Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Archive 28

Help! Unreferenced BLPs/approx. 130 still to be checked
Smerus and I have now saved from sharks (or thrown overboard) about 30 of some 160-odd unreferenced biographies, see here. It would be great if we could have some help! -- Klein zach  01:40, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Great work! I'm a little tied up (as you know) but I can break off if you are struggling?  I have created a specific listing for CTM, BTW: WikiProject Contemporary music/Articles with issues.  I'm off to bed soon but I can have a go at some of these tomorrow if you need me.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:54, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, we are struggling. -- Klein zach  02:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My internet connection went down for a couple of hours there: I was about to forgo bed and help out! I'll help tommorrow as I really must go to bed now.  BTW, the catscan for the CTM articles went from 104 last night to 93 tonight then to 90 a little later (my list above) then to 83 a few hours later still.  The updates are quite frequent it seems so the scans are quite accurate and useful.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  03:43, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah nuts... I couldn't sleep so I went ahead and did a few: see the CTM listing. --Jubilee♫ clipman  04:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Um... I just realised: shouldn't all 160 of those you're working on be bannered as CTM? Presumeably, a BLP of a composer would make that composer "Contemporary" since they are by definition alive and must have written music "within the past 50 years or so"?  Thoughts?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  04:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I've ticked a load of these off at WikiProject Contemporary music/Articles with issues: you might need to verify and tick your list off as well. Cacilda Borges Barbosa remains unsourced, however, and I suspect she is totally NN. I certainly can't verify anything in the article using the usual methods... AfD? --Jubilee♫ clipman 11:17, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Have now coordinated our lists. Robert Ghillies is not actually bannered for this project, but I only found one minor reference anyway.  I have asked for citations for the rest which is now hidden by the template: look at the edit.  He is tagged NN etc etc so probably an AfD.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  11:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: The article is almost completely copypasted from the website of the Scottish Music Centre (click Full biography).--Vejvančický (talk) 12:43, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well spotted! Text now blanked and notified to WP:CP and contributor of copyvio (actually the very first edit on page).  This might just be a CSD, given the lack of any sources.  I pointed that out on the CP page.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  13:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Robert Ghillies seems an odd case. If he's a Scotish composer of any note, I would have expected to know about him (the contemporary music scene in Scotland is small enough that we pretty much all know each other), but I don't think I have come across his name.  And yet he has a page on the SMIC website as you have spotted.  The only other hint at notability I could find was this site, which claims he had a piece on BBC Radio 3 in 2002.  I don't think a single broadcast necessarily indicates notability.  Do you think the  who created the article might be Mr Ghillies himself?  As for Cacilda Borges Barbosa, wasn't this one prematurely saved from a previous AfD?  --Deskford (talk) 19:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah yes, Articles for deletion/Cacilda Borges Barbosa. My vote last time was a weak keep if sources could be found, based on the size of the Portuguese article, but other respected editors felt strongly in favour of keeping.  I guess if she's in New Grove that satisfies our criteria, though I can't find any promising sources online.  --Deskford (talk) 19:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not a topic for basic Google Search. Google Books result is more interesting. I've learned my first Portuguese words: maestrina and compositora :) --Vejvančický (talk) 00:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

