Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons/Archive 19

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is a GAN
Check it out. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 19:52, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice! -Drilnoth (talk) 20:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Kewl. BOZ (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I finished off White Plume Mountain and nominated it while I was at it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 00:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice work - I'll have a look soon. :) BOZ (talk) 00:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Great! I've stared S-series Dungeons & Dragons modules as a lead article for a Good Topic, assuming that's what we're going for (it still has a ways to go, though). -Drilnoth (talk) 02:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Old magazines.
I've pretty much got Polyhedron, White Dwarf, Dungeon, and Dragon worked out. Apparently there are some others that review modules. Fantasy Gamer and The Space Gamer being ones I'd like to see. They're probably impossible to find. Anyone know? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't even have Poly or WD, nor ever seen any physical copies. :( I first heard of The Space Gamer while working on the Gygax GA. Different Worlds, I've seen mentioned here and there. Sounds like a lot of these would be super useful. BOZ (talk) 02:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's another one. I think one would probably have to scour ebay, which is farther than I'm willing to go. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yah, I hear ya, same here. Shame! BOZ (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you email me at pfisher (at) gmail (dot) com? I want to ask you something. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. BOZ (talk) 04:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This site has some information on the issues. I know I tossed most of my copies long ago; maybe keeping a couple of issues in my library... alas. They just didn't seem all that worthwhile.&mdash;RJH (talk) 20:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge the Giants, Drow, and Demonweb pits articles
I like them seperate, but I think we could make an FA class article pretty easily if they're all put into one: Queen of the Spiders The Dungeon top 30 #1 ranking articles is big, but it only discusses them as a whole. We could also leave the individual aritcles and still create the big one, I guess. It's just that I merged the Giants ones a year or so ago, and I think it worked out pretty well. What do you think? I ask becuase I was thinking of improving Against the Giants, but it's problematic because the review treats them as one. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 07:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe. My personal preference is to leave any fairly strong subject as a stand-alone, and I'd say that Giants at the very least can stand alone. It's something to consider, at least. I'd say no for now, but maybe for later. BOZ (talk) 13:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's something to consider, but as BOZ said, if an article can pretty well stand on its own I think it should. Maybe we can look into this further once the Realms of Horror series is done. -Drilnoth (talk) 14:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. I like the start of ROH. - 17:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * There is an easy way to make the RON a GA. Copy/patse the leads from the S series articles that are GA, and bring along the refs that back them up (with a bit of a copyedit). - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 07:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that that would fly... I plan to "steal" quite a few of the refs, but it wouldn't make a really good lead article to just copy-paste material from the "child" articles. -Drilnoth (talk) 13:50, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not in favor of a merger. Web Warlock (talk) 19:11, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The appropriate criteria for article merges is listed here: WP:MERGE. Where there's a wikipedia policy in place, it's usually safer (in terms of avoiding AfD) to stick with that rather than relying on personal preferences. Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 20:02, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Grawp attack turns fatal ;)
Undermountain goes to AFD after being vandalized by Grawp socks? BOZ (talk) 03:29, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I do find that interesting... wouldn't that be encouraging him/her/them to cause further disruption? Ah, well. -Drilnoth (talk) 03:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * User talk:Mattinbgn BOZ (talk) 03:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh... -Drilnoth (talk) 04:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to suggest merging Undermountain and Skullport with Waterdeep (city), then fixing up the latter with better citations.&mdash;RJH (talk) 19:37, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd support that. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nobody commented, so I went ahead with the UM merge. The Waterdeep article still has some issues, unfortunately.&mdash;RJH (talk) 20:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Waterdeep (city) will certainly need cleanup, but it'll be easier now than it was before. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Bone March
Can someone take a look at referencing, rewriting in universe content, and/or merging Bone March? It's at the end of the notability backlog so is likely to be a deletion target otherwise. Cheers, Jfire (talk) 17:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I thought we had gotten all those really old ones... BOZ (talk) 17:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Assessment Template
Hello, I am not active on this project, but I was stopping by the project page to see what your template was, when I noticed that your assessment table has different categories for each possibility (i.e. Low-importance Stubs). I imagine that has to do with the code in your project template. Could you please tell me what parameters you use, as well as how they are set up? Thanks, ErikTheBikeMan (talk) 16:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes! This WPBannerMeta hook, set up by, allows this to be done pretty easily. It is, in my opinion, an easy way to track articles in the table if you use non-standard assessments (e.g., Bottom-importance), and for more consistent updating of the table (the tables generated by the WP1.0Bot don't seem to be updated much; with those cats, you can use User:Erwin/CatCount to easily set up automatic, daily updates). An alternative method of generating this quality-by-importance cats is to use something similar to what Comicsproj uses, where each one has to be specifically spelled out. The former is useful for any banners using WPBannerMeta, although to my knowledge the later way is the only way of creating the cats with complex banners which don't use the meta template. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth is now a GA
