Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Archive 39

Category:Masonic composers
This category has just been created, but there are no citations in most of the articles included to warrant it. Moreover, is it even an appropriate topic for a category? Categorization_of_people states:
 * Categorize by those characteristics that make the person notable: Apart from a limited number of categories for standard biographical details (in particular year of birth, year of death and nationality) an article about a person should be categorized only by the reason(s) for the persons notability. For example, a film actor who holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless his or her legal career was notable in its own right.

--Smerus (talk) 15:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * This category's composers were on the basis of List of Freemasons with reliable source.YOKOTA Kuniteru (talk) 16:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * On Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music, a wikipedia user said "There's plenty of categories for Jewish composers--even for those whose "Jewishness" is only nominal. So why not Masonic (which in musicology tends to have greater weight for some composers)."YOKOTA Kuniteru (talk) 16:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You do not answer the rule set out by Categorization_of_people .--Smerus (talk) 17:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think this category meets our standard conventions, and I find it inappropriate. Looking at Irving Berlin, for example, we find a single sentence stating that he was a Mason, sourced to a now-deleted page on the NY Masons website. It offers no insight on the man or his works and frankly I find it just a piece of trivia, about on a par with the colour of his hair or the fact that he wore spectacles. It certainly has no bearing whatsoever on his notability. If this category exists, then we might as well have Category:Composers who wore spectacles. I'm tempted to send it off to WP:CfD, but I've got limited internet access for the next several days. Anybody else? --RexxS (talk) 17:50, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Of cource YOKOTA Kuniteru still didn't talk about Categorization_of_people. And you Smerus still didn't talk about List of Freemasons and a wikipedia user's talk: There's plenty of categories for Jewish composers--even for those whose "Jewishness" is only nominal. So why not Masonic (which in musicology tends to have greater weight for some composers).YOKOTA Kuniteru (talk) 18:41, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * However RexxS, it may be considered that the numbers of "those who want to know composers who were freemason" are very much more than "those who want to know composers who wore spectacles".YOKOTA Kuniteru (talk) 18:41, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Mozart was clearly a "Masonic composer" because he wrote music inspired by Masonic principles and intended for performance at meetings of Masons. But I'm not so sure about the other composers listed in this new category. If they were just incidentally Masons and their membership had nothing to do with their careers as composers, then they should not be included.  Opus33 (talk) 20:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I say "those who want to know composers who wore spectacles" is more than "those who want to know composers who were freemasons". It's trivia and your guess is no better than mine. The criterion for creating a category is not "how many people want to know it"; it's Categorize by those characteristics that make the person notable. Categories are meant to aid navigation between articles that share a notable characteristic; and while "People who were notable for being Freemasons" might be a possible category, "Composers who just happened to be Freemasons" is not. Wikipedia is not a collection of trivia. --RexxS (talk) 20:49, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've nominated the category for deletion. Categories for discussion/Log/2015 November 4 --RexxS (talk) 20:54, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * RexxS, do you really think composer's spectacles (glasses) wearing is more important for people than composer's masonic activity? For example, List of Freemasons had already been created. On the other hand, List of spectacles wearers has not been created yet. But it's no problem if you think about the composer's spectacles. (Furthermore, List of bow tie wearers had already been created.) YOKOTA Kuniteru (talk) 22:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: the Smerus' quote about Categorization_of_people is before the Revision as of 10:12, 21 September 2014 (UTC) YOKOTA Kuniteru (talk) 22:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course it's more important. Irving Berlin would have been the same composer had he not been a Mason, but he could not have composed at all without his spectacles. All of those lists are trivia, created by people with an obsession for the topic. Nobody actually uses them. And we're not discussing lists; we're discussing categories which are subject to the guideline Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality: "Do not create categories that are a cross-section of a topic with an ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, unless these characteristics are relevant to the topic." If you have good sources that state the work of a particular composer was heavily influenced by their membership of the Masons, then you can justify their inclusion in this category. But a category with only a couple of members is useless, and acts as a magnet for editors to include composers for whom there is no reliable source for being a Mason, or whose membership had no bearing at all on their work, which is misleading. --RexxS (talk) 23:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * On the latest revision of Categorization of people (22:27, 6 September 2015 UTC) – partly the same as the revision as of 10:12, 21 September 2014 UTC:


 * – maybe so far in wikipedia (English), "composers who were heavily influenced by their membership of the Masons" are "Mozart and ... who?" YOKOTA Kuniteru (talk) 00:08, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: Franz Abt, Thomas Arne, Jean Sibelius, and Samuel Wesley were categorized as freemason before YOKOTA Kuniteru's edition. YOKOTA Kuniteru (talk) 00:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

National composer
I came across this by accident. This article has no citations, except one which claims that some composers were identified as 'national' by Nazism - but looking up this source, it does not in fact describe the composers concerned as 'national' but as supposedly representing 'good German music'. I suspect the article to be WP:OR - I can't find any appropriate sources or citations for the title as an article topic. Should it be flagged for deletion?--Smerus (talk) 10:52, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Having slept on it, have started AfD discussion.--Smerus (talk) 11:06, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

List of major opera composers
This is now being discussed for deletion at Articles for deletion/List of major opera composers (2nd nomination).Smerus (talk) 15:09, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Unreferenced blp- Yáng Jìng
If anyone cares to tackle this mess of a new article, please jump in. It was created by a newbie.4meter4 (talk) 01:07, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Lord Berners
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Composers/Archive_37

Following the above discussion in 2014, Lord Berners and Michael Berkeley were moved to their common names. Berners has now been moved without discussion to Gerald Tyrwhitt, 14th Baron Berners. My feeling is still that he should be at Lord Berners; what does anyone else think? Do I need to create a formal WP:RM request? --Deskford (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It should at least be brought back for discussion. You could perhaps create the formal WP:RM request on that basis.--Smerus (talk) 16:36, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I discovered to my surprise that I was allowed to revert the move. I'll make a remark on Talk:Lord Berners so that any discussion is not lost in the archives of this project. --Deskford (talk) 20:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

William Sterndale Bennett
I am hoping to get this article up to GA/FA standard for WSB's bicentenary (April 2016) and have therefore initiated a peer review - comments would be very welcome.--Smerus (talk) 10:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Tudor Music Editathon, 5 February 2016
In about four weeks' time, Oxford University will be hosting a Wikipedia editathon on the theme of Tudor Music. The venue for the event, on the afternoon of Friday 5 February, is in Oxford's IT Services and the event is supported by the Faculty of Music and the Bodleian Libraries. Dr. Katherine Butler, an academic in the Faculty of Music, has kindly suggested a list of articles for creation or for improvement (see the above link). Many of these are composer biographies, but partbooks are another theme: Dr. Butler is impressed with the Drexel 4180–4185 article and we hope to create articles about other well-documented partbooks. I will be leading the training in my capacity as Wikimedian In Residence at the Bodleian. Feel free to improve the event page or to participate in any other way. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Request for comment
Members may wish to comment at Wikipedia talk:Notability (music). Best.4meter4 (talk) 16:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

John Duffy (composer)
I just threw together a quick article on John Duffy. Others may wish to expand. Best.4meter4 (talk) 14:27, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

William Sterndale Bennett
I have proposed Sterndale Bennett for TFA on his bicentenary (13 April); you can support (or oppose of course if you wish!) here. --Smerus (talk) 12:28, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure, supported Today's featured article/requests/William Sterndale Bennett. I was bold and expanded the blurb a bit, - 1150 characters are wanted, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:48, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gerda!--Smerus (talk) 13:10, 12 March 2016 (UTC)