Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive-May2008

College Football Hall of Fame Heads Up
The new inductees were announced today. Check this article for info: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g7DNF1BFb3081Rj_6EnfU7pT8Z6gD90CV3A80 Seancp (talk) 17:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

A bit of help please
I'm working on a page for Gwinn Henry, a football coach from wayback... I'm finding that this guy coached at least at five schools! I have information on some but not all... specifically, Howard Payne University. Anyone got any information to chip in on this page?--Paul McDonald (talk) 02:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just looked through a few of my reliable sources -- reliable except for this, it appears. Sorry. JKBrooks85 (talk) 03:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * On second thought, you might try the college football bibliography (http://www.amazon.com/College-Football-Bibliography-Bibliographies-Indexes/dp/0313290261/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210846808&sr=8-16) at your local library. There's an off chance that it might be able to direct you to a source that has the information you need. I know that book has helped me out immensely. Just wish I could afford a copy of my own. I'd also suggest contacting the schools directly to see if they have any self-published histories that you could cite. JKBrooks85 (talk) 10:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Mainpage cleanup
I think the mainpage is in need of cleanup. This is what I think needs to happen:
 * Structure - needs to be expanded with template help, single game structure, among other things.
 * Other subpages - should move to structure.
 * Lists - semi thrown together. Needs something else to it.
 * New College football articles - This list it getting too long. I believe their should be a week or month limit on the showcasing of new articles.
 * College football articles needing help - needs general cleanup.
 * Notable football schools that do not have separate athletics pages and Notable schools with athletics pages, but no football page - needs updating and expansion.

I would like other peoples opinions since this is a collaboration page. Thanks,  P G  Pirate  18:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

FL help
Following the excellent work that CrdHwk began with Iowa Hawkeyes football seasons, I started working on Appalachian State Mountaineers football seasons last December. I recently nominated it as a featured list candidate, but I need some help getting it passed and working through the recommendations that The Rambling Man has suggested. I've pretty much followed the conventions that the Iowa and East Carolina Pirates football seasons have used, but he's bending me over with his lengthy list of suggestions. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm on the verge of shrugging my shoulders and delisting the page. Geologik (talk) 17:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The review for this list has been extended. I've gotten a couple supports so far, and I'd ask if anyone has the time to please take a look. Edit, make suggestions, oppose, support, etc. - provide some input. Thanks! Geologik (talk) 21:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

HELP! Emergency Action Required!
User User:Stifle has been deleting head coach pages without providing an opportunity for discussion. In a matter of a few minutes, the user wiped out all work I had completed on coaches for Prairie View A&M University, including coach Ronald Beard, the worst performing coach in NCAA history (4 years as a head coach without a single victory).--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

All Project Members: please go to the deletion discussion and comment (here's how). I recommend Overturn (undelete) and give reasons as you see fit.

Sample reasons: please make up your own, too!
 * Article has sufficient sourcing already to prove notability
 * Notable coach
 * Division I FBS School head coaches are notable
 * Reliable sources cited
 * Similar to discussion Articles for deletion/Mike Gottsch with consensus Keep
 * Useful for peer-to-peer review of coaching histories
 * WP:CFB has already defined collegiate football coaches as notable by default
 * There are hundreds of other college football head coach articles on Wikipedia-to delete these in particular is irrational
 * Prairie View A&M University is notable infamously because of its historically poor record

The admin speedy-deleted 22 articles in 6 minutes.

These are just some samples, please enter your own words! And also, please enter on each coach that you can. Specifically, Ronald Beard had a record of 0-44 in 4 years to post the worst lifetime record as a head coach, and the school has the longest losing streak in college football.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Take all of them to WP:DRV then, looks on the surface like a gaffe on stifle's part. Wizardman  21:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC) (Nevermind, you already did. it'll e taken care of then)


 * I'm deeply unimpressed by the vote-stacking, folks. Stifle (talk) 21:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm deeply unimpressed by your utterly unprofessional use of administrator status. Seancp (talk) 21:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I spent 15 minutes toying around with a response - yours definitely works. ;) Geologik (talk) 22:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you have a problem that we discuss editing and project matters as a group to build consensus and work together to make Wikipedia a better place.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I left a message on here just a minute ago. Olease check the revision history of this page and read, it's very vital! #1  Metallica  Fan  Your Hancock 21:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The discussion appears to have been closed by Stifle? What's the next step to get this decision reversed? JKBrooks85 (talk) 22:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

What's next Now the admin (he?) is doing individual AFDs for each article. We have to go to each article page and insert comments on the pages as he makes them. Fortunately, we can wait just a bit because it will take him some time. And also fortunately, there's a cool NAVBOX at the bottom of each coach's page so we can enter our comments that way.

All the admin is really doing is creating a lot more work for an issue that could have been easily resolved.

