Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Concerts/Archive 1

Fixing a string of problems with text and referencing
There is a discussion of problematic text not supported by references, and falsified references added by Legolas2186 to articles about songs, albums, concert tours, and to biographies. Anybody wishing to help verify sources or rework the indicated text are welcome to join the effort.

Here is the original discussion:
 * Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_4

Here is the ongoing workpage for listing problems and for listing fixes.
 * User talk:Legolas2186/Fixing citation problems

Thanks for your attention! Binksternet (talk) 18:47, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Importance rating
I noted that User:Devin added the rating to the project. But similar to WP:SONGS and WP:COUNTRIES, how we can decide if a tour is "important" or not. Of course some of them can be considered important, but as a whole, are concert tours "more important than others"? Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions.  00:09, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Do you think that it needs to be removed? Devin Davis   ( talk )  01:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)


 * If a tour is discussed as being a major influence on later tours then it would be assessed as more important. Springsteen's Born in the U.S.A. Tour is one such, where the promoter was convinced by Springsteen to spend a lot more money on the sound system. Later sound systems struggled to match the expensive rings of delay loudspeakers that were specified and tuned by Bruce Jackson (audio engineer). (Note that the tour article does not discuss this but the engineer article does, a little bit. Audio industry magazines discuss it, certainly.) Springsteen also extended the norm of performance length with his 2–2½ hour shows. Madonna and Garth Brooks changed the look of performing when they started using headset microphones during their concerts, rather than holding a microphone in their hands. (Was that around 1990?) Pink Floyd's The Wall Tour was a peak moment in bombast, and earlier they were known for introducing quad sound in a large concert, and large scale set pieces. Elvis tours in the '70s were the first ones with loudspeakers raised up high on chain hoists rather than stacked on scaffolding, and this became an additional industry standard, especially when the look was important. (Scaffolding is still used.) Paul McCartney in the '90s was the first to use a giant vertical-format video screen. Barbra Streisand's last tour was the first with tons of money spent on acoustic remedies such as thick velour drape hung all 'round the venue. U2's 360 Tour broke records on how big the rig was. Madonna has grossed the most money on a single tour. That's a start... there are a lot more ways to gauge the issue. Binksternet (talk) 01:25, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, but as I said of course some of them can be considered important, it is clear that the top-scoring concerts are important to the project, but that's the reason why I'm citing other projects: How can we decide if a song is important, or how can we say that country is more important than other? The same applies here: Why The Monster Ball Tour is more important than The Rolling Stones 1st American Tour 1965, that's my question. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it!  See terms and conditions.  20:59, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I need help for solving the dispute.
Hello!

The dispute is continually taking place between me (Lassoboy) and the user Aspects on my talk page. Now I am trying to solve this problem. The main problem is to find consensus of using the serial numbers for the concert tour dates.

All the dispute material is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lassoboy

The letter for the user Aspects is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Aspects#Arbitration

What are your thoughts of using the serial numbers for better counting and for fixing the numbering of the tour dates (for example, thanks to serial numbers I found out that Iron Maiden gave 187 concerts during the World Slavery Tour, not 193 and so on.) Thank you. Lassoboy (talk) 16:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * My main points from some of the other discussions. "Regarding the numbers, most readers want to know the locations and order of performances and do not care where the 37th performance took place and if they did they could still count down the list and figure it out." "By numbers not being on other tour articles, it can be seen that there is not a huge demand for readers wanting to count what number a certain concert was." "I do not think you have made provided any effective evidence that the numbers are needed to count the concerts and in fact whenever I counterargue your argument, you seem to give them up and then try to throw more arguments against the wall to see if any of them stick." Aspects (talk) 21:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

No, Aspects, you are not right here.

First of all, I ask you right now to present me concrete evidences that "most readers do not care where the 37th performance took place and if they did they could still count down the list and figure it out." and "By numbers not being on other tour articles, it can be seen that there is not a huge demand for readers wanting to count what number a certain concert was."

By saying "By numbers not being on other tour articles, it can be seen that there is not a huge demand for readers wanting to count what number a certain concert was." you are completely going against the wall. I can contest this argument. I can say for example, that from this argument it can be seen that the readers do not bother to write down 100+ numbers, because this acitivity is not automated and I did it manually and it took 10+ hours to write down numbers for the tour dates. I can also say that readers have not probably yet understood (in which I really doubt) the beneficial role of these numbers and if they have, then they do not want to manually write down those numbers. At least where I have written the numbers, there has been no problems with other readers/editors, except you! So, this argument of yours has different interpretations and you cannot say that yours is the only right one.

You know that Iron Maiden gave 187 concerts during the World Slavery Tour. Do you bother to count down, lets say to the 156th concert or would preferably look the numbers in front of the dates? Which one is the easier way for you and for the readers? And added to this, when there is so many concerts, there is a huge risk, that you count the numbers down by yourself wrongly. So, I am of the opinion and I stand firm to it, that the range numbers for the touring dates make it easier for the readers to find out, what is the correct order of the concerts. It is especially beneficial for the fans.

Secondly, you say that "I do not think you have made provided any effective evidence that the numbers are needed to count the concerts and in fact whenever I counterargue your argument, you seem to give them up and then try to throw more arguments against the wall to see if any of them stick."

