Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Curling/Archive 1

2010 Tim Hortons Brier
2010 Tim Hortons Brier provincial championships need to be created/updated. -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll get on it after I finish the World Championships. Afro  ( Its More Than a Feeling ) - Afkatk 12:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Are these going to be separate pages or will they be all one article summarizing each of the twelve provincial championships?--SargentIV (talk) 16:01, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Separate pages, like we did in 2009, and for the Scotties this year. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Medal Tables
I propose that we come up with an established order for the Medals Tables. I've noticed that many people add Medals as they are earned, but sometimes this means that Junior Worlds medals appear higher than World Championship and Olympic medals. My proposed order for medals tables is:
 * Olympics Games
 * World Championships
 * European Championships/Pacific Championships/Any future Pan-American Games event
 * National Championships (including the Brier and the Hearts)
 * Junior World Championships
 * World University Games
 * Winter Universiade
 * Though this is best suited for the Talk page, I think this layout is logically the best choice. Afro  ( Its More Than a Feeling ) - Afkatk
 * I would have the national championships last, but I don't care either way. As long was we use the Wikipedia standard of listing all the golds first, then silvers, then bronzes. -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree with listing all Golds first, then Silver, then Bronze. I feel that they should be listed in chronological order. With regards to the National Championships I see your logic in placing them last as the others are international championships. But I feel that National Championships should go ahead of Junior competitions (and in 2012 when the first Youth Winter Olympics are held I feel they should be between Nationals and Junior Worlds). The World University Games and Winter Universiade which are senior competitions but I don't believe have enough stature to be listed in the medals tables, but they already appear in many boxes and I don't want to go on a massive deleting spree.--SargentIV (talk) 03:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The gold, silver, bronze rank is Wikipedia policy, I think... I can check. -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * First, my apologies for placing this thread on this page. Afkatk, you're right, this should be on the talk page. Second, with regards to the order of medals in the Medals Tables I believe they should be listed in chronological order. These are biographies and when we write the body of the biographies we talk about information in chronological order. I believe the same standard should be applied to the Medals Tables.--SargentIV (talk) 04:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * First, my apologies for placing this thread on this page. Afkatk, you're right, this should be on the talk page. Second, with regards to the order of medals in the Medals Tables I believe they should be listed in chronological order. These are biographies and when we write the body of the biographies we talk about information in chronological order. I believe the same standard should be applied to the Medals Tables.--SargentIV (talk) 04:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Previous Years World Championships
I just wanted to let everyone know I've updated the recent years World Championship articles to what I perceive as current standards, basically some of the articles from 2006-2009, some needed more updating than others, also this years World Mixed Doubles (2010 World Mixed Doubles Curling Championship) will be brought up to standards once the tournament begins, I had a little trouble deciphering the 2009 results section so its not just me being lazy, just thought I'd update you all. Afro ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 13:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Notable Curlers
Many of the pages of the noble curlers in the sport need to be improved, created or updated. -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 00:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree though the project as a whole needs a lot of improvement. Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 01:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Project article importance
Ok, I think we need some commentary on this. I was surprised to see Afkatk downgrade the Sandra Schmirler article from top importance all the way to mid importance. She is widely considered one of the top female curlers of all time. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I feel that all Curlers should be Mid importance, pretty much most of the importances levels I've seen you put are Top and High I don't see how or why everyone should be this important. Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 08:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty much let me elaborate on my point, we so far have 564 articles stamped with our project tag, 232 of them which is half the project are High and Top importance, how are we supposed to be able to decipher which pages the project really should be devoting our time to when half of them are graded at the top end of the importance scale? Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 09:20, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I would be in favour of downgrading some curlers from high to mid, but some of your choices have been odd. Curlers span the degree of importance. Top curlers of the past and present like Kevin Martin or Sandra Schmirler should be in the top category, because they are the most famous curlers. Other famous curlers should be categorized as of high importance, like World champion Andrea Schöpp, or Brier champion Kevin Koe. Curlers of mid importance should be lesser known curlers such as US women's champion Erika Brown or Canadian junior champion Rachel Homan. Finally, curlers that are not famous at all should be of low importance, such as Chris Gardner, or Mark Bice. -- Earl Andrew - talk 20:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't been pinpointing specific Curlers which is why you may find my choices weird, I've basically just been downgrading all of them. personally we need the other members of this project to give their thoughts before we can start dishing out a strict guideline, personally I think all Mid/Low, except special cases which will be ranked High. Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 21:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not a mamber, but I guess that is just a formality - High importance for me would be skips of Olympic champions and multiple world champions. Everyone else kind of slotted in below.  Schmirler, Martin and Gushue are high importance in the curling world.  I would have 'Top' as the basics of curling rather than curlers. Canada Hky (talk) 21:40, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Other wiki projects have players in the top level of importance. Michael Jordan for example, is listed as being of top importance for the NBA Wikiproject. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:57, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but I don't think we can annoint anyone as the Michael Jordan of curling. Canada Hky (talk) 01:22, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, but there are a small number of curlers we can call truly great curlers. My skip once called Russ Howard as the "Wayne Gretzky" of curling, for instance. There's nothing wrong with naming a small handful of curlers as top priorities for the project. -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If World Championship and Olympic Gold Medal winning skips are of high importance then what about their Thirds, Seconds, and Leads? They play an incredibly important aspect of the game as well. And what about Mirjam Ott and Debbie McCormick? They are the first curlers (female at least) to compete in three different Olympics, that is quite an accomplishment (particularly for Ott since she became the first curler to win two Olympic medals). Note: this does exclude the 1988 and 1992 Olympics where curling was a demonstration sport.--SargentIV (talk) 02:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should consider all curlers who have made the Olympic Games of one level importance, those that have made the Worlds but not the Olympics the next level down, a third level for all those who made the European Championships, the Brier, US Nationals, or Pacific Championships only. Any curler who hasn't qualified for any of the above competitions probably doesn't need a biography at this point. --SargentIV (talk) 02:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, all the curlers play an important role on the team, but the same can be said of any team sport - but those who come up in the clutch are a step above, and for curling that usually falls to skips. 02:45, 3 April 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canada Hky (talk • contribs)
 * Well every player on the team is important, it is obvious that skips are the most well known on the team, and are therefore more likely to be searched for on Wikipedia, meaning when it comes to importance for the project, they should be of higher importance, generally. -- Earl Andrew - talk 05:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (Undent) I think Top should be reserved for the extremely special case, High could be used for the Skips of Olympic Golds and Multi Golds at the Worlds, and Mid could be used for Team mates of those Skips, while Low is for everyone else. Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 06:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Team table coding
I've been seeing on a lot of the team tables that have some weird coding which I have no idea why people feel the need to do this, on the tables column they put  align=center  now naturally this would be fine but I see on the individual rows they also add the  align=left  coding, the tables align left to begin with people, and the align=center is dumbfounding because you basically just cancelled out that with the not necessary left alignment. Afro ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 07:45, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm a fan of the following table style {| class="wikitable" border="1"