It's so nice when a reviewer takes an article, and then reviews it right on the spot, unlike my of GAs. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 07:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's two for the price of one, today! Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is also a GA. Excellent work, especially PF. :) BOZ (talk) 16:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesome! Now Dragonlance (we're getting pretty close!) and then on to other articles! -Drilnoth (talk) 19:45, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Dragonlance is looking much improved. BOZ (talk) 20:16, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, 1% of our articles are now officially Good Articles. ;) BOZ (talk) 02:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent...
 * Honestly though, this is great news. We just need to keep it up! -Drilnoth (talk) 02:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Literature or Sports and Recreation
I think Tsojcanth was put in the Sports and Recreation section of WP:GA, although I put it in the literature section of WP:GAN. I've been putting them in Lit, and I see Drilnoth put Dragonlance in Lit too, but I think some of our GAs have gone through the Sports and Rec part. My feeling is that the the Lit part of GAN maybe moves faster, since it isn't mixed in with all those cricket articles. Probably not the best rational for using that section, though. ;-) Then to make things more confusing, some stuff is ending in Works under Arts and Literature at WP:GA (EBP), and other stuff under Board and Card Games (TofH and most others). Drizzt is off somewhere else.  It doesn't really matter, since a GA is a GA, but do people have an opinion on this?  I guess Dragonlance is mostly novels, and the modules are recreation? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, individual modules belong in the games section. Dragonlance should be in literature because it encompasses such a wide range of products that no one really fits, although literature seems to be the most accurate of those ones that there are. Drizzt Do'Urden is known primarily as a novel character, rather than a game character, so he's in some section related to elements and characters of fiction. It's kind of a mess, yes, but I think that it'll have to do until there's enough for RPGs to have their own section. -Drilnoth (talk) 01:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe there should be a general games category? Video games have tons of GA and higher articles. BOZ (talk) 01:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You guys probably saw my comment on the GA page, but I'm thinking a renaming to Tabletop games is the best way to go. It will be mostly D&D stuff, with boar and card games thrown in.  Our stuff will be centralized.  I guess Drizzt and Dragonlance get thrown in with the work and fictional character crowd, or we could we could put them in that section as well.  They don't exactly fit it, but it would be nice to have all D&D stuff in one section.  We can't get away with our own section, but we can get away with putting our GAs in whatever section we want.  I'll try and work on it tomorrow, and leave Drizzt and Forgotten Realms where they are, unless you guys think they should go in Tabletop games as well. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 08:35, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Video games collaboration
I noticed your request on the video game WikiProject's talk page. I'd be happy to help with the improvement effort on those articles - I'm familiar with video games, D&D, and D&D video games specifically. I'll head over there soon and take a look at them. Are there any WikiProject D&D editors actively involved with either of those pages right now? —  Levi van Tine  (talk) 12:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, none of us are involved in either of those, but we'd love to collaborate - thanks for the offer. :) BOZ (talk) 13:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll help out however I can on either Planescape: Torment or one of the NWN games. Just let me know which! -Drilnoth (talk) 14:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Planescape: Torment seems to have more support; how about if we start there? BOZ (talk) 16:46, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Can do. I'll try to get to work on the reception section and reference formatting, unless someone else wants to really focus on those. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Planescape: Torment has passed. :) Do we want to look into other VG articles now, and/or focus on the pen-n-paper aspect? BOZ (talk) 23:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That was fun! Let me know if you decide to do more D&D VG articles—I'd be happy to help, if you think my contributions are worthwhile. —   Levi van Tine  ( t  –  c )   12:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Your help was much-appreciated. Thanks!
 * As for the next GA, I think that either Greyhawk (already kind of on the schedule) or Neverwinter Nights 2 would be good, the former because, well, its Greyhawk, and the latter because it is one of our most popular articles. –Drilnoth (T • C) 13:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Peregrine had started some work on Greyhawk, and I was planning to look into our stock of D&D VG articles for some ides. :) BOZ (talk) 16:01, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know about Greyhawk. I've put in pretty much everything I've found at this point.  Now it's primary source time, and I'm not an expert on it.  NVN2 might be the one to do now. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 17:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay; so, Neverwinter Nights 2 it is! –Drilnoth (T • C) 18:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, we can do that one. It will be no small task, though, and I think we should seek help again. As I said above, I'm planning to have a look (no time at the moment) through our VG articles and kind of list them out with some thoughts. BOZ (talk) 19:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ooo, you D&D guys like a challenge huh? See you on the talk page. —    Levi van Tine  ( t  –  c )   06:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * PS, do you think Planescape: Torment is ready for A-class? If so, I can nominate it. —    Levi van Tine  ( t  –  c )   06:55, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * A class is passed/failed by us, I think? Are we close to FA?  I imagine they have some rules about VG articles we should know. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 09:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * By "they" do you mean WPVG? I think for the time being, we ("we" being WPVG) should follow the generic A-class criteria until the assessment working group gets A-class sorted out.  So, we can nominate the article on its talk page and any interested reviewer can participate.  Or if WPD&D has a process you'd like to use instead, go ahead. —    Levi van Tine  ( t  –  c )   11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that the D&D project should probably hold on doing anything with A-Class until the assessment working group comes to some conclusion, but that's just me. Personally, I don't really think that Torment is comprehensive enough to be A-Class. –Drilnoth (T • C) 14:35, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I'll hold off for now then. —   Levi van Tine  ( t  –  c )   06:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