You are not right here again, dear Aspects. What evidence are you looking for so strictly? The idea for numbering the dates is not widespread in Wikipedia. I have seen this method in Wikipedia before, but only a few times. I thought that it would be a good idea to introduce numbering the tour dates, so that the order of the concerts is more visible/understandable and you do not have to count it down to find the right range number for the concrete concert. Is this a good evidence enough for you now, dear Aspects? I have no more evidences and my hopes are purely standing on a "benevolence pillar", which for me means that all the new ideas which are brought to Wikipedia and which are not violating the Wikipedia basic principles and state laws, are acceptable. Now, if You are going to fight against my idea of numbering the dates and this idea is not malicious in any way, what should I think? At present I think that I have wasted about 10+ hours of my life for Wikipedia for nothing, and I think that I am starting to leave Wikipedia, because it seems to me that my efforts to make articles better, are not appreciated at all. I understand that articles are needed to be renewed especially with the new and sourced content, but I also think that the articles are needed to be renewed techincally (for example, by bringing the numbers in front of the dates on touring pages).

Thirdly, I have not given up my basic arguments while I am arguing, so there is no reason for such opinion and it does not make any sense.

And added to this, you said on ANI page that "especially since he asked for an arbitrator and could not even wait for that arbitrator to respond before starting a discussion here." I waited and Koavf said that he is not really equipped to mediate or arbitrate here. So, I take it as a refusal to be the arbitrator in between us and I am looking for another one, if I am going to need that later.

Now I am waiting for your reply. And do not write to me that "There have been no needs put forth from other editors that the numbers help improve the articles.", because I need to find supporters to show you that my edits are useful for everybody. Lassoboy (talk) 11:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

So, can anybody help us to solve the problem?? You can find the examples of numbering the dates here:


 * World Slavery Tour
 * Iron Maiden Tour
 * Killer World Tour
 * The Beast on the Road
 * World Piece Tour
 * Somewhere on Tour
 * 7th Tour of a 7th Tour
 * No Prayer on the Road
 * Fear of the Dark Tour
 * Real Live Tour
 * Somewhere Back in Time World Tour
 * Bad World Tour
 * Destiny Tour

Now you can have a better look of how numbering the tour dates improve the reading of the tour dates, make the table visually better and the readers can easily find the right range numbers for the concerts. Thank you. Lassoboy (talk) 12:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello again, dear administrators, editors and readers of Wikipedia!

I would present to you some positive aspects of numbering the tour dates:


 * First of all, the readers can now easily find the right range number for the wanted concert date.
 * Secondly, numbering the tour dates can give editors best possible opportunity to control, whether the total number of the tour dates is completely correct or not. For example, I found out that Iron Maiden did not give 193 concerts during the World Slavery Tour, but 187 concerts. It is not probably important for the usual readers, but especially for the fans, and we all would like that Wikipedia would have the articles with the right and controlled facts.
 * Thirdly, numbering the tour dates make the tables visually better look. I do not know about you, but it makes a wide smile on my face to see the range numbers in front of the tour dates.
 * Added to this, technically we all (the administrators/editors) sometimes need to think out the new ways of improving the Wikipedia articles. This is the main key for improving Wikipedia. So, we all should want that Wikipedia would develop all the time, shouldn`t we?

So, my main points are presented above and I wish that these aspects would be taken into account, when making the final decision of whether editors should use voluntarily range numbers in front of the tour dates in the future or not. Thank you! Lassoboy (talk) 14:25, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think we should number tours. The tour people do not do it, the media do not do it, and the concertgoers do not do it. It's an artificial addition useful for some purposes, sure, but it is not our responsibility to impose it. Binksternet (talk) 14:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your kind opinion. I do not try to impose this method for everybody. I just try to get the rights to number the dates VOLUNTARILY (and every editor then could do that, if they want) and not to be afraid that some other editor would then revert my edits all the time back and say that I have not the rights to do the edits I would like to do. My edits are not malicious. I am of the opinion that it does not matter, if the tour people or the media or the concertgoers (although fans does it quite often) number the tour dates or not. By adding the numbers in front of the dates, we would not take any responsibilities, which would be binding on the administrators or editors. It would just be an optional choice for everyone. Thank you. Lassoboy (talk) 15:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Point by point 1) You have provided no evidence that readers want to know what number concert a certain concert was in order. Most readers want to know the date and location of the concert, hence this basic information can be found in most every concert tour article.  What is not in most concert tours are the numbers, which shows that there is not a huge demand for readers wanting to count what number a certain concert was. 2) The difference in numbers in the World Slavery Tour is that the number originally counted all concerts scheduled and that removing the cancelled concerts, you get the resulting number you came up with.  This is a difference in opinion of how the number of concerts should be listed, some listed cancellations behind in parentheses, and those differences would not be solved by adding the numbers.  3) This point seems to be WP:ILIKEIT, and not a valid argument since to me it looks pointless and unnecessary.  4) This is not an argument about this particular issue, but editing Wikipedia in general.  Anyone can be WP:BOLD, but anyone should also be expected that they will be reverted. Aspects (talk) 16:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Point by point from me: 1) You have also not provided me any waterproof evidence that readers do not want to know what number concert a certain concert was in order. It seems to me that you and only you do not like the idea of using these numbers somehow. By pointing out that there are no numbers in front of the dates in most concert tour articles you cannot say that there are no need for these numbers. You cannot say that the lack of use of the numbers means lack of demand. You have not given me any strong evidences for this conclusion of yours. I could argue against and say that if there was missing some NOT SO widespread information in some Wikipedia article and nobody could find it and write it into this article, let`s say, for 5 years, and this information is found by someone and written into this article, and now You come and say: "Hey, Why did you write this information there, it is not an important information, I think that I know better what information is necessary and what is not!" and then kindly revert his/her edits back. This is not right. I know that this argument was more about the content of the artcles, but it would also support my idea of improving the articles (tables, for example) technically. 2) Yes, there are different ways of writing the articles, but in this article (World Slavery Tour) I did the main job, took out the cancelled dates and listed them below the table and counted the played dates. And by the way, this argument of yours do not belong into this discussion really, because it is not related to the "number discussion". It rather deals with the structure of the article/table and even the content of the article, not numbers. It also rather deals with the past situation or even theoretical situation and is therefore invalid. The fact is that I have reconstructed the tables and now want to add numbers for the better use of the article (or table). 3) Yes, this point is related to WP:ILIKEIT, but this does not make my argument invalid, because I think that Wikipedia articles in general should be easily used (and mostly they are easy to use), but I thought that my edits would make the concert articles MORE easy to use. 4) And you also said that "Anyone can be WP:BOLD, but anyone should also be expected that they will be reverted.". I understand this very well, but if YOU all the time revert back my edits (you even reverted back my edits concerning the references for the cancelled dangerous tour dates, which were not connected to the number discussion and were correct) and continually demand consensus or whatever, then I think you have something against me or my style and I have to protect myself somehow, because my edits are useful. I know I am not experienced, but it takes time and I do not sit here 24/7. Thank you. Lassoboy (talk) 18:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm a professional audio engineer in live sound. I have worked on concert tour dates. I have a strong concern that the notional numbering system would vary by who is looking at the data. A tour promoter who sets up a concert only to have the show canceled at the last minute is going to call it a tour date because of payments and obligations. The riggers and lighting people and audio people and staging people and video people and costuming people and merchandising people will all think of that date as one of a series, but none of the concertgoers will. What if a canceled show is famous or notable, maybe because of an equipment failure and death? Do you number that show even though there was no performance? On the other hand, the famous performer on tour who slots in a surprise appearance after hours at a local club... does that get a number? The tour promoter and most of the concert tour workers had no part in it, though perhaps it was supported by some of the audio team and possibly recorded. I think this idea of a numbering system will prove far more trouble than it is worth to the reader. Binksternet (talk) 16:46, 14 August 2012 (UTC)




