Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 14

National Championships
I understand that Division I FBS national championships are not official, but can we at least set a precedent for all FBS football program articles to follow? Currently, the Texas Longhorns football article (they are certainly not the only ones, this is just an example) has 2008 as an unclaimed championship. That's ridiculous. I propose that we use the official NCAA FBS record book as the source to put unclaimed championships on these articles. They have a list of major selectors, and teams for every year. What do you guys think? Kobra98 (talk) 03:03, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Kobra, that may be someone's idea of a joke or protest. As you may recall, 2008 was the year Texas beat Oklahoma, and Oklahoma won the Big-12 and was invited to the BCS championship anyway, and then lost to Florida in the BCS game.  Florida got the trophies, and finished No. 1 in both the AP and Coaches polls, as well as the overwhelming majority of the minor selectors (see here.  Texas finished No. 4 and No. 3 in the major polls, but did get two national championship selections from two minor selectors I've never even heard of.  If the guys who edit the Longhorns page want to put the 2008 "unclaimed national championship" in the infobox, I'm kind of speechless -- certainly the UT athletic department doesn't claim it.  Personally, I think the "unclaimed" parameter should be deleted from the infobox template.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:39, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * That's the problem; it's not just a joke, and there are many pages with things like this. I've tried to take 2008 off of there, but they keep putting it back on. I think we should set a precedent so that only those listed here, on pages 74-79, should be put on Wikipedia. Kobra98 (talk) 19:01, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Kobra, I will sign on to any standard you can get a majority of WP:CFB editors to agree to. The problems are (1) agreeing to a standard and (2) then trying to enforce it.  It would be a lot simpler to simply remove the "unclaimed" parameter from the infobox template, and it would avoid a lot of arguments over enforcement.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Because of the nature of FBS national championships, I think the parameter should be left. Now I don't know much about settling an issue like this, so where do I present this to get CFB editors to agree to it? Wouldn't that be here, on the talk page of WikiProject College football? Kobra98 (talk) 00:48, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * This discussion might find a more involved audience at Talk:College football national championships in NCAA Division I FBS. Cheers. UW Dawgs (talk) 01:40, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Peer review - possible GA/FA contender?
With football season just around the corner, I wonder if there's any interest in getting the College Football Playoff article formally reviewed up to standards, perhaps to be an FA candidate sometime this fall (or at least GA status before then), given its importance as a topic in the football world. I've been smoothing and tweaking it for awhile now (hopefully not too CRYSTAL), and I think it's gotten to be in pretty decent shape, though it's still rated Start class. I was hoping somebody could give me some feedback.

One area that's important but unaddressed is the history and the old systems — a concise but adequate summary of the BCS-era drama and general teeth-gnashing over the years. User:Dcheagle has begun writing some of that history [User:Dcheagle/FixitboxXI on this draft page]. There are sections from Plus-One system and College football playoff debate that should probably be included, though those articles likely need a makeover.

I've never made a run at GA/FA before, so I'm sort of unsure of the next steps for this. Thanks for any help! Woodshed (talk) 01:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

FCS national champion team navboxes?
What are everyone's thoughts on the existence of Category:NCAA Division I FCS champions navigational boxes and all of the team navboxes found in it? I know we have these for FBS, and for Division I men's basketball, but is it worth having these for the FCS level? Jrcla2 (talk) 17:43, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - Each of these have been created in the last three days by a lone editor. Consider this when reacting to any content or formatting issues. Jrcla2 did a nice job of neutral phrasing, I'm trying to make the same callout re current content. UW Dawgs (talk) 17:56, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see any big formatting issues here. These were modeled off the pre-existing FBS navboxes and formatted in a fashion consistent with those.  UW Dawgs, what are your issues with the content?  As for whether we need these navboxes at all, I have mixed feelings. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:10, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Wasn't trying to be cryptic. Particularly re content (players, coaches), was highlighting that these were three days new and likely had not been reviewed by other editors. Each has 3~10 links to player/coach articles. That may or may not be definitive per instance. UW Dawgs (talk) 17:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Notable, second highest level of college football, champions decided on field via playoffs. UW Dawgs (talk) 17:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Qualified support -- I have no problem with FCS championship navboxes in principle, but I question their practical usefulness. The purpose of the championship navboxes is to provide a convenient set of links and covenient navigation method for notable athletes and coaches from a given championship team.  For Division I FBS championship teams, there are typically 30 or so players and coaches who have Wikipedia articles, but I expect the number will be more like five or six for the typical FCS championship team, and certainly nothing like a majority of the 22 starting players.  I suggest someone should do a survey of the last four or five FCS champions to see how many links each team would have before we start generating mostly empty navboxes.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:40, 3 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, what do we think about NCAA Division II championship navboxes. We now have five, e.g. Template:1983 NDSU Bison football navbox. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:24, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * LOL We think the example Division II championship navbox looks pretty darn empty.  That's what we think.  Navboxes exist to navigate between existing articles; navboxes are not championship banners to be hung on articles, nor are they decorations.  Several of the Division I FCS navboxes have one, two or three links from a team that presumably included 90+ players and coaches.  In such cases, I seriously question the utility of creating a navbox.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:37, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Is it fair to say, then, that the FCS champ navboxes have put us on a slippery slope to nonsense? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:41, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Clearly, we could make a strong argument in that case. When we started creating the Division I FBS head coach navboxes three years ago, we had to overcome all sorts of resistance from the TfD regulars, and we had to learn the policies, guidelines and precedents applicable to navboxes in order to defend them.  Many of those policies, guidelines and precedents are clearly applicable in a negative way to these Division I FCS and Division II navboxes.  I just did a quick review of the Gators' 1996, 2006 and 2008 championship navboxes; those examples, which I assume to be fairly typical, have 31, 38 and 39 linked players and coaches, respectively.  I saw only one Division I FCS championship navbox that had ten or more links (1996 Marshall), and the overwhelming majority had fewer than five or six links -- from team that presumably had 85+ scholarship athletes and a half dozen coaches.  I think the TfD regulars could make a very strong slippery slope argument against the majority of these examples, and to be perfectly blunt, I would probably support a TfD "delete" !vote in most of these cases.


 * Perhaps we should be talking to the creator of these templates, SigEp, since he seems to be the only regular CFB editor on a mission to create these Division I FCS and Division II championship navboxes . . . starting with an invitation to join this discussion. Better to air our dirty laundry on WT:CFB than re-opening old wounds at TfD.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

AfD: college football "rivalry" for discussion
Here's an AfD discussion in which I suspect most WP:CFB participants will want to participate: Articles for deletion/Florida–South Carolina football rivalry.

This goes to the core of what a college football rivalry is, and whether we should have a stand-alone Wikipedia article on point. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:43, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

AfD articles for high school rivalry games?
Hi, y'all. Here's another AfD of general interest to CFB editors: Articles for deletion/Kraut Bowl (a high school football rivalry article). It may be time to have a policy discussion here on the WP:CFB talk page because I have discovered several relatively new editors beavering away at creating individual CFB game articles, which we generally frown upon. Please feel free to express your reactions below, and to participate in the linked AfD. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:00, 6 July 2014 (UTC)


 * There's a whole bunch more high school football articles ripe for deletion here. See also the associated templates (e.g. Template:2012 MIL Football Standings).  Jweiss11 (talk) 22:06, 6 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look at the linked articles for the high school conference standings template you posted above, JW. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:43, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

There are now six pending high school football rivalry articles with pending AfD deletion discussions:


 * 1. Articles for deletion/Kraut Bowl - deleted;


 * 2. Articles for deletion/Milk Can Game (high school football) - deleted;


 * 3. Articles for deletion/Axe Game - deleted;


 * 4. Articles for deletion/The Bell Game - deleted;


 * 5. Articles for deletion/Beverly–Salem Thanksgiving Rivalry - redirected; and


 * 6. Articles for deletion/The Great Rivalry (Park vs Horlick) (2nd nomination) - deleted.

There are four or five more high school rivalry articles that I have not nominated because, in my estimation, they probably satisfy the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG. All WP:CFB and WP:NFL editors are invited to express their opinions in these six AfD discussions. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:51, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * AfD results posted above for recent "rivalry" house cleaning. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 08:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Scout.com account or workaround
I need to use Casey Feeding the Hogs, from Scout.com, for a half-line on a reception Chris Gragg made in his freshman year of college (his only catch for the season). If anyone has an account or knows a workaround that would be great. Seattle (talk) 20:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

WKU/Western Kentucky naming
A discussion I've restarted at the main athletic program page, if anyone's interested. Kithira (talk) 22:07, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Regular seasons games of questionable importance so as to warrant an article
Two new articles were created in the last few days by the same editor: 2013 Alabama vs. Texas A&M football game and 2001 Tennessee vs. Florida football game. He is also the creator Primetime Drama, which is set to be merged per a recent AfD. Those two new articles looks like the fall in the same boat. Thoughts? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:25, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The articles are also stylistic nightmares and a virtual tutorial in bad writing. This diff reflects my ridding one of the articles of dozens of uses of that horrific "would" conjugation that way too often finds its way into articles about historic (i.e., past tense) football games. Cbl62 (talk) 03:25, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I've had my eye on this for several weeks, guys. If you want to see what's going on, it's about building out the SEC on CBS navbox: Template:College Football on CBS.  As you will note, there are several recently created single-game articles linked from the template, only one of which has been submitted to a recent AfD.  In my opinion, most, if not all of this material should be merged with rivalry, team season and primary team articles, and the stand-alone game articles deleted.  Most of these games are "notable" (and I use the term loosely) for a single play or catch-phrase that fansites or blogs have tried to attach to the particular game.  And that's true for 80 to 90 percent of single-game stand-alone articles I have seen out there.  Given that several of these are Bama games, I suggest we get Patriarca's opinion and proceed accordingly.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:32, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * My understanding of the established consensus of WP:CFB for single games is for the creation of articles for bowl games and a very limited number of significant regular season games (i.e. "Games of the Century", Hail Flutie, etc.). To open the floodgates for this is worrisome to me in that much of what could be produced would reek of WP:RECENT and WP:NOTNEWS. Further, I feel this discussion should also include all individual articles created for the Chick-fil-A Kickoff Game. With that, here are my initial thoughts on the Bama articles. The Bama-A&M games seem like perfect examples of both WP:RECENT and WP:NOTNEWS due to their media hype and Manziel connections. For the Iron Bowl articles, I am neutral on their inclusion and defer to consensus. Both the Newton comeback and Kick Six were very significant in the history of the rivalry and will forever be referenced by each fanbase specifically. However, I do not know if this notability will extend any further outside of the fanbases with the passage of time. Patriarca12 (talk) 11:38, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * My take on it is that if there is someething unique about the game I might go ahead and create the article. I normally wouldn't seek to delete any game article but I don't encourage articles about a game just to have an article. I'd rather see such details in a season article for a team, or season article for a conference if smaller schools.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Small college coach navboxes
Hello all- I have periodically taken a run through some of the small college football coach navboxes such as those found at Category:NCAA Division III football coach navigational boxes. I have found a couple of issues. First, many seem to be out of date (some for as long as three years). Second, a large number have only one or two coaches who have articles. Is anyone maintaining these? A couple (like Template:Dickinson Red Devils football coach navbox) are very well maintained and someone has taken the initiative to create articles for each coach. Others are barren. I guess my other question is if templates for every small college is necessary/a good idea? I don't think every head football coach meets GNG (certainly at the D1 and some lower division schools they do, but not across the board), and if no one is going to maintain them, what is the purpose? I'm not going to AfD anything, just tossing it out to the WikiProject to raise the concern. Rikster2 (talk) 12:07, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree that all DI head coaches are going to meet GNG and believe that coaching navboxes are helpful for DI programs. Not sure navboxes are needed for all lower level programs, but if they are actively maintained I see no problem with them.  If not maintained for two, three or more years, then the navboxes become problematic and the creator should be nudged to update them. Cbl62 (talk) 16:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Rikster asked me to weigh in on these Division III football coach navboxes. Several weeks ago, we had a discussion about "FCS national champion team navboxes" above.  Consistent with what I said then regarding articles, lists, seasons, navboxes, etc., for lower NCAA division programs, I have no problem with these navboxes in principle, provided they are consistent with other applicable policies and guidelines.  I recognize most of the editors who created these navboxes -- Jweiss11, Jrcla2, Paulmcdonald, Patriarca12, Strikehold, prominent among them -- and I'm not going to be the editor who upsets the apple cart and nominates any of these navboxes for TfD.  That having been said, many if not most of these navboxes do not satisfy one or more of the guidelines of WP:NAVBOX, including the fact that virtually none of these navboxes are supported by a stand-alone Wikipedia article (either a list of coaches or, at a minimum, an article about the football team that lists the coaches), and many if not most these navboxes are overwhelmingly red links.  The basic function of navboxes is to navigate among existing articles, and many of these navboxes fail that fundamental test.  We -- i.e. many of us WP:CFB editors -- fought hard for the general acceptance of navboxes as a replacement for clunky succession boxes for Division I CFB and CBB coaches.  We learned a lot about navbox policy and guidelines in the process of that fight, and I've got to say, guys, that we appear to be fudging those rules in regard to many of these Division III football coach navboxes.  Be aware that many of these could be fairly deleted in TfDs that properly applied the consensus policies and guidelines . . . .  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * What happens is that what today is a small division III college could easily have been a major player back in the day (University of Chicago, Yale, etc) and what was a small school back then could have grown to a major player today (Georgia Tech, Oklahoma, Boisis State). Then we have the issue of small college coaches that achieve the big time (Jerry Kill, Dennis Franchione) or go on to earn Hall of Fame status (Bennie Owen and Ted Kessinger, both from tiny little Bethany College in Kansas).  Then you've got college coaches at small schools that go on to other notable roles (like Andrew Frank Schoeppel).  What ends up happening is that it just seems that college football coaches tend to pass WP:GNG for a crazy variety of reasons.--Paul McDonald (talk) 17:56, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Paul, I certainly didn't mean to imply that ALL small college coaches wouldn't meet GNG. But a good number of the templates I was working (and only got through "H" of the D3 coach templates) had 20-30 coaches on the template and literally one or two blue links.  I really don't believe that all or even most head coaches from places like Earlham College and Concordia Chicago would meet GNG.  The issue I see is that many of the templates aren't updated and I'd question the notability of a lot of the redlinks on them (and frankly don't ever see a lot of those turning into articles).  The way we have handled it at WP:CBBALL (and I don't claim this is the perfect solution) is that we had a major initiative a few years back to create head coach templates for every D1 school (even past ones like the U of Chicago and NYU).  Beyond that, we have a total of 20 head coach templates below that level (D2, D3 and NAIA) - about half of which are former D1 programs (by comparison, college football has 328 templates below the FBS/FCS level, not including defunct programs).  Occasionally someone will feel itchy because, say, Jim Valvano has templates for every other coaching stop so they create Template:Johns Hopkins Blue Jays men's basketball coach navbox - but are most of the other guys on that template really notable?  And if not, why is there a template?  Like I said, I am not here to tell you guys what to do - I am a big believer that the projects can police themselves within the WP guidelines on most of this stuff, I'm just raising the issue so you guys can deicde if you want to address it or not.  I'm as pro-sports as you'll find around here so I don't bring up notability questions from a place of trying to reduce WP articles on athletes/coaches. Rikster2 (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't thinking that you were. I'm just throwing in some ideas and thoughts over the last (gasp) seven years I've been doing this...--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Chris Gragg
Chris Gragg is a current featured article candidate. If you have the time, please do take a look. Thanks. Seattle (talk) 21:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)


 * If anyone has a subscription to rivals.com, I could use "Lumberjacks prove they are for real", "Warren stars shine", and "Gragg makes pledge to Nutt" from the aforementioned source for Chris Gragg, a featured article candidate. Thanks. Seattle (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

AfD: Simon B. Gray
Not directly related to this project, per se, but of tangential interest to some members here as an NCAA Division I athletic director. Please see: Articles for deletion/Simon B. Gray. Thanks, Ejgreen77 (talk) 21:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Playoff semifinal games
This is the first year of the college football championship game, and this year the semi-final games will be the Rose Bowl and the Sugar Bowl. Fine, but the article about the 2015 Rose Bowl says more specifically that this year it will have the #1 vs. #4 ranked teams, and the article about the 2015 Sugar Bowl says that it will have the #2 vs. #3 ranked teams. Do we have a reliable reference for that? — Mudwater (Talk) 11:36, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello. It looks like you added that information, here and here.  Do we have a reference for this?  — Mudwater (Talk) 22:23, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Here's an article on FBSchedules, dated two days ago: "College Football Playoff Protocol Released". In the "Parings for Semifinals" section, it says, "When assigning teams to sites, the committee will place the top two seeds at the most advantageous sites, weighing criteria such as convenience of travel for its fans, home-crowd advantage or disadvantage and general familiarity with the host city and its stadium. Preference will go to the No. 1 seed." That really makes it sound like the committee is going to decide which game gets #1 vs #4, and which game gets #2 vs. #3, only after the final rankings are set.  So I'm going to update the two articles accordingly. — Mudwater (Talk) 12:58, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Here's another source that strongly supports the idea that the decision will be made after the final rankings are in. From USA Today, an article from April 2013 called "Questions and Answers for the College Football Playoff": "The selection committee's goal will be to protect the top two seeds from playing in road environments in semifinal games. For instance, if Southern Cal was the No. 1 seed and LSU was the No. 4 in 2014, that semifinal could be played in the Rose Bowl but not the Sugar Bowl." — Mudwater (Talk) 13:16, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I see your edit summaries, one of which says "No. 1 team plays earlier game usually". That's logical, but as you can see from my previous posts in this section, apparently that's not the case here, as the sources I've mentioned indicate that the CFP committee will decide which teams play in which games based on other factors, after the final rankings are announced. — Mudwater (Talk) 18:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * , and other interested editors: I've enhanced the references for the 2015 Rose Bowl article so show that which teams will play there -- either #1 vs. #4, or #2 vs. #3 -- will be determined after the season. The same references can be used for the 2015 Sugar Bowl article. — Mudwater (Talk) 13:17, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Cal–UCLA rivalry
Aside from Cal–UCLA rivalry's title not adhering to naming conventions, is this a notable cfb rivalry? Jrcla2 (talk) 02:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't researched it but, as a UCLA alum, my sense is that it was probably a bigger rivalry historically (1930s - 1950s) than in the modern era. Cbl62 (talk) 15:48, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, this "rivalry" includes the two most prominent state universities in California, both of which have been competitive members of the same sports conference for almost 100 years. I think Cbl's assessment is probably right, that this was bigger in the past, but that doesn't nullify the series' past and present notability as a rivalry.  There are at least three dozen other CFB "rivalry" articles I would nominate for AfD before I would even consider doing the archives research to make an educated decision on Cal-UCLA.  Like Cbl, my gut instinct tells me this one survives as a notable rivalry with plenty of margin for error.  I suggest we move it to the properly titled "Cal-UCLA football rivalry," and focus on lower hanging fruit.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:32, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess the question is if this rivalry has been documented in reliable sources over time. If it was a big deal in (say) the 50s it could still meet notability standards since notability is not temporary.  That said WP:NSPORTS makes a point of saying that rivalries aren't inherently notable.  Most people would agree that Cal-Stanford and UCLA-USC are notable rivalries but this one probably needs some research to verify. Rikster2 (talk) 17:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Two more AfDs for CFB "rivalry" games
I nominated another two "rivalry" games for deletion:


 * 1. Articles for deletion/Missouri–South Carolina football rivalry ; - deleted at AfD


 * 2. Articles for deletion/Mississippi State - Vanderbilt football rivalry - deleted at AfD