I believe that the administrator is being totally unreasonable, and several others have made similar comments. I will be researching on how to get assistance from a different administrator on this matter and will keep you posted.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please do. This admin needs to have his priveledges revoked.  It's just absolutely ridiculous what he's doing.  Isn't there an "incident reporting" place?  Can he be reported to that? Seancp (talk) 22:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

As an admin myself, I encourage nobody to bother bringing this up at WP:ANI, as like Stifle says, nothing will come out of it. The initial deletions were done improperly, but that's already been reversed at DRV, and AfDing them is entirely appropriate if he thinks they should be deleted in good faith. If you want to voice your opinion, you can do so at the AfDs, this doesn't really need to go to ANI. VegaDark (talk) 23:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey Paul - One of the coaches William J. Nicks is in the College Football Hall of Fame. That should be notable enough to keep him from being deleted. I've been searching for a media guide and digging around on the SWAC page as well looking for information. I read his replies to you on his talk page, and he is one smug dude. And to top it off he admits to not even following college football. As Sean suggested, I think there is a page somewhere where you can report administrators. He's definitely being heavy-handed. Geologik (talk) 22:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, it's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. I'm giving it to you because I have every confidence that nothing will come out of this. Unfortunately you're quite wrong in saying that I am being totally unreasonable and need to have my privileges revoked. I reversed the speedy deletion after the review, and that's it as far as administrative actions have gone. Nothing else is a use of my administrative rights, just normal editorial actions. I've bundled the articles into just five AFD nominations, and they're listed on today's page at Articles for deletion. If you can show me a couple of media references for any of these guys which comply with the reliable sources requirements and tell me how they're notable, I'll gladly withdraw that deletion request. I'm just about to head off for the night (I'm on the far side of the Atlantic to most of you folks, I suspect) so I wish you all a good evening :) Stifle (talk) 23:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just withdrew the AFD for the guy who's in the Hall of Fame as he is obviously notable enough. Goodnight! Stifle (talk) 23:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't do it. I believe he has been totally out of line on many levels, and not just for the speedy deletion but for activity with people on this project and others.  Just look at his talk pages.  If anyone agrees with me, they can go to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and post a comment.  I believe that at least two people need to complain for anything to come of it.--Paul McDonald (talk) 23:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Paul, can you instead come up with some other sources? I think defending these articles from deletion should come first. JKBrooks85 (talk) 01:06, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Been working on that, too! Check out several of the articles!--Paul McDonald (talk) 06:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I did see that. Good work! Hopefully that'll be enough to save them. You're really on the ball with this. JKBrooks85 (talk) 07:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

A new wikipedia sub project
Hi, I started a new project in a sub page but I asked a user if it was good enough to be a project, he said I should ask y'all. I would just like to say that it's well known that the Razorbacks are good historically in sports and this would make it so much more easier to keep up with all the article's. So what do you think? #1  Metallica  Fan  Your Hancock 21:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * A+ on enthusiasm, that's for sure! However, I don't think that an extra project is a good move because that would end up creating lots and lots of projects within college football, and that would be difficult for us to build a more uniform look and feel to college football articles.  Here's some reasons:


 * 1) The issue we're going through right now (see above) with an administrator speedy-deleting articles is a problem and harmful to our project.  If we separated projects by team, we would not have as much influence
 * 2) Coaches tend to travel from one team to another (the Hogs own Houston Nutt for example).  It is very helpful to track and maintain edits under the umbrella of college football.
 * 3) Having one project per team runs the risk of Wikipedia "point-of-view" violations, and that would be harmful to your team pages and the project in general--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, O.k I see your point, and I think this wold be a project I would like to get envolved with! #1  Metallica  Fan  Your Hancock 23:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I can understand Paul's concern, but if you can find others who think as you do, go for it! As long as we're creating more CFB articles, I don't really care how it's done, personally. JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Third Time, Deletion Proposed
For the third time, Oscar Dahlene‎ has been proposed for deletion. What gives?--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Paul, if they're not kept, I'd suggest merging them into a "Coaches of XX school" article so we don't lose the information. Once you or someone else comes up with more sources, we can split out the different coaches' tenures. A similar reason is behind why we have articles like Notre Dame Fighting Irish football under Tyrone Willingham — at the time, there wasn't enough information to justify year-by-year articles. I know you've put a lot of work in creating these individual coaches' articles, and I'd love to save them, but if they're not, it's an alternative. JKBrooks85 (talk) 03:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That might be what the consensus ends up doing. The problem is that would be a very clumsy page.  Washburn University, for example, has a history of I think 40 coaches.  That makes for a real busy page.--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, you're right -- but I don't think we have much of a choice for now. Better to have the information at least on Wikipedia somewhere, even if it's not the way we'd ultimately like to have it presented. As more sources are uncovered (if someone writes a nice history of pre-1950s NAIA football coaches, forex) we can start to think about spinning them out. I just hate to say that after all the work you've done, though. Rest assured, regardless of what happens, that work is appreciated. JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the work is appreciated and it's not just an ego thing for me (okay, a little) but ultimately I want what's best for Wikipedia. If we did combine the "single-season coaches" into the schools "football coach page" and then had stand-alone articles for the coaches with more information, how would that look--appear--function?  That's gonna be a heckuva lotta re-writes!--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but the whole point of Wikipedia is to be flexible and easy to re-write. It's a matter of a few clicks and keystrokes to get your information out into another page. JKBrooks85 (talk) 20:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Some things to consider:
 * Oscar Dahlene was not a NAIA coach since it was founded 1937
 * Sub dividing of NCAA did not happen around late 1930’s meaning he was coaching at the highest level of College Football at the time.
 * In the late 1890’s and early 1900’s teams we considered major powers were playing and losing to other schools that we now considered small college. For example Ohio State played and lost to Oberlin, Wittenberg and Ohio Wesleyan.  West Virginia played and lost to West Virginia Wesleyan.  Kentucky played and lost to Transylvania and Centre.  If you look at the article Ottawa University played Kansas the year Dahlene coached them.
 * Why is Oscar Dahlene less significant than Arthur Smith (an article I wrote)?  Smith only won one game and that was against a club team.  Was it because the administration many years latter decided to play football at the highest level?   Is it because 50 or so years later Maimi was able to hire several coaches that ended up in the College Football Hall of Fame so it became know as the Cradle of Coaches?   I would guess that 99.999% of Miami University fans would not even know Smith coached at the school.
 * Why is Harry Jacoby a significant coach? He coached Boise State when they were a junior college and had a career losing record.
 * If Ottawa University decided to move up to Division 1A? Is Oscar Dahlene now a significant coach because some administration 100 years later made a decision to emphases football?