 * "A tour promoter who sets up a concert only to have the show canceled at the last minute is going to call it a tour date because of payments and obligations. The riggers and lighting people and audio people and staging people and video people and costuming people and merchandising people will all think of that date as one of a series, but none of the concertgoers will."
 * I agree with that. It all makes perfect sense. No argument there.


 * "What if a canceled show is famous or notable, maybe because of an equipment failure and death? Do you number that show even though there was no performance?"
 * Well, I have seen plenty of tour articles here, and I can say that there are not many articles, where cancelled concert is notable for equipment failure or deaths. In this case, I can rebuild the article (tables) and add those notable cancelled concerts under the tables and mention there why these cancelled concerts were famous for. I would definitely not count these notable CANCELLED performances as PLAYED performances. I would count them as CANCELLED performances in another section of the article. Because technically no show took place. And I would not number different incidents as shows (if no show took place), because these would not belong into the PLAYED shows list. They are basically cancelled shows, which go under the "cancelled dates" section. You can see this strategy in some of the articles I have helped to design (Bad tour, Dangerous tour, History tour).


 * "On the other hand, the famous performer on tour who slots in a surprise appearance after hours at a local club... does that get a number?"
 * Yes it definitely gets a number, because we can count it as a tour performance. See, for example:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones_American_Tour_1981 (The first date is a club date and this is not written by me.)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Wheels/Urban_Jungle_Tour (The first date is a club date.)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDNA_Tour (Paris, L'Olympia club performance in middle of the tour.)


 * And so on... I would count them as tour performances, because these are basically warm-up shows for the tour and therefore closely connected to the tour. It is a matter of interpretation.


 * "The tour promoter and most of the concert tour workers had no part in it, though perhaps it was supported by some of the audio team and possibly recorded. I think this idea of a numbering system will prove far more trouble than it is worth to the reader."
 * How this system does prove far more trouble than benefit? I have always thought that the Wikipedia reader is usually an average person and not some specialist. And this system is beneficial for the average readers, because it makse it easier for them to interpret the article as a whole. And even if some specialist read these articles, then, hey! he/she is then the specialist and these numbers should not confuse them.


 * So, in conclusion I would say that the cancelled concerts (no matter what the reason was) would go into separate section and would not be counted as the played shows and all the played shows (I mean fully played shows. I does not matter if there were 20 or 5 songs, if the concert went on as planned.) would be listed and numbered as played shows (even if there was a club date or two). Another problem would pop out, when the show went on as planned, but then after the 2-3 songs the show was cancelled because of very bad weather. Then I would count it as cancelled performance and not as played performance. Thank you. Lassoboy (talk) 18:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Lassoboy: I don't believe that introducing numbers for tour dates will be a benefit to the encyclopedia, and I want to address your specific points.
 * 0. You asked how this system does prove far more trouble than benefit. I think it is already clear: you're now having to formulate rules about what to do in the case of cancelled concerts, etc. That is introducing complexity for a proposal that already has unclear value.
 * 1. the readers can now easily find the right range number for the wanted concert date. This has been discussed above, but this is not a demonstrated problem. It is not up to everyone else to prove that it is not a problem, it is up to you to prove that it is a problem.
 * 2. To your point about numbering and mistakes: there are many more ways to solve the same problem beyond adding numbers to the page. For example, you can copy the table into a spreadsheet and count there, which by the way is even less error prone than relying on numbers on a page.
 * 3. Your point about the visually better look is merely your opinion. I don't see a lot of support for it here.
 * 4. Regarding new ways to improve articles: I agree that we should always look for improvements. But adding things that have unclear value to readers is not necessarily an improvement. Removing things can also be an improvement if doing so increases readability, reduces the amount of clutter on the page, and so on.

Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 19:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Orange Suede Sofa: May be I did not express my vision correctly above, but I believe that introducing numbers for tour dates would be a benefit not for the whole encyclopedia, but only for the tour articles as a whole and therefore they are benefit for the part of the encylopedia. And hereby I would like to object to your arguments a little bit (English is not my native language, so I am sorry for the possible grammar mistakes.):


 * 0. No, I am not having to formulate new rules about what to do in the case of cancelled concerts, etc., because we do not need these new rules at all (I mean the editors do not need it at all). Every editor can (and has always been) use his/her own vision how to edit certain articles. Now, as you probably have already seen above, I have already listed the cancelled and rescheduled dates below the concert tour tables under its own section in some of the articles. It is useful for the readers and for the editors and I did not create new rules for this operation, because I do not see the necessity for the new rules. I am using just my own common sense for these operations. And by the way, the main problem here is not at all in this where and how to place the cancelled dates etc, but numbering the tour dates and this does not affect the desingning of the cancelled dates section, because this is a separate issue and can be dealt without separate discussions at the moment, because this issue does not seem to be a problem between the editors at all right now.


 * 1. You said that "It is not up to everyone else to prove that it is not a problem, it is up to you to prove that it is a problem." Yes, this is a problem for me! But how can I prove it for you and for everybody else? Can`t you and everybody else just use your common sense and see that it is much more better for the readers and especially for the fans to see the numbers in front of the dates to count the concert dates without counting by themselves? I do not know how else could I prove this matter for you and for everybody else. I am a fan of both Iron Maiden and Michael Jackson and I am also very interested in concert tour articles and I see that the numbers are needed for these articles. If anybody else could not see this, why should I be the scapegoat here? Nobody has proved to me that my mission to introduce numbers is completely unencessary action, so right here and right now I am still of the opinion that the numbers are useful for the concert tour articles.


 * 2. But why should I copy the table into a spreadsheet and count there, if I could read the numbers in Wikipedia article and do no counting at all, because the concert dates have already been counted for me and there are numbers to see and read?? And your arguments about less error prone is a bit invalid, because the errors depend on the facts already listed on the article by previous editors. These facts should be examined before doing any counting at all. And I have always done hard work to control the facts and dates before numbering them.


 * 3.Yes, it is purely my opinion. Does anyone agree with this opinion?? LOL


 * 4. I think then that we both agree that we should always look for improvements. But how can you say that the numbers here have unclear value to readers? Have you got any strong and waterproof evidence to present for me? I can hereby say that the value of the numbers for the readers would be guite good, because these numbers increases readability of the concert dates and tables, reduces the amount of clutter on the page concerning the tour dates and so on... Thats my opinion here. Regards, Lassoboy (talk) 18:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with Orange Suede Sofa on this one. I don't think that that introducing numbers for tour dates is unnecessary. The dates (July 23, 2010 to September 10, 2011, for example) are already in chronological order so numerical order is not needed. Devin ( talk ) 04:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Your answer here is a little bit messy, but I can say that the dates (July 23, 2010 to September 10, 2011, for example) are not already in numerical order, because if you think that they are, then we have different understanding about the concept of "numerical order". For me this means that all the concert dates are numbered by numbers and I and everybody else could see the numbered dates and do not have to count these concert dates by themselves. I also understand your view towards this concept. You probably understand this as a chronological order and this order is presented in every concert tour article, because without this method these articles would be in utter mess. Thank you. Lassoboy (talk) 18:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Looks like Lassoboy has not found a single supporter for the widespread adoption of sequential numbers assigned to concert dates within tours. Aspects, Binksternet, Orange Suede Sofa and Devin have expressed the view that no such numbers are needed. This is not an avalanche of response but it is sufficient to establish a consensus. I will begin changing back the articles that have had numbers added to them. Binksternet (talk) 18:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I think you should wait a little bit, because the discussion has not ended yet and it may continue for more days or even weeks. My mission is not to find supporters but to make people understand the benefits of sequential numbers assigned to concert dates within tours. And by the way, I do not try to make these numbers for widespread adoption, but it is fine for me to use these numbers only by myself. But in this case I would like to be sure that Aspects will not therefore revert my edits, because only he seems to have the direct problem with those numbers. Lassoboy (talk) 12:53, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * After two months with no further discussion, I am going to revert the numbers per consensus found here. I thought I would allow more time to see if anyone would come forward to support Lassoboy's position and since he does not seem to want me to make the changes, I was hoping someone else would have reverted them.  But since that has not yet happened and a consensus was formed here, they should be removed. Aspects (talk) 18:21, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

World tour of Michael Jackson in support of Bad album
Please go to Talk:Bad_World_Tour and offer your thoughts.