In my opinion, neither of these games has significant in-depth coverage as a rivalry in independent, reliable sources to establish its notability, and neither of these series satisfies anyone's definition of a traditional college rivalry. Please feel free to share your opinions on the AfD pages. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Update: Both "rivalry" articles listed above were deleted today at AfD as non-notable per WP:NRIVALRY and WP:GNG. Thanks to you all WP:CFB editors who participated in the AfD discussions.  I expect that we will be nominating other non-notable CFB "rivalry" articles for AfD in the coming days, but I will post the next set of proposed AfDs on this talk page to vet them among all CFB editors before submitting them.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:08, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Another CFB "rivalry" article nominated for deletion discussion
A non-WP:CFB editor nominated another CFB rivalry article at AfD: Articles for deletion/Arkansas-Baylor football rivalry. The opinions of WP:CFB editors are solicited. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Another set of eyes on Central Michigan Chippewas football
Can I get another set of eyes on the current state of Central Michigan Chippewas football? I've tried to keep an NPOV on the article, but an anonymous user disagrees. Thanks. — X96lee15 (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump while the All-American checklist isn't getting updated. — X96lee15 (talk) 17:15, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

College football All-America campaign (1889-1969)
There has been much discussion recently about which articles and templates should be deleted, and there's definitely room for that discussion. However, what's been lacking is a concerted effort to expand Wikipedia's coverage of key college football topics. It's striking that we still don't have articles about every consensus first-team All-American. As of this morning, we had roughly 90 holes from 1894 1889 to 1969. If anyone wants to adopt one of these missing All-Americans, I'd be happy to chip in with whatever information I can find. (I've taken the first four and created them today.) So, consider claiming one (or more), and let's see if our project can turn all the red links to blue links by the time the 2014 college football season comes to an end. If you take one on, please strike it from the list below so we know it's done. Cbl62 (talk) 06:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

James P. Lee - 1889 halfback (Harvard) ; Phillip Stillman - 1894 center (Yale) ; John Hall - 1897 end (Yale) ; Lew Palmer - 1898 end (Princeton) ; Charles Romeyn - 1898 fullback (Army) ; William Lee - 1901 guard (Harvard) ; Arthur Tipton - 1904 center (Army) ; Joseph Gilman - 1904 guard (Dartmouth) ; William Erwin - 1907 guard (Army) ; Patrick Grant - 1907 center (Harvard) ; Edwin Harlan - 1907 halfback (Princeton) ; John Wendell - 1907 halfback (Harvard) ; Peter Hauser - 1907 fullback (Carlisle Indian School) ; Ed Lange - 1908 quarterback (Navy) ; William Goebel - 1908 guard (Yale) ; Bernard O'Rourke - 1908 guard (Cornell) ; Charles Nourse - 1908 center (Harvard) ; Hamilton Corbett - 1908 halfback (Harvard) ; Frederick Tibbott - 1908 halfback (Princeton) ; Edward Hart - 1911 tackle (Princeton) ; John Logan - 1912 guard (Princeton) ; Ray Keeler - 1913 guard (Wisconsin) ; Neno DaPrato - 1915 halfback (Michigan State) ; Clinton Black - 1916 guard (Yale) ; Frank T. Hogg - 1916 guard (Princeton) ; Charles Bolen - 1917 end (Ohio State) ; Henry Miller - 1917 and 1919 end (Penn) ; Alfred Cobb - 1917 tackle (Syracuse) ; Eugene Neeley - 1917 guard (Dartmouth) ; Leonard Hilty - 1918 tackle (Pitt) ; Lyman Perry - 1918 guard (Navy) ; Ashel Day - 1918 center (Georgia Tech) ; Jack Depler - 1918 center (Illinois) ; Wolcott Roberts - 1918 halfback (Navy) ; James Weaver - 1919 center (Centre College) ; Charles Carpenter - 1919 center (Wisconsin) ; Charles Carney - 1920 end (Illinois) ; Tim Callahan - 1920 guard (Yale) ; Charles Way - 1920 halfback (Penn State) ; Tom Woods - 1920 guard (Harvard) ; Malcolm Aldrich - 1921 halfback (Yale) ; John Fiske Brown - 1921 guard (Harvard) ; Wendell Taylor - 1922 end (Navy) ; Pete MacRae - 1923 end (Syracuse) ; Jim Lawson - 1924 end (Stanford) ; Dick Luman - 1924 end (Yale) ; Henry Wakefield - 1924 end (Vanderbilt) ; Joe Pondelik - 1924 guard (Chicago) ; Ed McMillan - 1925 guard (Princeton) ; Ed Hess - 1925 guard (Ohio State) ; Ralph Chase - 1925 tackle (Pitt) ; George Tully - 1925 end (Dartmouth) ; Harry Connaughton - 1926 guard (Georgetown) ; Bud Boeringer - 1926 center (Notre Dame) ; John Charlesworth - 1927 center (Yale) ; Bill Webster - 1927 guard (Yale) ; Ed Hake - 1927 tackle (Penn) ; Irvine Phillips - 1928 end (California) ; Seraphim Post - 1928 guard (Stanford) ; Don Robesky - 1928 guard (Stanford) ; Edward Burke - 1928 guard (Navy) ; Ray Montgomery - 1929 guard (Pitt) ; Ted Beckett - 1930 guard (California) ; Dallas Marvil - 1931 tackle (Northwestern) ; Milton Summerfelt - 1932 guard (Army) ; Clarence Gracey - 1932 center (Vanderbilt) ; Paul Geisler - 1933 end (Centenary) ; Frank Larson - 1934 end (Minnesota) ; Chuck Hartwig - 1934 guard (Pitt); Bill Bevan - 1934 guard (Minnesota) ; Jack Robinson - 1934 center (Notre Dame) ; George Shotwell - 1934 center (Pitt) ; Chuck Sweeney - 1937 end (Notre Dame) ; Andy Bershak - 1937 end (North Carolina) ; Esco Sarkkinen - 1939 end (Ohio State) ; David Rankin - 1940 end (Purdue) ; Phil Tinsley - 1944 end (Georgia Tech) ; Paul Walker - 1944 end (Yale) ; Jack Dugger - 1944 end (Ohio State) ; Ben Chase - 1944 guard (Navy) ; Bill Hackett - 1944 guard (Ohio State) ; Bob Jenkins - 1944 halfback (Navy) ; Dick Hightower - 1951 center (SMU) ; Johnny Karras - 1951 halfback (Illinois) ; Elmer Willhoite - 1952 guard (USC) ; Frank McPhee - 1952 end (Princeton) ; Don Dohoney - 1953 end (Mich. St.) ; Crawford Mims - 1953 guard (Mississippi) ; Paul Cameron - 1953 halfback (UCLA) ; Bo Bolinger - 1955 guard (Oklahoma) ; John Witte - 1956 tackle (Oregon State) ; George Deiderich - 1958 guard (Vanderbilt) ; John Guzik - 1958 guard (Pitt) ; Danny LaRose - 1960 end (Missouri) ; Dick Arrington - 1965 guard (Notre Dame) ; Freeman White - 1965 end (Nebraska) ; Jim Breland - 1966 center (Ga. Tech) ; Laverne Allers - 1966 guard (Nebraska) ; Rich Stotter - 1967 guard (Houston) ; Tom Schoen - 1967 def. back (Notre Dame) ; Don Manning - 1967 linebacker (UCLA); Adrian Young - 1967 linebacker (USC) ; Jim Barnes - 1968 guard (Arkansas) ; . Cbl62 (talk) 06:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Cbl, I'll adopt the following seven:
 * 1. Ashel Day - 1918 center (Georgia Tech);
 * 2. Henry Wakefield - 1924 end (Vanderbilt);
 * 3. Clarence Gracey - 1932 center (Vanderbilt);
 * 4. Phil Tinsley - 1944 end (Georgia Tech);
 * 5. Crawford Mims - 1953 guard (Mississippi);
 * 6. George Deiderich - 1958 guard (Vanderbilt);
 * 7. Jim Breland - 1966 center (Ga. Tech); and
 * 8. Rock Perdoni - 1970 def. tackle (Georgia Tech).
 * FYI, I've been working on clean-up of All-American articles from the present backward for the last three years, and I had no idea that someone else was working on finishing out the articles for old-time All-Americans. The consensus All-Americans are core subjects for WP:CFB, and it would be great if all CFB project members could put some effort into stubbing out this last group of them.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 09:58, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * If I mark out any red links, I am working on them. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 18:26, 17 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Alfred Cobb – 1917 (Syracuse) article already exist. It is under Alf Cobb. It is stub and need some work.   09er (talk) 18:42, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks to all. 17  20 24 down in less than two days!  Let's keep plugging away. Cbl62 (talk) 20:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * While other people argue over trivial matters, others actually get stuff done lol. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 22:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Another one is already exist. James Weaver - 1919 center (Centre College)  It is under Red Weaver.  I also found a good source but won't be able to update for a few days. 09er (talk) 14:22, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent work. Thanks, 09er. Cbl62 (talk) 15:45, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Another one Malcolm Aldrich is Mal Aldrich [ source]
 * Woo hoo! It's nice when they're already there. Cbl62 (talk) 17:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * People should do community projects like this more often. Look how much we've got done. Most of the time editors just spend their time wandering around aimlessly anyway. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 17:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. We've made huge progress ( 35 38 red links turned blue) in less than three days. With a few more people grabbing one or two, we might be able to complete the list before the college football season kicks off. Cbl62 (talk) 00:19, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * One more that already exist. Edward Hart - 1911 tackle (Princeton) is Ed Hart. [ source ]I will try to expand. 09er (talk) 22:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * John Witte's birth/death dates need more verification and George Shotwell needs dates added. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 16:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Get User:Crazypaco's help with Shotwell. CrazyPaco is a big Pitt guy, and should know the Pitt-specific references, and it looks like there are 4 or 5 other Pitt All-Americans listed above.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Eugene Neeley turns out to be a very interesting case. He became a consensus All-American despite having only one arm.  If anyone wants to help build this one up, it might be a good candidate to be featured on the DYK portion of the Main Page. Cbl62 (talk) 17:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Not quite four days into the campaign, and we've knocked out 54 red links. Thanks to WikiOriginal-9, Dirtlawyer1, 09er, MisterCake, and Jweiss11 for all their contributions.  If everyone can grab one or more of the remaining red links, we should be able to finish this! Cbl62 (talk) 22:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * We are making such good progress that I took the liberty of moving the goal post backward to 1889 and then forward to 1971, which added another few players. Cbl62 (talk) 02:26, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You are Lucy and we are Charlie Brown. 09er (talk) 14:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Not to disrupt our current endeovor, there are 61 red links after 1971. I'm doing these. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 15:38, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * We have now eliminated 73 redlinks from the list above. Only 37 left. Cbl62 (talk) 02:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Impressive, I've been working on red links past 1971, so there is progress there too. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 02:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * In one week's time, we have filled in over 100 red links, which is pretty darn impressive. Big round of applause for everyone who's been working at this.  Only two more redlinks left in Part I ... who's gonna grab 'em? Cbl62 (talk) 06:32, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I will try to get Don Manning started today. Who gets the honor of doing Barnes? 09er (talk) 13:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll take a stab Jim Barnes. Cbl62 (talk) 17:56, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Mission accomplished! All redlinks are now gone! Cbl62 (talk) 19:10, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 19:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Great work, all. Just for future reference, Shotwell, Hess, Callahan and Lange are the only ones missing vital date info now. Fiske Brown is missing exact dates. I'm working on them. Connormah (talk) 19:25, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Articles needing work

 * Seraphim Post and George Shotwell need "places of birth/death" + "birth/death dates" WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 00:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Cbl62 (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I looked into Shotwell and he is a tough one. Nothing on the SSDI but I did add an approximate year of birth. Last mention of him was a news article stating he was in a VA hospital in 1973 or 1974. Could have died shortly thereafter or fairly recently. Connormah (talk) 05:47, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Bill Hackett needs date of birth 09er (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Cbl62 (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Cbl, I need some of those magical geneology.com search skills to find (a) Clarence Gracey's birth (~1911) and death dates; (b) Phil Tinsley's exact birth date (~1923) and a diligent search for obituaries to semi-confirm he's still alive; and (c) a diligent search for obituaries to semi-confirm Crawford Mims is still alive. I'll continue to try to plug the holes with my available resources.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:03, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Gracey was straightforward. Left a note on your talk page re Tinsley. Cbl62 (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Bud Boeringer needs birth and death info.09er (talk) 04:23, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Cbl62 (talk) 04:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Tony Cristiani - birth date/place WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 19:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Not so easily answered. There are multiple possible matches: (1) Anthony P "Tony" Cristiani, born July 9, 1951 (has lived in Florida and North Carolina), (2) Antonio J Cristiani, no DOB available (has lived in Miami, FL), (3) Anthony F Cristiani, born July 11, 1953, has lived in New York, NY), and (4) Anthony A Cristiani, born June 21, 1956 (has lived in California -- also least likely due to DOB).  Can't be confident which one is correct.  If you could track down better information on a middle name or initial, that would help. Cbl62 (talk) 23:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It would also be dangerous to guess because of BLP issues. Cbl62 (talk) 23:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Cbl, I would be grateful if you could locate a full name for George Deiderich by means of your usual magic. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:52, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * All the records I find just list a middle initial "R." He may have just had the middle initial. Cbl62 (talk) 23:08, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Ashel M. Day, nicknamed "Bum" Day. Born c. 1897.  Cbl, we're missing DOB, POB, DOD, POD, degree information.  Anything you can find would be helpful.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:00, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Cbl62 (talk) 02:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Larry DiNardo needs birth date and place. 09er (talk) 03:09, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sources are much harder to come by for more "modern" players. DiNardo is more complicated yet, because "Larry" is undoubted his true given name.  Tried a couple variations, but didn't find anything definitive.  There's a Gerald L. DiNardo (17 Jun 1950 - 10 Jul 2013) that's possibly linked, but not clear enough to put into main space. Cbl62 (talk) 03:22, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Lawrence C. DiNardo is the best I can come up with. Here is a link to his Résumé at his current law firm.  It lists a phone number but calling him is probably original research.  Shoot, I guess he can go with out. 09er (talk) 03:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Having the correct name and middle initial did the trick. DOB now in the article. Cbl62 (talk) 04:15, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Ray Montgomery need date of birth 09er (talk) 19:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Connormah (talk) 05:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Laverne Allers needs both date of birth and death 09er (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * My database searches don't find a match. Cbl62 (talk) 06:36, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Dick Arrington‎ needs date of birth 09er (talk) 02:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Joe Pondelik needs POB, exact DOD, and POD. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:01, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Don Manning Need DOB

FCS ranking archive?
Does anyone have an archive of TSN FCS rankings from 2010? I'm currently doing this, and I'm trying to find if Dayton had a ranking before the final poll. Thanks!&mdash; CycloneIsaac ( Talk ) 21:05, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