! Event ! Skip ! 3rd ! 2nd ! Lead ! Alternate ! Result This allows for lineup to change on an event basis rather than yearly. I'd also stay with the event notability, in that the Olympics, Worlds, Nationals & WCT Slams should be noted. --Coppercanuck (talk) 17:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * }
 * }
 * Maybe that can be incorporated into tables I developed for the Jenn Hanna and Rachel Homan articles. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We already have 2 Infoboxes for the Curlers and .  Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 05:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he's talking about list of teams over time, which is very important for inclusion in articles on curlers, and would not fit in well in the infobox. -- Earl Andrew - talk 22:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly, the works great but teams change over time (ie Randy Ferby's connection to Newfoundland might become a legend if not documented properly)--Coppercanuck (talk) 01:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See I thought you were just talking about the infomation tables I've seen on a lot of the Canadian Curlers articles, didn't know you were talking about the Team history section, my bad. Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 14:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Statistics
Is there any way we can clear up how the curling statistics work? I was under the impression that the number of "Stolen Ends" refers to the number of times a team with the hammer blanks the end to carry the hammer over to the next end. The team without the hammer does not get credit for the blank end. Is this correct? In general, I think all of the curling stats need to be defined clearly. -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 03:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A stolen end is when a team scores a point when they don't have hammer. You can't steal a blank end. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I meant "Blank Ends", not "Stolen Ends" -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 05:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Blank ends means total blank ends, with hammer or without. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for that information? -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 03:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Curling glossary -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For the statistics section, I think only the team with the hammer that blanks the end should get credit for the blank end. -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 23:16, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Um... that was not my original intention. You see, I wanted to record how many ends a team won, how many ends a team lost and then all the other ends would be blank. That way, people can add them all up. If you're going to do that, then create a column for blank ends without the hammer. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Question of Notability
Question: What is the guideline for notability? Example: Milwaukee Curling Club was created as a stub at the same time that Wauwatosa Curling Club was, but the latter was speedy deleted -notability. Does this WikiProject have a standard in mind, and if not, shall I take this oppertunity to get the discussion started?

I am way too new to the sport to think of being an authority, (thrown about 12-18 rocks in a learning session) however, even now it intrigues me enough to make at least some minor edits to the Wiki.slowpokeiv (talk) 01:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Sometimes things happen on Wikipedia don't make any sense. I would say most curling clubs are notable, unless they are clubs that more or less just exist on paper. I think the Wauwatosa Curling Club article was deleted, because whoever wrote it failed to ensure its notability by writing a small stub article. The Milwaukee Curling Club has not been deleted because, while it is actually a worse article, Milwaukee is a major U.S. city, and so notability is assumed. Hope that helps. -- Earl Andrew - talk 22:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It would be nice if there was a format (manual of style?) for curling clubs. The Ottawa Curling Club is a good example.  What details need to be included?  Location, sheets, rock colour, base (concrete or sand) (sorry the ice maker in me ;)), major events hosted (are all CC's that host WCT events listed) are some but it may not fill out an article. --Coppercanuck (talk) 01:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Concrete or base? That's going to be difficult to find out, and confirm. I like the OCC example, because I made it :). Although, we could probably clean it up and make a good infobox for it. We should also discuss what kind of information should be included in a club article. I know, I ran into some problems when a bunch of editors wanted to review the page. They took out the list of presidents, WCT teams, and club champions (among a number of things). I re added the presidents when another editor added an incomplete list (from a newspaper source). -- Earl Andrew - talk 01:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, Charlotte Centre Curling Club was deleted for 'non-notability' as well even though it was ALL of page three in the May 2010 issue of the US Curling News. Basically, some HARVARD asshole nominated it for deletion, then got all his friends to vote "delete"--WaxonWaxov (talk) 17:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I would propose the following notability policy for clubs: A club is considered notable if it meets several (I'd say 3, but I'm flexible) of the following criteria:
 *  Club possesses it's own (owned or lease) curling facility with dedicated ice available through the whole main curling season
 *  Club has hosted, or will host, a National or World Championship event (mens, womens, mixed, or seniors), or a Direct Qualifier to a National Championship event (ie Provincial championships or USCA regional playdowns)
 *  Club has significant external coverage outside the immediate area for some reason (unusual location, controversy, membership, etc)
 *  Club is the home club of a National champion or World champion curler
 *  Club hosts a major tournament (World curling tour or other "Professional" level event) on an annual basis


 * This would eliminate most "Paper Clubs", and probably the majority of hockey ice clubs as well. I'm okay with the first part of that, but I'm not sure about the second (although I think I'd prefer to see the curling club information attached to a rented facility club as a section on the facility, rather than a freestanding article in most cases).


 * Comments?GormtheDBA (talk) 17:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm really not too sure where we should draw the line. I could probably write a good brief article on most curling clubs, providing they have information on the internet. This is something we should look into though. -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:29, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * GormtheDBA said "I think I'd prefer to see the curling club information attached to a rented facility club as a section on the facility" My response that is NO! Arena clubs (which are NOT paper clubs) are merely tennants at an ice facility. They are separate corporations. To say arena clubs should be included in the article of the ice facility makes as much sense as saying the Carolina Panthers should be part of the article of Bank of America Satdium (where they are tennants).  Eric Cable  |  Talk  03:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I disagree. At least in Canada, a curling club refers more to the venue then an actual group of people. But then again, the two go hand in hand more often then not here. I don't think curling clubs that operate out of hockey arenas are really notable, but that's where I draw the line. -- Earl Andrew - talk 22:05, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * OK. The United States Curling Association defines clubs as
 * Dedicated Ice= They play on ice only used for curling and usually own the facility
 * Arena= They play on ice that is also used for other ice sports (hockey, skating, broom ball, short track speed skating, etc). They, almost 100% of the time, do NOT own the facility but DO own all thier equipment, the most expensive of which is of course the rocks.
 * Paper= An organized group that has properly maintained membership in both the USCA and the apprpriate regional association, but they do not have a place to play. Paper clubs generally fall into three groups: 1) Arena Clubs that have lost thier ice for whatever reason. 2)Brand-new clubs that have not yet established a relationship with an ice facility and 3)Clubs that rent ice at another club (for example, the Wilmette (Illinois) Curling Club got evicted from thier space which was owned by the local municipality and they now pay to play at the Exmoor Club).
 * For the sake of this argument, I would say that the club be a dedicated ice club should be the first criteria for establishing notability. After that, then they would also need to host major events, etc. For example, the Chicago Curling Club is the home of the American Curling History Museum. The problem with argument is that it doesn't really matter what we decide. If some snot-nosed punk sees a curling club article and thinks "curling is stupid" and they nominate for deletion based on notability, then get a bunch of thier friends to vote delete on the deletion discussion, then they will win. It's the A-#1 worst thing about Wikipedia and it's editing community in my opinion. Eric Cable  |  Talk  02:18, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

World Championships
Just to let everyone know I finished expanding the articles which were already up today, which means 1989-current, should be totally complete to current standards bar 2007 which I'll be finishing updating today, so just thought I'd let everyone know my progress. Afro ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 14:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