Should the article be called:
 * Bad World Tour
 * Bad world tour
 * Bad (world tour)
 * Bad Tour
 * Bad tour
 * Bad (tour)

This could have implications at other tour articles, affecting the naming process. Binksternet (talk) 21:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Naming, formatting and capitalization standards for concert tours, songs
WikiProject Concert Tours needs to be determined. If a consensus can be achieved, perhaps it can be more formally implemented in a new section of Naming conventions (music). There are a number of separate requests at Requested moves, which, if a consensus on naming conventions can be had, might better be handled at WP:RM with a multiple moves request: —Wbm1058 (talk) 15:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * (Discuss) – List of Chrisye songs → List of songs recorded by Chrisye
 * (Discuss) – List of Shakira songs → List of songs recorded by Shakira
 * (Discuss) – List of Frank Sinatra songs → List of songs recorded by Frank Sinatra
 * (Discuss) – List of Rihanna songs → List of songs recorded by Rihanna
 * (Discuss) – List of Leona Lewis songs → List of songs recorded by Leona Lewis
 * (Discuss) – List of Harry Connick, Jr. songs → List of songs recorded by Harry Connick, Jr.
 * (Discuss) – List of Perry Como songs → List of songs recorded by Perry Como
 * (Discuss) – List of songs recorded by Elvis Presley → List of Elvis Presley songs
 * (Discuss) – List of songs recorded by Jennifer Lopez → List of Jennifer Lopez songs
 * (Discuss) – Template:Madonna songs → Template:Madonna singles

Vital articles
There is a discussion occuring here regarding which music articles should be deemed vital to the Wikipedia project. Your input would be appreciated. GabeMc (talk&#124;contribs)  22:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

2012 tour of She Has a Name
2012 tour of She Has a Name is currently up for a Good Article Nomination and the reviewer has requested an independent copyedit. If anyone who has not had previous involvement with the article would be willing to perform such a copyedit, it would be greatly appreciated. Neelix (talk) 19:05, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

List of Cities and Venues
Can someone write in what the guidelines for the cities visited on the tour, and whether the state/province/prefecture should be mentioned (e.g. Dallas, TX instead of Dallas)? -AngusWOOF (talk) 00:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a discussion on the Village Pump (I believe it's under misc) about this, actually. kikichugirl inquire 18:27, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Cities in "Shows" section
Are we going with "metropolitan areas" or plain old cities? For example, if there's a concert at Barclays Arena, is that "New York City" or "Brooklyn"? If someone performs at Cowboys Stadium, is that at "Dallas" or "Arlington"? If there's a tour stop at Stade de France, is that in "Paris" or "Saint-Denis"? I even argued with someone that insisted that "Saitama Super Arena" is in Tokyo!

The reason I'm asking this is that the concert tours articles are inconsistent when it comes to places. The sports WikiProjects (actually, the individual WikiProjects related to sports) got this right when going with the "city" when it comes to which place it links to, with footnotes if needed. For example List of Super Bowl champions uses "Miami Gardens", "Pontiac" and "Pasadena", whenever it is appropriate. If possible, we should emulate that, or stick with metropolitan areas (and linking to metropolitan area articles). – H T  D  13:48, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Articles about upcoming tours
I nominated for speedy deletion the Anything Goes Tour. All the dates are in the future, and it seems like blatant advertising. The project page (here) seems to indicate that concert tours are only notable after they have happened. What's the policy? Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:46, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Pollstar or Billboard
Guys which do you think is better for using the total gross for concert tours? There is discrepancy of 5 million between the boxscore reported by Pollstar and Billboard for Gaga's ArtRave: The Artpop Ball tour. One user was adding the greater gross as reported by Pollstar, although I have reverted thinking that Pollstar might not be that official. But I could be wrong. So asking here. — Indian: BIO  [ ChitChat  ] 13:31, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Policy on upcoming tours
I'd like to know the policy on upcoming tours. We're getting a glut of articles created for Korean pop tours the instant they are announced, often a month or more before they begin. One commenter on an AFD of one of the article said that it should be kept simply because it was a waste of time to delete it and have it be recreated again. Is this the kind of thing that should be taken into account when nominating articles for AFD? What exactly is the prevailing view on creating articles for tours that haven't happened yet, especially since they have virtually no independent sources? I'm happy to go with whatever the norm is. Thanks! :)
 * Hi there. I asked the same question about a week ago.  I'm not sure anyone is active on this project page.  I'll ask at the help desk and leave a response here.  Magnolia677 (talk) 04:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I'd seen your inquiry. Thanks! Shinyang-i (talk) 04:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I just posted the question at Help desk. Cheers.  Magnolia677 (talk) 04:43, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Number of setlists in a concert tour article
I recently edited The Resistance Tour and it reminded me of some of the tour articles I have seen in the past. This article has 139 tour dates, 98 separate setlists and half of the size of the article consists of the setlists. I am not sure if there should be a common setlist used in the article or a certain number of setlists should be used, but clearly 98 setlists is overkill and not needed. Any opinions would be helpful. Aspects (talk) 00:32, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

X Tour (Ed Sheeran tour) listed at Requested moves
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X Tour (Ed Sheeran tour) listed at Requested moves
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Hit and Run Tour (Prince tour 2014) listed at Requested moves
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Hit and Run Tour (Prince tour 2014) listed at Requested moves
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X Tour (Ed Sheeran tour) listed at Requested moves
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Italicising albums
Question I've had for years but never found the right place to ask: if a tour is based on an album, as such the Bad World Tour, why is the album title not italicised? Should it not be the Bad World Tour? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 22:02, 29 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Still wondering, by the way. What say you, Project members? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 22:22, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I see that the article title is now just (no italics). The title has been discussed a couple of times (see Talk:Bad (tour)), so that is the better place for further discussion. FWIW, just because an album title also appears in the tour name, it should not be automatically italicized IMO – whatever name most reliable sources call it should be used. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:28, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * addressed italics below at No italics for tour names. MOS:TITLE includes: "There are cases in which the title should be in neither italics nor quotation marks (though many are capitalized):... Exhibitions, concerts, and other events: the world's fairs, Expo 2010, Cannes Film Festival, Burning Man, Lollapalooza". —Ojorojo (talk) 16:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I sort of get it.. and I sort of don't. We have countless articles named "List of [italised title] episodes", but concert tours for an album—which are otherwise referred to by italicised titles all across WP—do not. It's inconsistent. Bad World Tour would make just as much sense as List of Game of Thrones characters. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 22:36, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