New team captains navbox
Hey, ya'll, here's a newly created CFB navbox: Template:Vanderbilt Commodores football captains navbox. I would like to get the reaction of other WP:CFB editors. . . . Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably not a good idea. Once there's one of them, they will proliferate and cover co-captains, tri-captains, then team MVPs, etc. At core, though, I think it's a bad idea because there's not a sufficient basis for presuming that every captain of every college football team is notable enough to warrant a stand-alone article. I would support nipping this in the bud. Cbl62 (talk) 03:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Didn't even notice before, but there are 9 co-captains listed for the 2013 season alone! Cbl62 (talk) 03:21, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete Jweiss11 (talk) 04:00, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete. What's this thing even sourced to? - BilCat (talk) 04:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I am opposed to this idea. Clever thinking and creative... but if the project supported it, I fear we'd lose credibility in notability discussions.--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * FTLOGPDTASAP is going to be my new abbreviation for For The Love Of God Please Delete This ASAP. Jrcla2 (talk) 15:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Given the fairly strong and uniformly negative reaction from WP:CFB regulars, I have nominated this template for deletion at TfD: Templates for discussion/Log/2014 August 16. Please feel free to express your opinions at TfD.  Thanks.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * P.S. Jrcla, I suggest you propose that as a new XfD policy argument: WP:FTLOGPDTASAP.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * TfD UPDATE: The example of a CFB team captains navbox identified above was deleted at TfD today. I assume, based on the pre-TfD discussion several section above, that we do not want to expand our existing list of WP:CFB-sanctioned succession navboxes at this time.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:59, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Individual CFB team statistical leaders
Just saw this new class of articles being created by what appears to be a single editor: Ole Miss Rebels football statistical leaders. What are the reactions of other WP:CFB editors? I foresee potential problems with the notability guidelines per WP:GNG, as well as the general prohibition against statistics lists per WP:NOTSTATS. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:10, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I am the creator of these pages. I didn't compile the stats all alone (I have created a public Google Docs page to help facilitate other people contributing: (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QShWcrG1HzbV0_1ZNEZNy3aYmeTJqMCaVRxikOgbSY8/edit?usp=sharing), but I am the one who has uploaded them onto Wikipedia. I believe these articles DO fit in with Wikipedia's guidelines, because college teams make a big deal about school records, especially when players break them. All of the information comes straight from school's media guides, which are often not really easy for random curious people to access. Also, there were a few pages like this already out there, but I created this series to try to standardize a style for them, and I'm certainly open to suggestions/improvements. Jhn31 (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Lists of Michigan Wolverines football statistical leaders is another example that's been around for a few years. I find it to be very useful, and it's diligently updated (mostly by,  and me).  Formats vary greatly, but these types of lists are found across Wikipedia's sports coverage.  See, e.g., Mississippi State Bulldogs women's basketball statistical leaders, Ohio State Buckeyes football yearly statistical leaders, Dallas Mavericks all-time roster and statistics leaders, List of statistics and records of NCL T20. Cbl62 (talk) 20:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Cbl, how do you square that with WP:NOTSTATS, whereby articles which consist of list of statistics without sourced text are not supposed to exist? Or the failure to demonstrate the notability of the subject with significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources per the general notability guidelines of WP:GNG?  And, in particular, the failure to source these articles with anything other than the team media guides, which are not independent sources for purposes of demonstrating the notability of the subject?  Am I missing something here, or is this an "I like it" situation?  As has been mentioned before, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a sports almanac, and stand-alone statistics lists start to look a lot like trivia.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I may be wrong, but it's always been my understanding that WP:NOTSTATS is guideline designed to apply to articles, which should be narrative in nature and not amount to mere regurgitation of statistics. I do not believe it has ever been applied to lists, where we have thousands of statistical lists in the sports world.  List of college football coaches with 200 wins, List of Major League Baseball players with 1,000 runs batted in, List of basketball players who have scored 100 points in a single game, List of NFL teams with fewest points scored, and on and on and on. Cbl62 (talk) 21:00, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I've been working under the understanding that lists are articles. And two out of the four articles you listed immediately above comply: they have significant introductory text and analysis.  As does your List of Michigan Wolverines football statistical leaders.  Several of the others are clearly non-compliant.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:11, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure where the article vs. list dichotomy is laid out, but it has long been recognized by the baseball project. For example, charts of player statistics are not allowed in articles about individual players, which are to stay narrative. Statistical listings, on the other hand, are set forth in stand-alone "lists" for all manner of baseball statistics. The baseball statistics template collects many of these lists.  I've included it below, so you can see how widespread and accepted the practice is in the baseball project. Cbl62 (talk) 21:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Cbl, but I am familiar with WP Baseball's collection of list articles, many of which consist of a sentence or less of text. I've never had the inclination to rain on their parade, and have simply ignored an obvious issue.  I do recall several baseball lists that were deleted at AfD when the article supporters could not produce quality sources to support the notability of the specific list subjects, and those AfDs were fairly blood affairs as two or three WP Baseball regulars were willing to defend the particular lists to the last man.  Ultimately, those particular lists were deleted with 65%+ !vote majorities.  Several of the long-time baseball guys actually know the notability guidelines pretty well, and also know how to bring a given list into compliance pretty quickly if they believe it's an important one.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If possible, could you provide a link to the AfDs where baseball statistical lists were deleted? Cbl62 (talk) 21:42, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I reviewed the archive. The AfDs on baseball statistical lists have generally resulted in "Keep" decisions despite WP:NOTSTAT challenges.  See runs scored champions, NL slugging % leaders, players with 2000 hits, to 500 home run hitters.  The "Delete" decisions have generally come in cases of truly trivial lists. E.g. win leaders "by birthplace". Which ones were you thinking of? Cbl62 (talk) 21:59, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * LOL @"List of Major League Baseball win leaders by birthplace"! That's excessive even in a sport fanbase known for its OCD fascination with stats and trivia.  I can only imagine what they were using for sources -- or did it consist entirely of original research per WP:OR?  Anyway, here is the multi-article AfD I had in mind: Articles for deletion/List of Baltimore Orioles Opening Day starting lineups.  Six baseball lists got whacked as a result, and these weren't even close to being "core" lists for WP Baseball.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The issue you have raised involves two very different issues: (1) does WP:NOTSTAT bar the creation of such a list of statistical leaders? (and I think precedent shows pretty clearly that it does not), and (2) does the particular list cover a statistic/topic that passes GNG (and that is a question that would have to be answered on a case-by-case basis). Cbl62 (talk) 22:47, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * My interpretation of NOTSTATS is that it's supposed to prohibit articles that are primarily lists of stats, with little introductory, explanatory or analytical text. If I'm right, these newly created articles clearly do not comply.  One or two sentences of introductory text don't cut it.  The nature and significance of the stats categories need to be explained, and some team-specific historical context and analysis should be there, too.
 * We agree on the notability analysis per GNG -- some team stats will make it and others won't. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't object to adding more introductory text, of course. I'm just trying to get the ball rolling right now, and then whoever can expand with text as they see fit. Jhn31 (talk) 23:18, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Jhn, there about a dozen active editors who participate in WP:CFB, most of whom are busy with their own project to-do lists, as well as real life. We're all busy volunteers here. Do not expect someone else to take your newly created stats articles and "expand them with text as they see fit" to fix them.  Adding columns of stats from media guides is the easy, fun part.  You need to be prepared to make your new articles mostly compliant from the git-go.  We do not need another 120 unsourced articles that need to be fixed by "someone else."  If you're serious about this, I would be willing to provide advice on how to do it right -- assuming this is something a majority of CFB editors believe WP:CFB should undertake.
 * We also need to discuss how we are going to address the notability issue, which is going to be case-by-case, as Cbl62 alluded above. A program like Alabama, with a football-nutty statewide media and a national following is probably going to generate sufficient significant coverage of its career stats leaders to be notable.  Vanderbilt?  Well, that's going to be a much tougher call, and Ole Miss and Mississippi State are going to fall somewhere in between.  If we're going to do this, we need a strategy going in, so we can defend these articles in AfD later, after a considerable investment of time and effort, as well as the not-insignificant annual maintenance these articles will require to keep them current and properly sourced.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I really don't follow your logic of "Alabama's stats leaders are notable enough, but Vanderbilt's might not be." If some of the SEC gets an article, it all should. I still think you are drastically underestimating how big of a deal media outlets make about these school records -- speaking of Vanderbilt, do you remember how much press Jordan Matthews got for blazing through Vandy's record book?
 * Lists like these are a reason people come to Wikipedia -- that's why there's so many baseball lists like this, and NFL lists, and other pro sports list. For example, both Ole Miss and Mississippi State's starting QBs this year have a chance to become the schools' career passing yards leaders before they are done. MSU's career receiving yards record may fall this year. People like to keep up with how close they are to breaking the record and see who they are surpassing. Jhn31 (talk)  20:25, August 24, 2014
 * Jhn, if you don't understand why Alabama stats leaders are probably notable and why Vanderbilt's stats leaders may or may not be, then you don't understand how notability is determined by the existence (or not) of significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources per WP:GNG. You really need to read the guidelines and grasp the concept.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:51, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Did I ever say that Vanderbilt and Alabama are of equal notability? Of course not... However, Vanderbilt and Alabama's statistical leaders are both notable enough to warrant inclusion on Wikipedia is my point. I don't know how closely you follow SEC football in particular, but Jordan Matthews' rise through Vandy's records was very well documented. I feel like these easily fit Wikipedia's level of notability -- it's not like anyone's writing one for Mississippi College. It's fine if you don't, but you shouldn't act like it's so obvious that anyone who disagrees must just not have a clue about what's allowed here and what's not. Jhn31 (talk) 01:22, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Jhn31: "Vanderbilt and Alabama's statistical leaders are both notable enough to warrant inclusion on Wikipedia." As I said before, Jhn, that remains to be determined by an evaluation of the significant coverage of these lists of team statistical leaders in multiple, independent, reliable sources per WP:GNG.  When you omit any independent, reliable sources (i.e., mainstream newspapers, sports magazines, and books) from these newly created lists of stats, you are leaving the hard work to be done by someone else.  Not every Division I FBS football program's stats leaders are going to be notable.  Those are my points.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course school records are notable. Schools able make a pretty big deal when someone breaks one. Any game where one of these records is broken will include a mention in the major media articles about the game. It's not like the articles I made list obscure stats like punt return yards or extra point percentages -- just the major stats that people care about.Jhn31 (talk) 21:04, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI, Jhn, "notability" on Wikipedia has its own definition, which generally depends on the demonstrated existence of significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources. Generally speaking, newspapers, magazines, books, and other mainstream media articles count as independent and reliable sources, but NCAA, conference and team media guides, and other university publications and websites are not considered independent for purposes of establishing "notability" for stand-alone Wikipedia articles.  You may want to have a look at WP:GNG and WP:RS.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Where are you getting that this is obscure trivia only covered in media guides? Again, schools and media outlets make a big deal about these records. For example, this game article from ESPN.com focuses heavily on Anthony Dixon becoming MSU's all-time rushing leader, even getting the headline: http://espn.go.com/ncf/recap?id=292902393 I am familiar with the notability rules, and I am confident that these lists meet the guidelines and are consistent what it is found for other sports throughout Wikipedia. Jhn31 (talk) 22:01, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Here are my $0.02 for what their worth. I do no necessarily have a problem with these types of lists if they are developed more in a manner similar to Lists of Michigan Wolverines football statistical leaders. I feel this format at least addresses some of the WP:NOTSTATS issues and would easily pass WP:GNG as it is cited well in addition to having significant text to help provide context for the records later in the article. My issue is in the blanket creation of these types of articles without the time taken to add the necessary text to help address WP:NOTSTATS issues. In all honesty, I have the development of one of these types of articles on my list of "to dos" for Alabama one day, but have been focused on the expansion of individual Crimson Tide season articles for a while. I do appreciate the enthusiasm, but do wish more time was taken to improve upon what is already existing and in desperate need of sources and expansion. Patriarca12 (talk) 00:44, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

An idea that could change HUNDREDS of article names
I have noticed that a call to change the name of certain teams such as Talk:Austin Peay State Governors and Lady Govs and Talk:Emporia State Hornets between team and Lady team names. But there is an editor who is calling to rename the articles Austin Peay Sports, and eventually University of Michigan Sports etc. Is there a specific reason that team pages are referred to as Oklahoma Sooners, Emporia State Hornets, Michigan Wolverines and not Oklahoma Sports or University of Wisconsin-Madison Sports? I personally like the conformity because I know what to expect on a specific page. So what should the names be, and why were they already posted as such? (Sorry if I opened a can of worms. BOOMER)! UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The naming pattern for college football articles is the well established consensus across at least the WikiProjects for college football, college basketball and college baseball, and all of the other college sports follow the same patterns. The only variations are those that you have noted above, where a minority of women's teams still retain some formulation of "Lady ____" in their official team names.  These are not only the consensus naming conventions on Wikipedia, but they track the official names of the teams as well as majority practice in the major mainstream sports media.  Anyone wanting to change the Wikipedia college sport naming conventions to something different is going to face an uphill battle based on the Wikipedia article naming guidelines (see WP:COMMONNAME), as well as the resistance of virtually all regular sports editors.  Good luck with that.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Dirtlawyer, this is what he appears to be talking about (see here, and here, and here, and here). FWIW, I totally agree that this is an off-the-wall proposal that flies in the face of all long-standing consensus of the college sports projects and WP:COMMONNAME. Ejgreen77 (talk) 01:47, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to the proposed "Hornets and Lady Hornets" move, or SMcC's proposal for "University of ______ sports?" Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the latter, I know this was set up the way it was for a reason. I will leave my opinion on this out of this thread. But, I just like standardization that is why I asked for the appropriate method.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it would not be the first time SMcC has kicked in the door where angels fear to tread; he's a self-styled expert on article titles, and has made himself quite unpopular by challenging existing naming conventions, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly. What's your take on the "and Lady ____" proposal?  I could go either way on it, depending on the preferences of the editors who work on the particular college's articles.  If they add the "and Lady _____," then they also need to create redirects for the separate make and female team names, so nothing gets lost and readers can still find the articles easily.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:04, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well since you asked I would prefer to "exclude Lady____" but I could see how it is necessary. In the end I thought there was a purpose for the naming scheme. In the ESU talk page I didn't like the ____ athletics idea because it could cause many more problems than it solves. I wanted people who are experts on the topic to weigh in, even if they disagreed with either my POV on the lady or athletic issue. Like I stated earlier I am a sucker for orthodoxy. UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the "Lady ____" may or may not be necessary on a case-by-case basis. I have noted that ESPN seems to intentionally avoid the "Lady ____" construction, so WP:COMMONNAME probably turns on how the hometown newspaper, regional media, and other national media usually refer to the particular women's teams.  Some of these women's teams are quite adamant about keeping "Lady" in their team names, and who are we to argue otherwise?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay, EJ and Bluejay, I left a comment on all four talk page discussions, which will hopefully put SMcC's off-the-wall renaming proposal to bed. If y'all have any more questions or problems with this, ping me. I've watch-listed all four talk pages, and will try to monitor the discussions until they close. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Idea why not have the "Lady _______" articles simply be a redirect to the main sprots artcile? Such as, Emporia State Lady Hornets redirects to Emporia State Hornets?  And I'd further suggest that only be done for schools where two names actually happen--there are (to my knowledge) no Kansas State Lady Wildcats references, although they offer a wide variaty of women's sports under the name "Wildcats".  This solution preserves the existing standard and honors those articles that have a difference.--Paul McDonald (talk) 17:58, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Paul, that would work form me, but I am going to defer on the inclusion of "Lady ____" construction in the main sports program to those editors who work regularly with the particular sports programs in question. Since largely dropping out of favor over the last 30-odd years, the "Lady ____" formulation remains in use to a greater or lesser degree among a minority of women's college sports teams.  Some feminists think the "Lady" distinction is sexist, while some of these individual women's sports programs and teams remain adamantly committed to keeping "Lady" in their official team names.  I think my American universities (Florida and Virginia) are more typical, in that they have dropped the "Lady" from their official team names, but continue to use "Lady" whenever they feel like it.  Fair enough.  It could be as simple as including "Lady Gators" in bolded text at the outset of the Florida Gators article (with an appropriate redirect, as you suggest), but other programs and teams are more adamant about their use, and I see no reason why that cannot be accommodated in some form or fashion.  What we don't need is entirely new and different scheme for naming of our American college sports articles as one editor has proposed in the four Requested Move discussions linked in EJGreen's comment above.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm going to send an invitation for input at WikiProject Women's History.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

College Football Portal
Hey gang, we need to make an effort in the next few days to update the College Football Portal. It should really just take a few articles and some fresh images. Who's game? Let's collaborate over at Portal talk:College football.--Paul McDonald (talk) 00:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Conference Membership Tables
I have noticed some movement in the Conference Membership Tables on conference pages, and I was wondering if there is/should be a set format title, and composition for conference membership tables. I have noticed differences in the Atlantic Coast Conference, Southeastern Conference, Big 12 Conference, Missouri Valley Conference, and several Division II such as Mid-America Intercollegiate Athletics Association Heartland Conference, Division III, and NAIA. Should they all include Titles, Sports, City Population, Mascot etc. If there is a precedent that has already been set I would like to know. Should all conferences include the same types of information. Thanks, UCO2009bluejay (talk) 05:16, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I have noticed User:Corkythehornetfan, User:72.177.1.128, and User:‎Msjraz64, have been involved editing these tables recently and I think this is the forum to settle this so that we can reach Consensus, specifically on the university rankings.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 05:25, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't think the "Rankings" section should be in there because that is dealing with the academic portion of a school. If it was talking about the academics of the athletes, then I would probably support it, but it isn't. I think that all conferences should have the same table layout... maybe someone could create one where you just have to fill in the blanks with the correct information? Or is that possible?  Corkythehornetfan  Talk 16:15, 6 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Here the headers of the Big 6 conferences membership tables. Getting these in harmony would set the stage for the other conferences. Note, I have removed citations and superscript text from the header text shown below. UW Dawgs (talk) 17:54, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

After seeing the above I definitely would be for some sort of consensus on standardization. —  dain  omite   18:23, 6 June 2014 (UTC)


 * So how should these tables be set up: in my opinion I like the SEC or the the Big 12 setup, although for lower divisions I believe that national titles could be a problem with many of these teams having national championships in the NAIA or other divisions. I think varsity sports should definitely be included, as well as population for the locations for all conferences. Note: the SEC splits up their teams by division so that would remove an ACC and Big Ten column, and I think the number of conference championships in the B1G table could be in a separate table on its own. To Corky's point I also have my reservations on the national ranking but, some conferences are a little more than an athletic organization. I know some of them also have an Academic Consortium. These points are just my opinion though.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Jrcla2 posted on the basketball project that he thinks the ACC and SEC tables are good models.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I looked up a few football pregame game notes at all levels and in the quick fact box about the opponent all listed the school, location, founded, enrollment, nickname, colors, and joined conference. Other facts were listed which varied but nowhere did I see population, endowment, type, or U.S. news ranking. When I am looking at an athletic conference page, I am looking for information about sports. When someone is looking for information about a school's academics, they will look on the school's page not the conference they belong to; with the same situation about a town's population. If you want to compare rankings and endowment, create a "list of" page. I believe the members table should be compact and be just the school, location, founded, enrollment, nickname, colors, and joined, if the table starts getting crowded with too much information it becomes cumbersome. Personally, I don't even look at the tables that are so big that they can't fit on my screen and also are dominated by wasted white space. The IP user currently adding the U.S. news rankings is technically using the wrong terminology. The schools listed as "not ranked" do have a ranking, it's just not published. I have much much more to say about this topic and will gladly share if permitted. Thank you. Msjraz64 (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Msjraz64 I don't see why you shouldn't say what your full opinion, after all that is the point of this discussion, and because of the differences you and others have had with that IP is why I thought it was important to try and sort this out and is why I believe it is important that you chime in.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 05:23, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I do not think population should be included. Is it city population, metropolitan/micropolitan area population, designated media market population, county/parish population, or what? It seems like so many different population standards are being used in the tables. I don't think a specific population is a defining characteristic for institutions because the universities are not defined by borders. Location yes, population no. -AllisonFoley (talk) 05:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I also do not think endowment should be included. The biggest reason is that it's not comparing apples to apples. Many schools have systemwide endowments that are being claimed for one institution within the system, which is inaccurate and misleading for this purpose. Many other schools, especially outside of the Power 5 conferences, do not have an endowment listed in the NACUBO survey. Lastly, what does endowment have to do with an athletic conference? If any financial figures should be included in these tables, it should be the athletic budgets, but the problem with that is that the private schools are not listed in the USA Today database. -AllisonFoley (talk) 05:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I also do not think national titles should be included in the table. First, there is significant controversy regarding major college football national titles since the NCAA does not sponsor it. As mentioned above, most NCAA Division I teams have moved up from the NAIA, Division II/small college, and/or I-AA/FCS, which would suggest that those national titles are not equal to NCAA DI national titles. In addition, the NCAA did not sponsor women's championships until the 1980s. Before that, women's titles were awarded by the AIAW, and there was some overlap as well. If any titles are included in the table, I think it should be conference titles from that conference. However, with so much realignment, that may be a misleading figure since the various schools joined in different time periods, and it doesn't account for their history in other conferences. -AllisonFoley (talk) 06:39, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
 * User:AllisonFoley, your're talking about national titles but the same can be said for conference titles. I see in the football section of C-USA that Tulsa has 35 conference titles and Western Kentucky has eleven. How can Tulsa have that many titles in a conference that is only nineteen years old, and WKU has titles in a conference they have yet to be a member of? Msjraz64 (talk) 23:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Conference Membership Table Proposal
Here's my proposal, left-to-right:

Explicitly removed or consolidated:
 * Mascot or symbol
 * US News Ranking
 * Undergraduate Enrollment, Postgraduate Enrollment -> Enrollment
 * NCAA Championships, National Titles, NCAA Team Championships
 * Big Ten Championships

Naming standardization:
 * Location (Pop.)
 * Enrollment (all types, undergrad + postgrad)

Callouts/Questions:
 * This addresses the screen width issues with some cuts.
 * ACC is showing System Affiliation within "Type" which seems to be very low value-add, or obvious.
 * Endowment is being reported as system-wide, when not available for the particular school. I don't see a problem there.
 * Seems like team and individual, league, division, national/NCAA and non-sanctioned (crew) championships have enough complexity for their own table.
 * The Varsity Team count can be in Conf context or Total (including independent, in another conf, etc). So how to designate when they aren't the same?  ala "18/20"
 * Division to be used when it has multi-sport context (ie, in Pac-12, it is only a football scheduling convention and is covered in the football section).
 * Sortable columns seem preferable. The Southeastern Conference shows a grouping/coloring issue, which can be addressed as seen in Atlantic Coast Conference. If the "majority" of game scheduling is at the Division level, it argues for the SEC-style grouping.
 * I'd support this table, however, I would get rid of the population in the location column.  Corkythehornetfan  Talk 02:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Drop the colors and the pop, Then I would support this table format.-- Dcheagle   &bull; talk &bull; contribs 04:33, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I like that proposal as is, it looks orderly. I believe that colors are necessary. I like the pop but it wouldn't break my heart to see it go.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 05:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose inclusion of endowment and population. There is a major problem with claiming systemwide endowments for individual institutions. For example, the University of Texas System's endowment in the NACUBO study combines endowment data for 15 different institutions. Why should UT Austin get to claim endowments from UTEP, UTSA, Texas-Arlington, Texas-Pan American, etc. when those schools are members of different conferences? Systemwide endowment is not the same as university endowment. It's inaccurate and misleading to include systemwide endowment into these tables. In addition to NACUBO reporting systemwide endowment, many NCAA institutions are not included in the study. As stated before, endowments are irrelevant to athletic conferences. If any financial figures should be included, it's the athletic budgets, not the endowment. There is also no reason to include population under the location. The location is sufficient on its own. The only relevant population is the enrollment. -AllisonFoley (talk) 06:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * AllisonFoley is absolutely on point above.  I also oppose inclusion of endowment and population per her arguments above. Jweiss11 (talk) 13:18, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

What does the inclusion of school colors to the tables really bring to an article about a sports conference, are these colors related to the conference in a way that is more then just being the colors of the schools that are members? Cause if their not related to the conference in any form other then being the colors of member schools then I see no reason for them being there. Thoughts?-- Dcheagle   &bull; talk &bull; contribs 23:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * With all do respect I always thought this table was introducing the schools within the conferences, and that would definitely include colors. That is what you see on TV when an OU, Auburn, or Louisiana Tech game is televised. Eliminating that and using your logic that colors aren't necessary to fit an institution's or conference's profile, then should we eliminate enrollment figures? Does it really fit FSU's athletic profile to mention their 39,000 students compared to Wake Forest's 8000? What does that have to do with athletics or the ACC? Should we include what type of institution they are? What difference does it make when the school was founded? A school's colors have much more to do with athletics and what is seen on the field than certain other information on the table. I believe that colors fit the purposes of an "athletic institution table" than certain other information. I think that all the other information I brought up should be included. I see the earlier point about system wide endowment and believe that is a valid point. I hope this didn't come off in the wrong way, but using that logic I think eventually the table would only include. Institution, Location, Number of Sports, and Division.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 14:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * User:UCO2009bluejay, that phrase says it all; introducing the schools within the conferences. The members table is equivalent to the lead paragraph of all wiki pages with some basic quick facts about the composition of the conference. Msjraz64 (talk) 23:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Why don't you just get rid of all the info? Why is it more important to list when a school joined a conference...rather than how the school is ranked academically? I just don't get why y'all want to hide information. The population numbers don't mess anything up. These are basic facts to give people an idea of how these schools measure up against each other...and their conference mates. NOW, I have to go to three or four different pages to get the same info that was contained here....on one page. Thanks for making it harder to look at these schools and conferences at a glance. Oh, and all the hours I spent adding some of this info. Just for some person behind a desk to disagree because of how it looks physically. Give me a break. I won't be coming here any longer to do my research. I have had enough of y'all changing things and taking information away from the reader. Thanks for screwing things up! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.41.6.154 (talk) 13:44, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposal 2 based upon discussion
Based upon discussion, is this a more updated and suitable table? (Colors discussion pending).


