Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force/Archive 1

Attribution for borrowed text from WP:BIAS
czar  &middot;   &middot;  07:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Category list
I started a category list here - I am hoping to put categories here that need to be de-ghettoized, so members of the task force can start chipping away at them if interested. I also added an algorithm for correct categorization without ghettoization that I think will work and is relatively simply to apply - please read and provide feedback. If you think this should all be moved somewhere else, like a sub-page, that is fine too - just let me know. thanks! --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for posting that, and this is a good place for it. I'm not sure I follow what's needed, mind you. Whenever I've tried to work with categories, I've mostly been beaten back. :) SlimVirgin (talk) 02:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok - plz read through the algorithm, and let me know if it makes sense - otherwise, let's fix the description until it does make sense. The only way this ghettoization will stop is if people understand how to categorize without ghettoizing. I realized I'd been doing it the wrong way all along - first putting people in the most-specific-ethnic/gender cats, then trying to de-ghettoize up the tree, but that is a bad approach - it's much easier to basically classify them multiple times, each time adding more and more facets - that way, you start with a fully de-ghettoized/generic person, and then you're just adding facets along the way, so if you screw up, the result is less specific than it should be (which is ok), instead of ghettoizing (which is not). It's just harder, as you have to initially think of the person as not having any of the facets that they have. Also, on another note, I hope you'll consider my randomization solution for the vegetarians page. cheers! --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Has there been some sort of more detailed discussion about 'ghettoization' somewhere? Just curious. Sionk (talk) 20:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * check the NY Times, Huffington Post, NY Review of books, etc... --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * You're saying the press have told Wikipedia to 'de-ghettoize'? Sionk (talk) 20:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In effect, yes. (see the top of Category_talk:American_novelists for a representative list of media coverage). Unfortunately, the press has focused mostly on women being moved from to  - now that that's fixed, the press is likely (hopefully?) going to go away. But the problem is not solved, not even by a long-shot. There are probably 10s of thousands of bios of women, men, african americans, LGBT people, or whatever else, that are "ghettozied", eg present in a gendered/ethnic category but not also present in a generic category of the same type. Whether you consider this situation "sexism" or "racism" or not (which, for the record, I don't really, I just see it as laziness and the result of a generally broken category system -read here for more on my views), our guidance says this is wrong, so it's really a question of following that guidance (and, potentially, refining that guidance). The problem is, fixing these bios one by one takes a lot of time, and it's rather hard, as you'll see if you take my quiz.
 * Another (simpler) approach I've been taking is spotting and trying to kill categories which by their nature ghettoize, and which are in violation of WP:EGRS (which says you should never have ethnicity/gender/etc as the last-rung in a category tree), but I've had mixed success so far - there are far fewer participants in CFD than on April 24th, and some people are arguing to keep categories which are clearly on contravention of our guidelines - take a look here and give your thoughts if you like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:01, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Great, that makes it a lot clearer, thanks! Sionk (talk) 21:36, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

American women painters
I've made a start on Category:American women painters. Sionk (talk) 14:22, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Women mayors
Having had a look in Category:Women mayors the 'ghettoization' problem seems to be minimal. Of all the random entries I've looked at in Category:Women mayors of places in the United States and Category:Women mayors of places in England, for example, they seem to be in a general mayoral category too. Minor problem? Sionk (talk) 15:24, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * When I looked at several other countries they seemed to be ghettoized, but I may not have looked carefully enough. In any case, I think we're now actually close on a category intersection solution that make all of this deghettoization work not worth it anymore, so I'm going to focus on that for now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:33, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

English comedians
I've noticed an editor starting to 'ghettoize' Category:English women comedians and Category:English male comedians. I've left a message on their Talk page. Sionk (talk) 16:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * See here for my response. Apologies for any inconvenience. Mathonius (talk) 16:59, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Gender Studies CSGB
I happened upon WikiProject Gender Studies/Countering Systemic Gender Bias recently, which was the interest for this TF but in 2008, now preserved for (our) historical interest. Has some useful ideas worth considering. czar  &middot;   &middot;  06:11, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

"Proposed change: consistency in article title gendering"
In response to the women novelist categorization Signpost piece, there is a proposed change on article title gendering for your consideration. czar  &middot;   &middot;  02:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposal
I wish to draw group members' attention to the current AfD on Sexism in South Korea. A number of male editors are asking for article deletion, and failing that, have proposed (and then initiated, even during AfD proceedings) to a 56.9% reduction in article content including removal of some 3 references in a press club dominated country. The latest proposal is a article move to Gender inequality in South Korea as if anybody is claiming that women are currently in positions of power, political, corporate or economical, in SK. The problem is unfortunately complicated by the South Korean media pratice of requiring junior reporters to serve as gofers for politicians for 2-3 years before they are permitted to question them--something noted in Jake Adelstein's work in Japan and Korea--resulting in SK and J mass media often parroting government announcements and major scandals such as the recent Korean diplomatic affair being broken by 'citizen media.' US-based editors are claiming, "the mainstream media denies there is a problem, ergo there is no problem, delete on sight," but that is applying US media standards to a closed country.

