them from people that see yours and have interest in other universities. One thing I have a question about is where you put these templates in relation to infoboxes, if there are ones for the articles. (above or below them) I suppose below the infobox since the infobox is on the specific article. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 07:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

<---I was messing around with a template for one, but I started thinking, should this be a template about all of college football or just Division I? I say that because if it were on all of college football, then it would need to be much more general and include links to Division II, Division III, and NAIA stuff as well, and likely could not contain information on, say, the BCS and whatnot. (Well, not as detailed information on it anyway, since it would be more of an overview) I don't know what the best format would be. Anyone have any ideas? Cardsplayer4life (talk) 07:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

New college football FAC
I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier, but another new college football bowl game FAC has been submitted — and this time, it's not by me. Strikehold has submitted 2008 Humanitarian Bowl to FAC, and more reviewers and commenters are needed. Thanks! JKBrooks85 (talk) 11:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)