General info for the project's main page
I came across the main project page detailing style etc. The two things on which I sought info on are missing - not sure if that's because this isn't the place? 1) photos - what photos do we desire? Poster of event (subject to copyright?), tickets, empty venue/stage showing set up if appropriate (e.g. if staff has access to it before doors open - if the set up is different from just a stage, such as U2 360), an actual concert in action etc? almost everyone in the audience takes pics, there are also always professional photographers and I wonder if the band/photographer in some instances may be happy to release one picture to us? (If we make it known that we would like and host one or two professionally shot concert pics, I do hope & believe this may become common practice for artists) and 2) set-list - these are pretty standard normally, perhaps with the occasional tweak over nights - these tweaks may be expanded on in that section of the article? Others such as Radiohead have different setlists nightly so would we encourage setlists for each gig in this case? And what would we consider a WP:RS for setlists? setlist.fm is a great resource for the casual fan, I know I use it for every gig I go to, but it's user-generated content and not acceptable to use here. Where else do we get setlists from?? As reviews sometimes, not always, do, and are often only reported in local or special interest media. Rayman60 (talk) 02:17, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Section title - "Shows" vs. "Tour dates" or "Itinerary"
I find the widely used section title "Shows" (with a list of concerts, dates, venues, attenance, etc from the tour) to be very non-specific and ambiguous. If I had never read a concert tour article before, I might think the "Shows" section contains performance details or summaries of songs being played at the shows. I would not automatically think it's a list of the individual concerts themselves. Whereas a section title like "Tour dates" or "Itinerary" is very specific. I would not be confused about what content to expect in a section with that naming standard. I'll also add the only Featured Article on a modern tour under this project banner, Zoo TV Tour, uses the "Tour dates" section title (see here for the article version at the time it passed review). What do others think? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 22:44, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

The Formation World Tour listed at Requested moves
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2017 Manchester Arena bombing listed at Requested moves
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Does anyone subscribe to Billboard? I need to know some boxscore data for a tour.
Please ping me here or post on my user talk. Thanks. — Calvin999 14:49, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Review Page I Just Created (Lorde)
Hello! I just created the Pure Heroine Tour page for Lorde's first tour and I would love some input so I can make it as good as possible. Thank you! Michfan2123 (talk) 3 October 2017

Disambiguation links on pages tagged by this wikiproject
Wikipedia has many thousands of wikilinks which point to disambiguation pages. It would be useful to readers if these links directed them to the specific pages of interest, rather than making them search through a list. Members of WikiProject Disambiguation have been working on this and the total number is now below 20,000 for the first time. Some of these links require specialist knowledge of the topics concerned and therefore it would be great if you could help in your area of expertise.

A list of the relevant links on pages which fall within the remit of this wikiproject can be found at http://69.142.160.183/~dispenser/cgi-bin/topic_points.py?banner=WikiProject_Concert_Tours

Please take a few minutes to help make these more useful to our readers.&mdash; Rod talk 14:37, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

No Filter Tour (The Rolling Stones tour) listed at Requested moves
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Finding the right place for crew/designer credits
Hi folks, it seems to me that the articles for individual tours would be benefit from crediting (when possible) people such as: A Madonna tour has hundreds of people working on it, but it should be possible to identify the major designers who are responsible for the look and feel of the show (particularly on big-budget shows that list credits in a tour book). Do you think these should these be options in the infobox, or part of the body of the article? leigh (&#966;&#952;&#8057;&#947;&#947;&#959;&#962;) 21:41, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * show director
 * tour manager
 * stage designer
 * lighting designer
 * costume designer
 * choreographer
 * musical director (usually a member of the live band)

No italics for tour names
Most tour names do not appear in italics, such as U2 360° Tour and Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle Tour. But some tour names appear in italics, such as in articles A Bigger Bang (concert tour) and Bad (tour). Initially it was not clearly stated which is preferred in Wikipedia's Manual of Style when I looked at MOS:ITALICTITLE and MOS:ITALICS until I found WP:Manual_of_Style/Titles which states "the title should be in neither italics nor quotation marks" for "concerts or other large media events". The latter appears to be definitive in stating that concert names should not use italics, so I plan to make edits on this assumption. If there are other considerations, perhaps we can discuss here. Curious Eric  03:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Bandito Tour listed at Requested moves
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Dive Bar Tour listed at Requested moves
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A new newsletter directory is out!
A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.
 * – Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Hello there
Hello, I have been working on a draft of an Indian pianist: Milen Manoj Earath. I would be grateful if someone specializing in this field from around here takes a look at it and possibly even re-review it? Thank you, Yours Sincerely, Refluxdonut (talk) 11:23, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Dive Bar Tour listed at Requested moves
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Accessibility considerations
The current practice of including column headers in the middle of tables in many concert tour articles and lists was brought up in a discussion at WT:ACCESSIBILITY. As part of the goal to make articles accessible to all, MOS:ACCESS addresses tables and references the Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial. The section Avoiding column headers in the middle of the table includes: "Do not place column headers in the middle of a table to visually separate the table. Assistive technologies will get confused as they cannot know which previous headers still apply to parts of the table after the first one... In most cases, the easier solution is to split the table into several sub-tables with explanatory sub-headings" and includes good and bad examples. If there are no objections, I'll add this to the "Style" section under a "Tables" subsection. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:30, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