Part II of the problem is that I ultimately hope to create Sexism in China entry, which is an entry dealing with a totalitarian, Communist nation with an entire state-controlled media. Upon entry creation, once again, of course, we will have US-based editors claiming, "Look! The Communist Youth Daily claims there is no gender bias in China!", and the whole cycle of AfDs and RfCs and RfAs will start again, with most WP editors staying on their sidelines to keep their discipline records clean. Further, there is a known vocal and well-organized group of Chinese nationalist editors here on WP, so, ironically, we will inevitably see a common cause alliance of convenience between the US techs and the Chinese nationalists.

As I noted on the AfD for Sexism in South Korea, there are over 500 mainspace articles fitting the pattern 'Racism in [country]' and it's time we deal with the well-known and decades-long gender bias issue here on WP. Sexism in South Korea is just a first and necessary step. Sexism in China will be a nightmare but ultimately a progressive step. Sexism in India with its article start as a long screed against discrimination against men in India (a country which burned widows and demands bridal dowrys, that continually engages in eve-teasing) defies even outrage. It's Sexism in Turkey or Sexism in Saudi Arabia, of course, that will ultimately decide whether we're all running terrified like rabbits or commited to WP core values.-Samsara9 (talk) 05:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * You didn't cite "citizen media" for Sexism in South Korea - you cited a Blogspot, an American online celebrity tabloid and a pornographic site. I have no objection to a well-sourced, encyclopedic article on Sexism in South Korea, which is, no doubt, a real thing. I do have an objection to an obviously-POV, highly-polemic and terribly-sourced essay in the encyclopedia.
 * Note that the Sexism in India page is chock-full of reliable sources, including newspapers, academic studies, books and other media which can be relied on to provide even-handed, accurate information. That is why nobody is attempting to argue against that page or to delete it. It is perfectly encyclopedic.
 * I have attempted to explain Wikipedia's reliable sourcing policy to you on the article Talk page, and I am willing to work with you to improve the article. But it starts with finding reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Avoiding sexist bias in writing
APA style could help this project. I'm more convinced about the utility of this project given this editor's recent changes from "humanity" to "mankind"/"man"   Cavann (talk) 21:58, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Just noticed the already existing Gender-neutral language. Cavann (talk) 22:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Deghettoization algorithm
I'm not sure I understand the algorithm. Why should Sue be in Category:American poets but not in Category:American writers? --GRuban (talk) 18:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Because she's in several diffusing subcats of American writers - such as and . American writers right now is a mess, and the general way in which people are diffused out of it, and into which subcats, is not really resolved, so you're also seeing greater confusion in the tree as it stands right now. If you look at  that's a bit of a better example, as that tree has been fully diffused already. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * But isn't she similarly in several diffusing subcats of American poets? Specifically Category:American women poets, Category:African-American poets, and, of course, Category:African-American women poets? What makes the difference? --GRuban (talk) 18:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome to the world of non-diffusing categories. All of those cats, since they are gender/ethnic cats, are non-diffusing - which means, membership in them should not preclude membership in the parent. The trick is, what if the parent is fully diffused?  is again an example - just because you're in  doesn't mean you bubble up to  - or you can think, ok, we do bubble up, but then we get diffused afterwards, say to a state-specific category for example. When you intersect multiple non-diffusing facets, like African-American + women, then you need to bubble up to all of the adjectives individually, in a way - that's why she's in so many poets cats. Tricky, right? What are the chances that your average editor will get this right? OTOH, if these gendered/ethnic/sexuality cats aren't non-diffusing, then NY times articles get written. Quite the catch-22 if you ask me...We Didn't Start the Fire comes to mind... --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Where, in Azathoth's name, is this unspeakable nightmare explained? Please link to it prominently in the algorithm section. I can't believe I'm the only one that would be confused by this. --GRuban (talk) 22:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * No - in fact, most people are, so what they do is, they just diffuse. It's easier. And then, NY times articles get written. The basics are laid out in WP:EGRS (around non-diffusing, but it's poorly explained), and some in WP:Categorization - but the specifics of the non-sexist/non-racist algorithm I laid out have not, IMHO, been elaborated before in such detail - which is why I developed that in the first place - to illustrate how hard it actually is. But that's an extreme example - I've just been deghettoizing the "women mathematicians" tree, it wasn't that bad, probably took me an hour to do 30 bios or so. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:27, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

RfC on title of Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)
Hi, there is an RM/RfC here that may be of interest to this project. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:32, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Beatrice Kozera for deletion
Beatrice Kozera was the Mexican farmworker girlfriend who inspired one of Jack Kerouac's characters, and the subject of a film and an upcoming fictional biography. Djembayz (talk) 00:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)