Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dragon Ball/Archive 1

Article Naming Standardization
The initial call to action for this WikiProject is to provide a forum to create a standard naming convention for Dragon Ball-based articles, both for article titles and for names used within the articles themselves. Dragon Ball, like many anime and manga topics, have names that have been translated in numerous different ways by different licensees within the English-speaking world (the focus of en.wikipedia.org) and we should be sensitive to these differences while still providing articles that use consistent and understandable names. Wikipedia is not a resource for otaku Dragon Ball fans, but should be useful and valuable for anyone interested in the subject.

Please feel free to add your own comments to these proposals and vote below. The test and proposals as a whole are by me (JRP), and please sign any additional comments.

'I propose that the vote officially'' on June 16. Until then, please feel free to vote, but also to amend the proposals or to add additional ones. Voting should run for at least one weel following, depending on the activity level of the posts.'''

Naming proposals
This proposals are based on discussions that have gone on various Talk pages since I started editing Dragon Ball articles back in 2004.

Proposal 1
Proposal 1 is to use the names and spellings in the English-language Dragon Ball manga, as published by Viz Communications in the United States. (First in the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z comics, then in Shonen Jump, and now in trade paperbacks.)

Advantages:
 * Manga (and comics in general) is a text-based medium. All names uses are spelled out clearly and generally have consistent spelling.
 * This is generally the de facto standard in use right now for approximately 90% of article names.
 * Original form of Dragon Ball.

Disadvantages:
 * The manga is a subset of the Dragon Ball story, as told in the anime and movies. Not all names will be represented and we will need to fall back to an alternative source for the remainder, including all of Dragon Ball GT.
 * Names are sometimes unfamiliar to viewers of the anime. ("Kuririn", for example, instead of the wider-known "Krillin".)

Proposal 2
Proposal 2 is to use the names and spellings in the English-language Dragon Ball anime, as published by FUNimation, KidMark, and Pioneer, and other products officially licensed by them. (With preference to FUNimation, who have the current license and have released nearly all episodes now.)

Advantages:
 * The anime is significantly more expansive than the manga, with many more characters.

Disadvantages:
 * Because names are rarely spelled out, character names spellings cannot always be known. Sometimes, the subtitles conflict with title cards and other licensed media. ("Freeza" was used in subtitles, but later changed to "Frieza".)
 * Sometimes difference in names between the subtitles for the hearing impaired, vs. English subtitles over the Japanese audio track. ("Great Elder" in the former vs "Guru" in the latter, for the leader of the Nameks.)

Proposal 3
Proposal 3 is to exclusively use the Google test to determine which names are most common.

Advantages:
 * Little argument over numbers. The web is a textual medium and so the most common spelling may be the one that we want anyway.

Disadvantages:
 * May not be consistent to anime vs manga. Names could be from multiple sources.
 * Names may change as users gradually update their pages to reflect newer product releases. (However, as almost all DB media has now been released in the US, this is unlikely, unless a future licensee changes names.)
 * Can't weigh "Son Goku" vs "Goku", for example, because one is a superset of the other. Also has difficulty with common words ("Lunch" vs "Launch") which are especially tricky for Dragon Ball's habit of using food words.

Not Proposed
Not proposed, but we can discuss:
 * Use of Japanese names or Romanized Japanese names. This violates WP:NAME, which encourages us to use English.
 * Use of English names from Japanese manga. Toriyama wasn't expecting an English audience and spelled things out for his Japanese readers. Some spellings are not what we would expect. ("Son Gokuh", "Kulilin", "Red Ribon Army" (note the single 'b').
 * Use of names from fandom or "import" products, prior to official translations. If these names are common, Proposal 3 would catch them. Otherwise, it is too difficult to establish notability of fan-translations and fansubs.
 * Case-by-case Construct a matrix of allowed names. Vote on it. Add to it as necessary, but not have an underlying rule that created it.
 * Use an externally trusted resource Use a prominent fansite, such as Daizenshuu Ex to help us set names. We'd be arguing for years however on which fansite to use. Also, may not be appropiate for Wikipedia.