My point is that this project has been dancing around what is a significant coach for as long as I can remember. It is kind of like pornography, you know it when you see it. What is pornography to one person is art to another. All I know is what listed on the Notability page is not very useful. something needs to be done. 09er (talk) 15:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * These are all very good points, ones that I hadn't considered. Would you mind posting them on the discussion page?  (Will I be accused of "canvassing" for asking for that?)--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * An even bigger question is that if we can create notability guidelines, will we be able to make them stick if someone nominates an article for AfD? JKBrooks85 (talk) 20:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I woudl be very much in favor of creating strong notability guidelines for coaches, programs, etc. Right now, we don't include NJCAA programs or other schools outside NCAA and NAIA... but why?  And why do we include NAIA?  I believe we have valid reason for that, but we don't have a page really we can link to and say "here's why" ... as you say, getting them to stick would be more work and effort, but a well-defined guideline page would help--especially if we set up pre-emptive arguments and commonly asked questions.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Paul, if you're serious about this, head over to WikiProject College football/Style Guide and write out in the notability section what you think the notability guidelines should be for coaches. We can work on it there without cluttering up this talk page too much. JKBrooks85 (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just took a stab at it, let me know what you think...
 * Good stuff, but I don't think you need to have all those justifications. As long as we have a codified style guide and notability guidelines that were approved by consensus, justifications should be irrelevant. JKBrooks85 (talk) 23:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Kneejerk reaction! It's a lot easier to remove stuff than it is to think it up in the first place!--Paul McDonald (talk) 23:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm not saying to delete it! It's valuable information; I'll just move it to a "justifications" page linked to from that page. Would that work? That way, we've got a page we can show to folks while still keeping the style guide page as clean as possible. JKBrooks85 (talk) 01:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I had been working on WikiProject College Football/Notability, maybe that would be a good place too...--Paul McDonald (talk) 01:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point. JKBrooks85 (talk) 03:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just worked the two together, trimming the "style guide" and referencing to the "notability" discussion, where I copied all the coach notability work just done.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Project Notability Page
I've just put the final touches on the first draft of WikiProject College Football/Notability. It's ready for review and discussion. Please use the notability talk page for discussion.--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * hmmm... there's also another page WikiProject College football/Notability (Notice the uppercase/lowercase "Football/football").--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Looking pretty good... but we need more input. Come on, folks! I don't think you want just me and Paul drafting guidelines, here. JKBrooks85 (talk) 09:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * hmmm... only the teams that I like are notable... yeah... that's it! Everyone please at least review the notability page and put a comment or two on its talk page.--Paul McDonald (talk) 04:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Paul, I'd suggest being WP:BOLD on this one and moving the current proposed Notability thing to an archive and replacing it with yours. That'll get some attention, and yours is a bit more polished, I think. JKBrooks85 (talk) 06:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Sprint Football
I don't want to take it on... but what do you guys think about Sprint Football as being a part of our project?--Paul McDonald (talk) 01:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If there's interest in it, I'd say to go for it. Right now, however, we don't have enough editors to get all the CFB articles that should be written done. JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)