Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dragon Ball/Archive 3

Garlic Junior
Should we merge him too? His article's just a plot summary with some attacks listed-- SU IT  19:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not against it. Nemu 19:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Same here. While we're on the subject of movie characters, what about Coola and Broli? Takuthehedgehog 20:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should keep Broly. Unlike most other movie characters, he actually has something to write about besides just a plot summary. // Decaimiento Poético  20:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What does he have to write about? His article is just a plot summary, list of forms, a very brief list of abilities, and a list of video game appearences. A character who wants to kill someone just because they cried near them as a baby, and whose dialoge consists of mostly cries of "Kakarotto!" doesn't have very much depth, and thus, not much to write about. There are other characters who are a lot more important and have a lot more to write about then Broli that don't have their own articles, so why should Broli? Because at birth he had a power level that was over 9000? Because he's a saiyan? Because he's "OMG TEH ROXXORS!"? Takuthehedgehog 20:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * They're fine. If we truly wanted to, I'm sure we could find concept and creation references for them. Plus, they're notable enough. The story and attacks thing is only one side of the argument because, unfortunately, that's what all of the characters currently break down to. Nemu 20:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but characters whos appearences are so brief don't have enough to write about. That's why we got rid of Raditz, Nappa, Captain Ginyu, Zarbon, Dodoria, and tons of other characters who have more to talk about, but still not enough to talk about. Besides, the movie character's histories are already summed up on the pages for the actual movies. Takuthehedgehog 20:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We got rid of those characters for a variety of reasons, not just length. They are minor plot character made to stall for the major villains, there is no possible extra non-cruft information for them, all they have is just the plot summaries. These two on the other hand can easily have enough out of universe info (as long as the interviews that I always see AT talking about them in aren't fake), and are more important than those guys(Movie villians move up in importance in at least my book). Nemu 20:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Basically, when I judge an article, I try to tell if it has the potential to become at least a GA. I see those to as having the potential, though actually obtaining it is a whole other story, The characters you brought up have nothing that would ever get them to that point. Nemu 20:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

God, shall we just create one page with a list of characters on? What is the benefit in merging all these things? People want to look up information on these characters. One paragraph is not suitable for most. Henchmen yeah but definetly not any central villain or character, i.e. was the main enemy of a movie or important in general, i.e. Vegetto. It's getting to a ridiculous point at the moment at which there will be only a Goku and Vegeta article left.Darkwarriorblake 21:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, Vegetto is in no way important. He served a quick plot purpose, he was fairly cool, and that's it. Most of the movie villians can only rely on the one movie they have for sustenance, so that's why they don't need articles. We're pretty much done merging besides a few more possible candidates. Nemu 22:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We can't let fan favor decide if an character deserves or not an article Veggeto is irrelevant to the storyline after those five minutes of glory he had. -Dark Dragon Flame 22:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You can't just decide who isn't important. The fact of the matter is that Vegetto is important, you know, since they'd have died otherwise.  He's also popular and a searchable item.  Also, Gogeta appeared in movies and the series, granted it was GT.  Gotenks again, incredibly important, he held off Buu for a good long while and thats after the good chunk of episodes of him just learning how to be Gotenks.  All three, searchable items, popular items, things that people would come here to look for and discover more about.  All 3 at the minimum deserve an article, hell even if its a Fusion article with all 3 on the same page.  Its not a fan thing, its a sense thing.  Its a popular anime, popular characters, and a few paragraphs and a pic at the bottom of a long list of characters isn't gonna cut it.  If I had the time to read all the debating when this was apparently decided I would've stepped in then and put a stop to it.Darkwarriorblake 22:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Gotenks is significantly more important than both Vegetto and Gogeta, both of them only appear when required and play small roles in the series, neither of them finished a important adversary or played a major role in a saga besides participating in squash fights. -Dark Dragon Flame 22:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we can. He was important in his five episode(two or three chapters) fight, nowhere else. Do you seriously think Gogeta is important? He had 15 minutes of screentime. How does that make him important? Gotenks is arguable, but as I see it, he was only important in fights, which is nothing we need to go too far into. It's a large anime, that's why the characters are merged. They are only a small part of this large thing. This is just fanboy behavior. Nemu 22:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I was about to say that but then I found out two people were editing the discussion and I had to type this. DBZROCKS 22:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * OH and Gogeta didn't have 15 minutes he had maybe two he came he said some things blasted Jenamba and that was it. DBZROCKS 22:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * About 15 if you count GT... -Dark Dragon Flame 22:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * True but thats still 17 minutes out of 80 (the combined total of A GT episode and Fusion Reborn.(movie #12 for anyone who doesn't know) DBZROCKS 22:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Raditz had more than one episode and his article still burned, and believe me he is a lot more important than Vegetto or Gogeta. -Dark Dragon Flame 22:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think he's against you. Please do try to keep it up, it's annoying to always fix your posts. Nemu 22:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually it's about time the "flow" goes in the opposite direction. -Dark Dragon Flame 22:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Jheese these edit conflicts are really getting anoying DBZROCKS 22:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Can someone point my towards the consensus that was reached that TTN is referring to in regards to Garlic?Darkwarriorblake 18:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Character importance
With all the debates, I think we should make it clear exactly what does, and what doesn't, make a character important. I would argue that the character having a prominent role in multiple sagas should be our main guideline. I would argue that the in-universe importance of a characters actions do not carry any significance. Beowulph 23:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * well I think it would be Resonable to say that an important charecter was present for mutiple sagas or was a present throughout a saga ex: [Future Trunks] or if it is a main villain. DBZROCKS 23:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well what about movie characters? Like Garlic Junior, he appears in the first DBZ movie and he's the villan for a short saga. Coola was in two movies and so was Broli, three if you include Bio-Broli, who wasn't technically Broli. Takuthehedgehog 20:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I never said anything about that but I would say that if a charecter was in at least two movies (Broli and Coola) they should be there except for Garlic because he only fought for a short amount of time. DBZROCKS 20:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go ahead and merge Garlic as it seems like that was the consensus. It also seems like keeping the other two is the consensus(correct me if I'm wrong). Nemu 20:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

What Consensus? Like Taku just said, he appears in a movie, appears as the main villain for a saga, is the only person to gain immortality from the dragon balls and is pretty freaking powerful to boot. Every single character is just a plot summary of their actions plus voice actors and what not, so you can't go off how much they did. Even then, he was in more than 3 episodes and not just a one off and appeared in a movie. By the logic presented so far, he gets an article.Darkwarriorblake 21:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, every character page is like that, but some have the potential to go beyond that. We factor in notability, possible length, possible relevance, importance, possibility of OOU info, and other things. Garlic doesn't seem to have very many of those. Nemu 21:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * excuse my language but so what if whe got imortality? His article as is is just a long plot summary with nothing interesting. But thats because Garlic isn't very deep he didn't fight much and only appeared for a really short saga and a movie. DBZROCKS 21:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Broli is even less deep then Garlic Jr. Broli just smashes stuff for three movies because Goku cried as a baby. Garlic Jr wants revenge for his father, who wasn't chosen to become Kami (god) of Earth. If you add up the length, Garlic Jr.'s Movie and Saga is about the same length as the three Broli movies. Besides, none of the movie characters have much depth. With Garlic Jr we could also talk about how he doesn't fit into the anime timeline, even though he appears in the series. Takuthehedgehog 17:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There was a consensus. I think four to six people up there agree. We aren't talking about depth of a character(though Garlic is still shallow compared to thousands of others). We're talking about all of the qualities I stated somewhere here. Garlic has very few of those. Talking about how he doesn't fit into the anime timeline is OR. Nemu 17:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's five to two, which is enough for something as small as this. Nemu 17:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes but Garlic barely did anything his henchmen fought for much longer than he did and to add to that his article is just a loooooooooooooong plot summary. Its plot summary is longer than the one for the movie. He'll be much better off merged. DBZROCKS 20:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

