Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Archive 12

Article on Sigismond Thalberg
I'd be gratfeul if anyone here who would like a distraction from the interminable infobox debate could look at the Sigismond Thalberg article. I'm looking for outside and objective opinions on the neutrality of the article, especially where Liszt is concerned. Any general comments on the article would also be most welcome. Thanks :-) M A Mason 12:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion discussion
See Articles for deletion/Lists of African Americans. Badagnani 02:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Relevant article - List of composers of African descent Ans e ll  04:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Correction. I am blind today. Mass deletion nominations confuse me. Ans e ll  04:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Infobox compromise
How about if we just stick the bio-boxes on the talk pages? Could the The microformats project work with that? --S.dedalus 01:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

An anon editor, in his first wikipedia edit, added back the infobox to Edvard Grieg, where POTW had edit warred in the past. Editors might be on the lookout for POTW circumventing his ban. Fireplace 22:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I doubt very much it's Andy Mabbett. "Whois" shows that anonymous account comes from Norway (like Grieg!). --Folantin 06:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Featured article review/Dmitri Shostakovich
Please consider registering an opinion at Featured article review/Dmitri Shostakovich on the Dmitri Shostakovich article. –Outriggr § 23:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Infoboxes again
If there is an infobox that works for every single musician, I think that composers can handle an infobox. It doesn't need to be perfect, just simple biographical details. The rest of wikipedia has already decided that infoboxes are the way to go, there is no reason that composers should be special. Articles nominated without an info box are asked to add one in one of the first comments normally. -Ravedave 20:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately you're mythologizing. It's simply not true that  "the rest of wikipedia has already decided that [biographical] infoboxes are the way to go" . In any case this project has decided not to use biographical infoboxes and you'll find that there is no interest in re-opening discussions about it. -- Kleinzach 23:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Terrible. We'll I guess I'll leave composers to this club. Go ahead and archive. -Ravedave 01:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Portuguese composers
I am dedicating myself to enrich Wikipedia's list of articles on Portuguese composers. These are the articles on Portuguese composers I have written so far:


 * Filipe de Magalhães
 * Esteban López Morago
 * Estêvão de Brito
 * Manuel Machado (composer)
 * Manuel Correia

Nuno Raimundo 13:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion notification: Andrew Daniels

 * --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 00:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Composers
Category:Composers is filled with articles which should be moved to subcategories and removed from the main category. The composers category itself should probably be left with only subcategories since its such a broad topic. Anyone want to help move out the 200+ articles which are listed there? =) --Sketchee 07:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

FA lists up-to-date?
Hi there. I'm trying to get a list of all FA-class articles covered by this and similar WikiProjects. I found WikiProject Opera (I removed Porgy and Bess, which got demoted a week or so ago) and WikiProject Composers (but nothing for WikiProject Classical music), but I'm not sure if those lists are up-to-date. For example, Beijing opera is not on that list. I'm trying to pick out the classical music and opera articles (and more 'high brow' articles) from the popular culture music articles at FA. I normally use the relevant subcategories of Category:FA-Class articles, but I don't think the Opera, Composers, or Classical Music wikiprojects use an assessment scheme. So I'm asking here if this list complete? Beijing opera (missing from the opera list), Concerto delle donne, Rebecca Helferich Clarke, Guqin, Blues, Himno Nacional Mexicano, My Belarusy, National Anthem of Russia, Josquin des Prez, Witold Lutosławski, Olivier Messiaen, Mor lam, Leo Ornstein (missing from the composers list), Dmitri Shostakovich, Sonatas and Interludes, Sylvia (ballet), Symphony No. 3 (Górecki), Joseph Szigeti, Thespis (opera) (missing from the opera list), Tōru Takemitsu. I've updated the lists where I can, and made a new section for the Classical Music wikiproject, but I may have missed some - if others could help make sure this is all up-to-date, that would be great. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 23:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal
(X-posted from my Talk page and the Cliasical Music Project.) It has been proposed by Pixelface (talk) that all the articles in Category:Symphonies by Joseph Haydn be merged into the main list of symphonies since he argues all of the symphony articles fail WP:MUSIC, with the exception that symphonies 82 through 87 be merged into Paris symphonies and symphonies 93 through 104 be merged into London symphonies. I suggest that we create a centralised discussion for this since it will have ramifications for individual works by numerous other composers. Any thoughts as to the best venue for this? Current discussion is at Talk:List_of_symphonies_by_Joseph_Haydn. Eusebeus (talk) 05:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Composer
This template for a composers biographical infobox was created on 15 December by ftsang. Should we ask for this to be deleted as being contrary to the wishes of most participants here, as well as project guidelines? -- Kleinzach (talk) 07:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Beware the Law of Unintended Consequences. Putting this up for deletion might not be a good idea.  Do you really want a whole bunch of people completely ignorant on the topic of composers, but who think boxes are shiny and pretty and of great and surpassing coolness, to not only prevent deletion (because they will) but start adding boxes to those unfortunate articles that don't have them?  Antandrus  (talk) 01:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Wise words, but there again it might be even wiser to stop working on the articles altogether! Bio-infobox creation has been less popular recently. I think this is because so many of the photos have been deleted as non-free images. For what it's worth, I don't think the template has actually been used yet. -- Kleinzach (talk) 01:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Riccardo Pick-Mangiagalli
I am not a member of this project but I just thought i might mention that there is no page on the composer Riccardo Pick-Mangiagalli if someone was looking for a project.Nrswanson (talk) 03:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyone know Italian? Riccardo_Pick-Mangiagalli DavidRF (talk) 03:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Infoboxes referred to WikiProject Council
The infobox issue has been referred to the WikiProject Council, see Inappropiate Ownership Attempts. This primarily relates to the Classical music project, however the Composers Project is of course mentioned as the main centralized discussions took place here. -- Kleinzach (talk) 03:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Council discussion on the inter-relationship of classical music projects
There's been a discussion about merging the mainstream (classical music) projects here. One idea that has been floated is to make this project a task force of the Classical Music project. (Many editors assume this is a mainstream (classical music) composers project, though of course the project scope at present extends to all composers.) What do people here think? -- Kleinzach (talk) 23:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I must note that I am personally not one of the editors that assume or have assumed that this project relates solely to classical music. I have always seen it relating to all composers in any genre, so I would certainly object to a merge with the classical music project.  To me that would be exclusionary of many great composers.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 07:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * What kind of non-mainstream (classical) composers are now covered by this project? -- Kleinzach (talk) 09:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, some subcategories of this project (Category:Composers) include Anime, Fictional, Film score, Jazz, Light music, Musical Theatre, even Category:Songwriters, Category:Singer-songwriters or Category:Jewish composers and songwriters which include say Billy Joel for example, as well as, of course, all the classical music subcategories. Hence, and I may be ignorant here and completely off base on what the ultimate goal is, but I just never thought this particular project related solely to classical composers.  So if this project became a child of the Classical Music Project, would that be exclusionary or still encompass all composers I wonder. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 14:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Under the circumstances, it might make more sense then to not merge the two officially. This is not to say that this project might not develop a subproject devoted to classical composers, as that might reasonably be able to function with the other two. However, one might consider then adjusting the project's name. I don't think the word composers calls to mind images of Paul McCartney, for instance. In fact, other than Boz Scaggs, Billy Joel, Christine McVie, Willie Nelson, Roy Orbison, and a very few others, the articles which this project has indicated an interest in are almost exclusively instrumental/classical. That being the case, you can't really fault others for thinking that this group is primarily interested in classical music when those seem to be just about the only articles this project has indicated any interst in. John Carter (talk) 14:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * All good points and I agree. I actualy think that composers and songwriters should be separate entities/projects altogether, but for now they are subcats.  Personally, my many interests include instrumental composers, but not of mainstream classical music, so it didn't make sense to me to associate all composers strickly with the CM project.  But I am only one.  Maybe some reorganization and/or clarity is in order some how.  Wish I had a good suggestion.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It's important to remember that there is a huge corpus of mainstream songwriting - Schubert, Schumann, Debussy and dozens of others - so I don't think separating composers and songwriters would work.