8 end games
Is there a way we can change the curling game template to make the 8 end games only show 8 ends? -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably but I think the template would look incomplete, and the X's suffice. Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 18:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Should be able to tweek the curlingbox template to be curlingbox8. The X's make it look like the team quit early and that is not the case. --Coppercanuck (talk) 18:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with coppercanuck. X's mean that the end wasn't played, not that it didn't exist to begin with. -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:19, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I feel blanking these like we do for Extra ends would create some confusion with some of the less knowledgeable people who come across the curling articles and may generally not be able to find the Curling glossary an – is a much simpler solution. Afro  ( Blah Blah Here ) - Afkatk 20:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * With the possibility of 8 end games in the future, and owing to the existence of 12+ end games, this is something not to be ignored. My two cents: 8 end games should only show 8, Xs are curling convention for concessions (a similar convention used in baseball to mark the last half of an inning not played, I see no reason that the curling convention should not stand as well.)
 * To that effect, and thinking that a brand new template is not really needed, I've made a (not so) quick edit to the standard template, tested at my sandbox. Addition: optional tag of ends = 8. which ignores the rest of the ends, but does not affect prior uses of the template. Examples in my test. Comments, better ideas? -slowpokeiv (talk) 00:20, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you look at the 2010 World Mixed Doubles Curling Championship page, you'll see that concessions are marked with a capital X, and the nonexistent ends are marked with a –. I agree with Afkatk in that the – should be suitable, but I think that if there's any way to make a curling box display the number of ends that the user inputs (e.g. for 9-ended matches, the curlingbox will display 9 ends. for 12-ended matches, the curlingbox will display 12 ends. etc.), then that'd be fine. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I was looking over the 1968 Air Canada Silver Broom results on the WCF Results database, and the round robin games are all 12-enders. Which reminded me of this. Have we reached a definite consensus on any solution? Because we have quite a few options here. We can:
 * use a different template for 8/11+ end games, like coppercanuck suggested (e.g. Curlingbox8 and/or Curlingbox12)
 * for this, we can also consult the Wheelchaircurlingbox template for the 8-ended games. However, this still only accommodates 9 ends max, and if a 8-end game were to go to ten ends, then the regular Curlingbox template could be utilized.
 * adjust the current template to accommodate 12 ends and simply use – for ends not played less than 8 (as used in, for example, the Curling at the 2011 Canada Games page)
 * adjust the current template to include a tag of no. of ends (like slowpokeiv's sandbox example) and have that accommodate however many ends (different from previous in that this has a tag and can be flexible to >12 ends if we decide to do that)
 * any other idea or suggestion that we can practically implement.
 * Any thoughts? It'd be great if a consensus could be reached. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:54, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, I didn't know about the wheelchair curlingbox. We should be using that all the time! -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:31, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the wheelchair curlingbox is used in the wheelchair curling articles, of course. The main difference from the curlingbox template is the use of only 8 ends, with the 9th end (extra end) labelled EE. That's all. But, if necessary, we should differentiate between the two by creating a Curlingbox8 template (as in #1). If you'd like. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:55, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Done -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:29, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Great! I made two sample templates on my userspace, for consideration. One of them is the Curlingbox12, which holds only 12 ends of play. I can change that if necessary to hold 13 ends. Also, I did an overhaul of the Curlingbox template, named as CurlingboxA. Its default is 10 ends, but it can do 11 or 12. Tests are here. Any comments? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 19:09, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As of now, the CurlingboxA template still needs work, so I've put a status for the template's progress. Feel free to check back and add a note to the test page if you have suggestions. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 00:16, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, is anyone familiar with template language? Because I've been trying to decipher this for a while, and I don't know how I can make it so that the Curlingbox can be modified to accommodate a possible 11th and 12th end. I've been trying to edit my CurlingboxA template but to no avail... So I created a page which details all of my trials, and if anyone knows why this is going wrong or why this won't work, please let me know! I'm not sure if I am writing the code wrong, if I'm not approaching this right or if this isn't possible at all. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So are we decided on any options yet (from the list above)? As of now we have a Curlingbox8 template and I have a working Curlingbox12 in my userspace, if we want to just use these alternate curlingboxes. Or, do we want to adjust the main template? I've been working on CurlingboxA for a while to get it to accept both 11 and 12 ends, but it hasn't been fruitful. I just don't think that it's wise to put in a lot of effort into something that might not be used.
 * Also, if we do decide to use Curlingbox 8/12, I will begin to change some pages to reflect the new decision. And should the Curlingbox12 include an extra 13th end? I don't see any 13 end games in the WCCs, so I'm not sure if that's necessary. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 23:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and start using them. The 12 end box should have a 13 end option. The WCF doesn't show the end by end results for very many tournaments, unfortunately, but I'm sure the results are in old newspapers. Same goes with old Briers, etc. They will be used in time. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:39, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

11+ end games
During Draw 2 of the Women's competition at the 2002 Olympics, there was a 12 end game between Switzerland and Russia. As far as I know, the curlingbox template only allows for 11 ends. -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 16:34, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There's another 12 end game from Draw 8 of the Women's competition from the 2004 European Curling Championships. -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 02:21, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Also curling matches "back in the day" were scheduled for 12 and 14 ends. I'm not sure when the standard became 10 ends. --Coppercanuck (talk) 14:24, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to do it, but I think the curingbox code needs to be changed to allow for 8 end or 11+ end games. The way it is now, there's no way to use the curlingbox to show a 11+ end game. -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 15:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed the first Brier had 14 end games. They went to 10 end games in the 1970s I believe, and there is much talk about dropping it to 8 ends in the future. A long, long time ago, they used to keep playing until one team scored 32 points. Imagine how many ends they had to play! -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See 8 end conversation above, edits to allow 12+ ends should not be too much more difficult... -slowpokeiv (talk) 00:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Languages
I was thinking about the various articles to be written about curling in other countries (mostly Europe). A quick search on the Swedish language page led me to Svenska Curlingförbundet. Should these articles be tagged with the tag? I'm unfamiliar with other WP's that span the various languages around the world.--Coppercanuck (talk) 16:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Draws without end-by-end scores
Regarding the results without any end-by-end scores, do you think we should use a regular curling box to show the results, or should a wikitable be used? Should we decide and establish this as a general rule? Usually only the older curling tournaments have no end-by-end results.

Curling box from 1988 Winter OGs:

Wikitable from 1992 Winter OGs:

Thanks. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 00:55, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Sports Notability
There is discussion ongoing at Wikipedia_talk:BIO debating possible changes to the WP:ATHLETE notability guideline. As a result, some have suggested using WP:NSPORT as an eventual replacement for WP:ATHLETE. Editing has begun at WP:NSPORT, please participate to help refine the notability guideline for the sports covered by this wikiproject. —Joshua Scott (LiberalFascist) 03:42, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons
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Your Project's list can be found at WikiProject Curling/Unreferenced BLPs. As of May 17 you have approximately 40 articles to be referenced. The list of all other WikiProject UBLPs can be found at WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons/WikiProjects.