Exceptions

 * I propose that we also agree to specific exceptions, which we can determine later. For example, we may want to give slightly more weight to a name that better reflects the original name pun of the character in Japanese. These should be on a case by case basis. (For example, "Son Goku" better reflects the character's origin in Journey to the West, even though the family name, "Son", wasn't used in the English anime.)

Votes
Please indicate which proposal you vote for or None. If we don't get enough votes in the Dragon Ball community to reach a concensus, then we won't hold to it. Also, rules apply. This is not a "vote", but a discussion to reach "concensus", etc. (We'll use the same concensus definition as used by WP:AFD.)

'''Voting to officially open June 16, but feel free to vote now. Until then, feel free to amend the proposals (above) or suggest new ideas.'''


 * Abstain - I came up with the propsals and have tried to be as fair as possible to them. JRP 21:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Manga or Romanizations - It is the highest source of canon information, so a decently accurate and popular translation of that manga would make more sense than a dub widely known to be inaccurate and make changes to names to make kewl graphics (No Refuge from Rec0.0me) or because they just didn't like the original name and felt like taking letters out. As mentioned above under disadvatages, the various dubbing efforts aren't consistent with each other, and FUNimation dub tracks, sub tracks, toys, related products aren't consistent with themselves. This goes for character names and attacks (all of which were named between manga, anime, and daizenshuu, and many of which were not named in English and some that were had those names changed on a whim). Manga and official romanizations are far more consistent with the original source material and leaves far less room for conflicting information. The goal here should be to educate and be consistent. If someone is more familiar with Krillin and we use Kuririn, it's not like they'll get lost. That's what re-directs are for. And in the process, they'll learn something new about the name, the intended pun, and the series' origin. This also doesn't violate WP:NAME, because between the manga and the officially licensed FUNimation dvd subtitles, translated names are recognized and presented on English product releases. Also agree with the Anime Wikiproject suggestion, Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as. If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here). Otherwise, use a literal transliteration. On top of that, the FUNimation dub is mainly US. There are other dubs worldwide and DVDs are dual language and many anime fans watch the subtitled version (which uses official romanizations of the original names, and these romanizations are considered official by FUNimation as far as the Japanese version goes). The United States isn't the only country to speak English. North America isn't the only continent with English speakers. Users go to wiki and select a language, not a country. This is English wiki, not America wiki. The language certainly didn't originate here. There are English speakers worldwide, and worldwide the original names are used over the very recent (relatively speaking) Saban dub, FUNi dub, or FUNi redub.
 * On the case by case suggestion for preserving name meanings, the Son family name was already mentioned above and I agree. In addition, Freeza better preserves it as a pun on the word freezer than Frieza does. Kuririn is a pun on Kuri (the japanese word for chestnut). Onikage725 06:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Subtitles - I put more faith in Steve Simmons' translations than anyone on the Viz staff, who've been out to lunch lately with localizations that seem to be changes from the norm just for the hell of it or to say "HAY GUYS WERE DIFERRENT!1!.". The flak over Djinn Boo was overblown, but Vegerot transcends fanboy rhetoric to be ridiculous by any standard. Papacha 07:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh, while I agree with you that Vegerott is dumb, I actually give them some credit for consistency. Let me put it this way- FUNi using Vegetto makes no sense for dub fans (though it's a merciful blessing for the rest of us). I mean...the fusion of Vegeta and Kakarott = Vegetto? Where does the "o" come from again? Technically they shoulda called him Vegett :p Onikage725 15:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there a list somewhere of the subtitled names? I haven't been buying the new books (I have them in Japanese, which I can't properly read), so didn't notice. That would have swayed my vote. Perhaps you should add this above as "Proposal 4"? JRP 13:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The subtitled names are the accepted romanizations, I believe. Viz uses most of them, but not all. Notable exceptions- Boo/Buu, Vegerot/Vegetto (this one   was just unveiled), Hercule/Mr. Satan, Pocus/Pui Pui, and Cultivars/Saibaimen. If there are others let me know or add or w/e. I know there are also a few names that are correct technically, but are the Chinese equivolent. One example is they use the term "chi" when "ki" is the word used in the original works. There are some cases where they change a spelling to try to make the pun more recognizable to american audiences, like most of the Ginyu. To be fair, I'm not sure which spellings the subs went with either (like Gurd or Gurudo, Jheese or Jiisu, Reacoom or Rikum). Otherwise they seem to pretty much coincide aside from filler, movie, and GT material of course. Oh, also note Mr. Satan is used in English as well, all the time in the subs and in the uncut episodes. Hercule is used in the Viz manga and in the edited-for-tv episodes. Onikage725 15:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Canon or Not Canon: GT
Can someone provide a link where either Toei Animation or Akira Toriyama state whether Dragon Ball GT is canon or not?