 * Note I have taken out the Military Heritage on Clemson and the Methodist affiliation on Duke. Other than the colors I think this is the table that is being constructed (except for the colors discussion).UCO2009bluejay (talk) 15:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I think school/team colors are pretty core to a member's identity and useful, top-level data points that warrant inclusion in these tables. On the technical side, we should make use of Template:CollegePrimaryHex and Template:CollegeSecondaryHex to standardize the coding of the colors and make sure they sync with other instances on other articles and navboxes. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose - The two deltas are the removal of Population and Endowment. Population is present in 5 of 6 of the Big 6 conferences.  It contrasts the universities' presence in a metroplex, city, vs small town.  Additionally, it is widely implemented in the extended, longtail of conferences precisely because it provides relevant context.  Same answer with Endowment -it is widely implemented the existing conference pages, and the Template:Infobox university, because it provides context about the university and this section is obviously a summary of the university including athletics.
 * To the expected complaint of reporting of system-wide numbers within Endowment, there are three obvious options: 1) leave as-is (which notes that the value is system-wide), 2) note as "N/A" (or equivalent) as the info isn't publicly available, 3) remove entirely. The narrow argument that since this data isn't available for a small minority of schools, doesn't support the position that it should be removed entirely for the common case. UW Dawgs (talk) 16:21, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I will refer to my previous comment and add other thoughts regarding some categories. Population has no relevance. The local population does not equate to the fan base of any school. Why add population for college conferences when it is not done for pro leagues? A column for varsity teams and championships is only duplicating information. All conferences have a section that covers all the various titles and the "sponsored sports by school" tables detail the number of varsity sports a school has. For NCAA D-I, I would encourage a "conference academics" section that would include a table showing AAU status, type (affiliation), endowment, U.S. news rankings, and other related academic categories. This area would be of high importance for the conferences that have academic requirements to become a member. Anything dealing with academics for NCAA D-II, NCAA D-III, and NAIA would have no relevance since these conferences are formed based on geography and budgets with very little to no consideration given to academic standards. There is also no need for a "division" column. The style used for the Southeastern Conference should be used if a conference uses divisions for multiple sports including football, otherwise the regular members table is sufficient. The conferences that have divisions in football only already have a table in the football section showing the division split. Colors may not seem important enough to include but how many times have you gone to the stadium or arena, even in high school, and see the banners of all the schools in the conference. Maybe thought of as an extension of the conference's visual identity.

Proposal 3
Comment - Breaking this proposal into it's own section, as it was lost in the comments of the above section. UW Dawgs (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You can see my proposals for
 * all ten NCAA FBS conferences here, which are updated to show changes effective July 1, 2014,
 * and all of NCAA D-II here, again updated to show changes effective July 1, 2014. — Msjraz64 (talk) 23:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd go for that. It looks cleaner!  Corkythehornetfan  Talk 21:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment I really think we need to be certain of which format will be utilized. I know there are differences of opinion and only one person has commented since the most recent proposal. Some of these templates will need to be updated July 1, and an editor is already adding teams to conferences that aren't members of it yet. E.g. adding Louisville to the ACC even though they are still a representing the American in the CWS, adding Appalachian State, Georgia Southern to the Sun Belt etc.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Support - I also really like what Msjrz64 has done. When you look at any prospectus, media guide, or game notes, the information you will find about each school includes location, founded, nickname, colors, and enrollment. Simply add in the year the school joined because that is very important, and we are good to go. The only minor change I would suggest is making the school names bold and slightly shading the first column to make it look like the top row. I don't find the total number of sports sponsored pertinent for the membership table. All of that info is detailed sport by sport further in each article. Often times schools sponsor sports that the conference does not sponsor. -AllisonFoley (talk) 06:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - This removes relevant content and associated citations which are seen in many (but not all) conference articles. UW Dawgs (talk) 16:15, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Oppose- Each conference is different, so I find myself in agreement the with reasons given by User:UW Dawgs... ALSO am opposed to User:Msjraz64 making the changes as outlined in his proposal without a consensus being reached... GWFrog (talk) 23:42, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment - UWDawgs used this rationale "re-add Endowment, per existing consensus implementation" to add endowment to the C-USA page. Do you have a link to the discussion that lead to this existing consensus? I haven't seen this discussion about C-USA. I'm not opposed to having all of this extra information on the conference page, but I don't think it belongs in the basic membership table. The way it is now, there is too much information in the table that it is squeezed with text wrapping. Like someone mentioned above, I think adding an academic measures table further down in the article would be an agreeable compromise/solution. I don't find endowment especially relevant to an athletic conference membership table. I still don't understand why some insist on endowment being in the membership table when athletic budget is a much more pertinent financial figure for an athletic conference article. As I stated above, the endowment numbers being used now are not accurate. Sources being used include US News and NACUBO which report different figures for supposedly the same endowments. NACUBO uses systemwide endowment for many schools, and many other schools aren't listed at all. The current endowment figures are not apples to apples comparisons. Also regarding the C-USA article, the population figures being used are misleading. It has the same population for Miami as Boca Raton. Cities are listed in the table, but it appears that metro/micropolitan area populations were added to the table. I'm not sure how it's done on other articles, but I don't trust any of them because of the way it's been added to the C-USA article. It's true that every conference is different like GWFrog said, but I think there is basic information like Msjraz64 proposed that is inherent to every school and conference that should be included in a standardized membership table. I think the extra information that we can't reach consensus on can be included in another section of the conference article. -AllisonFoley (talk) 03:25, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Support If the varsity sports are included on their own table as all DI, and most if not all D-II (and provided the lower division tables are made) then I have no objection to this proposal. I would like to see type, but I don't have enough of an objection to it being left out to oppose this proposal. After the "institution wide" argument, it seems that all but one editor is opposed to endowment at this point. I think that this proposal best fits what we need the table for. My only reservation is that the division outlines seem a bit odd if you click the sort arrows. There are arguments in this discussion (so I won't need to link these) that the lower divisions should follow the major conference tables, and the point is that ALL conferences need standardization, and not a special case for CUSA or any other conference. When do we know when consensus is reached so we can move forward with standardization and move on?UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:56, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Oppose In that each conference is different, each conference's membership is different, and each should have its own membership format. I can see the reasons for the elimination of both academic ratings and endowments, but I also see the need for the inclusion of items such as conference titles (as long as it is only for the conference in question)... Fredref123 (talk) 11:45, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Oppose While I believe that there should be a standardization of the membership table, the tables created by Msjraz64 removed necessary information in my opinion. I would like to thank Msjraz64 for their work though. I agree with previous responses in this discussion that the membership tables serve almost as a de facto media guide for the conference's respective member institutions. As such, the tables should include enough encyclopedic information about the members to suit curious minds.  NEMESIS63  | talk  |  20:15, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposal 4
No divisions: Divisions: Above is my proposal for a standardization of the template, which is currently in use in the American Athletic Conference article. It provides enough at-a-glance information about the member university's but also doesn't overload the page or reader, or provide nonencyclopedic information. Academic information such as endowment and rankings should be provided in an "Academics" section, which numerous conferences already have. In addition, another column could be added on the right for sortable divisions (east, west, atlantic, coastal, etc.).  NEMESIS63  | talk  |  20:15, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment - The above format was NOT in use on the AAC prior to the recent edits of the last 2 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=American_Athletic_Conference&oldid=614972281 UW Dawgs (talk) 20:49, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment Correct. What is seen on The American page currently is updated based on both the membership changes effective 7/1 and some of the changes by Msjraz64. The two major differences are the consolidation of enrollment and the removal of mascots. This was the last edit before the changes by Msjraz64, which can be seen here for comparison.  NEMESIS63  |  talk  |  21:08, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - I think population figures are irrelevant based on the discussion in the previous proposals. While I'm not opposed to Type (most of which are obvious), I think that adding the systems to the Type column is totally irrelevant and unnecessary. Systems aren't in conferences. Individual institutions are. The membership section should be only about individual institutions, not the population of their city or anything about their system. This goes back to individual institutions claiming the endowment for their entire system. I still believe proposal 3 is the best. If particular info isn't important enough to be included in the quick facts in team or conference media guides and game notes, then it's really not notable enough to include in a membership table. Any of the extraneous information can be added to another section in the article if some are determined to keep that info in the articles. -AllisonFoley (talk) 19:20, 6 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Hey, y'all, I just unarchived this discussion that was just auto-archived. I think we need to finish this discuss.  Can we do so?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

VIRUS WARNING! College Football Data Warehouse
I tried going to the College Football Data Warehouse site just now, and my anti-virus software blocked access with this message: "The requested URL cannot be provided. The requested object at the URL: http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/ Detected: object is infected by HEUR:Trojan.Script.Generic." If anyone has had a similar experience or knows what this means, please share. This is a site frequently used by members of this project, and folks should be aware of this potential issue. Cbl62 (talk) 16:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like the site's been hacked. I'm not sure what else to make of it though!  JohnInDC (talk) 16:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably best to avoid it for the time being. That's unfortunate. Cbl62 (talk) 16:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I tried to google search it a couple of days ago and it didn't appear. I had to go through Wikipedia links to get to it. I don't know if this is related to this.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 17:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I emailed David DeLassus, who runs the College Football Data Warehouse. He's aware of the problem with the site and is working on having it cleaned up. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:33, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Coaching records & indicia for the BCS/playoffs
The current version of the Template:CFB Yearly Record End/footnotes contains a mark (†) denoting an appearance in a BCS, Bowl Alliance, or Bowl Coalition game. I've never understood exactly why this was necessary, but also never previously seen a need to do away with it. But now that the BCS is done and the College Football Playoff ("CFP") is here – and apparently will be through at least 2025 – this footnote should be updated.

I'm posing a question here before I do anything, since it could affect many coaches' pages. Should we ADD the CFP to the list of bowls that are marked by the "†"? Should we have a new and different mark for CFP, and KEEP the "†" for historic appearances in the BCS, etc.? Or should we DELETE all designations for BCS bowls and just mark appearances in the CFP with a "†" going forward? I think the last is the best option, but welcome all thoughts. Thanks. --Kgwo1972 (talk) 17:21, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * While we're on the topic, can we discuss a similar option for FCS, Div II, Div III, and NAIA playoffs?--Paul McDonald (talk) 10:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Paul, not sure what you mean by "similar option" for the lower divisions. Is there any ambiguity there worthy of special notation?  Teams either played in the national championship tourney or they didn't. Jweiss11 (talk) 12:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, sometimes the other divisions have bowl games (such as the Victory Bowl) and sometimes they have playoffs. Look at Mike Gardner.  In 2013, his team won their first-round matchup in the playoffs and lost in the quarterfinals.  But all we can display is "L NAIA Quarterfinal" which looks like the record was 0-1 in post-season that year, but it's really 1-1.  Other things to consider are national championship games for the other divisions that clearly are not "BCS" or whatever they call it now, but are still national championship games.  Maybe some kind on indicator for each division?  Just thinking.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:50, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Appalachian State starting QBs
i've just created a Template:Appalachian State Mountaineers quarterback navbox but can't find a website that lists every QB who has started for App State, hence why there are many gaps in time in this template. Could anyone help me find such a source? Arbor to SJ (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Doesn't such a template presume that every App. St. quarterback is notable? I know we have permitted such templates for FBS teams.  Is there precedent for this at the FCS level? Is it desirable? I would probably be inclined to draw the line at FBS. Cbl62 (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Not taking a side here, but Appalachian State is now an FBS team. Jhn31 (talk) 22:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Didn't realize they had graduated. Still, it's worth having a discussion about the quarterback templates. Cbl62 (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Personally, Cbl, I think it was a huge mistake to sanction CFB starting QB navboxes in the first place. Here are three typical QB navboxes for Division I FBS teams:
 * 1. Template:Florida Gators quarterback navbox - 25 of 50 (50%) red links, i.e., not notable enough to have Wikipedia articles;
 * 2. Template:Virginia Tech Hokies quarterback navbox - 30 of 43 (70%) red links, i.e., not notable enough to have Wikipedia articles;
 * 3. Template:Wisconsin Badgers quarterback navbox - 25 of 43 (58%) red links, i.e., not notable enough to have Wikipedia articles;
 * 4. Template:Stanford Cardinal quarterback navbox - 16 of 49 (33%) red links, i.e., not notable enough to have Wikipedia articles; and
 * 5. Template:Texas Tech Red Raiders quarterback navbox - 9 of 24 (38%) red links, i.e., not notable enough to have Wikipedia articles.

And it's not like most of these QB navboxes are missing a handful, or some relatively reasonable percentage of 10-15%. Nope, they're missing anywhere from 30 to 70% -- and mind you, I intentionally selected teams that were not perennial cellar dwellers. Moreover, many of the Division I FBS QB navboxes are selectively omitting/including examples from their history to avoid listing the entire succession of starting QBs, which would increase the percentage of red links. We have created 100+ messes in order to justify keeping a handful of the QB navboxes for which the succession is actually complete. Why should we be surprised when some fan of Appalachian State does the same thing? The simple solution is to start converting these navboxes to "list of" articles. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:32, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm ok with draining bathwater where appropriate, but not the baby. Cbl62 (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * In 2000 years these navboxes will fill the whole page lol. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 22:36, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * So, you're okay with navboxes where half or more of the listed names are permanent red links? I can only imagine what our old friends at TfD would think of that.  Why not start converting these navboxes to lists?  And WikiOriginal is right: college QB successions are messier than most of us remember, and for every Dan Marino who started 20+ consecutive games, there are five or six Joe Sixpacks who started in one to five games, and are utterly non-notable.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, I didn't choose a side but could you imagine how big Wikipedia would be if it stays around forever. The billionth article lol WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 22:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * WO, clearly many of our current navboxes that are based on annual succession will become impractically large at some point. Some of these QB navboxes are already on the edge, and should subdivided by eras.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The same would have to be done with NFL as well. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 23:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, interesting points. As WP:NCOLLATH points out, not everyone who's played college sports is notable. Navboxes should be limited to notable people/concepts. So could navboxes be limited to "notable" starting QBs? Are lists of starting quarterbacks acceptable? Arbor to SJ (talk) 22:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * As noted at Template talk:Michigan Wolverines quarterback navbox, the Michigan navbox is limited to QBs with at least 6 starts. Cbl62 (talk) 23:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Which means that the list is selective and incomplete, Cbl, and you are not presenting the complete succession of Wolverines starting QBs, which has been an issue raised at TfD in the past. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you really believe that a backup who started one or two games should be included in a template of a team's historic starting quarterbacks? Really?? Seriously??? Are you actually saying that with a straight face???? Cbl62 (talk) 23:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am saying exactly that, because that's what the word "starting" means. Moreover, the starting succession is rarely that clean and crisp.  A designated first-string starter may get injured, a designated starter may have a falling out with the coach, a designated starter may be replaced by a more talented underclassman, a designated may just perform poorly towards the end of a season and the coach wants to give the up-and-comer game time.  Omitting actual starters from a starting QB is imposing an unstated rule of selection.  Why six games?  Why not four games?  Why not six consecutive vs. six total games?  Where is this selection rule stated on the navbox?  Do you not see a probem with this?  It's a bit It's exactly like saying "We Wikipedia editors have decided these starting QBs don't count."  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * What I see as a problem is including redlinks to a "college" football players who have started 1 or 2 games and are therefore almost certainly not notable. Why six? Because it seemed reasonable to assume that QBs with fewer than six starts would probably not pass WP:GNG. There's no precise science to "six," and I'm open to other ideas, but redlinks to one or two-game college players are a bad idea. Cbl62 (talk) 23:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * My larger point, Cbl, is that these QB successions work far better as "list of" articles, without having to sacrifice accuracy and/or completeness, than they do as navboxes. Might be a good example of where you put "List of Michigan Wolverines starting quarterbacks" in the "see also" section of every Michigan QB article, rather than having an inaccurate/incomplete navbox at the bottom of every page.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Some of these templates have names no linked. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 23:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Please clarify, WO-9: do you mean you have reviewed several that have ZERO names linked? If so, please identify those navboxes.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I just meant that there are some with no red links - only blue and unlinked names. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 20:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Arbor, here are the two basic Wiki-rules/guidelines in play: (1) navboxes are for navigating among existing articles, and should not include a large number or large percentage of permanent red links -- articles that will never be written for non-notable subjects; and (2) the class of starting quarterbacks of a given Division I team, as a group, are almost certainly notable per WP:NLIST, even if they are not individually notable per WP:NCOLLATH, WP:NGRIDIRON or WP:GNG. Which means, in short, a "list of staring quarterbacks for [Insert Division I FBS team here]" will almost certainly survive, even if a relatively high percentage of the individual listed are not individually notable.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * To my mind, a list is an inferior tool for navigating among a related group. The analysis is the same for head coaches. Relying on a "see also" link to a list of coaches or quarterbacks would require multiple page jumps and is unwieldy.  A navbox allows immediate access to all entries within the related group.  Of the navigational options I'm aware of, a navbox is the best, succession box a distant second, and lists an even more distant third.  (In the case of head coaches, we use both lists and navboxes.  This makes sense as they serve different purposes.)  That said, I do understand Dirtlawyer's point that navboxes with a high percentage of redlinks could be vulnerable to attack. They really ought not be created unless there's a good faith and reasonable belief that the vast majority of entries are notable enough to support a stand-alone article.  For some programs (e.g., Notre Dame, USC, Alabama, Texas, LSU, etc.), such a belief is reasonable.  For other programs (e.g., Appalachian State, University of Akron, etc.), probably not. That may seem unfair to fans of smaller programs, but it's the foundation of how WP:GNG operates (i.e., quarterbacks for the Crimson Tide are more likely to receive significan media coverage than quarterbacks for the Akron Zips).  Cbl62 (talk) 18:43, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