So they're important if they fight a lot? He was in 9 episodes and a movie, both of which he featured as the core super villain and came pretty close to winning both times as well. He has relationships with Kame, Goku, Gohan and is fairly interesting to boot. So yes, he deserves an article.Darkwarriorblake 20:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * He already has and article right here but its just a long plot summary there is nothing else but his 9 episodes and movie to talk about He was only in 1 video game and thats pretty much it. He was a throwaway villan lets leave it at that. DBZROCKS 01:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But that's what Broli and Coola are, but instead of returning for a saga, they each came back for a sequal. I don't see how Broli's and Coola's plot summaries makes for a better article then Garlic's. Takuthehedgehog 08:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with TTHH, seems inconsistent. Broli and Coola certainly don't go through any growth or have much in the way of complicated motives.  This is why I'm advocating something of a "checklist" approach when determining if a character is major or not. Beowulph 14:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Power Level (Dragon Ball) article nominated for deletion
Just tought you would be interested. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.138.193.158 (talk) 03:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Cheers. Everyone please remember that AfD isn't a vote, and that informating a project of an article being nominated is not an invitation to go and vote "wtf keep ilikeit". --Deskana (talk)  04:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I doubt that would help anywhey. The way the discussion is going Power level (Dragon Ball) is as good as gone. DBZROCKS 21:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Update Powerlevel has been deleted. may its articlehood rest in peace. DBZROCKS 12:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Giving the project focus
I was wondering whether adopting an approach similar to what the WP:PAC used to do might be a good idea. I generally found it quite easy to update articles in PAC because there was a strict guideline as to page layout. I realise it's not as easy to list important DB articles as it is to list important Pokémon articles (the obvious being 1 through n articles on Pokémon). Perhaps this would help give the project some extra focus? --Deskana (talk)  04:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Burdock
I think his article has enough information to warrant an article for himself. We could also merge his team into his article. It has more info than Pan's article. Superior1 04:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * He was only around for a movie and a single panel in the manga. More important characters such as Raditz and Nappa have been merged to the list, so why keep a character only around for roughly 45 minutes (I don't remember how long the movie was)? Why'd you bring up Pan? And merging his team to his article just doesn't make sense-- SU IT  04:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Burdock wouldn't work he was only in a movie and a panel of the manga. His page would just be a movie summary with a pinch of fancruft bad idea. Pan's article is just not being worked on she has plenty of info; she was around for 65 episodes which is around 1300 minutes. DBZROCKS 12:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So explaining why Toriyama put him in the manga is fancruft? Superior1 22:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * no i never said that. all im saying is that when articles are on charecters that are not very important random stuff starts to turn up. DBZROCKS 22:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Reaching Consensus
Hello there once again fellow contributors. I've been thinking for the past two days now, and i've decided to "temporarily" accept Vegetto as he is now. However, i'm going to add as much information about him as possible within the section he is in now. If the section becomes too long, but the information within it is verifiable and just, then there is no question he needs his own article! I appreciate the support if you all could provide it! Thank you very much. Gooden 07:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * He already had his own article but it was just a long plot summary. Methinks you still don't get he was around for 2 manga chapters, there are charecters who were in twice as many but still got merged. don't take this as a personal attack but you just need to give this up. DBZROCKS 12:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep. I think you also need to learn that Wikipedia doesn't revolve around you and whether or not you "temporarily accept" something doesn't matter. --Deskana (talk)  21:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Dragonball Z
I've been noticing that Dragonball Z has been vandilised repeatedly lately. You think we could protect it, at least for a little while? DBZROCKS 20:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There's probably not quite enough activity to sprotect it at the minute. --Deskana (talk)  21:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. Im glad at least that the vandilism isn't that bad. DBZROCKS 21:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Saga names
Should we be using American names (Tien Shinhan Saga) or Japanese names (Tenshinhan Saga)? This would apply to the Tenshinhan and Baba articles. Beowulph 00:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well since we are are already using mostly Manga traslations we might as well use the Japenese names. DBZROCKS 00:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually for USA only Sagas that Funimation is producing, like how they broke the main sagas down into what I like to call sub-sagas, then we should just use the Funimation title name, same as we do for the movies and other saga. Basically what saga it says on the box. For the rest like the summaries and plots then that is for Translation and japanese only as we do now. Heat P 11:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Which ones are Funimation? Beowulph 16:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Dragon Ball
 * 1. Son Gokū Appears! (Episodes 1~28) Original
 * Emperor Pilaf (Episodes 1~13) - Funimation
 * Tournament (Episodes 14~28)- Funimation


 * 2. Showdown! Red Ribbon Army! (Episodes 29~68) Original
 * Red Ribbon Army (Episodes 29~45) - Funimation
 * General Blue (Episodes 46~57) - Funimation
 * Commander Red (Episodes 58~67) - Funimation
 * The first episode in the Fortuneteller Baba Saga(Episode 68) - Funimation


 * 3. White Heat! 22nd Tenkaichi Budōkai (Episodes 69~101) Original
 * Fortuneteller Baba (Episodes 68~83) - Funimation
 * Tien Shinhan (Episodes 84~101) - Funimation


 * 4. Fierce Fighting! Piccolo-Daimaō (Episodes 102~132) Original
 * King Piccolo (Episodes 102~122) - Funimation
 * Episodes 123~132 of the Piccolo Jr saga - Funimation


 * 5. Struggle to the Death! 23rd Tenkaichi Budōkai (Episodes 133~153) Original
 * Piccolo Jr. (Episodes 123~153)- Funimation

Dragon Ball Z


 * ''1. Saiyan Saga or Vegeta Saga Original
 * Vegeta Saga - Funimation


 * 2. Freeza Saga Original
 * Namek Saga - Funimation
 * Captain Ginyu Saga - Funimation
 * Frieza Saga - Funimation


 * 3. Garlic Jr. Saga Don't know what main saga this Funimation Saga was meant to go under as Toei from what I know never put this into its own real saga but I could be wrong and it is a actual Toei saga


 * 4. Android Saga/Cell Saga Original
 * Trunks Saga - Funimation
 * Androids Saga - Funimation
 * Imperfect Cell Saga - Funimation
 * Perfect Cell Saga - Funimation
 * Cell Games Saga - Funimation


 * 5. Buu Saga Original
 * Great Saiyaman Saga - Funimation
 * World Tournament Saga - Funimation
 * Babidi Saga - Funimation
 * Majin Buu Saga - Funimation
 * Fusion Saga - Funimation
 * Kid Buu Saga - Funimation

So since we put the Funimation titled Saga on the saga pages we need to keep it as such and not the Toei saga or translation titles from the actual japanese names as DBZROCKS suggested. Same like I said for the movie titles. If we were to combine the sagas (which I somewhat don't see happening and do not want to see) then I see the translation being used but since we use the Funimation sagas to summaries the stories on their respective pages, we have to keep the Funimation Dubbed or Subbed Saga titles as they are for this is how they are show on the DVDs, VHSs, and Box sets for those pages.
 * Heat P 17:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The saga/movie pages are a bit of a quandary. I think I get what Heat P is getting at and I agree; if they were just straight up pages of the sagas themselves, then there'd be no reason we couldn't use proper Toei sanctioned saga break ups and properly translated movie titles. However the articles seem to be geared towards FUNimation's DVD releases, hence why they're broken down by FUNimation's names and so forth. I myself haven't touched those pages for that very reason. However my counter argument is that these pages shouldn't even be geared towards the DVD releases in the first place, especially considering the DVDs are all getting re-packaged and re-released as we speak, rendering the DVD's used in those articles outdated and moot. They should be just straight up saga and movie pages with DVD's only getting a cursory mention (as is the case with most other anime articles anyway), conforming to the same properly romanized names we use in every other Dragon Ball article, not to mention the fact that because Toei breaks down the sagas far less than FUNimation does, that would mean less articles with more streamlined info, which is a concept I know will put a great big smile on the faces of a few "fancruft wary" editors. Fuad Ramses 09:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually at first I would have disagreed but looking at it again it would shorten the amount of articles as well as put as you said a "more streamlined" to the info. But that is a lot of writing, editing, and merging. It would help but it seems easier to leave them as such. Kind of hard to really argee or disagree. I like the idea of merging but I also like the way they are now as it is much simplier being smaller with much more infences on the "Sub Sagas" themselves.Heat P 22:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Article rearranging
Just adding this here since we weren't done merging and whatnot. I noticed some changes were made between my last checkup on it and the archiving, with all disputed articles being removed, all to be merged articles being removed. Takuthehedgehog 08:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Articles to be kept
The following articles are to be kept though cleaned-up and/or expanded to meet Wikipedia quality guidelines.
 * Android 17
 * Android 18
 * Baby (Dragon Ball)
 * Broly
 * Bulma
 * Coola
 * Cell (Dragon Ball)
 * Dragon Ball (artifact)
 * Earth (Dragon Ball)
 * Freeza
 * Future Trunks
 * Kuririn
 * Majin Buu
 * Piccolo (Dragon Ball)
 * Son Gohan
 * Son Goku (Dragon Ball)
 * Super Saiyan
 * Tenshinhan
 * Vegeta
 * Yamcha

Articles to be merged/redirected
The following articles are to be merged into the designated lists.

Undetermined articles
The fate of the following articles has yet to be decided.
 * Mr. Satan
 * Muten-Rôshi
 * Namekian
 * Oozaru
 * Pan (Dragon Ball)
 * Saiyan
 * Son Goten
 * Trunks (Dragon Ball)
 * Uub (Dragon Ball)

Disputed articles
The following articles have been proposed to be merged, but one or more people disagree.

Project vs. Taskforce?
Is there a reason why we're a full project and not a task force? We seem to be fully contained within WP:Anime and Manga. Beowulph 14:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just how it is. It was more or less designated a 'project' when me and Desire revived it. Remember kids, the project's about a year or so old. Most of us have only been working at this since January =P VelocityEX 23:49, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No way it can be a Task Force it is way to big, believe me task forces usually centers around one movie or video game series, the bottom line is Dragon Ball is to huge. -DDF 23:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Though this Project does seem more like a task force-- $U IT  00:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * After the major over-haul we just went through, I fail to see how anyone can consider the number of Dragon Ball articles we have left "huge." // Decaimiento Poético  00:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We still have quite a few though (for now)-- $U IT  00:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * How? you kind of lost me there. -DDF 00:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, Beowulph, who cares? I mean, lets not worry about simple trivial problems like this. --Deskana (talk)  00:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. DBZROCKS 00:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The point is to try and reduce our problems and overhead. Things like character significance criteria, templates, Romaji vs. English... almost all of our issues are the the same as those that would affect other A&M series'.  I also wouldn't say scope or scale should be a concern for task forces, World War II is a task force of Military History, something I think is a bit larger then DB. Beowulph 01:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually WWII lasted for I think 6 years Dragonball lasted for 10 years. DBZROCKS 12:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So? The amount of time something lasted isn't going to make a difference. World War II is still more important than Dragon Ball, and it's only got a taskforce-- $U IT  02:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Pros vs. cons
Why don't we put it into simple pros vs. cons of moving from a project to a task force?