Anyway if this project is cross-genre then that pretty much obviates this discussion, I think. Regards! --Kleinzach (talk) 23:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced categories
While exploring the sub-categories of Category:Classical composers I noticed a couple of oddments. Firstly, I found a few instances of Category:Categories named after musicians included in composer super-categories. E.g. Category:Richard Wagner is included in Category:German opera composers. Since Category:Richard Wagner is in turn a parent of Category:Compositions by Richard Wagner, the implication is that Parsifal is a member of Category:German opera composers.

Secondly, there are things which aren't composers e.g. First Viennese School appears in Category:Classical composers. Shouldn't only composers and sub-categories be included under Category:Composers and no other articles appear even if they happen to be about groups of composers? Owen Fraser-Green (talk) 22:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Welcome to Wikipedia and the sometimes strange world of its categories! Anyone can create categories with ease, though for reasons to do with the software it is usually necessary to go through a complicated procedure to remove them. My understanding is that eponymous categories like Category:Richard Wagner are a bad thing, though Wagner is served by its own project here so in practice there may be some justification in this case. Anyway if you find things in categories which logically shouldn't be there then the best thing to do is take them out. Hope this is helpful. Best. --Kleinzach (talk) 23:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Just wanted to check doing so wouldn't disrupt a grand plan. I've tidied up Category:Classical composers and its decendents so, as far as I can see, they only contain composers' main articles and sub-categories now. Owen Fraser-Green (talk) 07:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks I've also done a cleanout now! Best. --Kleinzach (talk) 08:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Template/Infobox again?
There's now a Template:Classical composer which is being added as an infobox to various pages. I'm guessing that consensus hasn't shifted on the no infoboxes on composers issue? Just wanted to check here. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 22:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No the guideline here about bio-infoboxes hasn't changed. The Template:Classical composer was made by Marcus2 who has added it to Claudio Monteverdi, Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina, Hildegard of Bingen, Giovanni Gabrieli, Gilles Binchois, Guillaume Dufay and John Dunstaple. --Kleinzach (talk) 00:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC) I've now written to Marcus2. --Kleinzach (talk) 00:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Marcus2 has now removed the infoboxes. --Kleinzach (talk) 23:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Template:Classical composer has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — RobertG &#9836; talk 06:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Would it be possible to point me to the place(s) where the consensus was reached? I'm interested in what the reasons were, and would want to reassure people that this isn't the start of some challenge to the consensus at all: The current one seems to work well, and I think most articles that fall within this project's scope look fine without an infobox. (I wonder whether a pointer to them in the TfD entry might be useful, as well?) Many thanks. DDStretch   (talk)  11:28, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infobox debate linked from the archives above. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 15:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ooops! Thanks for the self-restraint you showed when pointing out my silliness in not noticing the link: I don't know how I missed that one, though it was probably rank carelessness on my part! My apologies.  DDStretch    (talk)  20:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No self-restraint needed! I've missed 100x more obvious links, myself!  -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 21:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Needed articles
If anyone can find the time to create Hungarian Radio Choir and Budapest Symphony Orchestra, I would be eternaly grateful :) ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ (Ταλκ ) 04:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * These would be covered by Classical music not this project. Best. --Kleinzach (talk) 00:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)