College football All-America campaign Part II (1970 - present)
Since the first part of the campaign worked so well ( almost now complete), I figured we may as well lay out the remaining consensus All-Americans. This Part II campaign has 63 red-linked consensus All-Americans from 1970 through 2007 who weren't originally part of the first campaign, including the ones that WikiOriginal-9 started in the past couple days. Again, feel free to help out, grab as many as you like, and strike them when you're done. If we fill out this list, we will have an article for every consensus All-American college football player! Cbl62 (talk) 00:05, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Ernie Jennings - 1970 receiver (Air Force) ; Larry DiNardo - 1970 OG (Notre Dame) ; Don Popplewell - 1970 center (Colorado) ; Dick Bumpas - 1970 DT (Arkansas) ; Rock Perdoni - 1970 DT (Georgia Tech) ; Mike Anderson - 1970 LB (LSU) ; Bobby Majors - 1971 DB (Tennessee) ; Greg Marx - 1972 DE (Notre Dame) ; Ron Rusnak - 1972 OG (No. Carolina) ; Robert Popelka - 1972 DB (SMU) ; Bill Yoest - 1973 OG (NC State) ; Bill Wyman - 1973 center (Texas) ; Mike Townsend - 1973 DB (Notre Dame) ; Tony Cristiani - 1973 DL (Miami) ; Kermit Johnson - 1973 RB (UCLA) ; Booker Brown - 1973 tackle/guard (USC) ; Peter Demmerle - 1974 WR (Notre Dame) ; Marvin Crenshaw - 1974 OT (Nebraska) ; John Roush - 1974 OG (Oklahoma) ; John Provost - 1974 DB (Holy Cross) ; Larry Seivers - 1975 & 1976 receiver (Tennessee) ; Randy Johnson - 1975 OG (Georgia) ; Ted Smith - 1975 OG (Ohio State) ; Mike Vaughan - 1976 OT (Oklahoma) ; Joel Parrish - 1976 OG (Georgia) ; Al Romano - 1976 DL (Pitt) ; Bill Armstrong - 1976 DB (Wake Forest) ; Dave Butterfield - 1976 DB (Nebraska) ; Dan Irons - 1977 OT (Texas Tech) ; Tom Brzoza 1977 center (Pitt) ; Bob Jury - 1977 DB (Pitt) ; Greg Kolenda - 1979 OT (Arkansas); Ken Fritz - 1979 OG (Ohio State) ; Jeff Leiding - 1983 LB (Texas) ; Bill Mayo - 1984 OG (Tennessee) ; Mark Traynowicz - 1984 center (Nebraska) ; Tony Thurman - 1984 DB (Boston College) ; Rod Brown - 1984 DB (Okla. St.) ; Ricky Anderson - 1984 punter (Vanderbilt) ; Willie Smith - 1985 tight end (Miami) ; Peter Anderson - 1985 center (Georgia) ; Anthony Phillips - 1988 OG (Oklahoma) ; Jake Young - 1988 & 1989 center (Nebraska) ; Keith English - 1988 punter (Colorado) ; Bob Kula - 1989 OT (Michigan St.) ; Eric Still - 1989 OT (Tennessee) ; Chris Smith - 1990 tight end (BYU) ; Stacy Long - 1990 OT (Clemson) ; Maurice Crum, Sr. - 1990 LB (Miami) ; Carlton McDonald - 1992 DB (Air Force) ; Bjorn Merten - 1993 PK (UCLA) ; Terry Daniel - 1993 punter (Auburn) ; Ed Stewart - 1994 LB (Nebraska) ; Brian Robinson - 1994 DB (Auburn) ; Brian Lee - 1997 DB (Wyoming) ; Chad Kessler - 1997 punter (LSU) ; Rufus French - 1998 tight end (Mississippi) ; Joe Kristosik - 1998 punter (UNLV) ; Jason Whitaker - 1999 OG (Fla. St.) ; Rob Riti - 1999 center (Missouri) ; Andrew Bayes - 1999 punter (E. Carolina) ; J. T. Thatcher - 2000 DB (Oklahoma) ; John Sullivan - 2007 kicker (New Mexico) . Cbl62 (talk) 00:05, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting fact here - Jake Young was killed in the 2002 Bali bombings. User:WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 01:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * 38 28  19 10 left. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 23:45, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Great work, WO-9! Cbl62 (talk) 23:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * 2 left and both have been claimed. Good work.  09er (talk) 18:44, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Who's doing the last two. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 21:42, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Articles needing work

 * Larry Seivers - birth date/place User:WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 01:39, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Cbl62 (talk) 17:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Rock Perdoni, fullest name available is "Renso G. Perdoni." Born c. 1948, somewhere in Italy, immigrated to the United States at the age of 6, apparently still alive.  Has lived in Massachusetts, Virginia and Georgia.  Needs DOB, POB, and anything else you can provide from ancestry.com, etc.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * There's a listing for a Renso Perdoni, born 10 Dec 1947, living in Natick, MA, in 1991. Only match I found. Cbl62 (talk) 17:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like a pretty darn close match to me. Any other information available?  What's the source -- is this U.S. Census data?  Also, I omitted the fact that he also lived in Canada (played in CFL for three years).  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Census data is only available through 1940. The information above comes from a generic public records database; it could be a phone book or something else. Didn't find anything further. Cbl62 (talk) 20:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I updated his page. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Bjorn Merten - birth date/place WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 20:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Terry Daniel - birth date/place (poor special teamers) WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 20:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Bill Mayo - birth date/place (don't think I'm not looking for this stuff lol) WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 22:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Mike Vaughan - bare stub, needs infobox BusterD (talk) 15:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 17:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Ken Fritz needs DOB and POB (maybe Ironton, Ohio)09er (talk) 15:40, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 16:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Ted Smith DOB and POB 09er (talk) 18:43, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Stacy Long needs place of birth and infobox. BusterD (talk) 23:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Dates on standings templates
This discussion floundered last year at the end of the season: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 13. Let's try to revive it at the beginning of the season to see if there's a consensus one way or the other. I will copy and paste last year's comments into a gray box here (please place new comments below the gray box):

OCNative (talk) 23:57, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

request
Hello. I have a question. Does the page Longest NCAA Division I football winning streaks include current streaks? If so North Dakota State Bison are currently on a 25 game win streak. Other FCS schools are on there can someone who knows how to edit please add them? Thx. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.135.176.108 (talk) 08:23, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Infobox NCAA Division I FBS season re-written
I rewrote Infobox NCAA Division I FBS season today, and it has a few major improvements:
 * Now built off Infobox; no more messing with tables. I took cues from Infobox sports season but maintained the structure from ours.
 * Split into sections (regular season, post season, national championship game)
 * Dedicated section for BCS/CFP championship games
 * Dedicated fields for #1 rankings on the AP and Coaches' Poll.

Now, here's where I require assistance. I personally think that referring to the BCS/CFP winner as the sole national championship is placing undue weight on the organizers of the BCS and College Football Playoff. As such, the infobox no longer refers to the BCS winner as a "champion", but as the winner of the designated championship game. Due to its importance and prominence, said game is still significant for the infobox, but to comply with neutral point of view, I added, as mentioned, the ability to list other post-season poll results as well. Now, in pre-BCS pages, the "champion" field is used to specify the AP winner. However, to make sure my changes were backwards compatible, I did not change that. On articles that list AP poll #1's under |champion=, could you help me and change those to |ap_poll= instead?

2008 NCAA Division I FBS football season serves as the showpiece for the full extent of the changes; you can use it as a guideline for how to tweak other season pages for this updated version.

Sincerely, ViperSnake151  Talk  22:38, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Next group project?
Part II of the Consensus All-American campaign is nearing completion. As a result, we will have articles on every consensus All-American in college football history. There are loads of additional areas where our coverage is in pretty sore shape. With college football season upon us and drawing eyes to this board, we could work on another group campaign to improve the project's core coverage. A topic that occurs to me is College Football Hall of Famers. Years ago, Patken created two or three-line stubs for all or almost all of the inductees. Many of them remain in really poor condition, consisting of just a couple lines of text and no citations. A sampling of those (from A- B G) are set forth below. If people would be willing to work on improving these, I could compile a fuller list. Other thoughts on group projects welcome as well. Cbl62 (talk) 05:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Joe Alexander (Syracuse), Bob Anderson (Army), Volney Ashford (Missouri Valley), Reds Bagnell (Penn), Bill Banker (Tulane), Vince Banonis (Detroit), Ron Beagle (Navy), Hub Bechtol (Texas Tech), Forrest Behm (Nebraska), Marty Below (Wisconsin) , Jeff Bentrim (North Dakota St.), Tony Blazine (Ill. Wesleyan) , Ed Bock (Iowa St.), Murry Bowden (Dartmouth), Charley Brewer (Harvard), George Brown (Navy/SD St.), Gordon Brown (Yale), Teel Bruner (Centre College), Bob Butler (Wisconsin), Dennis Byrd (NC St.), Brad Calip (East Central), Dave Campbell (Harvard) , Jack Cannon (Notre Dame), Rod Cason (Angelo State), Joe Cichy (North Dakota State), Gary Cochran (Princeton) , Dick Colman (Williams/Princeton), Bill Cooper (Muskingum), Brad Crawford (Franklin), Fred Crawford (Duke), Zygmont Czarobski (Notre Dame) , John Dalton (Navy), Ave Daniell (Pitt), Tom Deery (Widener), Steve DeLong (Tennessee), Kevin Dent (Jackson St.), Herb Deromedi (Central Michigan), John DeWitt (Princeton), Joe Donchess (Pitt), Jess Dow (S. Conn. St.), Nick Drahos (Cornell), Dick Duden (Navy), Ed Dyas (Auburn), Ray Eichenlaub (Notre Dame), Steve Eisenhauer (Navy), Mike Favor (N. Dakota St.), Bill Fincher (Ga. Tech.), Bill Fischer (Notre Dame), Buck Flowers (Ga. Tech), Rod Franz (Cal), Kenny Gamble (Colgate), Edgar Garbisch (Washington & Jefferson) , Forest Geyer (Oklahoma), Walter Gilbert (Auburn), Gene Goodreault (Boston College) , W. C. Gorden (Jackson St.), Charlie Green (Wittenberg), William Grinnell (Tufts), Ralph Guglielmi (Notre Dame), Lester Lautenschlaeger , and Alex Moffat (Princeton).
 * I quote Cbl62 (-College football All-America campaign (1889-1969)-"let's see if our project can turn all the red links to blue links by the time the 2014 college football season comes to an end" - August 16 ,2014). lol WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 17:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)<
 * Yeah, how's that for coming in ahead of schedule? Cbl62 (talk) 18:12, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Nice work, fellas. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm going to start working through these. There are some important figures in the history of the game here.  Feel free to adopt one or more for yourself. Cbl62 (talk) 16:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Pop Warner article title
Does anyone have a good reason why the Glenn Scobey Warner article should not be moved to Pop Warner per WP:COMMONNAME? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Per WP:NICKNAME: "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their 'real' name." While Warner is known most commonly today as "Pop", the historical usage is not as clearcut.  Warner did not become commonly known as "Pop" until approximately the early 1920s.  He had been coaching since the 1890s and won considerable fame as "Glenn Scobey Warner" while coaching with Iowa State, Georgia, Cornell, Carlisle, and Pitt.  He was in his 20s, 30s and 40s during his prime coaching years at those schools.  Here are some examples of how the coverage evolved in different periods:
 * Warner referred to himself, even in later years, as "Glenn Scobey Warner" or "Glenn S. Warner" in his writings and appearances. See, e.g., this book, this book, and this book by Warner. (Point in favor of current naming.)
 * Interestingly, a usage dating back to 1904 here relates to Glenn's brother W.J. Warner who appears to have been the first of the Warner brothers to be known as "Pop." (NOTE: This source may have been in error as to which brother was known as "Pop". According to this source, Glenn was known as "Pop" as early as 1894, having been given the nickname by teammates because he was older than them.)
 * During the 1890, 1900s, and 1910s, "Glenn" appears to be the common name applied to Warner. See here, here, here. Sometimes also as "Glenn Scobey Warner." (Point in favor of common usage.)
 * By the late 1910s, I find early references to "Pop", but "Glenn" still appears to be the more common name in the press. See, e.g., this one referring to him as "Glenn" in the headline, but referring to him as "Pop" at one point in the body.
 * The earliest usage I can find of "Pop" as the dominant name for Glenn Warner isn't until the early 1920s when he was in his early 50s. See here and here.  That was at a time when he had already been a coach for 28 years and had won 3 national championships at Pitt.  He would later go on to coach a national champions at Stanford.
 * This article from 1934 refers to him both ways and suggests he was known to the adults as "Glenn Scobey Warner" and as "Pop" to "all you football minded boys and girls." Warner developed youth football (Pop Warner Little Scholars) in the late 1920s and early 1930s.
 * From the 1930s forward, the press appears to have most commonly referred to him as "Pop." Even in retirement, however, press coverage was split with some sources still using "Glenn Scobey."  See here and here. (Point in favor of move.)
 * His AP and UP obits here and here both referred to him as "Pop" in the headline and as "Glenn Scobey (Pop) Warner" in the headline. (Point in favor of move.)
 * The College Football of Fame (one of the authoritative sources) refers to him in its member profile [ here] as "Pop", not "Glenn." (Point in favor of move.)
 * On balance, I'd probably tip in favor of moving the article. Cbl62 (talk) 16:58, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Bill Danenhauer?
On Template:Nebraska–Omaha Mavericks football coach navbox, the link for Bill Danenhauer redirects to Dave Sullivan (wrestler). Given that the UNO head coach's tenure was 1975–1977, there's no way Sullivan (b. 1963) would be that guy. Does anyone know if Bill Danenhauer is an erroneous redirect, or if it's the brother/son/whatever of the coach? The link needs to be disambiguated but I'm just not sure how they're related. Jrcla2 (talk) 14:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In the February 21, 1976, edition of the Lincoln Evening Journal, the results of the state wrestling tournament have both a Bill Danenhauer and a Dave Sullivan competing in the tournament. Not sure what that tells us, but it's an additional data point. — X96lee15 (talk) 15:12, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, that's an interesting coincidence, X96lee15. User:McPhail created the redirect page in question on July 27, 2013 (see diff), with notation "McPhail moved page Bill Danenhauer to Dave Sullivan (wrestler)," apparently as a result of a page move.  User:McPhail has been active in the past week.  A review of the edit history of the "Dave Sullivan (wrestler)" article reveals the state of the article before the page move (see diff).  Wrestler Dave Sullivan's real name/birth name is William "Bill" Danenhauer, born December 1, 1963.  What his connection is to a head football coach who was probably 30-40 years old in 1975 (at least 69-79 years old today) is a mystery.  Perhaps User:McPhail can shed some light.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:14, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a different Bill Danenhauer. He was born in 1934, graduated from Emporia State in 1955, and played in the AFL in 1960, for the Broncos and Patriots; see: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaneBi20.htm. I've disambiguated the Nebraska–Omaha template. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like this is a father-son combo. Danenhauer, Jr., aka Dave Sullivan of pro wrestling, was the head football coach of the now defunct Dana College; see: http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Bill-Danenhauer/135513963. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the sleuthing all. This was a trickier than usual disambig case. Jrcla2 (talk) 12:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello User:Dirtlawyer1 - I don't know much about the life of Bill Danenhauer prior to his wrestling career, but this interview has some info - it claims "Dannenhauer and his brother Bob ... both played football at UNO under Sandy Buda. After a few years in the USFL, Bill returned and helped coach the Mavericks for a few years". That suggests to me that he is the son of the coach. McPhail (talk) 14:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Peer review - possible GA/FA contender?
With football season in full swing, I wonder if there's any interest in getting the College Football Playoff article formally reviewed up to standards, perhaps to be an FA candidate sometime before the first playoff this winter (or at least GA status), given its importance as a topic in the football world. I've been smoothing and tweaking it for awhile now (hopefully not too CRYSTAL), and I think it's gotten to be in pretty decent shape, though it's still rated Start class. I was hoping somebody could give me some feedback.

One area that's important but unaddressed is the history and the old systems — a concise but adequate summary of the BCS-era drama and general teeth-gnashing over the years. User:Dcheagle has begun writing some of that history [User:Dcheagle/FixitboxXI on this draft page]. There are sections from Plus-One system and College football playoff debate that should probably be included, though those articles likely need a makeover. Images, too, are needed.

I've never made a run at GA/FA before, so I'm sort of unsure of the next steps for this. Thanks for any help! Woodshed (talk) 08:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Next round of proposed CFB "rivalry" articles for AfD review
I would like to proposed the following "rivalry" series for deletion at AfD:

Georgia-Vanderbilt
1. Georgia–Vanderbilt football rivalry - Not a traditional college rivalry, standard annual series between division foes;
 * Delete. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete p  b  p  01:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep Cake (talk) 09:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure about this one and Vandy/Kentucky. 74 and 86 meetings dating back to 1893 and 1892, respectively.  Aren't these among the oldest ongoing series in the SEC?  Even if not rivalries at present, it looks like they were more competitive series back in the 1890s to 1950s. Vanderbilt is one of the great programs in early football history.  If not Georgia and Kentucky, then who are Vanderbilt's rivals? Cbl62 (talk) 02:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Presently, Tennessee. Permanent SEC inter-division rival is Ole Miss Mississippi State since 1992, one of the better inter-division rivalries, too.  Historically, Sewanee.  My perceptions is that Vanderbilt and 'Bama have a fiercer rivalry than Vandy and Ole Miss -- matter of the pride of the once great vs. the now great, but I will let Patriarca12 speak to that.  Everyone else in the SEC views Vandy as their little brother.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Just want to make sure that important historic rivalries aren't inadvertently deleted. Focus shouldn't just be on the past 50 years. Vandy was "big brother" back in the day. I dropped a note with MisterCake, as he's Wikipedia's resident expert on Vanderbilt football history. Cbl62 (talk) 02:12, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Ole-Miss is arguably Vandy's biggest rival today, as we speak, with Tennessee as its biggest rival for all time. It seems misguided to say a rivalry must be competitive in terms of wins, as Vanderbilt-Tennessee shows (and Vandy-Sewanee, and Vandy-Ole Miss). Its nature was that Vandy practically always won, until Neyland and then the Vols practically always win. Though, because of this and Vanderbilt's recent cellar dwelling until Franklin, Ole Miss has had that competitiveness you certainly like to see in a rivalry. You would think Vandy and Bama would have a fierce rivalry given Wallace Wade, but it seems mostly short lived.
 * The Georgia rivalry was palpable in the times I cover, somewhere between a modern day UF-LSU in the 00's where they were just both very good teams that decade competing for the South (1920 & 1921 UGA and 1921 & 1922 Vandy, for example. They also both had fierce lines . Georgia had 4 All-Southerns on its line in '21 (Whelchel, Pew, Day, Reynolds), and Vandy had the number 1 defense in the nation in '22 and was about 10-deep on the line (Bomar, McCullough, Lawrence, Sharpe, Wakefield, Neely (end/LB on D), Bradford, Kelly, Morrow, Walker, Conyers, &c.), with Wallace Wade as line coach; and UF-Georgia, where there is something more approaching aversion to the other side for what must surely be various historical reasons, at least from the direction of Vandy to UGA. (cf. Ready for Athens Tilt; Rivalry Keeps Going &c.; UGA: The Junkyard Blawg Welcome to Georgia-Vandy 2.0, though the last one somewhat poo poos it, notice it references Georgia-Vandy as a known rivalry; ) It's still latent enough that Vanderbilt's victory over Georgia this year was much celebrated. Vandy is a rival with far more history with Georgia's than either of Clemson, South Carolina, or Tennessee. Georgia-Tennessee is more the kind of thing you speak of where it's just recent because of SEC alignment. Sewanee was just Vandy's first rivalry, not the only one now so long ago; for surely one can have more history than the team it played its second game ever against.
 * Though I can understand your point to bring up Kentucky and I could be jaded from what I research, I would even remove the Georgia rivalry before I removed it. It was a genuine rivalry (e.g., ) with Kentucky every year going on at length about perhaps finally scoring on the Commodores. Kentucky, at least in the years I've covered, were competitive on defense, hence the lamentation for the rest. There were people from Tennessee on Kentucky (John J. Tigert), and from Kentucky on Vanderbilt (Tuck Kelly, Bob Rives). No doubt their relationship is why they were first to seek Wallace Wade. The rivalry also went into basketball, though I know less about it there, just like Kentucky-Tennessee (e.g. UK Rivals Tournament: #2 Tennessee vs #7 Vanderbilt, Kentucky-Vandy Is National TV Game, Looking back at Vanderbilt-Kentucky clashes.) In recent times both teams have been in the cellar, and have thus been rivals on equal terms in a sense (just look at their winning percentages against other SEC schools compared to each other. cf. UK-Vandy lacks prestige, not personality, Mark Story: Why I relish UK-Vandy football). Kentucky and Vanderbilt also both have some of the oldest playing surfaces in the South (cf. Stoll Field, Dudley Field, Sulphur Dell (first Vandy football game was here)). I would also add, if not Vandy, then who are Kentucky's rivals? After Indiana and Tennessee surely comes Vandy. Is Louisville considered  more noteworthy just because it's intrastate and they made up a trophy recently? I feel pretty confident whoever first added them knew they were more than mere regular opponents. Both rivalries were around long before they were just division foes in the SEC, and with Georgia before any  conference for that matter. I share the sense that deleting these may not be an insane proposition, but seems high-hanging fruit at best.
 * I've waffled over ever making a Michigan-Vandy football rivalry article for those matches between McGugin and Yost for the reason that I'm not sure of the status of things such as these. Cbl is right to say within Southern football pre-SEC (1932), which is to say the SEC and ACC and others which have probably faded into obscurity by now (e.g. Centre Praying Colonels), Vandy was surely no small player. The only Southern player on the Football Writers Association of America 1869-1918 Early Era All-America Team was Vanderbilt tackle Josh Cody. Vanderbilt end Lynn Bomar is often considered the first, or "one of the first" (more accurate, the handful of southern guys on Camp's list always claim they were the first (e.g. Bum Day. I think Strupper was probably the true first. Before Bomar I'm pretty sure it's all Tech and Centre players, so he'd be the first from today's SEC, for what it's worth.). So, perhaps erroneous but it shows its rarity and celebrated nature), Southern player to make Walter Camp's first team, in 1923. The other end Hek Wakefield made Camp's second-team in 1924. Camp dies in 1925. That dominant stretch from 1921-23 saw the Commodores lose only to Michigan and Texas,(while it's fluid) both are usually considered the two most winningest programs in history. Cake (talk) 03:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Cake. As for Mich-Vandy, the close relationship between Yost and McGugin made the series special, but I don't think a nine-game series (with Mich. winning eight) would warrant a stand-alone rivalry article. Cbl62 (talk) 17:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Rather than an article about Michigan-Vanderbilt (as an alum of the former this matchup does not resonate with me), perhaps an article about the contests between Yost and McGugin - denominated as such - would make more sense. JohnInDC (talk) 16:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's quite fair that today it's no rivalry, and even then I'm sure Vandy viewed it as more of a rivalry than did Michigan, though part of that is because the series ended once Vanderbilt got a few breaks away from winning in 1922 and 1923. It died at its peak. All the contests were between McGugin and Yost, so it seems on its face an article about one would be an article about the other. An article on just the 1922 game could quite easily be done, but not sure on how those games important perhaps to Southern football are viewed elsewhere. Perhaps something about Yost's proteges on his page could address the whole series in some detail. Texas-Vandy is another rivalry I've restrained myself from making as there were few contests and long ago; it was Texas' annual matchup at the state fair for 7 years before the Red River Shootout started, and there were upsets on both sides.  Vandy was a hot ticket in those days; they had to turn down many top schools for sheer lack of time to play them all in 1923. Princeton was one, hence the postseason contest with them in '23 presumably. Baylor had annual contests at the fair too (maybe the football games there need an article some day), including the first Southwest school to play one from the East when it got beat by Boston College.Cake (talk) 16:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Once you've finished your analysis, could you please register a "Keep" or "Delete" vote for each of the two Vandy rivalry articles? As the resident expert on Vanderbilt, your final conclusions are important. Cbl62 (talk) 16:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Kentucky-Vanderbilt
2. Kentucky–Vanderbilt football rivalry - Not a traditional college rivalry, standard annual series between division foes;
 * Delete. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete p  b  p  01:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep See above Cake (talk) 02:25, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

LSU-Mississippi State
3. LSU–Mississippi State football rivalry - Not a traditional college rivalry, standard annual series between division foes;
 * Delete. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete p  b  p  01:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. This one seems like pretty high-hanging fruit for a first round.  This is described as LSU's longest rivalry, and they've played over 100 games dating back to 1896.  Sure, LSU has dominated the series lately, but it looks like it was competitive back in the day.  I agree that there's an undue proliferation of rivalry articles, but I would have started with a lot lower-hanging fruit than this.  Frankly, when two major programs (in adjoining states, as well) have reached the century mark by playing 100 games against each other, I'd probably support possibly even consider whether we should have a rule of presumptive notability.  That doesn't strike me as a "standard annual series."  I'll try to do some research and report back. Dirt -- If you have already done research that you can share, that would be appreciated.  Cbl62 (talk) 16:05, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "High-hanging fruit?" Well, Cbl, how many active, genuine, meaningful rivalries can one team have . . . (1) Alabama-LSU, (2) Arkansas-LSU, (3) Auburn-LSU, (4) Florida-LSU, (5) LSU-Ole Miss, (6) LSU-Texas A&M and (7) LSU-Mississippi State?  I would suggest that when a given team has more than three or four active "rivalries," then several of those "rivalries" probably are deserving of some critical review and analysis, and we will discover that one or more of these purported "rivalries" are not really traditional rivalries either to the student, alumni and fans or in the media.  When more than half of a team's annual opponents are "rivals," that raises an eyebrow, and I believe the relative media coverage of the different "rivalries" usually bears that out.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:30, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You may be taking too presentist or recentist of a viewpoint. At any one point in a team's history, I would tend to agree that a team probably doesn't have meaningful, notable rivalries with the majority of its opponents. Given the last 30 years of results, it's pretty clear that LSU-MSU is not competitive (LSU has dominated the series during that period).  But that doesn't mean it wasn't a significant rivalry historically.  Having played 107 games against each other, this series appears to rank in the top 20 among the Most played rivalries in NCAA Division I FBS history.  (Yes, a series with such a long history strikes me as "high hanging" fruit -- though even high hanging fruit is sometimes rotten.) I haven't reached a conclusion yet, as I haven't done the historical research.  If you have done so and could share it, that would save some effort. Cbl62 (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Recentist? Maybe, but I don't think this particular game series ever had a particular meaning for the LSU fans.  Having just perused the other LSU "rivalries," I would suggest Auburn-LSU is also a likely candidate for critical review.  I would also throw in Florida-LSU, which historically had the character of a strong game series rather than a traditional college rivalry -- but for the fact that it became Florida and LSU's permanent inter-division rivalry in 1992.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:07, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You may be right, but without someone actually checking the historical coverage for a series that is one of the oldest in the sport, I'm wary of deleting. Could you use your newspapers.com account to check on this one like you did for the Baylor rivalry game that was recently at AfD? I let my newspaperarchive.com subscription lapse, or I'd do it myself. Cbl62 (talk) 17:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI - The historical rivalry is difficult to research since Mississippi State has gone by different names over the years -- sometimes known as Mississippi Agricultural & Mechanical of Missisippi A&M and who knows what else. Cbl62 (talk) 17:30, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm familiar with the MSU name history because Florida had an extensive history with MSU prior to 1992. A Google key word search for "LSU-Mississippi State rivalry" yields eight results -- three Wikipedia articles, one Wikipedia mirror article, one newspaper article about the baseball rivalry between the schools, and three fan blogs.  A Google key word search for "LSU-Mississippi State football rivalry" produces 19 results, mostly Wikipedia mirror articles.  No one has ever written a book about this series.  The significant coverage about this series has not covered it as a rivalry.  That being said, before this goes to AfD, I would do my usual full-blown BEFORE searches.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Google searches really don't cut it when it comes to the pre-internet era. But my search of ("mississippi state" LSU rivalry football) generated 157,000 results. Cbl62 (talk) 17:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but they do give one some sense of what's out there. The art of any internet search is methodically running multiple variations on multiple-keyword searches, and for me, that takes a notepad and a fair amount of time.  If good results are there, I can usually tease them out.  BTW, your 157,000 Google results are not key-word restricted, and most of them are duplicates -- keep clicking on the numbered results pages at the bottom of the Google page until you come to the end and you will discover that you have a small fraction of 157,000 actual, non-duplicate results.  And because you have not key-word restricted your search, you will also find you have a lot of non-relevant noise among the non-duplicate results.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:05, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * So, I spent the $9.95 for a one-day subscription to the New Orleans Times-Picayune archives, and so far I'm not finding coverage that would suggest the LSU-Mississippi State/A&M was ever a particularly notable rivalry. Unless there's a search you'd like me to run, I've spent as much time as I care to on this one.  Unless additional sources are uncovered, I will leave this in the hands of folks more familiar with the SEC.  I did find a number of articles rating "MSU-LSU" as the top intercollegiate baseball rivalry -- comparing it to Duke-NC in basketball and Mich-Ohio St. in football. Cbl62 (talk) 18:44, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know as much about LSU since Vandy didn't play them in the times I mostly cover, but the Times-Picayune is a very good source for Mississippi A & M football; and of course you think it'd be for LSU, though Tulane was big in those days and maybe they overshadowed them. If it's not there I'd say the least that implies is it was seen as a rivalry more so by LSU than Miss until one checks the Baton Rouge papers. Cake (talk) 09:29, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Arkansas-Missouri
4. Arkansas–Missouri football rivalry - New inter-divisional SEC rivalry beginning in 2014, could be notable in 5 to 10 years;
 * Delete. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete p  b  p  01:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI There's a AFD up now on this article.-- Daytona   500  18:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, so much for running it by the other WP:CFB editors before nominating it for AfD. Here's the link to the now-pending AfD: Articles for deletion/Arkansas–Missouri football rivalry.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:47, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I thought your proposed procedure of posting/discussing here before sending to AfD was a good one. Not sure why someone decided to short-circuit the process rather than discuss here first. Cbl62 (talk) 18:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wasn't aware there was a discussion going on here when I put the AFD up.-- Daytona   500  18:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Illinois-Missouri
5. Illinois–Missouri football rivalry - Not a traditional rivalry for either team, or a historically significant series;
 * Delete. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Indiana-Kentucky
6. Indiana–Kentucky rivalry - This is a basketball rivalry, not a traditional football rivalry, and the football text should be purged.
 * Delete football elements; Keep basketball elements. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep I think it's a significant football rivalry too; there's been a trophy they fight over for at least a decade  p b  p  01:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep This was Kentucky's original big rivalry, it crosses both sports; they're just both a lot better to the point of legendary at basketball. It shouldn't be hard to find newspapers speaking of the football rivalry in heated terms many years ago. Here's one from not so long ago which at least mentions the sense of it: Cats Replace Purdue As Hoosier's Chief RivalryCake (talk) 09:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose AfD on procedural grounds. There was, as PBP noted, a traveling trophy.  It was a "bourbon barrel", and it was discontinued to due a drunk driving tragedy.  Based on this article, rating Kentucky and Indiana the worst football coaching jobs in their conferences, I might suggest a new trophy in the image of a coach with an axe hanging over his head. But seriously, an AfD is not the way to go if you agree there is a notable rivalry between Indiana and Kentucky, but believe that it is limited to basketball. In that case, you could propose a "Move" of the article to "Indiana–Kentucky basketball rivalry".  You could also propose editorial changes to the article (i.e., excising portions dealing with football).  In either case, AfD is in my opinion not the proper venue for that sort of a discussion.  Such editorial decisions are probably best addressed at the article's Talk page. Cbl62 (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Cbl, I agree that AfD is not the proper forum to determine the content of a given article. My intent in raising these discussions, here on the WP:CFB talk page, is to provide an initial representative sample of some of the problematic "rivalry" articles that exist; this particular article has piggybacked a non-notable football "rivalry" on a basketball series that is notable for having been a rivalry in the past, if not the present, and it represents a subclass of problematic articles that have done this.  There has been precious little standardization to the content and formatting of these articles, and very little scrutiny has been applied to the notability of the purported "rivalries."  Like Justice Stewart's comment about obscenity, most experienced CFB editors know a traditional CFB rivalry when we see it; the challenge is to better define the notability standards for this class of articles so article creators will focus on genuine, traditional CFB rivalries that are notable in the future, and not some of the marginal game series for which articles have been created in the past.  I think both a Requested Move discussion or the normal editing process are the proper processes, but I wanted to draw some attention to this particular kind of problem for future discussion and attention by WP:CFB participants.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:51, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose AfD for many of the foregoing reasons, but mainly because this is an editorial issue. There's not much harm in throwing in the football section into a larger (wholly proper) article so long as the subordinate section is not made up out of whole cloth.  JohnInDC (talk) 15:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep In cases where the football rivalry between two programs is not significant or notable enough to warrant a separate football rivalry article of it's own, I have no problem incorporating the football elements as a section or sub-section of an overall rivalry article about the overall rivalry between the two school athletic teams, which is what appears to have happened here. Ejgreen77 (talk) 03:45, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

All of these articles involve one or more SEC teams. WP:NRIVALRY states that no rivalry is inherently notable, and must satisfy the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG, with significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources. The gloss on that, which most long-time CFB editors have accepted, is that the series most be notable as a rivalry, not merely as a long-time series.

Please express your reaction to whether we should keep or delete each of the identified series above, with a brief statement of your reason, in next seven days (by September 1, 2014). Only those articles on which WP:CFB members agree by majority !vote will be submitted to AfD. More suggestions of other CFB "rivalry" articles will follow next week. We will also review several CFB single-game articles in the near future, too. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd say all six of these are worthy of an AfD nomination. Jweiss11 (talk) 12:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I commented above on Indiana - Kentucky. As for the others, I am content to rely on the views of editors who are closer to the teams and the series.  JohnInDC (talk) 15:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Mississippi State - Southern Miss
There isn't an article for it right now, but should it have one? This was a pretty intense rivalry in the 1970s and 1980s, but went dormant for about 20 years and was just restarted last night. Jhn31 (talk) 15:40, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Leaning No Unless they plan to meet on a regular basis and if this has been getting extensive coverage outside of the two campuses, then no.-- Daytona   500  17:05, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * A quick Google search reveals a small handful of items from their recent meeting (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). It would probably come down to the coverage of the series as a rivalry back in the 70's and 80's, which, given the time frame, would probably involve going back and searching through old newspaper archives from that time period. Ejgreen77 (talk) 12:33, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Miscellaneous information on conference pages
Maybe this isn't the optimal forum for this question, but I am wondering why conference pages include lists of which sports schools compete in other conferences. The fact that School 1 competes in Conference B in women's blernsball is completely irrelevant to an article about Conference A. The fact that many of those sports are non-NCAA sports makes it even more out of place. The proper place would be the article about the school or its athletic teams.  Grsz 11 00:42, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Individual CFB team statistical leaders, part 2

 * I have added an introduction and quite a few references to Mississippi State Bulldogs football statistical leaders. I believe this should address issues that might cause the article to be challenged. What does everyone else think? Is it sufficient? I can add similar paragraphs, tailored to each school, to the other articles if people like this one. Jhn31 (talk) 03:31, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't want to create too many of these until I get some feedback, but I've also added context to the Missouri article.Jhn31 (talk) 02:13, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Jhn31, thanks for your efforts here. One quick thing to fix is the capitalization in the sections and table headings of the articles you have created; see Alabama Crimson Tide football statistical leaders or Lists of Michigan Wolverines football statistical leaders for correct capitalization.  Also, we need to resolve the proper form for the titles of these articles: "List of X Y football statistical leaders", "Lists of X Y football statistical leaders", or just "X Y football statistical leaders". Jweiss11 (talk) 02:28, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Can you clarify what you mean by capitalization? I didn't notice any differences, but I can fix it pretty easily, I'd think.
 * Other things we could do for consistency would include deciding exactly what should go in the written introduction (if that should even be consistent). The introduction I wrote for the Mississippi State and Missouri articles are briefer and focus on information that is not repeated later on in the tables. This contrasts to the new Alabama article, which feels almost needlessly wordy to me? Or do people feel like that level of detail is necessary?
 * Secondly, do we want to have consistency in which stats are included? The Alabama and Michigan pages include Rushing Attempts and Completions, which I did not include in any of the articles I uploaded. Do people feel those are necessary to include (I didn't really, but I will follow the consensus). Similarly, what about adding Total Offense (Rushing + Passing) or From Scrimmage (Rushing + Receiving)? I was considering adding those at least to the Mississippi State page, because a lot of MSU quarterbacks have also run for a lot of yards, and the Total Offense is a better indicator of the most meaningful offensive players over the years. Similarly, adding the From Scrimmage list better displays the effect of a running back like LaDarius Perkins, who also caught a lot of passes over his career.
 * Finally, do we want to have consistency in how the tables are created? I believe the tables in the articles I created are a little easier to understand (separating the lists with whitespace, and coloring the headings). Of course I don't consider myself an expert tablemaker and I'm certainly open to changing to a new design, but changing, for example, the Alabama tables to the format I created can actually be done really easily:


 * Etc. I like referring to the individual seasons the player played in the career lists, and I'm not sure if a sortable table is really necessary. Any thoughts? Is it even important to have consistent tables across the articles?Jhn31 (talk) 23:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Jhn31, by capitalization, I'm talking about section headings like "Rushing Yards" (incorrect) vs "Rushing yards" (correct) and table headings like "Single-Season" (incorrect) vs. "Single-season" (correct). See Manual of Style/Capital letters for more on that. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Can you confirm that I have corrected the capitalization issues? They look kinda funny now, but I guess if that's Wikipedia policy, then that's how they'll have to be. Jhn31 (talk) 04:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Jhn31, the capitalization looks good now. Thanks for making the edits. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:38, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