Pros


 * Standardization with other anime and manga series'
 * A larger pool of resources for deciding shared issues and policies (naming conventions, character importance, templates, how to handle variations between the anime and manga, article review etc.)
 * We then only have to focus on issues which are exclusively Dragon Ball related
 * A selected group of coordinators to oversee the overall project

Cons

Notes
 * I'd like to bring the idea forward to WP:Manga and get their input, any objections?
 * I'm primarily basing the project structure off of how WP:MILHIST currently has it set up. IMHO, they are the most organized project on Wikipedia.  Beowulph 17:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Something weird but can help us out
Guy I was looking for the One piece/ Dragon BAll crossover on Google search and I seen the Japanese wikipedia under one of the selection and next to that is the translation for the page. Well I went in to it and it translated the whole page. Then I seen a name that was weird to me but seem very familiar, Grandchild Sato Sky. So I clicked on it and it brought me to a translated page call Grandchild Sato Sky and as you may notice by now that was the translated page of Son(Grandchild) Goku(Sato Sky). I am still looking through the translated japanese Wikipedia site and I say we all need to look though it. It could help us out a little on some of the things we all have been wonder. So I suggest you guys do as I did and go to Google or some search site that can translated and go through it as I did and find a japanese wikipedia selection with translate this page next to it. Just giving you guys a big heads up for those such as myself that can't read a bit of japanese put was wondering what was said on the japanese site. Heat P 14:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * interesting maybe we could use a translator or something to decifer the text and then add it to the crossover page. Or maybe we could get some guy on the Japenese Wikipedia to translate it. either way works. DBZROCKS 12:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is an example of how different English Wikipedia is from Japanese Wikipedia. On their Saiyan page (called Saiya person (Saiya-jin) they have combined the Saiyan page with the Super Saiyan page. Also on that page they add a couple of characters to some forms and add some amazing and somewhat unbelievible things.
 * -Super Saiyan it explains how the character's thought change not only with Goku but Trunks too.
 * -Super Saiyan 3rd Up grade which they just refer to as Form 3, they do consider Vegeta as a listed character as well as Cell.
 * -Full powered Super Saiyan which they refer to as Form 4. They do not have a list but does consider Goten and Chibi Trunks as Full powered Super Saiyan as well as Vegeta possibly.
 * -Super Saiyan 2 they concider Cell one on their list.
 * -Legendary Super Saiyan it was consider early in production of the movie was to be the original form of Super Saiyan but was not and after GT it was call a mutation. As translated it is call the Super Saiya person of mutation.
 * -On the top of that page in what is call Social History. As we know Burdock, with on that page translated is call Bar duck, power level measured is 10,000 but later they say his power level when he faced Freeza was up to 29,000
 * -Cell is included as a artifical Saiyan.
 * -Broly's resticted Super Saiyan form is trnaslated into Super Saiyan of blue hair (the Blue Haired Super Saiyan)
 * -Last but not less and even to my surprise on this page Super Saiyan 4 with is on GT, the series many do not consider canon, is considered, believe it or not, the Super Saiyan of legend. ya I'm shock to but I am looking at the site now.
 * Just show you a lot of differences between Eng Wiki and Jap Wiki. Now I know their site is just like ours and anyone can edit it but but we can still use it as a reference.
 * Heat P 17:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

....Cell a Super Saiyan, it actually makes sense but I'm not sure if we should list him as one, if SSJ4 is Super Saiyan of legend what is Broly's super buff form that Funimation calls Legendary Super Saiyan? a mutation as in freak? or does that means he was intended to be the original form of SS4? ah my head hurts.-DDF 18:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but that Burdock thing sounds like a bunch of (insert word here). Also just because the site is the Japanese Wikipedia Doesn't mean it is right it may have some more information but it doesn't mean unsourced statements can't appear. Also I think Super Saiyan should stay its own page it would just make the page more crowded. DBZROCKS 20:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting info, but it's been said somewhere that we're not allowed to use any other Wikipedias as references. So we'll need some other sites if we want to prove those facts.

Interestingly, they've got TV ratings. Whaoh o.O VelocityEX 23:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I really wasn't implying on trying to use the actual info. I was only trying to give you a heads up on how they do their site and how they see thing since Japan is where our beloved Dragon Ball came from. Like most of you I was wondering how their site was and how it worked. As for things doing with the translation like Burdock is how Google translated the words. It is not inserted words, it is the actual translation from Google. But as we know one word in Japanese can mean a lot of things in translation. Like how Son Goku is translated into Grandchild Sato Sky. Most of the translations of names are correct form what we use or seen. Like Vegeta is translated into Bejita. Giji is translated into False. Bulma is Bloomer. Just check it out yourself and you see what I mean.
 * If you do not believe me then do this. Go to Google and type in Cross Epoch (One piece / Dragon Ball Crossover) and look for the selection that has ja.wikipedia.org as the address and on that selection it should say translate this page. Please I know we may not be able to use the info but we can use translations.
 * Heat P 13:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Ahhh...regarding the translations, Google I think is translating the name character for character (If I'm right in assuming they translated the three characters used for Son Goku's name). Hence Son Goku = Sato Sky. Plus, those translators are not very reliable =P 75.153.164.26 05:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I argee now but it is kind of strange. Because for all the Son character Son is translated into Grandchild and the Go part of everyones name is Sato while the last part(ku, han, and ten) are translated into their respected translations (sky, rice, and heaven). Sorry I don't want to get everyone confused. Sorry just trying to give us a little insight on something but after I looked and found out the they translate Kame hame ha into Pot Setting wave (just for GP Kame mean pot and turtle) that I see that the translations can be wrong. Just trying to give us some help. But I see I may have cause more confusion. sorry my bad.Heat P 11:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

PowerLevel
on light of Power level being deleted I think we could make a similar article. Instead of powerlevel it could just be Ki/Chi and foucus on Ki/Chi how it works with energy attacks like the Kamehameha and such. Then Instead of adding that list of powerlevels we could make another page titled List of Powerlevels in dragonball. I have already started writing such and article on my word proccesing program and will be able to show everyone what it looks like on this talk page in a week or so. Tell me what you think! :) DBZROCKS 12:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it's been deleted, why recreate it?-- $U IT  02:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

In any case you could create a sub page of your user page and work with it there that way it can be seen in creation process and improvement discussed before the finished product is ready, then when finished bring it here if it's well referenced we discuss it and we go from there. -DDF 02:22, 29 March 2007
 * Sure I'll do that. ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DBZROCKS (talk • contribs) 12:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Update I have created the sandbox page and will probably have more time to work on it durring spring break. PS: im currently on editor review check it out! DBZROCKS 12:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I created a page call Ki power in Dragon Ball, i take the focus out of the numbers and more on how the power work, why is important for the history and i try to do it as an article that can be like the force fro star wars, if somebody can help putting pictures or fixing gramar or making it better you are welcome, i hope nobody delete it like the power level article, thanks. Ykkifenix 19:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah about that... what is up with Ki power in Dragon Ball???-- bullet proof  3:16 19:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved the page to The Concept of Ki in Dragon Ball, sounds more encyclopedic. - 凶 19:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Why must people try to bring this back? This is a small concept in the series that is never expanded upon. As shown by that article, only OR can back it. Also, what's up with the big plot summary that has little to do with the topic? Nemu 19:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Every body is free to give a colaboration, i personally dont think that in the dragon ball page is much information about Ki, i see you didnt like my idea, well, i just wanted to give a contribution, i ask for help to make it like the force page in star wars, anyway, thanks Ykkifenix 21:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't need a page on the Dragon Ball concept of ki. We just need to link to the "real" ki when talking about it. It is a minor concept that doesn't need explanation, unlike the force, which is a very notable concept used in the various Star Wars mediums, and referenced countless times in others. Nemu 21:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't want to start an arguement or anything but i must sayt that Ki/Chi is indeed a large concept. KI/CHI attacks are used in pretty much every volume after 2. An I am not suggesting that it will be formatted the same way as the previous powerlevel article. That one I found was to disorganized. I also think it would be better to just have a page detailing Ki/Chi and one listing all the Canon powerlevels in Dragonball. I doesn't have to be a huge page, there are numerous stubs in Wikipedia. DBZROCKS 00:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ki power in dragon ball redirects to Ki power in Dragon Ball redirects to The concept of Ki in Dragon Ball redirects to Concept of Ki in Dragon Ball redirects to Dragon Ball. --Deskana (ya rly)  00:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I deleted them all. They're really only any good if someone would actually type them into the search box. --Deskana (ya rly)  00:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Dragon Ball references
I recently added references to Son Goku and Son Gohan. I could use some help (adding references to the character pages), however, since I don't have all the manga-- $U IT  02:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've got all of the DBZ volumes, so I can help where needed. Just let me know what you want a source for and what specifics you want (volume, chapter, page number of chapter, page number of volume, etc.) ~SnapperTo 03:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Same here I can help to if Snapper isn't here. DBZROCKS 18:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, good to know. Thanks-- $U IT  02:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have the movies so if any reference is needed from there I can be of help. - 凶 03:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, could someone finish the references on Son Gohan? And start some on Majin Buu?-- $U IT  07:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * i'll start the Majin buu references now. DBZROCKS 11:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Update Got 6 or so majin buu references I'll add more later. DBZROCKS 12:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Sigh
See Son goku jr.-- bullet proof  3:16 00:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It was redirected again, so no problem-- $U IT  01:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool just wanted to bring that up.-- bullet proof  3:16 01:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

About inactive/retired users
If a user hasn't contributed in a while to dragonball related articles should we put them on the inactive list? Just wondering. DBZROCKS 19:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

New Project Members
Another thing just came to me. Should we have some sort of standerd for people who join? Like they have to have at least 50 edits on dragonball articles or something? DBZROCKS 19:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

You can't list a member as inactive just because he/she isn't hasn't edited DB related pages for some time cause he/she can be working in other projects, you can only list a member as inactive when he hasn't contributed at all in a few month about the standard this was discussed befor please read this archived conversation:


 * Can we have some sort of standard? Such as you must have more than 30 edits or so to join? I've seen a lot of users with little to no contributions joining, so I was wondering about this-- 양 복  42 17:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

''There is one (Da Bulls ) that the only contribution he had was singning this page, funny isn't it? yeah we definetily need some sort of standard. -Dark Dragon Flame 17:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * ''A standard would probably be Instruction creep. I would simply suggest removing users who do not have enough contributions to participate in the project meaningfully. --Deskana (Alright, on your feet soldier!)  17:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's fine-- 양 복  42 17:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

- 凶 05:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Timeline Question
Guys and Girls, on Timeline of Dragon Ball there is a problem that condraticts other articles. I know that Funimation said the GT takes place 10 years after DBZ ends and some say that in Japan it takes place 5 years after while others say 10 years. But on that page the date DBZ end (with Goku and Uub leaving) is on May 7th 784 A.D and the beginning of GT takes place in the year 794 A.D. Around a full 10 years later. Just for a heads up Buu's defeat by Goku's Genki Dama was May 8th 774 A.D. The full 10 years before Uub's appearance. So if 794 A.D is the correct time according to the GT Perfect Guide then that would make GT 10 years after DBZ. I haven't read GT PG in a long time so I can't tell you is that is the correct time but can someone look that up so we can correct that on other pages pretaining to the date or how many years GT began. Heat P 23:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Should that article just be redirected? It's akin to PL in its pointlessness and "listcruftyness." Nemu 23:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Nemu, I don't want to seem harsh or anything negative towards you, But how is the timeline that shows the times and dates of some of the most important pieces of Dragon Ball histroy pointless? Also where would you like to redirect this article too? Heat P 23:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * How exactly are a bunch of random dates that only exist in one form of DB media (and in a questionable data book) important to anyone but hardcore fans? It's even less important than the PL list (which was deleted). The page also seems to be plagiarized from both the website on the talk page and the daizenshuu. It would just be redirected to Dragon Ball or prodded. Nemu 23:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * So the three references that are give are questionable? I wont lie since I am deployed now I can't go back to my own books now and check and I do have most of the books that do have dates. But of course a lot of websites have these dates because some use the same references, use this website, or uses each other to do their dates. I myself think it should stay but needs work to it. I'm surprise we do not have it on the project page.Heat P 23:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I don't think this is worth going into AFD disscusion over. DBZROCKS
 * The references are not the only problem. This is not notable, important, or page worthy. It's crufty, junky, listcruft, and plagiarized. This will be put up for deletion if it's not redirected eventually. Nemu 23:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I only brought it up because if the dates of GT is right or wrong, we need to find out so we can fix other articles if they need fixing. Heat P 23:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't need to delete every article that isn't perfect. there is no deadline. If the timeline is not satifactory we can improve it. DBZROCKS 23:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with the page I want it to stay but it does need to be improved. Heat P 00:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Neither do I. I personally think it nicely summerises the plot of Dragon Ball. DBZROCKS now on editor review.

This isn't something that can be improved. If that were true, the PL article would still be up. You would have to clear every reason I listed (and more) to have this stay, which I do not see happening. Not everything needs to be on this site. And, please, if you are going to bother formating the posts, keep it going foward. It's pointless to go all over the place. Nemu 00:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes but this is getting out of hand. we do NOT need to delete every article. A lot of effort went into this article. Its not fancruft all the events happened. Thier is no reason to delete every article just because it is not perfect. DBZROCKS 00:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I won't bother responding to you any more. You don't seem to get that the page goes against various policies and guidelines, and that only deep levels of fanboyism could defend it. Nemu 00:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I really did not want to start an argument. I just want to know the actual date for GT as I asked earlier. That is all I wanted so as to fix anyhing on other article if the dates are not right or if they are. So guys just calm down. Nemu create a vote on support or not to see what others think. Heat P 00:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok lets start now!

*Support I feel that it is need do to it has the time and dates of many important event in Dragon Ball history. It can be improved but it is a ok article. Heat P 00:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC) I just put it up for deletion. It seems easier. Nemu 00:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Suport I support the Dragon Ball Timeline because it summirises the plot of the entire series including movies without being too long. DBZROCKS 00:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Very, very weak Support This page needs to be worked heavily, I will try to add references as soon as I'm done with Devil May Cry's FAC. - 凶 00:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Per Nemu's points-- $U IT  00:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

About Article deletion
Should we put a message or something on the to-do list that reminds about AFD disscussion? Maybe something like Articles in the proccess of being deleted? Just wondering if Im the only one that thinks that's a good idea. DBZROCKS 12:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC) oh wait oops I didn't look at the to do list. We already have that. My bad. DBZROCKS 12:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Redirects
If you are going to keep pages like Gotenks as a redirect, you also might want to keep them on your watchlists because they are being reverted. -- bullet proof  3:16 22:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? DBZROCKS 22:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The redirect on the Gotenks page is being reverted by a user and is becoming its own article again.-- bullet proof  3:16 22:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * check it here-- bullet proof  3:16 22:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh. Ok then just warn the guy. Happy april! DBZROCKS 23:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

About the ordering of lists
I was thinking about the way we have our lists right now and thought maybe if we could order it by charecter instead of dividing it between villians and Heros. Take list of Aliens in Dragonball for instance. We could have it as Babidi Related Aliens Bojack related Aliens, Coola related Aliens, Doctor Myu related Aliens, Freeza Related Aliens, Namekians and Other Aliens. For Earthlings we could divide it up with Androids, Humans and Animals. Also would Piccolo Diamo be listed as an alien and a supernatural being? Same with Kami. DBZROCKS 12:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

SSJ Page HELP!!
Guys I just got through coming form the Super Saiyan article and had to do a lot of vandlism and useless info removal. And I mean ALOT of it. So can you guys and gals help me look through the article and find or fix any thing they truly messed up or missing. Just compare my revision and editing to the vandlised version and see all of the, excuse my language, BullS--- that was add. however if I done something wrong let me know and fix it for me too. Thank for listening. Heat P 23:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help bulletproof. It was well need. Heat P 01:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Aliens in Dragon Ball
It took a while but I finally reodered the List of aliens in Dragon Ball‎ to make it neater. Tell me what you think. DBZROCKS 21:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Cell a Super Saiyan?
This has been bugging me for a while, but is Cell a Super Saiyan? He does have Saiyan DNA, more then Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr even, but is he actually a Super Saiyan? I think this is an awesome issue to discuss, because nobody can really give a verifiable straight answer. --Majinvegeta 04:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No. He just has a Super Saiyan's abilities-- $U IT  05:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I say he is, yup as weird as it sounds his aura when he "resurrects" after being blown up to pieces is definetily that of a SSJ he does after all poses the required amount of saiyan DNA and the ammount of power to wistand the tranformation. - 凶 06:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah I think the aura is just to show that he powered up from his near death experiance. DBZROCKS 12:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is a interesting issues. I was the one that orignial brought this up when I started the section above titled "Something weird but can help us out" about the japanese wikipedia. In their site the Japanese do consider Cell a artificial Saiyan but they also consider him a artificial being of the other races in his cell structure. I wanna say yes he is a saiyan but Cell's appearance and other ability are more of a Cold family and namekian mix. But Cell has had his Super Saiyan aura long before he became Perfect Cell. Remember when he appeared during Piccolo and 17's fight? Its the SSJ2 aura you guys are taking about. So if we was to use are japanese sister site then yes it would be ok but since we can't we juat have to come to an agreement and if we come to an agreement, we have to have a really good explanation why he is considered a Super Saiyan. Heat P 18:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes (in a way), but it really doesn't matter because it cannot be sourced. At this point, this discussion is nothing more than fan speculation, so unless you have a possible source (a true source), you should drop this. Nemu`


 * This isn't a matter of speculation, because you can't speculate that Cell is part Saiyan, simply because those facts are actually sourced. This is a matter of looking at the facts and discussing what makes a Super Saiyan a Super Saiyan. Cell doesn't have the physical form of a Super Saiyan, but he certianly has the power, even the aura. What makes a Super Saiyan a Super Saiyan, is it a combination of the power and physical form, or just the power? That's mainly what we're trying to discuss here. --Majinvegeta 18:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's speculation. You aren't trying to determine if Cell has saiyan cells; you're trying to say that he is a SSJ. Nothing ever states that he is one, so trying to figure out if he is one is OR. It is a pointless fan discussion that belongs on a forum. Nemu 18:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see it as speculation at all, but I will agree that it would be considered OR. --Majinvegeta 18:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Its pure speculation. Its an interesting idea but we can't source it so this is pretty much a pointless discussion. (no offense) DBZROCKS 20:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not speculation. There are facts to say that Cell does use many saiyan abilities that come form the saiyan cells he has. It is not new knowledge. It is already existing knowledge that Majinvegeta sees as a new form. (hint: not OR) Before you go and try and bit my head off just listen. Cell has saiyan cells that gives him the increasing ability of fighting strength from recoving from injuries or near death. With that he is seen using the Super Saiyan aura as well as the Super Saiyan 2. Yes they is no saying that he is a SSJ but remember there a alot of things never said or explained in many things besides DB and are considered fact. Majinvegeta just wants to see if it at less possible to meantion something in the Super Saiyan article about Cell and his Saiyan abilities and that he appears to use SSJ powers. Also Nemu can you please watch sometimes how you come across write things down or mean them. You come off to harsh towards people sometimes and many like in the past have taken an insult or a dislikeing to it. Just sit back and listen to to MJV. She does have some points. Believe it or not it is not pointless fan based stuff. Many people out there may wonder why Cell can seemingly use SSJ power. Is it not a good thing to at less give a good explanation on this, or fix at less on Cell's page, give a better explanation then it has now? Heat P 20:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't want to bite anyone's head off. Also there are many clues as to Cell not being a SSJ.