My Chemical Romance Reunion Tour listed at Requested moves
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Louis Tomlinson World Tour two shows listed as postponed that actually happened
The shows on 9th & 10th of March for Louis Tomlinson's World Tour in Spain are listed as postponed but they actually were not cancelled. Only those since the 11th have been postponed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.41.254.88 (talk) 03:41, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Lists of live performances
There is a discussion currently on-going about live performance lists which might be of interest to you at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(music) → Lil- ℧niquԐ1 - ( Talk ) - 22:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Messed up infobox chronology
Please see the discussion here. — Status  ( talk  ·  contribs ) — Preceding undated comment added 21:37, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Disruptive editing of tables in tour articles
Sock puppets of blocked users, IP editors, and others have been making significant disruptive edits to tables in many concert tour articles. Specifically, they repeatedly remove table formatting that is used to meet WP:ACCESSIBILITY goals, as outlined in WP:CONCERTS. They are being identified in preparation of WP:Requests for page protection. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:20, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello : Since you were so helpful with the Doors articles, maybe you have some suggestions on how to deal with this problem. Some of the editors have been blocked, one ANI report was not acted on, and the IPs haven't been addressed. This started back in April 2020 with the last on 9 January 2021; all of the edits attempt to return the tables to an earlier format which doesn't meet WP:ACCESS. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:33, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ojorojo, thanks--my time, this morning is up, and this is a big thing. I have not yet looked at the ANI report but I saw that the 2020 editors were blocked. For now, my quick and lazy advice is to compile a list of disruptive edits by Aphrodite, if there were any, since the ANI thread. As for the IPs, I'd need to have a bit more time to spend on it, but semi-protection is always an option. BTW I'm sure you are aware of NTOUR--are all these tours notable? Finally, I don't know what the CONCERT page says, but I see that ACCESSIBILITY also links to MOS:COLOR and such things, so I assume you know exactly what is going on. My go-to experts for accessibility are always and . I'm sorry, I gotta go: my fingers are getting way too stiff in this cold kitchen. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Aphrodite hasn't made any similarly disruptive edits since the last slew on 15/12/20, which prompted the ANI report. 2) I became aware of the table issue in 2019 while preparing a GAN and raised it at ACCESS talk (RexxS was one of the participants). I added the info to WP:CONCERT after proposing it above. 3) Many tour articles probably don't meet NTOUR and are full of OR, bad sources, etc. But several of those that have been disrupted are GAs (I raised the general ACCESS issue at GAN talk). 4) Get warm! Holding a hot mug of coffee works for me. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:36, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I added links to a new IP who made similar disruptive edits to eight articles today. Since Aphrodite's last edits in December, all subsequent activity has been by IPs. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:08, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * , can you "hide" the block below, you know with a "show" button? That takes up less space. I just blocked one of the ranges, and I think there possibly even more of a connection with this, User:BandBlue2020. Drmies (talk) 20:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you,, that should be very helpful. Should I continue to add new similarly disruptive edits to this list (now hidden)? —Ojorojo (talk) 14:52, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ojorojo, we are dealing with a longterm vandal who is not likely to stop soon, so I think that that would be a good idea. What you could do is make a subpage, either in your own user space or as an appendix to this talk page (like "Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Concerts/LTA", or whatever name suits your fancy, and you can place a headnote on the page, pointing to it). I think that besides the work that you're doing the most progress might be made from a positive identification of the vandal or vandals. I am not convinced that there is a connection between Mortal Aphrodite and those 2020 accounts, but it's not impossible. Anyway, yes, please continue doing this; without it there is just little we admins can do. And if you don't mind, don't group em by article (though for some of your colleagues in this project that might be helpful); I prefer them organized by IP, because that saves me a lot of time. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, the show goes on. I created Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Concerts/Concerts vandals to list the new disruptive editors. I kept it simple – let me know what is the best format for admins to do their work. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:14, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but that geolocates to a very different place and I don't think it's the same editor. That's a case for AIV, if disruption continues. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:44, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Tour article tables need to go back to how they used to be
The accessibility goals need to change back to how they used to be. The current formatting is terrible 2600:6C46:6800:21F8:8C50:3C96:C1A5:FA93 (talk) 03:04, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Madonna tour article tables need to go back to their old format
All tour date listings for all Madonna tours from 1985-2020 need to be reverted to the way they used to be. The new design is no good. 2600:6C46:6800:21F8:D4C3:BBF4:DA9D:E7E3 (talk) 03:56, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Play (concert residency)
I've recently created this following its announcement. Feel free to expand as further details become known. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:48, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Lists of concerts
I have issue according to lists of concerts: Eurohunter (talk) 12:30, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Should we use references from relations ("after concert") that actually confirm artist attendence than those announcements before concert ("will perform") or we alleged if there is no update to certain article that something didn't happened or new article about deelay or cancellation then we can assume it actually happened? There is a lot of concerts which took attention only before or in day of start - so there is no articles about them after they end.
 * Famous artists has attended probably in thousands of smaller and larger concerts and it is impossible to have notable references about all of them. It may be quite big difference so what about infoboxes? It can often count about 100 performances from list but actually there may be 200 or 1000 performances more so numbers in infoxes looks weird.
 * The bigger problem is with "Performed song(s)" - references often don't mention them or mention only one of performed songs so most of those "Performed song(s)" are WP:OR. Eurohunter (talk) 11:33, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * What do you think?   Eurohunter (talk) 11:33, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Red Room listed at Requested moves
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Kiss "Alive/Worldwide Tour"
I recently reverted on the redirect for the tour article on 1996–1997 Kiss Alive/Worldwide Tour, and had improved on it by adding sources and references to more background on the concert tour, boxscore data and reception regarding the tour. What do you think? HorrorLover555 (talk) 05:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * A couple of comments after a brief glance:
 * The "Set list" section has no citations (the same songs were played in the same order for the entire years?)
 * The tables don't follow WP:CONCERTS (lack scope="col", scope="row"; column headers should not be used in the middle of the table, such as for the continents which span several columns).
 * The sources for the "Tour dates" section appear to be fansites ("KissConcertHistory.com... is an unofficial & unsanctioned fan website") and shouldn't be used (see WP:SPS).
 * The sources don't mention "legs" (is the one English date in the middle of the 1996 North American dates actually a separate official leg, or is this original research?).
 * —Ojorojo (talk) 14:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Opening Act error
For the April 8, 1997 date in Evansville, IN it lists "D Generation" as the opening act". It was actually "Outhouse" who are listed as the openers for the following leg of the tour. I was there, and remember their odd name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carloparlo49 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Bouncer (doorman) listed at Requested moves
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Supporting acts set lists
Hello all! I was just wondering if we should include the set lists of the supporting acts of a concert tour? LOVI 33  23:35, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Supporting acts often change during a tour. Also, there may be multiple acts and to list all would might overburden the article (reliably sourcing the less popular acts may also be a problem). Unless there is an overriding reason to do so for a particular tour, I don't think they should be included as a standard practice. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:56, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Wonder World Tour (Miley Cyrus) listed at Requested moves
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Weird Al Yankovic "The Unfortunate Return of the Ridiculously Self-Indulgent, Ill-Advised Vanity Tour"
Hello again. I was glancing at the Weird Al tour article, The Unfortunate Return of the Ridiculously Self-Indulgent, Ill-Advised Vanity Tour. After taking a look at it, there doesn't seem to be many sources as most of the songs including the setlist are unsourced as well as the encore cover songs being out of place in the tour dates table. I've been considering a redirect to the artist's article, but I thought I would bring this here to debate first. Even with only two references which include something from the magazine Spin and the tour dates from Weird Al's website, it doesn't seem notable as per WP:NTOUR. HorrorLover555 (talk) 18:03, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Taylor Swift's Reputation Stadium Tour listed at Requested moves
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Touring Data
I am seeing a lot of editors adding in Touring Data as a reliable source, either from their website or their social media. I've always seen this as an unreliable source. Is there a consensus based on this? Or?  livelikemusic   ( TALK! ) 15:54, 11 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I don’t believe it’s considered reliable, I’ve never come across a source even mentioning them. I know there’s a lot of users, especially newer ones who use their Twitter as a “source”, but I’ve always just removed it as social media isn’t a source. Their website claims they accept reports from venues, promoters, agencies, and artists representatives. I find it hard to believe any music professional would go to them but that’s just my opinion. I’ve always went with Billboard or Pollstar. Pillowdelight (talk) 09:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Exactly, but they're attempting to say Billboard is not reliable. Hilarious.  livelikemusic   ( TALK! ) 13:56, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