Your assistance in reviewing and referencing these articles is greatly appreciated. If you have any questions, please don't hestitate to ask either at WT:URBLP or at my talk page. Thanks, The-Pope (talk) 17:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Hammer Symbol
I noticed that in all of the linescore boxes that the hammer is not longer just an X, but now and X and the word Hammer. Why was this done? The only reason I can think of is for people not familiar with the sport. But I find that spelling out hammer heavily distracts from the aesthetics of the box and hurts more than it helps.--SargentIV (talk) 03:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with you and I don't understand the rationale behind the change. See discussion here: Template talk:Hammer. -- MrBeijingles (talk • contribs) 18:27, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, so what's going on now with the hammer symbol? I checked a few curling pages, and instead of the image of a hammer and the word "hammer," it displays "1. REDIRECT Template:Hammer." Can this be fixed? Thanks. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 02:00, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Infobox curler
Just an FYI, I've overhauled Infobox curler to use the standardised Infobox format and to add more biographical fields, and also created a documentation page to make implementation simpler. If anyone has suggestions for modification, or for the addition of other parameters, let me know. — Huntster (t @ c) 17:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Infobox Curling Club
Hello, I have created Template:Infobox UScurlingclub and it is still a work in progress. Even though it says "US" it should still work for Canadian clubs as well. Like I said, work in progress. You can see it in action here: Chicago Curling Club and here: Milwaukee Curling Club. --WaxonWaxov (talk) 17:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Might I suggest renaming the template to "Infobox curling club", as that is the more standard naming format? I'd also like to have a go and convert it to the standardised Infobox meta format. — Huntster (t @ c) 17:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Go ahead and change the name if you like. I would caution against making other changes until I can document it. It is set up to deal with multiple locations such as a club that has a physical address, or a mailing address, or an Arena club's ice house location.--WaxonWaxov (talk) 17:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm. It is rather non-standard to include mailing (and physical) addresses in Infoboxes. I recall the discussions that cropped up with the Infobox university template, which resulted in all such addresses being removed. Such details are usually just left to the club's website (or the phone book), with only the city, state/province, and country being provided. I'll mock up a copy of the template in my user space so you can see what I mean, and post here when I'm finished. — Huntster (t @ c) 17:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry it took a while, had some issues I had to puzzle out. Please check out User:Huntster/Sandbox/2 for a code-ready mockup of the Infobox. I've gotten rid of a large number of unnecessary parameters. (I'm assuming you copied your code from another infobox?) — Huntster (t @ c) 21:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I got busy with life and stuff and forgot about this issue. Did you get ti resolved? Yes, I copied the infobox from another source.WaxonWaxov (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Infobox curling
I propose to rename Infobox curling to Infobox curling competition, as the template is *only* useful for competition and championship articles, rather than serving a more generic purpose. Such a renaming would serve to free up "Infobox curling" for some other future purpose that may present itself, though it would still serve as a redirect until such a time. I'll leave this up a week, and make the change if there are no objections. — Huntster (t @ c) 21:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

World Senior Curling Championships articles
Should the World Senior Curling Championships articles be split into Men's and Women's articles (e.g. World Senior Curling Championships – Men's tournament) or should they be condensed into one article, as seen for the 2010 World Senior Curling Championships article? I bring this up for two reasons: 1) It's a little hard to navigate the page if both tournaments and all of their details are placed in one long article, and 2) Noting the champions of both Men's and Women's tournaments in the Curling infobox is very annoying (see 2010 championships page) and it's too much of a hassle to alter the curling infobox to suit this need. I strongly advocate having the pages split, but I just wanted the okay from all of y'all before I/we plan to do this. Thanks. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Splitting them off makes sense to me. Canada Hky (talk) 06:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That infobox wasn't even filled out properly. It should look like the one at 2010 Canadian Senior Curling Championships. I'm leaning towards opposing the splitting of all these articles, but I'm not passionate about it, so I won't argue against the majority. -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've changed the infobox so that it is filled out like the one at the 2010 Canadian Senior Curling Championships. Thanks for that tip. Regarding the splitting of the articles, we can still wait and see what everyone else thinks, as there is still quite some time. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 15:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Kevin Park (and other curlers) are driving me nuts!
In the last two days alone, three curlers have edited their own articles. James Dryburgh, Michelle Englot and Kevin Park. The latter is driving me nuts. He emailed me complaining about his article, after he vandalised my profile page. Please see the history to see what's going on. I've protected the page to prevent him from further meddling, so I'd like to see some discussion on the talk page. Apparently, he is upset that it had said he had limited success from 1995 to 2008, and wanted it changed to "a lot", siting finishing 2nd place in the WCT money rankings in 1996. -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:54, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ugh, well he seems to be satisfied with it now, and will even link to it on his facebook page. I am concerned though, he said it's important for sponsorship reasons. Anyways, it's not the first time curlers have edited their own articles, I've had problems with other in the past. -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:12, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't noticed it yet, but I'll keep an eye out. The least he could do was add a picture.  ;)  Canada Hky (talk) 04:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm emailed him asking him to upload one if he wants. :) -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

A new season is upon us
Hello project members, a new season is upon us. Please check out/expand 2010-11 curling season for more details. -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Sponsorship titles in Wikipedia articles
On the Project Page it is written that sponsorship titles should be included in the wikipedia article. When I created some pages for badminton competitions I included the sponsors name in the title of the wikipedia article. However, another user has changed the titles of articles stating that wikipedia does not allow sponsors in the titles of articles. However, I know from writing many curling pages that Ford, Capital One, and other sponsors appear in the titles of curling articles. Is it true that sponsors should be left out of the titles? --SargentIV (talk) 13:41, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * We've had debates over this, (see Talk:Tim Hortons Brier). Because of the nature of curling, sponsors are very important, and events are usually referred to in the media with the their title sponsor. For example, one refers to the Scotties Tournament of Hearts, very rarely do you hear just "Tournament of Hearts". This is to the point that it is referred to as the "Scotties" colloquially. I say, we use a case by case basis. Events such as the World Juniors don't need sponsor titles, because no one calls them by their sponsor title. -- Earl Andrew - talk 14:58, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Curling articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release
Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Curling articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 22:20, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

2010 European Curling Championships
Looking at the upcoming 2010 European Curling Championships, do you think that this should be split into a men's/women's tournament? If you take a look at the 2009 European Curling Championships page, it's pretty long, and the outline of the sections goes to 1.1.1.1. After a while, the page does become very confusing to navigate. So I'm proposing that the 2010 European Curling Championships page and future pages have the men's & women's tournament subpages if there's going to be that much content so that it can be more organized. Same for the 2011 World Senior Curling Championships (ref. to 2010 WSCC). Maybe we can make a decision for these types of long articles to utilize subpages for them? It'd make it loads easier. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 04:23, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * So I went ahead and separated them into men's and women's tournaments. Hopefully that'll be fine. Also, if you all would like, we could split the men's/women's tournaments further into Groups (A/B/C), but that's just a suggestion. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 04:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the initiative to split the pages. I agree that the 2009 pages were too long and needed to be split. With regards to dividing the various groups into different pages my suggestion is to wait and see how this year's wikipedia entry pans out and then we can make a decision about dividing the two genders into individual group pages.--SargentIV (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Looking at the schedule, I think it'd be in the best interest if we split the gender pages into group pages. If we want to be as detailed as possible in covering the ECC, then we'd want to have the split pages so that we can be both detailed and organized. Of course, there is the issue of how this would affect future ECC pages, and I'm not sure what we would want to name the pages if we do split.
 * Also, as a side question, do you think the small summaries that are posted on the 2010 ECC front page for each gender's tournament (ex. the women's tournament section) are good? Any suggestions for anything else to add? And if we do some split for the gender pages, would we want to implement something like that on the gender pages? Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 21:14, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding the men's Group B tournament, how should I split up the draws? Should they be by date or by group? I ask because there are 6 games a day, 4 for one group and two for another. The groups alternate 4, 2, 4, 2, etc. Please respond soon, I'd like to be able to get a more finalized decision on the design. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Per SargentIV's suggestion, should we try to reach a consensus on splitting the gender pages into group pages? Thanks. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 08:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Hammer & hammer double redirect
Hi there. So the double redirect for the hammer is starting to bug me. When I put double brackets + "X" + double end brackets, it gives me "1. REDIRECT Template:Hammer," which is annoying. I'd rather have it display the less-than-favorable than the annoying text. Can it be fixed? Should we use the or  in the meantime (especially for the ongoing 2010 ECC)? Also, do we still have to have the text "hammer" following ? Thanks. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 04:36, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe the only reason you were seeing that is because the X redirect had been nominated for deletion. Everything should be fine now, though I'd suggest not using the X shortcut in the future and changing the existing instances when you see them. — Huntster (t @ c) 06:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Canadian/American flags for the WCT
So I'm slightly confused about when to use the Canadian/American national flag as opposed to the individual provincial/state flags for spiels on the World Curling Tour. I think Earl Andrew commented that Canadian provincial flags should not be used in events outside of Canada, but I'm still not sure whether or not provincial flags should be used and where they should be used..