 * 1) Cell's cell's are from the saiyan saga. Goku nor vegeta had become a SSJ by then.
 * 2) There would probably had been at least a slight change in cell's appearance had he become a super saiyan anytime in the cell saga.
 * 3) Just because cell was strong doesn't mean he was a SSJ.
 * 4) Many people argue that cell was able to increase his muscle mass just like an USSJ. Many Charecters including Garlic Junior Muten Roshi and Freeza have demonstated such a transformation

I do not mean to upset anyone with this. DBZROCKS 20:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No you good. I just wanted you guys to see some points MJV may have wanted to point out. Thats all. Thanks for reading though. Me? I say Cell is everything he has in his system. So to me you can call him anyone of the beings he has or all of them. Or just keep it as it is now. A artificial being or as Funimations says it, an android. I was just helping a Wiki-buddy out. Heat P 21:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I ask again: who cares? Talk pages are not to be used to prove or disprove fan theories unless they are relevant to an article. Unless someone thinks they have a reliable source that discusses this subject, drop it. Nemu 21:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently many people do. So will you stop with your harsh comments. Apparently someone does and if she (Majinvegeta) wants to look it up and bring it to the PROJECT PAGE and not the article discussion page then so be it. Better here than there. That why it is a project discussion page. She brought Cell's apparent Super Saiyan powers up to see if it can be used. So let it be. If you do not want to be in it or like this discussion then maybe you do not need to be discussing it. Heat P 21:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I will be blunt because this is a complete waste of space and time. It doesn't help this site to have people discussing theories about a work when those theories will have no impact on anything here. Where it is discussed has no bearing on its usefulness. If you wanted to bring it up to see if it could be used, that's fine. After being told that it has no point, you should have stopped with the discussion. Nemu 21:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok I think thats enough lets just stop the arguement here. DBZROCKS 21:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool with me. But I will say I do not think it is useless. Heat P 21:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It isn't usless, because it's an actual debatable fact. And if we were to get truly consistent with this so called "theory", then we'd probably have to take Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr off the lists simply because they have less heritage then Cell does. Again, let's not go there, that's just creating a whole other discussion. I agree this should be considered somewhat OR, therefor not included in the article. Thanks for the support Heat. --Majinvegeta 21:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I won't bother posting again after this. You need to separate fan facts from encyclopedic facts. Unless it can be backed, it isn't encyclopedic, resulting with no need to discuss it here. This isn't a general forum. Nemu 21:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand this isn't a forum, but what I present is NOT fan facts. And what I asked was a simple question, nothing more. I However didn't make up the fact that Cell has Saiyan heritage and that his aura is identicle to a Super Saiyan, those facts are actually there in the series. Regardless, I already agreed that it shouldn't be there because it would be fundamentally considered OR and somewhat of speculation (not really though, because it is what it is). Plus I also agree that it isn't documented anywhere that I know of, unless I can find it somewhere, I won't pursue this issue further. --Majinvegeta 23:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

THing is, Cell isn't a Saiyan. He has some fo their genetic makeup and has all the benefits of being a Saiayn, but Cell is a unique artifically created organic lifeform. The fact that he can increase his power to the point that his aura takes on a Super Saiyan-esque quality does not make him a Super Saiyan anymore than his ability to regenerate makes him a Namek. Onikage725 13:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Time to hit up other articles for clean up.
Guys and Gals. I know that we mainly been aiming on cleaning up stuff like vandalism and trying to fix the articles Super Saiyan and Goku but I think we need to begin to move our focus more to other articles such as Vegeta's, Piccolo's, and Cell's. Goku's is nearly fixed and Super Saiyan is fixed with the exception of vandalism here and there. So I suggest lets move on to other articles that needs more fixing and updating. We can't just mainly stick to those to and Gohan's (another we mainly focus on too). Only a suggestion. Heat P 01:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't forget Future Trunks and Son Goten__ $U IT  03:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree Heat. I started revisions on the Super Saiyan article, it' really difficult to do stuff with the Goku one though. I also agree with you SUIT, Goten and Future Trunks. --Majinvegeta 07:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget Coola and Pan. I have cleaned up Pan quite a bit but it still needs work. Also I have noticed that many articles have a lot about the charecter's role in Dragon Ball Z but almost no mention of thier role in Dragon Ball. This needs to be fixed. DBZROCKS 11:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Update Hey is anyone willing to change every instance of Cooler to Coola on the coola article? `Cause its supposed to be Coola. DBZROCKS 12:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah and I agree that Cell's article is a mess. One we should probably make a form and transformations section and take the images in the article to there. Then someone could get us some new images. DBZROCKS 12:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I just started cleaning up the Goten article. I would help out with the Coola one, but I've never seen those movies. Don't plan to either. I'll check out the Cell one, see what I can do. --Majinvegeta 20:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm taking on Vegeta. I hope I am doing on ok job. I wanna make it a little small. Anyone can take a look at it and give me any suggestions? Heat P 20:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea, two personality sections? I definitely think we could combine the two, in fact I don't really know if he actually need one, no other character really has one. A slight mention of their personalities is enough in my opinion. That article is extremely long too, I defintely think that you'll need help. If you want help, you know where to find me! :D --Majinvegeta 22:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No actually I think Vegeta should have two. He is one of the more complicated charecters after all though I do agree they can be trimmed down. DBZROCKS 22:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I already combined the two personality sections, I explained the changes in his personality, that's all we need in my opinion. Feel free to look at it. --Majinvegeta 22:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I went and fixed much of Vegeta's Dragon Ball Z section. Now it is time to go over it and cut Vegeta down to size. (Pun Intended). Hey gotta laugh sometimes. Heat P 00:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * LOL, Beautiful pun. I haven't seen your revisions yet, I'll check em out right now!--Majinvegeta 05:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I, myself and DBZROCKS and Majinvegeta have done all we can for Vegeta's article and DBZROCKS wants to put it up for good article review. But we may need some references so if anyone got any can you add them to the article. would be really apprecitated. Thank you. My next target will be Future Trunks Heat P 03:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Ki (Dragon Ball)
It was redirected earlier, then it was recreated. Anyone want me to redirect it?-- $U IT  03:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm telling you man. Redirected pages should always be kept on watchlists to prevent this from happening. -- bullet proof  3:16 03:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll keep an eye on them-- $U IT  03:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why is it being redirected to that page? The main Dragon Ball page really isn't related to the Ki Dragonball one other then it being part of the Dragonball universe. I don't get it. --Majinvegeta 07:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Vegeto and Gogeta
Here, another one. sigh... keep it on your watchlists.-- bullet proof  3:16 22:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Two words: Speedy deletion. DBZROCKS 22:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It was tagged as "total fancruft recreation of redirected page", but I don't know what page was being referred to. I would delete it otherwise. --Deskana (fry that thing!)  22:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Both Vegeto and Gogeta had their own pages, this is a pathetic recreation of both. - 凶 22:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And that's a pic is SS2 Goku, not Vegetto. Speedy deletion, I agree. --Majinvegeta 22:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ki (Dragon Ball)
I've noticed this article has been replaced with a redirect to the Dragon Ball article. Why? Ki is an important Dragon Ball concept. TTN said that many of us here at this wikiproject don't want the article around. Where did this disscussion take place? Also why direct it to the Dragon Ball article when it has no information on ki? I just want to see if anyone else here agreed with me and wanted to disscuss this. DBZROCKS 23:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * While I slightly over exaggerated, including me, there are at least three who disagree with the page. Not everything needs a formal discussion. Besides that, the only arguments for keeping it are fan arguments or arguments that are covered at WP:ATA. It's redirected to the DB page just so because. The info isn't meant to be covered at all. Nemu 23:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I see that it isn't the best article in its present condition. However it is an important part of the series. Also I do recall the Manga specifically stating some of the things in the article and if I was given the chance I think I could add a few references. Its bad writing could be easily cleaned up if some experianced users worked at it. Also 3 out of the 20 or so users contributing to this wikiproject is 15%. I don't want to start an arguement I just think it would be better if more of our WikiProject users commented on this. DBZROCKS 23:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well DBR I will have to agree with Nemu (which is a rare thing) on this. Yes in Dragon Ball, Ki is a big thing but Ki is mainly of a human trait in Dragon Ball as every single alien and supernatural begin has abilities similar to ki but has no known explanation of how or why they have powers from the start. Yes there are references but not too many. The biggest has to be when Gohan teaches Videl how to fly. With no true explanation on how the aliens and SNB have these powers from the getgo there really is no room for a Ki article. Heat P 00:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Many things are unexplained in dragon Ball. But it is true that chi/ki is life force that can be used for various perposes. Chi is shared by all beings. Majin Buu has chi Freeza has Chi Cell has chi everyone in the whole manga has chi. DBZROCKS 01:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but why does that matter to the casual reader? It should be good enough to just link to the "real" ki article due to the fact that in DB, it's just energy. There is nothing special about it that requires an article (to the casual reader. Don't think like a fan, think as if you had never even heard of the series). Nemu 01:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * True many things are not explained in DB but other than human beings and the andriods there really is not way to explain the Aliens and SNB Ki or Chi situaion. If agreed to do it. It will take a lot of reading to find a way to explain them. You know me though, I may disagree with it but I am down with finding a way to do it. So DBR, friend if you do need help with it I am with you despite my decision. Heat P 01:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think chi can be explained as life force because technically thats what it is. I think it explains why androids don't have Ki because they aren't really alive (i think gohan said this). aliens have it but usually can't sense it without the aid of scouters Which is where power levels come in. Cell has Chi because he is organic but is just made artificially. DBZROCKS 01:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You're still thinking like fans, i.e. too in depth. This information doesn't need to be gathered. The bits about the androids are the only important things that would need mention, but it only requires a few sentences here and there. Much of what you're trying to say is borderline OR also. Nemu 01:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry DBR, but again I would have to agree with Nemu. Heat P 01:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Also before we go any further let see what the others has to say. Even though it is only about 6 or 7 of us that come to the Project page to discuss stuff. Heat P 01:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * My eailier comment was a response to Heat P's statement about aliens and Chi not a suggestion about what would be in the article. We can put a message on user's talk pages about this disscussion. DBZROCKS 01:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool, Go for it man. Heat P 01:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. DBZROCKS 01:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There's really no reason for it. If we keep it, it'll end up like Power level (Dragon Ball)-- $U IT  02:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Finally. finished. telling. everyone. DBZROCKS 02:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont have the episodes, but in DB didnt Mutaito go into an explanation of ki with Goku? Surely something like that would be relevant to. Dunno if that helps any. Onikage725 02:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Pehaps the creation of an article that lists animes/mangas with Super powers, giving brief discriptions of the powers used in the anime? I know, kind of a stupid idea, but who doesn't like reading about any super powers? Naruto could be there, Gundum, FMA.... anyone? --Majinvegeta 02:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That would just be a huge list of trivia. It'll get deleted-- $U IT  02:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree, but I definitely think that Ki in Dragonball is worthy of some noticable mention. Maybe not a whole article on it though. --Majinvegeta 03:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the fact that ki plays a important role in DB, however it will be almost impossible creating a page that fits Wikipedia's standards. A page listing the powers will be kind of a trivia but it probably won't be deleted Superman has something simmilar see here, it might not be such a bad idea. - 凶 03:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Either way, it'll just be a large list.-- $U IT  04:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it'll really be a list. I think the page should more focus on explaining how Ki ties in with powerlevels, what people do with it, and how Ki capacity adjusts due to transformations. We don't really have those explanations anywhere except indirect mentions on the Super Saiyan article. Perhaps a non-specific list for general attacks: energy waves, energy barriers, flight, ect.? --Majinvegeta 05:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