What do they mean then? :P Yes Barbosa was AfDed by me at the beginning of my list checking...  I got beaten up if you remember! Which is sort of funny now with all the mass deletions of uBLPs and so on... anyway I degress. I tried everything I could think of on Barbosa and even the AfD itself failed to reference her despite all the claims of notability etc etc. I note that Antandrus didn't actually add the New Grove ref, BTW, he merely claimed its existance. Adding that really would be something. Anyway enough of sour grapes! Vejvančický's Portuguese stuff is useful enough, anyway. --Jubilee♫ clipman 02:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC) BTW, no I think might be Ghillies' son: look carefully and click...  It was all added en bloc and has never been changed since, BTW, beyond adding then moving the list of compositions and (very) minor cleanup: first edit to that just before I added the refs and tagged the copyvio etc... --Jubilee♫ clipman 02:43, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if we can cite a reference work based on its appearance on the Amazon "Inside this Book" facility, but this does show Cacilda Campos Borges Barbosa to appear in the Norton/Grove Dictionary of Woman Composers. And yes, Gillies (son) does appear to be called Sideburnsbob on YouTube!  --Deskford (talk) 12:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Especially given that the facility in this case is locked to all but registered users of Amazon... I am registered with them already and found the ref no problem.  I have simply added the actual info for the NGDWC article to Barbosa's WP article rather than add the Amazon link.  Good detection!  The other issue: it is almost certain to be the son then that created the Ghilles article. --Jubilee♫ clipman  21:27, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The work is now finished - thanks to the work done by Smerus, Jubileeclipman, Deskford and Vejvančický. Unless anyone wants to keep it, I will remove the list from WikiProject Composers/Composers. -- Klein zach  23:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Different CatScan results
I note this and this give subtly different results. The second has had "Composers" removed from the Categories box, returning slightly more names. Is this significant? --Jubilee♫ clipman 20:01, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 75 versus 79. That means there must be four that have the Composers project template, but are not actually in any sub-category of Category:Composers.  --Deskford (talk) 20:06, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ... namely Gwilym Simcock, Lev Konov, Nina Cassian and Pete Turner (musician). I've added categories to Simcock and Konov, and removed the template from Cassian and Turner as they don't seem to belong to the Composers project.  Once the catscan catches up (it sometimes takes a few hours, apparently), the two scans should now match.  --Deskford (talk) 20:30, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was as I thought. I've done more research using CatScan: see the CTM talkpage.  Thoughts over there for now unless this project needs to be brought up to speed, too.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  22:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Roy Douglas
This article, though in existance since 2006, was completely unreferenced and wasn't even bannered as CTM or Composers. I spotted it in a comparision of scans using CatScan and immediately marked it up (with others) on the CTM subpage and bannered it as CTM, later adding Composers. Given that he worked with numerous important composers, especially RVW, this was a lucky find. If the deletionists have their way, this would have vanished... I have extensively sourced this but I am sure there are far more RSs to find. It could do with full inline citations and a little bit of overhaul. Amazingly, Douglas really is still alive at 102. Pure gold. --Jubilee♫ clipman 10:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bother and blast... The article is a rip off from the Music Web profile and will need to be completely rewritten... I can have a go when I get time: I just hope no one else notices in the meantime.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  10:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Tagged Close-paraphrase. I just hope that allays any attempts to speedy it.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  10:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I never noticed until now: the author of the WP article is the highly trustworthy and reliable  I can't figure this out at all...  Did the other site pinch our stuff and falsify the copyright info, or what?  Comments on the talkpge, please.  Thanks.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * After my recent CSD experience (see the CTM talkpage), I decided to reword some of this. I'll sort it out further bit by bit.  It probably has to be completely rewritten to tell the truth...  --Jubilee♫ clipman  05:33, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

BTW, where is everyone?? --Jubilee♫ clipman 05:35, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It was less than 24 hours from your starting the thread to yur osting this. Given the age of the article it might have been in JoOs early days before he knew better. Perhaps he could be approached to review some of his early contributions himself.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I suspect you're right about JoOz and this article. I have left a message for him on his talk page. Regarding my (flippant) comment: it had actually been 40 hours before anyone at all commented on this talk page besides me. Indeed, it was 43 hours before Deskford's comments that anyone else commented: that's 83 hours without comment from anyone other than Deskford or me.  I thought I was being sent to Co n ventry—here and at CTM! Anyway, the comment was made in jest: you're all getting on with some serious editing out there... --Jubilee♫ clipman  16:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

AfD of Oscar van Dillen

 * Articles for deletion/Oscar van Dillen (2nd nomination)

Note that he is an important Wikipedian and the previous AfD was closed with a comment that RSs need to added to the articles. These were not provided and I have completely failed to come up with anything after nearly 3 hours of searching. Kleinzach has added an EL to a Cybele recording of one of his records but the article remains unsourced to date. --Jubilee♫ clipman 01:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLP composers bannered by the Composers Project and other issues

 * Anđelko Klobučar Two sentence stub
 * Avgust Ipavec Two sentence stub
 * Birgitte Alsted
 * César de Oliveira but unsourced → refimprove
 * Hans-Ola Ericsson
 * Heinz Chur
 * Ilija Pejovski Prod
 * Janez Matičič Three sentence stub
 * Jay Alan Yim
 * Jean-Marie Kieffer One sentence stub (which "incorporates information from the equivalent article on the Luxembourgish Wikipedia"!)
 * Jeffrey Fayman moved to both WP Rock and WP Film.
 * Johny Fritz One sentence stub (which also "incorporates information from the equivalent article on the Luxembourgish Wikipedia"...)
 * Julien Hoffmann Two sentence stub (which also "incorporates information from the equivalent article on the Luxembourgish Wikipedia": there's a pattern here...)
 * Lev Konov
 * Lotte Anker Two sentence stub (Danish WP this time)
 * Marco Schädler Two sentence stub (German...)
 * Marek Biliński Speedied for Copyvio
 * Michael Kohler (musician) unsourced → refimprove and removed biobox
 * Michalis Koumbios Suspicious...
 * Paul Dahm Here we go again
 * Pierre Cao And again
 * Ralph Siegel Eurovision songwriter This one was removed from our banners/cats by Smerus, but reverted by Eurosong. I've removed them again. -- Klein zach  02:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC) composer → songwriter --Jubilee♫ clipman 02:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Rihards Dubra
 * Tom Bimmermann One sentence stub. NB:!
 * Vasco Mendonça Prod
 * Vincent Berthier de Lioncourt slighly longer stub from France.
 * Vincent de Jesus He's a lot of things but I'm not sure he's ours... Film?/Yes, now moved to Films
 * Walter Civitareale One sentence stub