For example, the 2009 World Cup of Curling is held in Canada, but it uses the Canadian flag for the Canadian rinks, which are from all over the place. Is that because it's an "international" event? Should all "international" events follow this convention?

Just a little technical question that's been bothering me. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 04:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I would imagine the usage would entirely depend on the scope of the tournament. If it was an in-Canada or in-US event, then more localised flags could be used; if the event is of a multi-national nature, then country flags should probably be used. Of course, this is just my opinion. — Huntster (t @ c) 05:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Huntster. I'd say that if at least 50% of the teams are from a country, then we should use state/provincial flags. Also, if we're dealing with British teams, then we should always use the home country's flags (Scotland, England, Wales) as opposed to the UK, unless for some reason the team is from more than one home country or it's the Olympics. (I see I used the UK flag in that World Cup article, probably because it was supposed to mimic the Olympics in a way) -- Earl Andrew - talk 11:49, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Lists of curling clubs
FYI, the list of curling club articles for seemingly every province and territory of Canada have been nominated for deletion. See Articles for deletion/List of curling clubs in New Brunswick. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 05:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

New Brunswick Curling Association
FYI, New Brunswick Curling Association has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 08:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Idea: "2010-11 Team X curling season"
Many sports have season articles for their teams, so I was wondering if anyone thinks its appropriate to have individual season articles for some of the top curling teams. For example, we could have one for Glenn Howard (See example), Kevin Martin, Ferbey/Gushue, Kevin Koe, Jeff Stoughton, etc. -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:13, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Not a bad idea, that might help with the analysis of individual teams' performance in the season and informational purposes. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it, but before starting out, we'd need a defining line for what level of players get the season articles, and what doesn't. Canada Hky (talk) 14:37, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Curling at the 2011 Winter Universiade
I need a little help with finding the teams that will be competing for their respective countries at the 2011 Winter Universiade. It'd also be best if there were citations of where the information came from (e.g. the British and Canadian team entries) so that there could be some sort of verification, since there's not much information out there about the Universiade curling tournament in the first place. There's been another contributor to the team rosters, but I'd like a little verification so that we could eliminate any speculation. I'm hoping to expand this page (and all others that I've worked on) to its maximum potential. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

2011 United States National Curling Championships
I've been working on creating and improving articles for the 2011 United States Women's Curling Championship and the 2011 United States Men's Curling Championship. As you can probably see from the other pages that I've created, I want to create articles that can have as much detail as possible. In this case, that involves detailing the qualification processes for the championship finals. I wanted to get some input on whether I should have a "sub-article" for the qualification process(es), since it is quite complicated. I thought about making a sub-article for the men's nationals page, where there would be a "See also:" link for the Road to the Nationals section. That would probably go for the women's nationals page, although there is less to cover regarding the qualification process since there are so few teams signed up (13, to be precise). Any and all input will be appreciated. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 08:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't remember there being a qualifier for the women's last year. I guess the interest has increased somewhat. Do remember the whole controversy last time about listing the entire lineups. I would be in favour of trying to list them all again, but I am sneaky like that. -- Earl Andrew - talk 23:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been reading up about that on your talk page, and it seems to be pretty hard to work around... I'd like to list all the teams too, and I have most/all of the information to list them, but after reading about that, I'm a little queasy about listing them. Do you think that we should list them and create a separate page for nationals qualification for men's & women's? Also, if you could help me with checking the qualification processes and seeing if they are correct, that'd be great. I'm a little confused about the women's challenge round and how that will play out. Thanks, and Merry Christmas! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:46, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * My guess is as good as yours about the process. I can only vouch for Ontario's, as that's where I live. But, I will be willing to help out. As for qualification pages, if it were me, I wouldn't create a separate page, but I wouldn't oppose such a move. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, the guy who opposed the listing of all the names is still kicking around on Wikipedia, so list them at your own risk. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:13, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * After thinking about it for a little bit, it seems that it'll be safest to post the team information for the regionals/challenge rounds after they have taken place. After all, your discussion did take place before the actual nationals event. That way, there could be some sort of privacy in that sense, but we would still have a complete article. But I still think it's a good idea to post the full line-ups for the teams actually going to nationals. By the way, what was the final decision on that whole issue? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:29, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That we could only list skips names, and those other players who had articles. -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:54, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Even following the end of the event? Because I had hoped to give a little more coverage to the whole process. Is it not acceptable to list the whole team line-ups for the men's and women's teams then for the finals (like so)? and the regionals (following the end of the event)? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:41, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I would say not, but I want to stress that if you do I will not complain one bit. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Are certain tournaments notable or not?
I'm wondering if a couple of tournaments that are regional in scope are notable enough to qualify for an article...

Specifically the GNCC hosts annual championships for under-5 mens, womans, and mixed teams, as well as an open championship. Yes, they aren't national/world championship level, but they are where some of the folks who will be in national championships in a few years get their first competitive start.

Also, the World Rotarian Curling Championships...notable enough or not?

I'm wondering if it is or not...I admit it's because my local club (Potomac CC in Maryland) got chosen to host the 2012 championships, and I'm looking for enough notability to ensure a page on the club would survive. Any thoughts? - GormtheDBA (talk) 19:56, 19 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of the World Rotarian Curling Championships. Perhaps a well sourced article would be of interest. Certainly not article on individual events however. Same goes for regional mixed championships. For example, there is an article on the Pepsi Ontario Junior Curling Championships. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:14, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * it's a biannual event, held since 1972 (at least, that's as far as I can source it) where various rotary clubs, generally in Canada, Scotland, and the US, but occasionally other nations that have Rotary Clubs and Curlers, have playdowns and ultimately a championship tournament to post a World Title. A quick google search shows that it gets newspaper coverage at least in the areas of teams that do well at the World Championship, and the host club as well.  http://www.rotaryfirst100.org/philosophy/fellowship/fellowships/curling.htm would be the primary source, but there's plenty of others as well.  I can try to write it, but I'm novice at article creation (I've done some edits before, but nothing from bootstrap), so handholding would be very welcome.GormtheDBA (talk) 15:32, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Interesting. There are lots of curling tournaments like this. There's a firefighters national championships, a police national championships, blind national championships, a gay national championships, and even a world championships for left handers (someday I shall play in this). Never heard of the Rotary club championships, but then again I am sure there are many championships of the sort that I don't know of. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:09, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll work on a page in userspace and see if I can come up with enough to justify...it may just be overexuberance, but on the other hand...when you consider that wiki has articles for things like high school football championships...it really should be big enough to fit...that may just be my opinion though.GormtheDBA (talk) 18:22, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

curlingzone.com down
Hello everyone, as some of you may be aware, CZ has fallen victim to a cyberattack. This has made things inconvenient for me. That's why I donated $25 to CZ in an effort to help fix the problem. It's the least that I can do, considering on how much I rely on the site for information for Wikipedia. I would give more, but I don't have very much money. Anyways, I would encourage others to contribute too, if they can. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:39, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