We could make a page List of concepts in Dragon Ball and put something about Ki there. Megatronacepticon 05:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Warning this is pretty long. My apologies.

First I wanna get something out of the way; Ki is the universal reason why nearly ALL super powered fighters in Dragon Ball can do the things they do. This is pretty much set in stone within the series itself; Goku and nearly all the other characters (in the Japanese version mind you, which is where the Dragon Ball WikiProject is working off of) who have fought alien characters like Freeza etc. have directly referred to their powers as being Ki based. They can even sense that it's Ki. Remember that the Artificial Humans don't use "real" Ki, so they cannot be sensed. Freeza and all his vast alien minions on the other hand, as well as every other demon or god that uses Ki can and have been sensed.

Many non-human Dragon Ball characters have either been called on as using Ki by other characters who can sense it or flat out admit that their powers are Ki based including but not limited to Cell, Freeza, Buu, Kaioshin, Piccolo (and just about every other Namekian), and Vegeta, not to mention Son Goku himelf (he’s a Saiya-jin not a human remember?) Cell’s worth noting in that he’s an ORGANIC creation, not a machine like the Artificial Humans, so his Ki has been sensed by others and identified as such. It’s an important plot point, because he is sometimes able to fool other characters by disguising his Ki as someone else’s (because he’s made up of the cells of so many characters).

Also in the case of Freeza and his army (including the Saiya-jin), while they know how to use Ki in a base, brute force manner, they are fairly clueless about it's finer points (sensing and controlling it, weird unconventional techniques like body splitting, blinding light, etc.) or possibly that it's even called Ki. This is also a fairly important plot point in both the Saiya-jin and Freeza sagas, and it's brought up frequently (particularly by Kuririn) in the Japanese version.

Also Ki as a real world concept in Eastern mythology is supposed to be universal to all things organic/spiritual, a fact which has never been disputed within Dragon Ball either. So unless it has been otherwise noted within the series itself (as in the case of the Artificial Humans, and some of the mystical abilities of supernatural characters or magicians like Babidi), characters hurling massive, planet destroying energy blasts are using Ki.

Again this is all working off the Japanese dialogue. I’m aware that the dub for the most part (if not entirely) avoids the use of the word Ki, as well as the use of the very concept itself, and may even have excised much of or all of the plot details I mentioned above. So that may well be contributing to the confusion.

Sorry I know that was horribly off topic, but I just wanted to set that straight for editors like Heat P who seemed to be hazy on this issue (which is an important one for a possible Dragon Ball Ki article). All that out of the way, here’s my take on the actual Ki article debate;

On the one hand Ki is not an invention of Dragon Ball. It is a real life concept deeply rooted in Asian mythology as well as medicinal practices dating back hundreds if not thousands of years. It has been used as a plot device/gimmick in a vast number of manga, anime, and video games besides Dragon Ball. And Wikipedia already has a Ki article pertaining to the concept itself as it applies in real life. So having a separate one pertaining solely to Dragon Ball seems kinda redundant.

On the other hand, it is a TREMENDOUS part of the series in its plot, style, even identity. It's used throughout the entirety of the series so frequently, by so many characters, even so uniquely compared to so many other anime shows that use the concept, that is seems kinda integral to have at least something dedicated to how the concept applies to Dragon Ball.

So here's my two cents; a nice compromise.

Rather than creating a whole separate article dedicated to "Dragon Ball Ki", we could just make a whole section dedicated to it in the List of Dragon Ball special abilities article (since that's where it mainly applies), while being sure to spam links to the main "real life" Ki article and/or the section on it in the Dragon Ball attack list in any Dragon Ball articles mentioning Ki as deemed appropriate. A cool idea would even be for some savvy individual to add a section in the already existing Ki article detailing how much the concept is used in Asian pop-culture (a much needed addition anyway IMO), If nothing else it’s a nice excuse for squeezing in a cheap Dragon Ball reference.

Regardless of the outcome, in whatever form an article on Dragon Ball Ki takes shape, for the love of all things Toriyama, please no fannon or theories; every super warrior who's not mechanical or a wizard is using Ki. Even the funny looking space men. Son Goku himself says so, and that's good enough for me.