AfD
Ugh, this: Articles for deletion/Under the Lights III. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:20, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Navboxes for national champions selected by Clyde Berryman
MisterCake has done a lot of good work of late building out content about Vanderbilt and other southern football teams during the early 20th century. As part of that, he's created a number of new national champion navboxes. Some of them may be problematic. Template:1920 Georgia Bulldogs football navbox, Template:1921 Vanderbilt Commodores football navbox, Template:1922 Vanderbilt Commodores football navbox represent national champions selceted by Clyde Berryman. While College football national championships in NCAA Division I FBS includes Clyde Berryman as a selector for national champions in later years, none of these championships from the early 1920s are noted there. The College Football Data Warehouse doesn't make note of them either. I don't think these championships have sufficient recognition to warrant a navbox. Thoughts? Jweiss11 (talk) 18:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I'll keep this short and sweet: we should only be permitting CFB national championship navboxes for consensus national champions, or in years when there was a split between the AP and UP/UPI/USA Today/Coaches polls, then we should permit two navboxes. Frankly, in reviewing the navboxes (see category here), I really think it's seriously doubtful whether we should be recognizing any CFB "national championship" prior to the first Associated Press Poll championship in 1936, let alone "championships" based on a minority of selectors or single selectors.  Many of the pre-1935 selectors weren't even contemporaneous: they were based on statistical analyses done years and even decades after the fact.  Moreover, navboxes exist to navigate among existing articles; we do not include players in championship navboxes for whom there are not already existing Wikipedia articles.  For many of these early "championships," there are only a handful of working links.  Without more than a handful of links, these navboxes become decorative banners, nothing more, nothing less.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Hell, we've got a 1913 Auburn "national championship" navbox for a year that Auburn doesn't even claim a championship. That's just wrong.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:30, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * For the record, 46 different teams can claim a "national championship" in the ten years before the first AP Poll championship, and there are literally dozens, if not hundreds in the 40 years before that. Are we going to have navboxes for all of them?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:08, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The 1913 Auburn title (corresponding navbox also created recently by MisterCake) appears to have greater recognition (e.g. NCAA record book, CFBDW) than the three I listed out above. Whatever the case, we should make some hard standards now. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * All for some standards. Just to say I think if you reduce it to only those that claim it, Alabama is going to have a great bulk. Seems often just the humility of the school when NCs were "mythical" for a long time. Bama even claims a 2-loss national title quite famously (and it's nothing like LSU's '07 2-loss title, say), and many teams don't claim titles in years when I cannot imagine they would ever pretend they couldn't beat, say, that Bama team. Of course it's still consistent to say a claim may be necessary but not sufficient; but it should be considered that who claims it might be sometimes irrelevant. The 1913 Auburn team almost certainly has the most selectors, though I grant many were retroactive and it still may not be enough or the right ones or whatever, of the recent navboxes I made. I tried to note the selectors on those navboxes for the reason of seeing which are the ones that matter, as I am curious myself. Berryman was very fond of 1920 Georgia, who could well have come on top in a mythical playoff between these handful of southern champs. Tis a shame they did not play Yale that early. Cake (talk) 11:58, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI, Georgia does not claim the 1920 "championship," either. And, yes, two or three of Bama's claimed championships are quite sketchy.  But we can also talk about the single-selector MNC that Ohio State claims for 1970, too.  This is why I've always sought to avoid having WP:CFB make subjective decisions about MNCs -- it puts us in the position of being a de facto "selector" and that violates WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:V.  We need a bright-line, objective standard.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:33, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I concur there should be a standard. And I am aware Georgia does not claim the 1920 championship, and that there are other poor selections than 1941 Bama. The point of bringing up Alabama is to show that it differs by the school for which they claim, so that that's not a good standard. All the "major" selectors - hopefully supplied by some criteria which I do not pretend to know well but agree should exist, seems the correct method, in my opinion. Only consensus selections pre 1936 is an option too. Cake (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Article for October 4, 2014, games in Mississippi?
The Ole Miss-Alabama and Mississippi State-Texas A&M games on October 4, 2014, got all kinds of hype leading up to them, and when both Mississippi schools pulled the upset, it got front page coverage in most Mississippi newspapers, on ESPN.com's front page, apparently will be the SI cover this week, and sports websites all over the Internet are calling it the greatest day in Mississippi sports history.

I don't know that each game deserves it own article (though I don't object), but what about a single article about both games, since almost all of the coverage has been about how both Mississippi programs have stepped up and won signature wins?Jhn31 (talk) 22:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No. 2014 Ole Miss Rebels football team and 2014 Mississippi State Bulldogs football team should suffice for proper coverage. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTNEWS --B (talk) 00:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * No. We do not encourage the creation of stand-alone articles for regular season games, unless there is some greater significance to the particular game.  Highlights from regular season games should be incorporated into team season articles and/or rivalry articles, to the extent applicable.  I have just nominated six regular season articles for deletion below, with more to come.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * What are the standards for a game to deserve its own article? Does "Bama's Revenge" meet said standards moreso than any other proposed or deleted articles? Around how many regular season games per year would you expect to warrant a separate article? 2? 0.5? Jhn31 (talk) 12:15, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Jhn, "Bama's Revenge" (i.e. the 2013 Alabama-Texas A&M game) has already been discussed among several of us, and it's on my hit list for an AfD in the very near future. There are several other recent Bama games, the 2001 Florida-Tennessee game, as well as at least 8 to 10 others from the 2000s that need to be discussed at AfD.  Several more "rivalry" game articles are going to be nominated for AfD, too.  How many regular season games merit a stand-alone article?  Well, that depends on the season, but certainly not more than a handful, and some years, none.  We've had several contributors who have been pushing the envelope, despite warnings and prior AfD deletions of newly created articles.  My rule of thumb: if it's not significant enough to merit at least a two-sentence mention in the main article for the two teams, it probably doesn't merit a stand-alone article.  Bottom line: stand-alone articles for regular season games are not encouraged.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:59, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * FYI, Jhn, "Bama's Revenge" has now been nominated for AfD (see Articles for deletion/2013 Alabama vs. Texas A&M football game). Thank you for reminding me.  Your participation in the AfD discussion is welcome.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Edit war at Michigan–Ohio State football rivalry
OSU and the NCAA vacated several 2010 OSU wins. The consensus on the Talk page for the above article, as well as that reached in discussions here, see here, and encapsulated at WikiProject_College_football/Vacated_victories, was that the historical results would be reported, but that the vacated games - officially, no longer victories - would neither be reported as such nor included in the school's overall W-L record. The subject page was revised in keeping with these discussions. Recently an editor has been (persistently) restoring the victory, in text, to Ohio State, with earlier edit summaries lacking a certain - civility. (Sample diff here.) I was reverting freely because I regarded it as vandalism, intentionally disruptive, when the editor persisted after being directed to these discussions and nevertheless electing not to discuss; but an admin at WP:AIV disagreed and sent me to 3RR. With that, I am done reverting, and raise it here so that editors experienced in this area can either 1) keep an eye on it as well or 2) tell me to up my meds and find something better to worry about. Or maybe both. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * John, I've watch-listed the article, and will jump in if needed. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:47, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

William Wurtenburg
I've been working on getting William Wurtenburg to FA for a while, and my peer review recently closed with no comments. I was wondering if there was anyone who would be willing to take a look at the article for me before I put it at FAC. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks, Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 01:06, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Awardgive, nice work on this article. I just made few edits to expand the infobox, clean up some formatting, and add a missing category.  One item that needs to be addressed  is that there's a contradiction between the lead and the body.  The lead states that Wurtenburg joined that Yale football team as a freshman in 1886.  The body of the article says that he joined the team as a sophomore in 1887.  I believe the lead is correct, but that should be cleared up. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, wow, a great article. I haven't given it a thorough review or reference double check, but it reads really well and looks like a top-notch article.--GrapedApe (talk) 04:22, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Alright, I fixed the contradiction. The body turned out to be right. The game was played in November 1887, and Wurtenburg entered the school in 1886, meaning it was his second year. Looks like I misread the source when I was writing the lead. I also went ahead and archived all possible links in the references. Does anything else stand out to anyone? Thanks for your comments, Jweiss11 and GrapedApe. - Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 03:44, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay, now the lead and and body of the article are consistent, but they contradict the infobox and Yale's own list of letterwinners, which indicate that Wurtenberg joined the football team as a freshman in 1886. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:23, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Alright, I believe everything has been corrected now. He joined the team in his freshman year in 1886, and made his most significant play in 1887, his sophomore year. I think I have fixed this in both the body and the lead. Are there any more problems that you see? Thanks for the help, - Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 14:48, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and nominated it at FAC. Any comments/help/support would be appreciated. Thanks, - Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 05:22, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Depth Charts
This may have been discussed before, but what should I use on the season-by-season depth charts? Opening day? Final game? Some kind of weighted average where the player who started the most games during the year is at the top of the depth chart? Jhn31 (talk) 02:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

CfD
Please comment on the CfD for Category:Night Games at Michigan Stadium. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 13:24, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Expert attention
This is a notice about Category:College football articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 16:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Merge location for Most weeks ranked number 1 (NCAA football)
Hey, I've updated the Most weeks ranked number 1 (NCAA football) article with the 2014 NCAA Record Book. The article is fringe, so wondering about suggestions for a merge. AP Poll and AP National Championship Trophy are both general, while 2014 NCAA Division I FBS football rankings is too specific. Thoughts appreciate. UW Dawgs (talk) 23:45, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I think it would be best to keep the article un-merged. As you suggest, there's really no good article to merge it into.  It is, however, badly in need of renaming.  How about List of college football teams by weekly appearances atop AP Poll? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Good call on the article move, which you implemented. I added it as a "See also" with 2014 NCAA Division I FBS football rankings, for some additional, contextual visibility. UW Dawgs (talk) 01:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I likw Jweiss11's title but I have a question. As an Oklahoma fan I am wondering how the Sooners is listed as first being number 1 in 1954, when the 1950 Sooners won the national championship that season?UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:51, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Good question. It is possible the 2014 record book is incorrect. See (cuurent) citation, "2014 NCAA Record Book" (pdf). NCAA.org. NCAA. 2014. p. 90. Retrieved October 14, 2014," although the 2012 has identical content. While the 2012 record book was listed as the nominal source prior to my edits, the table content clearly differed in multiple instances. UW Dawgs (talk) 05:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

AfD candidate
There's a new article for Greg Bower, a college football coach and former player of pretty minor note. He's never been a head coach and the most high-profile program he's been associated with is Northern Illinois. Thoughts about notability / AfD? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 03:36, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, you never know what you're going to find until you do your BEFORE homework, but I'm not seeing a lot in the article that screams "I'm notable per WP:GNG!" I suggest you take a look at the first several pages of a Google key word search.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:59, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Category:Players of American football from Louisville, Kentucky
You are invited to take part in a discussion about this category at Categories for discussion/Log/2014 October 24. Rikster2 (talk) 13:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested page move of a stadium article with naming rights
Hi there. A recent requested page move of O.co Coliseum to Oakland Coliseum has been re-listed for another week, and thus may need input by participants here at WikiProject College football.

At issue are WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMINGCRITERIA concerns that, if this move request passes, may eventually affect the naming of college football stadium articles: specifically whether to keep the current practice of renaming stadium articles whenever there is a new sponsor (like renaming Bronco Stadium to Albertsons Stadium), or permanently keep them at long-term, stable names (like always keeping articles at, for example, the Rutgers Stadium or Groves Stadium titles instead of their current corporate titles) regardless of current or future changes to the naming rights. Please discuss at Talk:O.co Coliseum. Thank you. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Automatic bids to college bowl games
This article is hopelessly out-of-date due to different contractual tie-ins for 2014, the switch from BCS to playoff, and the renaming of several games. I edited the part about BCS to playoff, but could somebody give it some love in the other areas? Thanks. p b  p  22:49, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion: regular season single-game articles
I have nominated the following articles for deletion:


 * 1. Articles for deletion/2014 Cowboys Classic - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 2. Articles for deletion/2013 Cowboys Classic - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 3. Articles for deletion/2012 Cowboys Classic - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 4. Articles for deletion/2011 Cowboys Classic - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 5. Articles for deletion/2010 Cowboys Classic - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 6. Articles for deletion/2009 Cowboys Classic - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 7. Articles for deletion/2013 Alabama vs. Texas A&M football game - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 8. Articles for deletion/2001 Tennessee vs. Florida football game - deleted at AfD (10/18/2014);
 * 9. Articles for deletion/2008 Chick-fil-A Kickoff Game - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 10. Articles for deletion/2009 Chick-fil-A Kickoff Game - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014;
 * 11. Articles for deletion/2010 Chick-fil-A Kickoff Game - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014;
 * 12. Articles for deletion/2011 Chick-fil-A Kickoff Game - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014);
 * 13. Articles for deletion/2012 Chick-fil-A Kickoff Game - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014); and
 * 14. Articles for deletion/1996 Texas Tech vs. Kansas State football game - deleted at AfD (10/15/2014).

User:Grayfell has also nominated the following two articles for deletion:
 * 15. Articles for deletion/2014 AdvoCare Texas Kickoff - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014); and
 * 16. Articles for deletion/2013 AdvoCare Texas Kickoff - deleted at AfD (10/14/2014).

And another article nominated by Jweiss11:
 * 17. Articles for deletion/Under the Lights III - deleted at AfD (10/18/2014).

I have also nominated the following two articles for deletion: --Ahecht ( TALK PAGE ) 22:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * 18. Articles for deletion/2013 Chick-fil-A Kickoff Game - deleted at AfD (10/22/2014); and
 * 19. Articles for deletion/2014 Chick-fil-A Kickoff Game - deleted at AfD (10/23/2014).

And another nominated by X96lee15:
 * 20. Articles for deletion/The Cam-Back - deleted at AfD (10/20/2014).

New round of single-game AfD nominations:
 * 21. Articles for deletion/2008 Texas vs. Texas Tech football game - no consensus, kept at AfD (11/5/2014);
 * 22. Articles for deletion/2008 Oregon vs. Oregon State football game - deleted at AfD (11/5/2014); and
 * 23. Articles for deletion/2007 Missouri vs. Kansas football game - deleted at AfD (11/5/2014).

User:Bikeroo has also nominated the following article:


 * 24. Articles for deletion/"13-10" - deleted at AfD (11/6/2014).

As a general proposition, we do not permit discourage stand-alone articles for regular season single games unless there is some greater significance to the particular game. Without some historical significance to an individual game, we encourage the incorporation of game highlights into rivalry series and individual season articles; that's why these season and rivalry articles exist. This is amply supported by existing consensus and prior AfD outcomes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:12, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't "permit" ?? I believe we don't "encourage" would be a better phrase.--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, Paul, and that is the language that I usually use. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:01, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I don't have a problem with individual game articles provided the game passes WP:GNG.  This is a WP:FLIPFLOP from my position many years ago.  I would even go further and say, "Hey that individual mid-season game might pass WP:GNG but that doesn't mean you should make an article for it." -- we would be better served focusing on a lot of other articles that need help.  WP:IGNORE comes to mind for the discussion.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that I see a good reason for a distinction between pre-season kickoff games and bowl games. Why do we have an article on say, the 2010 Beef 'O' Brady's Bowl?  Whatever reason you could come up with I would think would apply to the preseason kickoff games as well. I'm ambivalent about the ones that aren't "named" games and something like the 2001 UF-UTenn game, which was huge that season in determining the MNC (there was a whole mess of upsets right at the end of the season), could be covered in articles about the season and about the rivalry itself.  But for the named games ... I'm having trouble seeing a reason to cover every postseason bowl game, but not every pre-season bowl game.  The pre-season games, just like the post-season bowl games get far more media coverage than your typical game and they are generally festive bowl-like atmospheres. --B (talk) 13:16, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * For the simple reason that kickoff games are regular season games, not postseason bowl games. Bowls are, by definition, a reward for a successful regular season.  Invitations for kickoff game participants are usually based on recent team history and the likelihood of putting butts in the stadium seats.  No small difference.  As for the 2010 Beef O'Brady Bowl, I tend to agree that not all editions of minor bowls merit stand-alone articles, but that's not the way the NSPORTS notability guidelines are currently written.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm in favor of the notability of post-season bowl games - even minor ones. 2009 International Bowl, for example, is a Featured Article on Wikipedia, and I feel that most, if not all post-season bowl game articles (even minor ones) could probably reach that status too, if not for a lack of editor interest. However, theses so-called "Kickoff" games are really just regular season football games, and covering each college football team's regular season is the primary purpose of the WP:CFB team season articles. We don't need to duplicate that purpose with a whole new class of single-game articles, especially considering most of these article's perma-stub status. I also share Dirtlawyer's concern about WP:RECENTISM in relation to these individual kickoff game articles, too. Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:03, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI, we have 45 stand-alone articles about regular season CFB games from 1869 to 1999 (or about one every three years); since 2000, we have added 47 stand-alone articles about regular season games, including 18 kickoff games (or about 3.35 per year for each of the last 14 seasons). Clearly, we have added more stand-alone articles about regular season games from the 2000s than any other era, I suggest that WP:RECENTISM is at work, and I seriously question whether most of those 47 hold up to our GNG plus "historical significance" standard.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:55, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with DL that there's a difference between an end-of-season bowl game between two teams that had to meet at least minimal season requirements to play in it, and an early regular season game that features whatever two big-name teams the sponsor was able to corral for the match. These are regular matches, with a sponsor's name slapped onto them.  I don't know how that, in and of itself, warrants separate Wikipedia articles for each of them, irrespective of the importance or notability of the particular early-season, getting-out-the-kinks game.  JohnInDC (talk) 14:13, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * By the way, this is a lot of deletions to run all at once of historical games when most people active in the project are working on current events. See WP:CFBOFFSEASON.  I'm against all these proposed deletions at this time and believe we should work a little harder at actually having consensus instead of just saying we have consensus.  A lot of active project members from the past have build a lot of those season articles because it was encouraged then.  Saying "we decided" now is not good for the project.--Paul McDonald (talk) 00:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Paul, I don't believe anyone is suggesting we delete any season articles. Quite the contrary; we want to support the season articles without forking/fragmenting the content into single-game articles of marginal notability and marginal suitability.  As far as I know, all of the objectionable articles are regular season single-game articles, most of which have been created in the last year or so by the same one or two editors.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:26, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

On this topic, Primetime Drama has been slated for a merge since its AfD closed in July. Does someone want to take the lead on executing that merge? 03:02, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know. It's been on my to-do list since July.  I'll put time aside this weekend to deal with it, and the two merge targets.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI, JW, please see my request to complete the post-merge deletion process here: User talk:Deor. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:47, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Help discussing an article's name
Hey, I just recently declined a speedy deletion move request for Illibuck Trophy. Apparently the page was originally located at Illinois–Ohio State football rivalry and User:Vjmlhds moved it to the article's current location as well as to Illibuck Trophy Game, both of which were contested by User:AL2896. I want to stress that I am neutral over the article's name and by declining the speedy, I am not endorsing the current name. It's just that the name does appear to be under some form of debate and I think that a formal discussion over what to call the article should probably take place. I've posted a move request on the article's talk page and I think that it'd be a good idea if some of you guys took part in it so there can be multiple opinions. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   05:12, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi, Tokyogirl79. AL2896 has quite a reputation around the college football project, as he is fairly notorious around here for his controversial, undiscussed, serial moves of college football rivalry articles. AL2896 is frequently involved in moving college football rivalry articles and he always moves them away from the trophy/game nicknames in favor of the "Team A–Team B football rivalry" format. The fact that, in some (if not most) of the cases the trophies and nicknames are the clear WP:COMMONNAME appears to mean nothing to him, nor does that fact that nearly all of these articles have been stable at their current location for years. There was a mass counter-move request aimed at correcting AL2896's serial moves a wihile back (see here) that basically failed because no admin wanted to deal with the headaches that trying to untangle such a large amount of moves would entail, nor with the drama of trying to deal with AL2896 after they moved them back (if past pattens are any indication, he won't go quietly into the night on any of them - he'll simply wait a month or so, then try to move them again). Many of the articles have remained at their "new" locations for precisely the same reasons, as people simply decided it wasn't worth the time or effort (A weird side-issue that has cropped up recently is AL2896 serially deleting information from the infoboxes of college football rivalry articles - with similar results to his whole article-move drama). To sum it up, while I do not want to speak about this specific case as I am not an expert on Illinois or Ohio State football, in general, if there is any type of move controversy surrounding a college football rivalry article, and if AL2896 is involved in it, I would be pretty near willing to bet money that AL2896 is wrong. Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:44, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you! That's good to know! I probably won't close the proposal since I'm somewhat involved at this point and because I have little to no true experience with football related topics, but this is good to know. It makes me kind of glad that I didn't revert it back. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   03:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