X vs. x in concessions
I'm just wondering what everyone in WP:CURLING thinks about this. Recently one of my edits for the 2011 United States Women's Curling Championship was modified because the editor thought that using "x" for concessions was "easier to read." I personally prefer the capital "X" because it fills the box better than the x does. I've used it for quite a while without anyone complaining. SO I just want to see what people think about this. I think that in the end, it is to the preference of the person who created the page, and I will respect that person's decision. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 19:09, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello, sorry to have changed that without contacting you first or starting a discussion here. When I mentioned that a lower case "x" is easier to read I am primarily referring to games where the game is conceded at end 6 and there are several boxes with a capital "X" which, to me at least, jump out like bold text. I do like your proposal though about respecting the "preference of the person who created the page". Also, to the person who wrote the below comment, thank you for your contribution, but please sign your comments.--SargentIV (talk) 23:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What do the official score summaries for the event use, if anything? That's what I would go with.Canada Hky (talk) 23:34, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My bad, haven't forgotten to sign in a while. Canada Hky (talk) 23:34, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The official score summaries posted on the results page for the 2011 US Nationals are all in capital "X", and I know that most results from CurlingZone use capital "X", so I usually use the capital "X". I have seen some bonspiels that use the lowercase "x", though. In the end, it's probably just a matter of preference of the person who wrote the page and/or the person who is updating the page. I just wanted to see what people thought about this, since both "X" and "x" are used in various curling articles, and I have no intention of changing any articles solely based on use of "X" vs. "x". Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As of now, I will use the lowercase "x" to edit, until we are okay with the editor's preference idea or until something else comes up. Thanks Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I prefer capital X, and I think we should aim for consistency either way. -- Earl Andrew - talk 01:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being so indecisive, but I think I'll just keep with the capital "X"'s, if no one minds. I think it'll be okay either way, just whatever the preference is. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 04:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that you are being indecisive. I think it is a good idea to follow the format of the original author. With regards to consistency I believe as long as we are consistent within each page on this site then everything should be fine.--SargentIV (talk) 04:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

World Wheelchair Championships in WCC template?
Apparently, the World Wheelchair Curling Championships were added to the World Curling Championships template. Can we have some discussion on this please? I'm not sure how we are deciding to put World Curling Championship events onto the template. If we are to have wheelchair events on this template, then we would want to consider adding the Juniors and the Seniors events as well. I'm not too opposed to this, it's just sudden. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 19:08, 17 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Given that there's entire sections on Paralympic events, curling included, I'd say the Wheelchair Curling Championships were major enough for that purpose. Juniors and Seniors...I'm a little more sketchy on. GormtheDBA (talk) 04:48, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

2011 Scotties
Having 12 articles on the 2011 Tournament, there should be a category Category:2011 Scotties Tournament of Hearts, instead of all articles dumping into Category:2011 in curling. 65.93.15.125 (talk) 23:40, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Forgot to post this when I had created the category. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 02:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Apparently, this won't go, since someone else has reverted the edits that I made for this reason. I'm not sure what the curling community thinks about this, though, since no one replied to this thread. I assumed that this would be okay, but someone has a problem with it, so I'll just leave this up to discussion. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I actually disagree with the anonymous poster who first suggested having a category for the 2011 Scotties. The Category:2011 in Curling is not so long that it is a burden to get through and I found it quite readable. But also, if we have a category for the 2011 Scotties then shouldn't we also have categories for the 2010 Scotties, the 2009 Scotties, etc. and we haven't even gotten to the Brier yet.--SargentIV (talk) 03:29, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

2011 World Seniors
I split the 2011 World Senior Curling Championships into two articles, the men's and women's tournaments. However, the front page looks very boring and void. Any suggestions for what I should put in the front page? The round robin standings? (as a template?) The playoffs draw? (as a template?) Anything else? Just looking for some input, hopefully soon. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC) I know that not splitting the article might have been preferred, but this year, the men's draw for the seniors includes 21 teams, which is ridiculous to put in one page, let alone two. The men's draw is basically like the mixed doubles draws for 2010 and 2011. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:17, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think a mention of the change in format and number of teams from previous years should be included. As well as how the different groups work in a brief overview.  Ravendrop 08:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've put in some more information. The groups seem self-explanatory, and we still have a little white space, so should I include anything else? Once the tournament starts, I think it might be good to include the round robin standings for the groups and the playoff brackets as well, with the full final game. Any other suggestions? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 04:48, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Victoria Curling Classic Invitational
Does anyone know the status of this event? Because it appears that the Victoria Curling Classic Invitational's past winners are exactly the same as the past winners for the Bear Mountain Arena Curling Classic, and I was wondering if this is just a renaming of the tournament or whatnot. There are two separate pages at the moment, so I just want to see if it's right to combine the two. It seems to be that they are the same tournament, so I am going to combine the pages under the Victoria Curling Classic Invitational page. Please let me know if it is otherwise. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Your opinions and advice
A recently discussion WikiProject Council/Proposals/Women's Sport. Your opinions and your advice are welcome. --Geneviève (talk) 17:56, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Glossary - Error?
Was on the page specifically to look up these terms, so OBVIOUSLY not an expert, but aren't these definitions (where I've bolded) contradictory?

Control weight A takeout shot that is slow enough that the sweepers have relative control over its curl; slower than board weight, but faster than normal weight

Normal weight Normal takeout weight; faster than control weight, but slower than peel

(Springtimeflowers (talk) 02:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC))


 * Yes, Control weight is slower than normal weight, but faster than board weight. -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:25, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not what the definitions say right now, though - hence the confusion, I imagine. In control weight, it should be switched to "slower than normal, but faster than board weight".  Canada Hky (talk) 02:35, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Curlingboxes filled with 0's
I'm not sure if this is just me, but I've been looking around and I've seen some pages with curlingboxes filled out with 0's before the game/event has even taken place. Personally, I find this quite disconcerting, since it makes it seem like the game has been completed already at first glance, and it also makes the page look a little busier, and potentially messier. I really don't see the point of filling an already empty box with 0's. I've only seen this in a few articles, mainly ones detailing major tournaments, and these were done by the same user. Please do not interpret these comments as a personal attack, I merely wished to bring this up and see what other editors thought about this. In no way am I devaluing the contributions that this user has made. If the general consensus is an okay on this, then I will gladly concede. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 04:17, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that it can seem as if a game has concluded upon first glance. Personally, I think they are a gratuitous edit which add nothing overall to curling articles. --SargentIV (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I really don't know what the reasoning is behind it. And it's most confusing when end-by-end line scores are being edited and there are some ends that are actually filled in and some that just show 0's. But I don't know what to do to fix this, if there is anything to do. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 23:51, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Results Tables - Friendly Reminder
This is just a friendly reminder to not update Round Robin results tables until a complete draw has been finished and every column for every team in said draw is being updated. Otherwise it can lead to great confusion. We should also get into the habit of double checking the results at the conclusion of round robin play as it is possible that statistics from one draw could be accidentally added twice in one box.--SargentIV (talk) 18:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for posting it up here, I noticed this when I was doing some other events too, but those people were mostly unregistered users or users outside of WP:CURLING, so I'm not too sure what else we can do besides post the disclaimer on the standings area. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 00:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

World Curling Championships page
I think we should consider revamping and reorganizing the World Curling Championships page. In my opinion, the history section is sketchy, the sections seem out of order, the content can be improved on, and the page just looks like a mess. The addition of the wheelchair curling section raises the question of including the World Mixed Doubles Curling Championship, the World Senior Curling Championship, and the various qualifying championships/tournaments as sections or subsections of this page. I would have started to work on it, but I didn't know how to best reorganize it, and I would have never attempted anything without consulting everyone else at WP:CURLING since there would be more ideas to work with if discussed here. So the question is... how do we revamp this page? Any thoughts? suggestions? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:41, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

It would probably be best to start with an outline of how the page might look. This is what I would imagine it to be off the top of my head:
 * 1) History
 * 2) Men's/Women's Championships
 * 3) Qualification process (brief words on ECC, PCC, Americas challenges, national championships, etc.)
 * 4) Other World Championships (WMDCC, WSCC, WWhCC)
 * 5) Qualification process?
 * 6) See also or links to National Championships (as it exists)

Of course, I don't think this will be the final outline. But it's a start. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:48, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * First, regarding Wheelchair Curling and Mixed Doubles Curling I do believe that those need to be expanded upon, or added. Wheelchair curling since it is a Paralympic sport and Mixed Doubles since it has been promoted so much by the WCF and because it could become an Olympic event someday. I do not believe that much is needed for the Senior World Championships. The Men's, Women's, and Wheelchair World Championships all lead to a much larger event, Mixed Doubles is apart of the Youth Olympics program and as such all four are of great significance.