If not, then what do people here think? TJ Spyke 05:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

very interesting, i found the translation of what he wrote on the dragonbox

"ドラゴンボールDVD BOXを買っていただいたみなさん、ほんとうにありがとうございます. I am truly thankful to all of you who bought this Dragon Ball GT DVD Box.

連載していた　ドラゴンボールが無事終了し、本来なまけもののボクは　やっと　しめきり地獄から解放されめちゃめちゃ　喜んでいました. Having quietly ended Dragon Ball in serialization, I, who am lazy by nature, was happy to finally be liberated from Deadline Hell.

テレビアニメの方はもうすこし続けたいとのことでしたが、ボクはもうこれ以上は…. というわけでドラゴンボールのアニメはストーリーも含め、すっかりアニメスタッフの方々におまかせすることになったのです. The people from the TV anime were wanting to continue just a little further, but since I didn't want to do any more than I already had, I ended up leaving everything, including the story, up to the people on the anime staff.

それが『ドラゴンボールGT』です. That is "Dragon Ball GT".

GTというのはクルマ用語で「グランツーリスモ」つまり速くて高性能なクルマってことですが、この場合は宇宙を駆けまわるっていう設定でしたので「グランドツーリング」壮大な旅という意味を込んでGTとしました. "GT" is an automotive term, "gran turismo" -- in other words, a fast, powerful car. But in this case, since the plan was to be running all around the universe, I made it GT, carrying the meaning of a great journey, "grand touring."

GTでボクがやったことといえば　このタイトルと最初の主要メンバー、一部のメカデザインと数枚のイメージカットだけですが、ずっとドラゴンボールを続けていただいてきた優秀なスタッフのみなさんなので　安心して　おまかせすることができたのです. In GT, the only contributions that I made were the title, the initial main character designs, some of the mecha designs, and a number of image cuts. But thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball, I was able to relax and leave it to them.

とくに、アニメーターの中鶴くんは　すごい腕前で、ボクの絵のクセなんかをあっというまに会得してしまい、ときどき自分でも　このキャラデザインを描いたのは、ボクか？中鶴くんか？　などとわからなくなることがあったりするぐらいです. In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is so skilled, and has such understanding of the peculiarities of my drawings, that there have been times that even I have been like, "Did I draw this character design, or did Nakatsuru-kun?," not being able to tell the difference.

たとえば　このGTに登場する『スーパーサイヤ人４』というのは中鶴くんのデザインで、上に描いた絵は、ボクがそれを見て描いた　似顔絵なんです. うまく描いたでしょうか？ For example, "Super Saiyan 4," which appears in GT, was Nakatsuru-kun's design. The image I drew above is the likeness I made after looking at it. Did I do a good job?

原作　ドラゴンボールの　壮大なサイドストーリーであるドラゴンボールGTを　ボクといっしょに楽しく観ていただければ　幸いです. If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased.

鳥山明 Akira Toriyama"

Membership?
Hi. I'm just chiming in to note that there is no section on the main page for members of this project to add their names to join. Most other projects have such a section on the project page. Thought you might like to know, that's all. Badbilltucker 14:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Project Directory
Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:
 * User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
 * User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
 * User:Badbilltucker/Science directory

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now moved the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 14:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Help?
I really need to find some help.

The Krillin page has a problem in it. Under the GT section of his page, it gives trivia and no information on Krillin in GT. I fact, it only shows trivia related to him in Dragonball and DBZ. Once again, I just need some help. I can't write this, but I assume someone here can take care of it. Ultimen 02:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)