The Xperience listed at Requested moves
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Attendance data
When filling out attendance data, if the touring company (such as livenation) has marked the venue as sold out, but not given an exact number, is it safe to use the specific venue's capacity to fill in the info on the tours page? Jayb.rd98 (talk) 01:10, 2 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello Jay! Not really, take Coldplay as an example: during A Head Full of Dreams Tour they sold out Chicago's Soldier Field with 95,323 tickets in two dates, while in Music of the Spheres World Tour they sold out the same venue, in the same amount of dates, with 107,072 tickets. GustavoCza (talk • contribs) 22:00, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I Am... World Tour listed at Requested moves
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Content dispute
There is a content dispute about whether individual concerts should be added to stadium articles in advance of the concert date. Your input is welcome at Talk:SoFi Stadium. --Magnolia677 (talk) 10:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Debate on "country" or "state" in tour date table
To begin, it is usual for "Country" to be used in the tour date tables, however it came to my attention that "state" is being used in place for it on tours that are exclusively in the United States. Checking the edit history, they said that it needs to be "state" as according to the editor, the tour article with it accompanied shows were "a U.S. only tour", all without consensus from the article's talk page nor looking for consensus. These are article examples of what I am talking about:
 * Battlefield Tour
 * Denim & Rhinestones Tour
 * 5th Annual Honda Civic Tour
 * Meaning of Life Tour

So I must ask in the WikiProject, what is your opinion on this back-and-forth debate regarding this? Should we stick to using only "country" for the table or figuring out how to fit in the usage for "state" in its place on a tour article which there are only shows in the United States? HorrorLover555 (talk) 16:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Except for web accessibility, there is no style guideline for tour tables, so there is no one "correct" way to set up table columns. Generally, columns are only used when there are multiple variables – when all the column entries are "United States", the column is unnecessary and could be added as a header or in a caption (adding "North America", "Western Hemisphere", etc., is just overkill.)
 * Instead of this:


 * It could be simplified like this:


 * or this:


 * Listing the states apparently isn't important enough to include on the typical multi-national tour tables, so there doesn't seem to be any real need for them to be included on single country tours. It comes down to personal preference and therefore should be decided by consensus.
 * —Ojorojo (talk) 18:55, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It sounds reasonable for those tables as a solution. I agree with this, and should stop any back-and-forth edit warring on any articles that have exclusive shows in one country. HorrorLover555 (talk) 19:29, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Rfc: Should the Eras Tour be mentioned in the lead of Sabrina Carpenter?
An RfC has been made here regarding whether Carpenter opening Taylor Swift's Eras Tour should be mentioned in the lead of Carpenter's biography article or not. You are invited to participate.  ℛonherry  ☘  18:08, 23 November 2023 (UTC)