 * With regards to the qualification process, that should definitely be there, but keep in mind that there is discussion of altering the format. Should that change then we should have two subsections detailing the former qualification process and the current method.


 * Regarding National Championships, I'm actually not sure that this belongs on the World Championship page. Qualification currently is done through regions. Links to national championships would be more appropriately placed on the 2012 Ford World Women's Curling Championship page, etc. Similar to how links to various national Olympic Trials are placed on Curling at the 2010 Winter Olympics, etc. Although I will acknowledge that the problem with that is then the World Championship pages become even longer and they already approach what should be their maximum length.


 * I find the current chart for the Men's and Women's World Championships to be in good order. It follows chronological order and it includes Mixed Doubles and Wheelchair Worlds which is important. I would not suggest creating a new chart. --SargentIV (talk) 22:45, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It would be nice to see some more national championship articles. It's hard to find sources, though. Any help here? -- Earl Andrew - talk 22:49, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I do support National Championship articles for Canada, the United States, Scotland, and Switzerland, but I believe that in most other nations the depth is simply not there to merit full articles. Norway for example fields essentially the same team for approximately a decade.--SargentIV (talk) 02:02, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * So? National championships are inherently notable, especially for major curling countries. If Kevin Martin kept winning the Brier every year, we wouldn't say the Brier was any less notable. I would like to see articles on Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Japan, Korea, China in addition to what we already have. -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:07, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not that Thomas Ulrud's team wins the National Championships every year that doesn't make Norway's Nationals not important enough, it's that there are never any significant teams that can challenge his team (aside from Thomas Løvold's team). Please note: I'm not going to stop you from starting those articles. With regards to the Swiss National Championships the Switzerland Curling Federation did have a rather detailed page one or two years ago about their event. I have not checked their site in quite some time so I don't know how much information they provided for this years nationals, but it would be a good starting point.--SargentIV (talk) 02:30, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I heard that in Norway, they just pick the team that goes to the Worlds, anyways. At least, that's why Dordi Nordby went every year. Anyways, if others are able to find the info out there, I wouldn't mind creating articles. I know the Swedes have an outdated list somewhere that is hard to follow, because they have 2 championships, one that goes to the Euros (and dates back further, so was at one point the national championship), and one that goes to the Worlds. Other countries may be the same. -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:35, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * So should the WCC page's layout change? And how? Would there be a specific outline in mind different from the one above? Because even though much of the information currently on there is fine, I just feel that a little reorganization and addition of some more relevant information would greatly benefit the page. Regarding the national championships pages, it'd be great to make some more articles on those. Possibly add that to the to-do list? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 23:58, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * One, in order to streamline the article a bit more my first suggestion would be to shorten the History section by creating a sub-article. There is a box requesting an expansion of the topic and this would accomplish both because a sub article would need to be more descriptive than the current section.
 * Two, with regards to the table of host cities and countries for the Worlds I believe it is fine, but if we were to alter the chart I would suggest creating two different charts. One for World Championships prior to the Olympics and one for World Championships since curling's return to the Olympic program. (Under that proposed format I believe that the second chart should begin with the 1995 World Championships because that begins the quadrennium leading to the Nagano Olympics and because [assuming the WCF used the same format at the time] the 1995, 1996, and 1997 Worlds would have counted towards Olympics qualification.)
 * Three, I would also suggest looking at the World Championship articles for other Olympic sports. I haven't done that yet, but I will do so in the coming days.--SargentIV (talk) 04:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Top 5 player percentages section
Is the top 5 player percentages section supposed to display the top 5 players, or the top 5 player percentages? I was under the impression that it was player percentages (as stated by the section title), but someone (not in WP:CURLING) edited that out and changed it to the top 5 players. Any clarification? Thanks. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:37, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Top 5 players in each position (could be more if there's a tie). Of course, we could get rid of the ties by doing the math ourselves (border line Original research, but I've done it before ;-) ) -- Earl Andrew - talk 15:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Points and Ends System...
Hey guys. I'm sorry. I realize this probably doesn't belong on this talk page, but can't find any information anywhere else.

My club, a new club that has only been in existence for a little over a year, has implemented a 'points and ends' system for tracking league standings: Five points for the win, one point for each end won, and 0.25 point for every point scored in the game. For example...

Now, I've got people crying about it because they think it isn't fair. Do you guys know anywhere online that I might a write-up on this so they'll stop accusing us making this stuff up? Maybe it's called something different and that's why google doesn't yield anything?

Thanks, Eric Cable  |  Talk  14:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I've been in bonspiels that have had scoring like that, or similar to. I don't know if that's proof or not. :P -- Earl Andrew - talk 02:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yea, "points-spiels" are fairly common around Eastern Ontario. It's just easy for the organizer to compare teams who may not have played in a spiel; often only 2 games played.  I've never seen it in a league play though. --Coppercanuck (talk) 00:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

New teams for 2011-12 season
I was thinking that it'd be nice to see how teams have changed each season, especially considering that this season we have Rich Hart and Blake MacDonald retiring and Mark Nichols taking a hiatus. And Pierre Charette is going to move to Serge Reid's team. And more. I had in my head something like the retirements section on the 2011 ATP World Tour page. Any comments, suggestions, ideas? Help to find more retirees/major team changes? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have any opinions on this? I think this would be something that would really add good material to the content of the season-by-season articles. I'll repost this near the start of next year's season if no one has an opinion on this by then. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 03:11, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Go right ahead, of course this is noteworthy. -- Earl Andrew - talk 05:01, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Here is the new section under the 2010-11 season page. Are there any more things that should be added to the list? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 00:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There is of course, many more than that. But, it's a good start. Next year we'll be ready to include each one as they come along. You did forget some women's changes of course, like Cheryl Bernard. -- Earl Andrew - talk 15:22, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Whoops, totally forgot to document the women's teams changes. I'll take care of that right now. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 23:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * By the way, is Kathy O'Rourke retiring this year? It seems like she is, according to the Tankard, but it's not very clear. I can't find any articles saying that she retired, either. Can anyone confirm? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 00:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe I heard that she is retiring, but my memory is fuzzy on that matter. -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Curlingzone confirms it, but I can't find any news either: http://dev.curlingzone.com/showthread.php?s=3af999cb6bd3fad0bea2ae209e92bb76&postid=86719&highlight=SELECT+*+FROM+eventteamtourlink+WHERE+teamid_event+%3D+50756+AND+eventtypeid+%3C%3D+90+ORDER+BY+eventtypeid+DESC -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:06, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess this would be sufficient: "'It’s gotten retirement written all over it,' she said when asked about plans for the 2011-12 curling season. 'I’m going to walk away, that’s my plan today. I can’t imagine what could happen to change that plan.'" Prayerfortheworld (talk) 15:39, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