AfD: SoCal Coyotes -- needs help
Does anyone have time to take a look at this: Articles for deletion/SoCal Coyotes? Rarely, if ever, have I seen an AfD that was a bigger mess than this one. The author (and sole substantive discussion participant) has created a nearly impenetrable wall of repetitive commentary, and has done his article, this AfD, and other editors a disservice by doing so. It's a mess, and it's apparent from the lack of commentary that everyone, including all of the regular participants in American football-related AfD discussions, is shying away from this AfD because of the required effort to wade through the volume of accumulated material. Rather than relist this article again in a week, I am going to request that editors who are regular members of WP:CFB and WP:NFL focus on this AfD and come to a decision based on WP:ORG and WP:GNG. Perhaps we can find some way to divvy up the necessary AfD homework among several WP:CFB editors, so we can make a sensible recommendation to keep or delete this article, but this has gone on long enough. Anyone? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The whole article is a mess, oh man. It goes further into the weeds than a lot of Division I articles!  I'm taking a crack - with a broad brush - at cleaning it up, and perhaps when the thing is a bit smaller it'll be easier to assess.  I'm afraid that a lot of the sentiment to delete the thing reflects the (absolutely correct) sentiment that the article should be about 15% as big as it is right now.  JohnInDC (talk) 03:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * John, we may want to make some attempt to assess the subject team's notability before you wander too far into the weeds. I started looking at sources for the team about 7-10 days ago, and I think there's no better than a 50% chance we keep the article.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:37, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I won't, thanks. I don't care to spend the time turning this into a decent article, not yet - I do think though that it would be easier to assess if it were more closely confined to the information that might actually be "notable".  Like I said - maybe there's a pony in there, and to figure that out, it might help to shovel away a lot of the stuff that doesn't resemble a pony.  JohnInDC (talk) 11:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The article lent itself pretty well to piecemeal remedial work - consolidate some refs here, remove some fluff there - which turned out to be good way to avoid other things I didn't want to be doing, the upshot being that over the past few days I've chopped it down to perhaps a quarter of its original size. It's pretty clear that the team is covered only by two or three local outlets, with a few stray passing mentions in other media from time to time.  The article is still too long for what the subject is, but I think it's a lot easier now to read it and get a sense of whether it should stay or go.  JohnInDC (talk) 15:34, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Deleted. JohnInDC (talk) 12:47, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Category:All-Southern college football players
I'm going to nominate Category:All-Southern college football players for deletion unless someone cares to convince me otherwise. Thoughts? Jrcla2 (talk) 15:57, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI, Jrcla, in the era before Walter Camp and the major New York-based wire services started to treat Southern college athletes on equal footing with Ivy and Big Ten jocks in the 1920s and 1930s, being recognized as a first-team All-Southern selection by one of the major regional newspapers was the equivalent of being an All-American. For a 20 to 30-year period, "All-Southern" was how we recognized our own when Camp and the New York media would not.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:20, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of the history, thank you for the input. I would reconsider the nomination if you detailed this in the category's description. I would say 99.999% of college football fans don't know this, and even an established editor like me thought that this category is unnecessary. Had I read that it was essentially the southern equivalent of the northern-biased All-American selections, I probably wouldn't have jumped to deletion consideration. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:38, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Mister Cake has been doing some good work in this area, but we probably need to create a four or five paragraph article that explains the history behind the All-Southern honors and why they were a regionally big deal until 1930 or so. FYI, Walter Camp did not recognize a first-team All-American from the South until 1918, and his All-American teams were heavily biased toward the Ivy League and other northeastern teams, and the favoritism gradually expanded to include the Big Ten and Notre Dame.  In terms of the implementation of an "All-Southern" category, we also need to make sure we properly source the individual players' first-team honors with footnotes to original source newspapers.  There is a lot of inaccurately reported information out there from different sources, with media guides routinely reporting second-team and honorable mention honors as first-team honors.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:25, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Only just noticed this. Dirtlawyer is quite right to say the information could and should be expanded, and I've already considered things like in future having pages for each year like the All-American pages. I'm still for now trying to find which players made it. For instance I've only one team in 1899, which scorns Diddy Seibels' fumbling and thus does not select him, though there are few things I am more confident about on this subject than that if I find others they will have him. It has its own little problems analogous to Camp not choosing Southern players as he saw few - for example I must distinguish between, say, an All SAIAA team and an All-Southern team by an SAIAA official simply colored by which teams he got to see. I also must plead ignorance to a great deal of the history which one would need in an article, such as when this practice starts.  I have W. A. Lambeth (surely the namesake of where the Virginia Cavaliers used to play, Lambeth Field. He and William Lofland Dudley seem synonymous with Southern football in the 1890s, but sadly all I've said here is all I know of him) calling it a "custom" in 1898, suggesting it's been around a while by then. Cake (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Started this up: College Football All-Southern Team, and starting things such as 1917 College Football All-Southern Team. I believe Fuzzy Woodruff's History of Southern Football gives a comprehensive history of All-Southern teams, but difficult to find a cheap, used copy (it comes in 3 volumes). Cake (talk) 18:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Pending Articles for Deletion discussion regarding single-game CFB articles
Quick reminder to everyone that there are four pending single-game AfD nominations:


 * 21. Articles for deletion/2008 Texas vs. Texas Tech football game;
 * 22. Articles for deletion/2008 Oregon vs. Oregon State football game;
 * 23. Articles for deletion/2007 Missouri vs. Kansas football game; and
 * 24. Articles for deletion/"13-10".

Please voice your opinion in these discussions. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Use of mouseover in tables
Is there a Wikipedia convention on the proper use of mouseover in tables? Is it generally accepted? Which of these two tables would be preferable?

I definitely prefer the compactness of the first table, but I don't think the mouseover is always easily available on mobile devices? Is there an established Wikipedia preference on this? Jhn31 (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Jhn31, that's a great question. I've seen mouse-over used some in interesting and potentially promising ways elsewhere on college football articles, to explain won-loss records in prose and to clarify assistant/positional coaching abbreviations in infoboxes.  I'm not aware, though, if there are guidelines or preferences for its use. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:14, 4 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Cool trick! I would say go with the second for Wikipedia.  It will have the broadest reach based on use and understanding.  Mouse-overs don't work very well when people print out hard copies...--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:29, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Go with the second one. I probably would never have even noticed that the info was there in the first one. Ejgreen77 (talk) 13:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Yearly record templates
I'm in the process of completing List of NC State Wolfpack football seasons, however it appears that the page uses its own wikitable, as opposed to Template:CFB Yearly Record. Should I import the template into the page? It looks like there's quite a bit of inconsistency across all of the various CFB seasons pages.--Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 01:07, 8 November 2014 (UTC)


 * , yes, indeed, about the inconsistency. It would be great if someone could take the lead on standardizing these lists.  Does anyone have a preference among the existing forms? Jweiss11 (talk) 08:02, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I would assume that the template version is designed to be better than the wikitable version since its newer, although personally I don't like how it's so narrow compared to the total width of the page. I'm willing to work on standardizing the lists, but I don't think I"m familiar enough with wikitext to go forward with anything major.--Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 02:24, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Today's Featured Article discussion related to this project
The 2008 ACC Championship Game was a college football game between the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Boston College Eagles.

I've nominated 2008 ACC Championship Game for consideration as Today's Featured Article, see discussion at Today's featured article/requests/2008 ACC Championship Game. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:16, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

AfD: 2007 Pittsburgh vs. West Virginia football game
2007 Pittsburgh vs. West Virginia football game has been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion here. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:55, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Template:1899 Sewanee Tigers football navbox
Should this exist? Jrcla2 (talk) 17:51, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The short answer is no, it should not exist. We do not do navboxes for conference championship teams.  The creator, Mister Cake, has done some excellent work in Southern football topics, but this is an over-reach, and so is the navbox that lists pre-1933 SIAA and SoCon championship teams.  There is no precedent for either navbox.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:13, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * DL, agreed on all points. Mister Cake has done a lot of great work on Southern college football, particularly over the last few months, but a little too much work in a few places.  I think this navbox needs to go as well: Template:Sewanee Tigers All-Time football navbox.  Jweiss11 (talk) 22:19, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The All-Time team can be easily sourced, and the Iron Men of Sewanee were one of the greatest collection of men put on a southern gridiron, but if neither by itself allows for inclusion, I can understand. Helps a lot when one has sources about the team to have a navbox to the players. Hope I haven't added too much trivia. Cake (talk) 04:22, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not everything that is sourceable needs a navbox. Something like the Sewannee All-Time team deserves mention on Sewanee Tigers football and in the bio articles of its members, but does it need a navbox?  Jweiss11 (talk) 09:31, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Conference champions and the Playoff
(Originally posted on the CFP talk page, but I meant to post it here.) Now that we don't have the BCS anymore: on the conference standings templates, I've set up the standings end template to render the standard †–Conference champion, at the bottom. I feel that this is the best way to represent this, as doing it as we did in the past with the BCS (†–BCS representative as champion) with the playoff would be awkward, because if the templates did say †–CFP representative as conference champion, then that could cause confusion if that conference champion is in a bowl that participates in the CFP system, but is not a semifinal bowl that year. For the teams that make it to the Top 4 after Championship Saturday, I set up the standings templates to show ^–College Football Playoff participant, and #–College Football Playoff champion if they were to win. Much of this confusion could be averted if the playoff contained 8 teams with all 5 conference champions getting an automatic bid, but that's a topic for the Paul Finebaum show. Otherwise, are there any thoughts on this? BenYes? 03:40, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Proper wording?
Mike Christie raised a question over at William Wurtenburg FAC about my wording of "national champions", and I am at a loss for how I should respond. When thinking about it, I probably use three different wordings interchangeably to say national champion, and I have no clue which way would probably by most proper. The three possible phrases would be:
 * The team was named national champions.
 * The team were named national champions.
 * The team was named the national champion.

I don't know if this is just my problem and there is an obvious answer to my question, but at the moment I'm stumped. The current phrase I'm using in the article is "the Yale team shut out every single one of its opponents and was named national champions". It seemed to work at first, but now it doesn't really sound right. Anyone know what I should do? Thanks, - A Texas Historian (Talk to me) 06:02, 2 December 2014 (UTC)


 * In the case of this article, since we're talking about national championships that were awarded retroactively and do not necessarily reflect any sort of consensus, the best verbiage would be: "The team was later recognized as a national champion." Jweiss11 (talk) 07:34, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

List of American football players who died during their career
List of American football players who died during their career was created in the last day and then nominated for deletion. Please take a look and comment. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 06:20, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * So thorough it's a bit bewildering yet no Richard Von Albade Gammon! Cake (talk) 14:39, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a very crappy list article, focused on recent NFL players who died in car accidents, shootings, and drug overdoses. Zero good research by the article creators, and they don't seem to have the background historical knowledge to focus on the spate of game-related deaths in the early 1900s that led to football moratoriums in several states, the intervention of President Teddy Roosevelt, the formation of the NCAA, and the adoption of safety equipment.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:04, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Marshall–UCF football rivalry
Marshall–UCF football rivalry has been nominated for deletion. Please comment here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 20:22, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Template:CFB Yearly Record End/footnotes
I'd like to discuss a recent change to Template:CFB Yearly Record End/footnotes, which renders the footnotes at the bottom of yearly record tables, most often seen on coach bio articles. brought up the topic here in August, but we didn't have much of discussion. Only and I commented, and that was to discuss a side note, not the central topic, which is denotation of BCS, Bowl Alliance, or Bowl Coalition games in light of the move to the College Football Playoff (CFP). After a the lack of discussion/objection, Kgwo1972 moved ahead with his proposed edit to the template footnotes, adding notation for CFP and deleting all for the earlier systems, but I think some more input is needed here. It seems that if the BCS and its predecessors were worthy enough of special notation before, they are still historically worthy of such, even though a new system is now in place. Should we have one marker for all four systems? A different marker for each of the four. Just mark the current CFP system, as Kgwo1972 has proposed and executed? Thoughts? Jweiss11 (talk) 21:14, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Can we get some comment here? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 10:42, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * There needs to be continued notation of BCS Championship Game and other BCS bowl games: the BCS was the accepted method for recognizing an on-the-field CFB consensus champion for 16 seasons (1998–2013). While it had its share of controversy, the BCS was a significant step forward from the Bowl Alliance (1995–97) and Bowl Coalition (1992–94), in which the Pac-10 and Big Ten did not participate, and consistently achieved its goal: crowning an on-the-field championship team.  Removing the notations is to ignore that history, and pretend that the new four-team college football playoff is somehow a perfect system while the BCS two-team championship was somehow illegitimate.  Neither is true, and the BCS was clearly a radical step forward in replacing the pre-1992 championship "system" of multiple dueling polls.  Bottom line: a notation for BCS Championship Games and BCS bowl games should be restored.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:54, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Dirtlawyer1, just to clarify are you arguing to restore notation for all BCS games, not just the BCS Championship Games? What about Bowl Alliance and owl Coalition (1992–94)? Jweiss11 (talk) 16:56, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, JW, but I missed this earlier. In answer to your question, yes, I think Bowl Coalition, Bowl Alliance and BCS championship games and bowls should be notated in some form or fashion.  The new 2015 College Football Playoff Championship Game is no more important or noteworthy than the 1998 BCS Championship Game, and the Fiesta Bowl, Orange Bowl and Sugar Bowl have been part of these arrangements since 1992, with the Rose Bowl being added later.  For all the hoopla about the CFP, there's more in common with the prior championship systems than not.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:59, 2 December 2014 (UTC)


 * DL, no worries. Agreed on a marker for BC, BA, BCS, and CFP.  Do we need four markers, one for each?  Previously we had one marker for BC, BA, and BCS.  Jweiss11 (talk) 07:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd like to thank Jweiss11 for making me aware of this discussion. Last evening, I edited the footnotes to read "$†$Indicates BCS bowl, Bowl Alliance, Bowl Coalition, or College Football Playoff (CFP) game." This seemed to be the simplest approach to this problem. BCS, BA, BC, and CFP are all major bowls and deserve such a notation. At this time, breaking these into separate groups with individual notations would, in my opinion, unnecessarily clutter the box. However, a discussion should continue on the best approach to pursue. --  NEMESIS63  | talk  |  20:40, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Minnesota–Nebraska football rivalry
Minnesota–Nebraska football rivalry has been nominated for deletion. Please comment here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 07:30, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

1996 UCLA at Tennessee football game
I have nominated 1996 UCLA at Tennessee football game for deletion. Please comment here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 07:39, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Individual Season Articles
I recently took a crack at writing an individual season article (Marshall 1998)and I'd like to do some more, but I wanted to make sure I was following notability guidelines before I put the work in. Are seasons of FCS teams considered notable? The specific ones I'm thinking of are the Marshall seasons 1993-1995 (back when they were FCS), although I may go back further than 1993 if I have time and it's considered notable. Thanks! Chuy1530 (talk) 20:00, 9 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Chuy1530, thanks for creating the article for the 1998 Marshall team. We've pretty much established than any season for a college football team that now plays at the Division I level (FBS or FCS) is notable enough to warrant its own article.  I wouldn't hesitate going ahead and creating articles for the 1993 though 1995 Marshall teams or any Marshall teams going back to the program's inception in 1895.  I made a few edits to the 1998 Marshall article to improve the copy, fix a few factual errors, and improve formatting.  Let me know if you have any questions about anything there.  Thanks again, Jweiss11 (talk) 21:56, 9 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the answer, I figured it was something like that but wanted to make sure. Also thanks for fixing up the 1998 article, I'll keep the fixes you made in mind when I make another one. Chuy1530 (talk) 22:33, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

RM discussion potentially of interest
The requested move discussion here may be of interest to project members. Thanks.  Go  Phightins  !  22:41, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Brett Salisbury
Hello everyone. I don't edit college football articles much, so I am not that familiar with your notability criteria. I do edit hockey articles, and I am pretty sure this guy would fail ours. I am thinking of AFDing it, but, I don't want to waste anyone's time. Thanks! Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:26, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
 * He doesn't qualify under any special notability guidelines. His notability would need to be assessed under WP:GNG to determine whether he has been the subject of significant coverage in independent, reliable sources, not simply routine coverage such as passing references in game coverage. Cbl62 (talk) 23:30, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I think he's mildly notable as a football player. He has been self-editing the page to describe his post-football career feats of science, nutrition, and male modeling for a while now, but I think the part about his football career is pretty well referenced now. FYI, the article did survive an AFD back in 2010. --Esprqii (talk) 00:23, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
 * That's one of the more bizarre AfDs I've seen for a college football player. A lot of agenda pushing by and single-purpose IP editor who made unsubstantiated claims about Salisbury being a best-selling author (his book was actually self-published) and an elite male model (no sourcing). Cbl62 (talk) 17:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I had forgotten how crazy it was with all the sockpuppetry. Amazing to read it all through again. --Esprqii (talk) 17:48, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Army national championship navboxes
Seem like candidates for creation. 1945 Army Cadets football team, College football national championships in NCAA Division I FBS, just a few links. Here's some 1945 guys Earl Blaik, Doc Blanchard, Glenn Davis (American football), Shorty McWilliams.WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 03:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I made one if anyone ever wonders. Template:1945 Army Cadets football navbox WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 19:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Looking for some consensus on "Head coaching record" section
So, Mackensen and myself have been discussing the "Head coaching record" section at Talk:Gary Andersen, and whether or not the 2015 Outback Bowl belongs in Andersen's head coaching record section. I'm hoping that some folks can help us come to a consensus. Thanks, —  dain  omite   00:04, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * This reminds me of Frank Solich's article lists the bowl appearance of the 2002 season at Nebraska without a W whereas Bo Pelini has the appearance for the 02 season. Ironically the bowl is absent from his page for this season.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:54, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with Mackensen's argument that, for example, Gary Andersen's head coaching record table should display a link (with no decision) to the 2015 Outback Bowl since, as he put it, "the team, under his supervision, qualified for that bowl game". In contrast, Lane Kiffin was gone from USC in 2013 long before the team was invited to the 2013 Las Vegas Bowl, so there's no reason to note that bowl game in his record.  As for formatting notes about about such mid-season coaching changes and associated splitting of records between multiple coaches, I think Billy Kinard or Brian Kelly (American football coach) are good examples to work off of. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:27, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Or, see my recent edits on Bo Pelini. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:47, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Template:Ernie Davis Award
I have nominated the recently created Template:Ernie Davis Award for deletion. Please comment here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 05:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Templete merger proposal
There is a proposal to merge Template:Infobox gridiron football person and Template:Infobox college football player. Please comment here. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:41, 14 December 2014 (UTC) Folks, you need to understand what has been proposed by this TfD: two non-sports editors have proposed that we merge the existing imperfect infobox for college football players into the less-than-ideal infobox for Canadian football players. Time to speak up, unless you want non-sports editors dictating how CFB and NFL article graphics must appear. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * JW, I had "Infobox college football player" watch-listed because of past ill-considered merge proposals at TfD. I have posted a fairly lengthy "oppose" !vote and rationale for this proposed merge.  In short, we do not need a one-size-fits-all infobox for American college football players and Canadian professional football players; what we need is a better, reworked infobox for current college football players, but one that is versatile enough to cover notable former college football players who never played professional football of any kind.  I have explained this rationale at some length in the TfD discussion.  Please reply here or on my talk page with your thoughts.  Thanks.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * In the interest of a centralized discussion, please do it at the TfD at Templates_for_discussion/Log/2014_December_14.—Bagumba (talk) 23:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

All-America Selectors
Can we add the Athlon Sports and FoxSports.com All-America lists to the 2014 College Football All-America Team? Thanks, wscsuperfan — Preceding undated comment added 01:29, 18 December 2014 (UTC)