Sailor Moon says. Fuad Ramses 08:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hm i think it would be a bad Idea to put it on list of Dragon Ball special abilities Ki is not a unique ability everyone in Dragon Ball has ki. I agree with Faud here (even if some of his points were my own) that Ki is explained. But I also like Megatronacepticon's idea about making a list of dragon Ball concepts. DBZROCKS 11:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't really see the need for a whole article dedicated to "Dragon Ball concepts". Aside from Ki (which isn't a concept solely original to Dragon ball anyhow) what else are you gonna put on there? The attack list seems the best place to put the info on Ki as it pertains to Dragon Ball rather than create an arguably redundant article on it (again redundant because there's already an actual Ki article). True it's not a unique character specific ability, however the attack list also lists multiple characters who use the same technique, so I don't see the problem with just noting that Ki is the universal catch all for all these powers and abilities (making special note of the Artificial Humans using synthesized immitation Ki, or characters whose powers are magical or biological, like Babidi and the Namekians etc.). Of all the pre-existing Dragon Ball articles, this one is by far the best choice to stick in this info (which I agree is pretty important relating to this series). Fuad Ramses 18:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Damn that was long Faud. But you hit on something I couldnt quite put to words yesterday- the discussion here (and the one that took place on the AfD for power levels) seems to stem from general dub watching. Maybe I'm wrong, but having seen both versions it is easy to see how such concepts seem unimportant when watching the dub. Everything is generalized "energy" and the ystical properties of the show are reduced. Likewise heaven is "otherworld" and the dieties are never really mentioned as such and seem more presented as guardian aliens. However in the original text the story borrows from the Shinto religion and the nature of their powers is clearly based on the concept of ki (or qi or chi or however you prefer to spell it, but the word ki is what is used in the series we're discussing). Someone's ki is something of a personal signature, and it is prevelant throughout the series. As was mentioned above, it was a major thing that Cell could mask his ki to seem like another Z senshi's. Ki suppression in general renders a fighter undetectable. Piccolo upon fusion seemed like a new person almost. The Artificial Humans couldnt be sensed since their ki was synthesizerd. It was a major point in the first two Z arcs that the space pirates couldn't sense ki. vegeta gains an advanatage by learning how to sense auras without a scouter. The earthlings had an advantage in that they could manipulate their ki, making a surface reading from a scouter unreliable. Dragon Ball itself has a much more mystical air to it, before the series went more sci fi. If you watch the Japanese version, people talk about ki all the time, and this whole "aliens use ki-like powers through unknown means" is pure (I assume dub-inspired) fanon. If Freeza's power was just ki-esque psionics, how could Goku feel his ki? How could a scouter, which measures ki, universally read anyone if only people from earth are using ki? And someone mentioned The Force in the AfD. What the hell do people think the Force was based on? It is Lucas' conglomerate westernized take on all of the various eastern life-energy principles. Onikage725 14:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info Faud. However I do not HAZY on the idea. I actually think it was a good idea but it is not enough info on other beings besides humans and andriods about ki to create a good article. Aliens can't sense Ki. explained in a few sentences. Cell abilities with Ki. After review and cut downs, it at best is one small paragraph. SNB, like Buu, their powers are mainly suppose to be magical and not Ki based despite the Z-fighters ability to feel Buu's and others powers. Nice info but in still not enough for a good article. HOWEVER I did said to DBZROCKS that if there is a way to add it or create a way then I am down with it and as you have given a way to add it to the Dragon Ball universe then I am down with it being on the List of Dragon Ball special abilities article. My take in short, Article? NO. Add to List of Dragon Ball special abilities? YES. Heat P 17:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Quick correction Heat; Buu's powers are both magic AND Ki based. His standard fighting abilities are Ki based same as everyone else (again this is stated numerous times), but his ability to destroy gods and deities, transform stuff into sweets, as well as his gummy body structure (him being a creature created by magic) are rooted in magic (according to the Kaioshins). Not sure about his ability to rip holes in the fabric of reality; that one's kinda open to debate seeing as how Gotenks does it too. Again, magic and Ki are two separate concepts in the Dragon Ball universe (and in general I suppose). You are I'm afraid to say, quite wrong about the Z Fighter's ability to sense magical beings power in spite of not being Ki. Again going off the Japanese version, when Gohan fights Dabura (who also uses a combination of magic and Ki) he notes that Dabura's version of the Zanzoken (after image) technique leaves no trace of Ki, and therefore must be magic based. Wheras Buu's gargantuan Ki signature can be sensed (literally) from orbit. So to sum up, in Dragon Ball Ki can be sensed. Magic can't. And no it's not that ALIENS can't sense Ki. If that were the case, Piccolo, the other Namekians, Paikuhan, Goku, Vegeta, etc. wouldn't be doing it constantly throughout the series. It's just Freeza and all his goons that have this problem (hence the scouters). You are correct however that all this can be neatly summed up in a simple Ki section in the Attack List article. I'm totally with you there. Fuad Ramses 18:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I meant in my statement the SNB Ki powers can be sensed not the magic basics of their power. Sorry if I misinterpreted that. But I can see what you mean by the namkeians and Paikuhan. So to my other fellow editors, since it seems that a few of us have come to somewhat an agreement on at less adding the ki concept to the List of Dragon Ball special abilities, how would that work for you if we added the Dragon Ball's ki or chi concept to the list? Heat P 19:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Only thing is adding it to list of special abilities is slightly wierd because every one has it. Its not an ability. Its not even special, everyone has it. Also of course magic can't be sensed because its magic not ki. Also Faud what do you mean Majin buu has the unique ability to kill gods? Gods can be killed by anyone that is stronger than them. DBZROCKS 20:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think ki would be better on the main Dragon Ball series article than the attack list, personally. As for killing gods, I believe Faud means that when he killed them they stayed dead. When Kaio-sama was killed by Cell his soul manifested pretty much right away in physical form with a halo. Ditto Rou Kaioshin when he gave his life to bring back Goku. That privelege that certain heroes are given to stay in Heaven with bodies (instead of being processed) seems to be an automatic perk of being a god. And even if they went for processing, would a godly soul be reborn as a mortal? It seems that when Buu killed the Kaioshin he wiped them from existence. Even the two he absorbed, South and Dai Kaioshin, are never seen again despite everyone else he absorbs being set free. Onikage725 21:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The thing is D that with the ki concept is important to DB universe but it is just has too much small information for a good article in accordance with Wikipedia standards. So the only good place for it would be in a special section in the list atricle. It might be wierd to some degree but it could work. It can on the atricle explain the concept of how special abilities work in DB. Heat P 20:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * (light bulb flash) Remember that article we had on scouters? We could add this to the article along with ki suppressing transforming and add some power-level information to the Scouter article. No its not going to go over 2 pages but it would still work better than merging it into special abilities. DBZROCKS 21:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, won't last long. When the old ki and scouter articles were said to be too small, I merged them all with the power level article. That article was then deleted for being "unverified fancruft" and "not notable" (despite the info coming from the manga, anime, and daizenshuu, and on the list everything was labeled as such). If people feel that something isn't properly cited, instead of putting a citation needed note, they seem to label it cruft and delete away. Onikage725 21:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Im not gonna let that happen this time by the time im through with it its gonna have more sources than the Wii article! Also the powerlevel article was puny in the first place so adding scouter wouldn't of done much good DBZROCKS 00:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Power Level
Power level (Dragon Ball) and Dragon Ball Z Power Levels have been recreated after the result in Articles for deletion/Power level (Dragon Ball) (second nomination). I have tagged each page with a speedy-delete notice. -- bullet proof  3:16 23:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * wow that made the old powerlevel article look like a featured article. DBZROCKS 23:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * MY GOD!!! What the heck is that bullcrap? That mess needs to be erased as soon as possible. Nothing in that so call article makes any senses. Heat P 23:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed and nice joke. DBZROCKS 23:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh. My. God. Onikage725 01:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ehhh.... I'm not a fan of Power Level pages in general with regards to DBZ. For one thing they almost ALWAYS degenerate into mindless bickering and personal favorite character one upsmanship amongst (largely) idiots. Certainly not the kind of thing Wikipedia welcomes, hence why they never last long. And secondly... they just aren't that big a deal in the grand scheme of the series. I mean really Power Levels (technically Battle Power if we wanna get nitpicky over proper translation) were used merely as a plot device for what, two sagas? Ki itelf is by far and away the more important subject and Power Levels ought to be a footnote in a Ki article, not vice versa. Point being given the choice between a Ki article and a Power level Article, I'd easily choose a Ki article. However I still say having a new article isn't even necessary; just slip in Ki as it's own section in the Special Abilities list. I dunno why DBZROCKS is so hung up on the idea that it doesn't belong there cause it's not a unique trait; that has nothing to do with the fact that it fits in perfectly as an overall explanation for WHY these characters can do all the insane crap described in that article. I'll rehash my overall point once more I suppose; Ki ain't unique to DBZ. It's a real life concept, and therefore already has a Wikipedia article detailing it's real life history and use. Having another article dedicated to Ki as it pertains to DBZ seems kinda redundant. However there is enough unique (and story important) uses of the concept in the series to warrant it's own section (yes with Power Levels getting explained as well) in a pre-existing DBZ article; and the abilities list is the perfect candidate. DBZROCKS also made mention of perhaps making a whole article about "DBZ Concepts", but the only thing that can really be thrown in there is.... Ki. Hell at this point, I'm about ready to write up the Ki section in the abilities article myself. However if it does come down to creating a new article, then it should be a Ki article rather than a Power level one. Fuad Ramses 08:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd ust say PLs deserve mention within the context of wherever ki and/or scouters wind up (if anywhere). They were a major plot device of the space pirates, who were the major villains for over a hundred episodes. They're around through ep 120 or 121 ( I forget), and the last scouter useage is there (though that doesnt factor the garlic Jr. saga). Also, PLs are just a numerical representation of one's capacity of channel ki. Toriyama shifted the stories into sci fi for a bit, and we werent tracking everything only by how they felt- now we were getting some instruments and mathematics too (and a slap in the face for scinece over mysticims as they were ultimately inferior). Still the two are just different ways of achiveing a similar goal (ki sense vs scouter, "huge ki" vs "180,000!"), and as such should be mentioned wherever the parent concept of ki gets mentioned. As a side note- the general feeling that the old PL list was cruft is just bitterness from ppl used to bad DBZ fansites. We only had numbers from the manga, anime, movies, and Daiz' (all mentioned as such) i.e. ONLY official sources. Whether or not a list comes back for PLs I could care less. I just want that much to be clear.Onikage725 12:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah um it was megaceptitron's idea I just thought it was cool. Also your forgeting that scouters ki suppressing and Transformation are all a part of it. DBZROCKS 11:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

And now they're all gone. Yay-_ $U IT  04:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Something found out.
Well there is a edit war going on at the Super Saiyan page again. Know over the Neko Majin Z main character Z begin a Super Saiyan. Well you have to look at the article to see whats going on. But I founded out something most may have looked over. In Neko Majin # 5 (the same manga number Goku and Z fight) on page 190 we have some special DBZ guess even though it is one panel. We not only have Goku (as well as Vegeta and Buu in other manga volumes) in this manga volume we have Chi Chi, Pan, Goten, and Ox king greeting Z and his sidekick or friend to Goku's house. Just for a heads up if you are interested in seeing or reading the manga go to http://dragonballarena.gamesurf.it and it has actual uploaded volumes to read. Sorry if it seems like I spammed it. But trust me check it out.Heat P 05:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Oy... Coola redirect.
Yet another random user has redirected Coola to Cooler, using the fact that "his name is spelled Cooler on the official website (i.e. FUNimation's site)" as justification. Apparently they haven't bothered to look at the DB Wikiproject page, nor even bothered to notice the trend of proper Japanese name usage in general.

Could one of our illustrious mods here please redirect the redirect (or whatever) back to Coola? I would have done it myself, but there's something weird with this one, as I got a message suggesting I should notify a mod to move the article.