New Brunswick Curling Association
New Brunswick Curling Association has been nominated for deletion. 184.144.163.181 (talk) 04:45, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What can be done about this? It's already the second time this has been nominated for deletion, and I'm getting a little concerned. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 03:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The article needs to be improved. There are sources out there, but if an article went through AfD once, and was only kept basically for lack of interest - some legwork into bulking up the article would be a good place to start, and the second AfD shouldn't be a surprise.  I think there are enough sources in the AfD as of right now, but the article is basically just a bulleted list with bare references.  If I were unfamiliar with curling, I would probably have considered an AfD myself.  Canada Hky (talk) 18:37, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If it is improved, will the AfD be dropped? I'm thinking that the nominator might still hold to the argument that the NBCA still does not meet the criteria for WP:CLUB, which I don't see any way around. Possibly there is a way around it, but I'm not sure if the nominator will relent. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 22:58, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Whoever closes the AfD will probably look at the article. A bulleted list with minimal references isn't going to impress.  The nominator doesn't close the AfD, someone uninvolved looks at the information presented and makes a decision.  There isn't a way "around" the process, but when an article goes up for deletion once and isn't improved, it isn't surprising when it gets nominated again.  Canada Hky (talk) 00:14, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Something I have done which seems to keep the deleteophiles away is link every single article that I can find in google news search, that's what the deleteophiles do "I scanned gnews and didn't find anything, so delete this" (never mind that not all news is in gnews). So, be proactive, overlink.  Yes, some of the links may be pruned later, but bury em in a pile and they go away to fight another day.GormtheDBA (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Article Guidelines
Do you think creating a set of article guidelines would be beneficial for WP:CURLING? Something like this, except for curling articles. It could give information on how to document scores, fill out infoboxes, etc. and could help to set standards for things that pop up frequently on curling articles. If we do agree on this, I'd love to help. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Great idea, as usual! -- Earl Andrew - talk 15:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've opened up the WikiProject Curling/Article Guidelines page, and I'm going to move some of the stuff from the WP:CURLING front page (like the notability lists, template list, etc.) to the guidelines page. I've also opened the discussion page, so if there is anything that needs to be discussed regarding inclusion of material in the guidelines, content of the guidelines, etc., then we can discuss it there. I'll try to post notifications here if there are any issues with the items in the guidelines so that everyone can get a say. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 02:06, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Discussion on club notability ongoing here, please comment in on this! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:00, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Since there seems to be no opposition to the proposed guideline for club notability, I'll put it on the AG page. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 16:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've started an "Articles for Curlers" section for the AGs, so please comment here on things that should be added to the section. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 00:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Talk has stalled on the AG talk page... Shall we get restarted? There's a few topics of discussion on the talk page, and we can always begin adding more sections to the page. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:46, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Anybody? Nobody? Please help contribute to our AGs! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 06:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I've added a bunch of stuff to the Article Guidelines, so if anyone can read over it, I'd be much gratified. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 04:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Broomstones Curling Club
Okay....Broomstones Curling Club's page being deleted bothers me...so I intend to fix it.

I appear to have suffecient sources to create a page at least as strong as the one I did for Potomac Curling Club, which got DYK mention and has attracted nothing but positive feedback without a single "Is this really notable enough?".

Under the notability guidelines we'd sorta discussed, broomstones should qualify (dedicated ice, hosted nationals, notable for first artificial ice for curling), but as those guidelines are not settled, even within our project team, I don't want to rely on them.

I'm cautious as Broomstones got deleted before, after what appears to have been a very cursory debate and no real consensus. I don't want to get into "delete and salt" range, but I think a good article is appropriate here.

Thoughts?

(and yes, I do intend to do every club I can get my hands on...thanks for asking :) )

GormtheDBA (talk) 16:57, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Go ahead, it seems notable. I hope that if it goes to AFD again, we all at WP:CURLING can help vote to keep it (and provide good reasons too!). But, we should develop a standard for what clubs are notable and which ones aren't. -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I would start the article in your sandbox and then ask for opinions when you have something that we can actually take a look at. I would say those are very lax guidelines for whether a curling club is notable or not.  Aside from the fact that Broomstones hosted nationals, all of that info is already included in Grand National Curling Club.  I think improvements to that article would be a better place for this info, rather than a bunch of stubs referenced to primary sources (as Grand National is).  Canada Hky (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem with improving GNCC's article is that the GNCC is, essentially, our regional organization, not an actual club with location, etc. Individual clubs have claims to fame, and a place in their local communities...most meet notability IMO.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by GormtheDBA (talk • contribs) 20:35, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * During the last AfD no one stepped up to prive notability, so I would say that it isn't inherently notable. As I said - write and source the article in your userspace and we can better express an opinion.  I am not saying it isn't notable, but my search of news sources didn't reveal anything much past the fact that it exists.  If you have the sources, then go for it.  There are lots of things which have a "claim to fame" and are important to their communities, but aren't notable for Wikipedia.  Project specific guidelines are fine, but they don't override Wikipedia's other policies - namely coverage in reliable, secondary sources.  Canada Hky (talk) 20:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The last AfD for this was based on the Google News search, and it's true that there was no arguments for keep. We had a pretty close call with the Articles for deletion/New Brunswick Curling Association (2nd nomination), so I suppose we should be careful in how we approach the creation of new articles for possibly non-notable curling clubs. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, as Broomstones has been selected for the USCA Nationals for mixed doubles curling, that clinches Notable, it's a venue for a National Championship. Will also give external coverage that should handle WP:anything :)  I'll be starting in userspace within the next day or so...still rounding up some outside sources (writing is easy, research, not so much) GormtheDBA (talk) 17:26, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I was able to get the page undeleted via the WP:REFUND process, and have added the links to 2011 and 2012 season nationals events. The article needs more work, but it's back and alive...another save!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by GormtheDBA (talk • contribs) 00:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Another AfD (Evenie Water Curling Club)
Hello all! Evenie Water Curling Club has been proposed for deletion... please head over here to voice your opinion. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Hate to say it, but this one may be legit...I have found no references to the club anywhere other than wiki. If someone can step up and build a good article, I'd support requesting a rewrite period, but I'm not seeing anything to use to *do* such a build at this time. GormtheDBA (talk) 15:00, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I found this, http://www.royalcaledoniancurlingclub.org/areas/09/prv/nsesk/club/EvenieWat48895/ . It's a legitimate club. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * They exist, but there are no grounds for notability. Also, as it is the first paragraph of the article is basically copied and pasted from the web page you linked.  Canada Hky (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I am floating a trial balloon to suggest a redirect (to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_curling_clubs_in_Scotland) rather than a delete. Suggest folks show support for the concept. GormtheDBA (talk) 13:43, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we're going to get past this one...I found a couple of other references that look to be good enough, and now there's no one saying delete...looks like we saved one...although the article itself is crazy ugly and needs work in a BAD way.144.183.31.2 (talk) 18:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * AdD officially ended with a KEEP. Basically, this is as bad of an article as we can get that still will stand, I think...so let's make sure everything we do from here out is better than this (and if anyone finds anything to improve this article, let me know!)GormtheDBA (talk) 13:27, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Allan Cameron
I made an article about Allan Cameron, but it's only a stub. I put in a link to his obituary, which will probably be useful for information. --Peacock28 (talk) 23:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)