We need to review the above list created at 8:20 this morning: some of these names appear to have been crossed off the list on the subpage while others are not on the page at all. I removed the composer cat from Deepak Dev just now after I ran the "Unreferenced BLP 21st-century classical composers" scan found on the CTM talkpage and found him still there. I suspect the cats/banners have not been sorted on these others. The huge lists generated by the first two scan sneed to be reviewed too, however: many will be genuine composer not properly bannered and others will be non-composers miscatted. I hope all the genuine composers were checked for the CTM banner? If not, we need to review the entire list and banner them all! --Jubilee♫ clipman 08:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * BTW, the list is the same with or without "composers" in the categories field, so that issue has been resolved. --Jubilee♫ clipman  08:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have ticked the ones still (and correctly) flagged up by the scan for CTM unrefed BLPs. They are all prodded or flagged for other issues, except Yim who might actually be notable for educating a notable composer, Mark Engebretson (no WP article on Mark Engebretson), but that remains to be seen.  There is also one Joel Garten I have also prodded who is not listed above because he is an improviser rather than a composer.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  08:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of these are very short stubs which I don't think are worth bothering with (see my annotations above). -- Klein zach  00:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Some have already been dealt with, too, mind, so those need to be ticked off.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  02:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

That only leaves about four worth bothering with I think! Great! --Jubilee♫ clipman 02:44, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Make that one or two... --Jubilee♫ clipman 03:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Now done. Do we care about the stubs?  Should we just prod them or simply unbanner them and forget?  The problem with th latter is that someone else could come along and rebanner.  Also, some of them might really be notable...  Thoughts?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  17:25, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe just leave the stubs as they are? Obviously we don't prod articles because they are minimal stubs, but neither are they worth saving. (As a reader I get irritated if I search for Umberto Cesari and I find a one-line wiki article saying "Umberto Cesari was an Italian composer", so I don't think they are worth saving.) They probably should be accurately bannered. -- Klein zach  07:19, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. Banner the stubs and get on with better things.  (It's better than "Umberto Cesari is a composer", though, you'll admit.  I have seen a few of those in my time...)  --Jubilee♫ clipman  14:14, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Categories
Is there any special reason why Canadian composers are subcategorised as Canadian songwriters, Category:Canadian songwriters? This confuses the results enormously when using CatScan! --Jubilee♫ clipman 10:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I've just fixed this. We'll see whether someone changes it back. -- Klein zach  11:03, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Klein: I thought I was going mad! However, "Canadian musical groups" is catted there too! It contains "Canadian orchestras" and a whole host of other non-songwriters. The whole of Category:Canadian songwriters is a mess in fact. There are a load of names strewn over the category that really should be in a subcategory, for a start. --Jubilee♫ clipman 11:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I was going to attempt to fix this myself but can't for the life of me figure out how I do it. Are the categories listed in the edit the higher categories? How do I tell which one to remove if so? --Jubilee♫ clipman 11:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Lower cats are tagged as members of categories just like articles are. So you change a cat's position in the heirarchy through editing that cat. Obviously if your're reoeating a change over many parts of the structure then a bot may be the way to go.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah! I get it, now.  Thanks Peter!  The bit after the pipe is a sort key.  I just found the help page as you wrote this, though that is rather confusing at times so you just clarified what it was meaning to say.  I can sort this out now if I haven't been beaten to it!  --Jubilee♫ clipman  11:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorted: I removed both entries that were for "musical groups". A group by definition is not "a songwriter".  --Jubilee♫ clipman  11:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

A deleted CP listed article
I noted this just now while checking on the aricles I nomed recently:


 * Anthony Kershaw (famous musician) ([ history] · [ last edit]) from http://www.audiophilia.com/wp/?page_id=2. Site has CC-By-NC 3.0 licence, according to FAQ/Copyright this is not compatible with Wikipedia. snigbrook (talk) 18:25, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I just wondered if the subject was notable enough for us to create a new article at Anthony Kershaw (musician). I supose we should make sure it's well sourced, if so! --Jubilee♫ clipman 05:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Still a little to do
We are more or less finished with the unref'ed BLPs, now. However, I just noticed that some of the articles highlighed on this talkpage are still unref'ed: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Composers contains a few that still need checking/unbannering/uncatting/sourcing or commenting out of that list. I'll have a go tommorow: I'm taking a break for now and Kleinzach has done almost 120 singlehandedly, if my maths is correct. --Jubilee♫ clipman 23:27, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In reply to Kleinzach's comment (some way above): yes the list of sourced artices can go. We might need to retain the unsourced/PROD/etc so we can keep an eye on them.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  17:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

"Projectification"
Further to Okip's comments on the CTM talkpage, I would like to alert the project to the proposals he has been coordinating. The main result is that we have a new process called Projectification, very similar to WP:Userfication but operatated by admins. A new unreferenced BLP will be moved to a subpage of the brand new project called WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons by an admin using Twinkle for Admins 6 hours after creation and the redirect speedy deleted. The article will sit there for 7 days and will then be deleted if no sources are added. The idea is still in development and yet to be proposed to the wider community. However, the project is up and running, processing several uBLPs by hand. The full discussion is in Okip's user space but participation is by invitation only : User:Ikip/Discussion about creation of possible Wikiproject:New Users and BLPs. --Jubilee♫ clipman 01:13, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In fact, participation in Okip's proposal discussions is open to all. Comments/ideas/proposals etc welcome!  (Link immeadiately above.)  Don't forget the RfC, too, which is now in its second stage: Requests_for_comment/Biographies_of_living_people/Phase_II.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  14:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

PRODS

 * David B. Doty created by mind, one very highly respected editor.  Let's see what he comes up with.
 * Deprodded - I refined the search terms to find out if he was a notable theorist and the results suggest strongly that he is. --Jubilee♫ clipman  19:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Daniel Dutton created by ... Yes, well.
 * Note changed to AfD after Peter Cohen's timely intervention - Articles for deletion/Daniel Dutton --Jubilee♫ clipman  19:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Withdrawn and closed --Jubilee♫ clipman  03:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

These are both remnants from the mass sourcing expedition we've all just returned from. Don't suppose many here care if these go... --Jubilee♫ clipman 16:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Four others I forgot about. --Jubilee♫ clipman 14:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Heinz Chur
 * Lev Konov (from CTM) - quick online search for Russian "Лев Конов" reveals more, I've added his profile at www.russiancomposers.org, and I found also an article CHILDREN'S OPERA IN THE CONTEXT OF CONTEMPORARY MUSIC CULTURE at the website of Ukrainian National Library. I've notified the Russian Wikiproject. --Vejvančický (talk) 15:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Deprodded - Google translate on added site seems to verify notability claims. Let's see what the Russians come up with, too.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  19:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Vasco Mendonça
 * Ilija Pejovski
 * Deprodded by IP ("He is mentioned in the Harvard dictionary of music. I think this article deserves a second chance") and citation added by Vejvančický strongly suggesting likely notability and verifiability. Anyone able to verify Harvard claim?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  19:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

And another...(!) --Jubilee♫ clipman  14:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Mall'd Vydinac

BTW, Robert Ghillies just went red... --Jubilee♫ clipman 20:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Done
Most of the above have been sourced or have expired. Some of the latter have now been deleted, others await a passing admin. Only Dutton has been sent to AfD and awaits comments from editors. (Withdrawn) --Jubilee♫ clipman 19:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

AfD of Oscar van Dillen withdrawn

 * Articles for deletion/Oscar van Dillen (2nd nomination)
 * --Jubilee♫ clipman 22:48, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

César de Oliveira
Comment on subpage:
 * please don't confuse with Brazilian composers Paulo César de Oliveira and Marco César de Oliveira Brito. This article was recently repeatedly deleted on Portuguese Wikipedia. No reliable sources found.

Any further thoughts on this? I added few sources but are they good enough? --Jubilee♫ clipman 20:57, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Juan Carlos Tolosa

 * Juan Carlos Tolosa

Is he notable? Unreferenced BLP composer, except for MySpace.


 * Black Jackets Company

Another article related to the above. I'm not sure what to make of this one. Should it really be in Category:Belgian composers, Category:21st-century classical composers and Category:20th-century classical composers?

--Deskford (talk) 22:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I've put it in some more relevant cats. -- Klein zach  23:06, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd PROD or AfD the former but I think I'll steer clear of those processes for a while... --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Daniel Dutton
The AfD needs further comments: Articles for deletion/Daniel Dutton. Thanks --Jubilee♫ clipman  21:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)