Thanks in advance! Fuad Ramses 21:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed. DBZROCKS 00:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it hasn't been. I think a mod needs to move it back. Why does it seem like such a hassle to fix thee things, yet it only takes someone a few minutes to create the situation in the first place... Onikage725 03:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

What character names will this WikiProject utilise?
Aside from my idea of renaming Majin Buu to Djinn Boo, which names are gonna be used to name the Dragon Ball characters on the English Wikipedia? The names are given all out of order, ranging from FUNimation names to manga names. Since Majin Buu appears to be the best candidate, the names Steve "Daimao" Simmons used in the Japanese-audio English-subtitled anime are the only ones that should be put to use. If this is the case, here are a list of articles/sections that should be renamed to correspond to that: Manga names | "Daimao names" Pu'ar → Pu-erh Muten-Rôshi → Muten Roshi or Turtle Hermit Chi-Chi → Chichi Tsuru-Sen'nin → Crane Hermit King Chapa → Chapa-o Dr. Kochin → Dr. Cochin Shenlong → Shen Long (and the other "Shenlongs") Gyu Mao → Gyumao Yamcha → Yamucha


 * I'm sure there are many more, but this should be sufficient enough as an example. However, does anyone object if I change all of them to Daimao's names? Since I don't regularly edit the Dragon Ball related articles here, you can talk to me at User talk:Burdock for any questions, comments, concerns or ideas. Regards -  ~ I&#39;m anonymous
 * Woah there pal don't rush into this already or it will be reverted. I think we have already discussed this and there is a reason why the names are the way they are. DBZROCKS 11:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Pardon? I don't understand what you meant. Let me rephrase myself: which names are being used to name these characters? English manga by VIZ, English dubbed anime by FUNimation, or Steve Daimao's names? Where has this been discussed?  ~ I&#39;m anonymous
 * Unfortunately we have never been able to have consensus with this. - 凶 15:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What names would you prefere then? I'll be more than happy to help reach a consensus.  ~ I&#39;m anonymous
 * The general consensus was to use romanizations, with a general feeling of "when in doubt, what does Simmons use." I don't think we need to go through the hassle of renaming all of those though. Guymao vs Gyu Maoor Shenlong vs Shen Long really seems fairly minute. Onikage725
 * I don't mean to encumber. I just feel that since you're gonna go by romanizations, at least select one form or the other. Either go by the manga names, dub names (I hope not!), or Steve Simmons' names. Personally, Simmons seems like the best option here. How do I reach a "consensus" to resolve this mess of names? Once this is taken care of there wouldn't be, I believe, a constant changing in character names by Wikipedians (at least not of this WikiProject). What measures be done to take care of this matter?  ~ I&#39;m anonymous
 * What Onikage said essentially. Though I should point out that Simmons does occasionally (and I stress OCCAISIONALLY) get one wrong (Kakarot is Kakarotto. I assure you it is. It's the entire reason Vegetto has his name.) Simmons himself even admits there's a few he fumbled in hindsight, specifying that he wishes he could go back and make Kibit Kibito. Here's hoping he gets his chance to correct them with the upcoming DVD re-releases. But 99% of the time when the situation calls for it, we go with his stuff. I agree that Yamcha REALLY should be Yamucha (plan to attempt to fix that one myself sometime if no one else does). But with all due respect I think you're being a wee bit anal over Tsurusenin vs Crane Hermit, as well as Muten Roshi vs Muten-Rôshi, and King Chappa vs Chappa-o. They're the same exact name on all counts really. Considering how utterly flat out WRONG FUNimation (and most U.S. fans) often gets these names, I think a hyphen or a Japanese/English equivalent word or two isn't anything to concern oneself over. Especially taking into account the larger picture on Wikipedia here; because literally ANYONE can edit these pages, and because the FUNimation dub of DBZ is so widely known in the U.S., there is a CONSTANT flood of people whose familiarity is only of the dub, and often change correct names back to their dub equivalent believing the dub name is in fact the "correct" one. This happens so (infuriatingly) often, that spot checking names can become something of a full time job, especially considering that we're striving for consistency here. Even just a few days ago, someone redirected Coola to Cooler. We need a mod to change it back (please mods who are DB Wikiproject members, someone get that outta the way). In other words, even if you were to go on and make all the changes you list, I can guarantee you at least half (if not more) of them will be messed with by next month. Plus it was a LONG, headache inducing struggle to even ALLOW proper Japanese names in the first place. I guess my point is that while the offer to help is very much appreciated, there's bigger debates going on 'round here than whether or not we stick a hyphen in between Muten Roshi's name or not. It's still the same name either way. So's King Chappa or Chappa-o; the "-o" means "King" in Japanese (they throw their titles after a name instead of before it), and Tsurusenin directly translates to Crane Hermit. At this point, so long as the name is correct, I'm personally not gonna quibble. If you wanna join the team here at DB Wikiproject, you're totally welcome to it. The more the merrier! But if making random checks of articles every other week or month to make sure they haven't been "dub-ized" and "de-dubbing" them if (and when) they are doesn't sound like your idea of a fun evening, then (and no offense intended) if I were you I wouldn't even bother. The regulars here can handle it. Oh and lastly regarding Majin Buu to Djinn Buu; maybe it's just me, but I think that's a case of "over translating" (it'd be like calling the Kamehameha, the "Turtle Destruction Blast" on the attack list page). Again the idea here is to use straight romanizations (barring obvious stuff like Piccolo or Trunks of course) and going with Simmons' version when there's a debate. As is detailed on the Dragon Ball Wikiproject main page, we're trying to achieve some degree of consistancy by not favoring any one adaptation over another as there have been so many with so many different translations with so many varying degrees of accuracy. The reason Simmons gets used is because even though his translations appear in FUNimation products, they are not considered to be the company's "official" translations. This makes him our only semi-official yet semi-unpartial source, whose accuracy ratio inceidentally happens to be considerably higher than any other official attempt to translate DBZ. Djinn Buu really originates from the Viz adaptation, and while Viz is (for the most part) spot on and surgically precise with regards to straight up dialogue, their character/attack names are sometimes just... way the fuck out there to be perfectly frank. Some examples are motivated by censorship (Hell's Flash and Mr. Satan to Inferno Blast and the ever popular Hercule), while others are just trully random and bizarre (I mean seriously, Cultivars?!). All that said, even though there is some merit to the argument that Majin Buu can be translated as Djinn Buu, Majin Buu is still the character's name. It's both a correct name, and it's a correct name that poses no danger of getting messed with by overzealous dub fans, not to mention endlessly debated in the talk page, resulting in God knows how many edit wars. The internet is a spawning ground for inane debate at the end of the day, which is why my feeling is that as long as the name's right, why rock the boat unnecessarily? Fuad Ramses 07:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Jesus lord why do we have to change the names? There is no reason to start a 3 month debate that will just turn into a big hissy fight and will probably get us all blocked. The names we have now are good they aren't compeletely obscure like "Djinn Buu" or "Pu-erh. Instead of wasting time arguing about names lets just improve the articles. Also the romanizations are only good when something (or someone) doesn't have a name in the english versions.DBZROCKS 11:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In response to Fuad Ramses, no I'm not being anal, I'm just saying choose one form of the translation instead of what appears best. Basically, from my understanding, you all want to leave it the way it is? I would comprehend if you chose one form of translation for the names. However, utilising manga names, Steve Daimao's names, and FUNimation names that seem to be "fit" is a completely bad idea. I believe this is the reason why users keep changing it to their liking, whether it be manga or any other type. Selecting one choice of names is ideal and relevant. As I have stated earlier, I'll edit them ALL to Daimao's names and will explain so in the edit summary. If the name gets changed by another user, I shall revert it, but will be aware of the three revert rule. (By the way DBZROCKS, Pu'ar is a pun on Pu-erh tea and is the base for where Toriyama said he obtained the character's name, therefore, it was also used by Steve Simmons in the Japanese-audio English-subtitled anime) If Daimao did, in fact, admit he wanted Kibito instead of Kibit, and Kakarotto instead of Kakarot, then use what he said he intended.
 * I would just say not to "rock the boat" as Faud put it when it comes to some of those. Pu-erh- are you sure that's Simmons? I can double check, but what saga are you checking. Dragon Ball actually has a different subber. That aside, it could still be an appropriate change, though I think we need to check both sets of subs. Some of the others though, I just don't think we need to sweat it over a hyphen here and there. If you opt to change Muten, use that name over Turtle Hermit (as the article isn't called Kame Sennin at the moment). Tsuru sennin may be a good choice to translate, but by the same token we shouldn't change King Chapa in my opinion since the o just means king anyway. Onikage725 13:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Overall, all I need is the authorisation of you guys and the other DB WikiProject members to give the "okay" on what I plan to do. Is there an administrator I could speak to regarding this matter by any chance?  ~ I&#39;m anonymous
 * Ok we have had almost no compaints about this before. we don't need to change the names

DBZROCKS 18:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) We are using the common names people will understand
 * 2) Just because Daimao did something does not mean we have to follow suit
 * 3) We have redirects to the names


 * Daimao did sub a bit of Dragon Ball, mind you. Although it's not enough to give people a clear picture regarding Dragon Ball-era names.

Anyways, I think it should stay where it is =P. 75.153.170.111 08:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Ugh templates
Yet again some random user has put up a random DragonBall related item up for deletion. in this case it is the Appears in template that is on all of our charecters. Please let us stop this from being unlawfully deleted. DBZROCKS 22:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * User:^demon isn't a random user, he's an administrator-- $U IT  01:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandal Profile
A user with the name Shadow Sonic Silver has been terriorising Dragon Ball pages for a while now. He has multiple sockpupptets which have all been blocked along with Shadow Sonic Silver. However he is fond of creating mulitple accounts with which to vandalise with. His user Names usually have something to do with Sonic, Shadow, Silver, The LSS, Broly Or Sephiroth also more recentally he has started using molly in his names. His contributions usually consist of Dragon Ball related vandalism and mutiple edits to the pages of users MightyKombat and Silver Fang with the intention of Vandalism. It has also been confirmed that the three go to the same school and that is the time they edit wikipedia. MightyKombat and Silver Fang are legitimate users however and are most definitally not vandals. So if you see anyone that fits the above discription look at his contributes to make sure and if it is indeed this vandal imeadatally report him to WP:SSP. Here is a list of his confirmed usernames. Let no sock escape! DBZROCKS 23:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In light of vandals, I saw that User:Recoome removed his sockpuppet tag from his userpage, I put it back. Just thought you should know DBZROCK. 66.229.120.240 17:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing this to their attention man MightyKombat 16:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)