History of D&D video games
OK, using the articles we have available here on Wikipedia, I compiled a little history of how the D&D game has been released on the computer format. :) My apologies for any inaccuracies; I'm sure there are more than a few, but that's why we use sources on actual articles. ;)

Early on there were apparently no officially licensed computer adaptations of D&D, although there were numerous unofficial knock-offs which were mostly written by college students, including dnd and Dungeon. Probably the first licensed D&D computer game was a handheld portable game manufactured in 1981 (we don't have an article on that, too bad). With the advent of the home video game console, TSR tried to get in on the act with a couple of games for Intellivision (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons in 1982, later known as Cloudy Mountain, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Treasure of Tarmin in 1983); however, TSR must not have felt these were catching on and just stuck with the good old fashioned tabletop RPG for a few years.

Then, with the growing popularity of home computer gaming in the mid 1980s, TSR decided to license out their AD&D line to Strategic Simulations Inc (SSI), who went on to publish a few dozen games for their product line. Some of the SSI D&D games were developed by other companies, but for several years SSI seems to have had the exclusive publishing rights. The first game they produced was the first game using the highly popular "Gold Box engine", Pool of Radiance for the Forgotten Realms setting in 1988. The Forgotten Realms Gold Box series followed with Curse of the Azure Bonds (1989), Secret of the Silver Blades (1990), and Pools of Darkness (1991), and with a second series of Gold Box games comprised of Gateway to the Savage Frontier (1991) and Treasures of the Savage Frontier (1992). Hillsfar (1989) was not technically a Gold Box game, but it was designed to be compatible with Pool of Radiance and Curse of the Azure Bonds. Other Gold Box D&D games published by SSI include the Dragonlance series Champions of Krynn (1990), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and The Dark Queen of Krynn (1992), as well as Spelljammer: Pirates of Realmspace (1992). While the original Neverwinter Nights game (1991), purportedly the first graphical MMORPG and played exclusively on AOL, was not technically a Gold Box game, it clearly used the same engine. Forgotten Realms: Unlimited Adventures (1993), was likewise not truly a Gold Box game, but it was a tool that allowed enterprising amateur designers to create their own D&D scenarios using the Gold Box engine.

SSI released more than just the Gold Box games for D&D, though. In 1988, SSI released the Dragonlance game Heroes of the Lance, and its sequel Dragons of Flame in 1989 and Shadow Sorcerer in 1991. Also in 1989 came the Dragonlance computer game War of the Lance and then DragonStrike in 1990. SSI published the first Eye of the Beholder game in 1990, with two sequels following. The Gold Box engine was discontinued by 1993, allowing SSI to publish a number of additional games using different engines, including Fantasy Empires, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, Stronghold, and Dungeon Hack in 1993, and Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager, Al-Qadim: The Genie's Curse, and Menzoberranzan in 1994. SSI also produced a MMORPG named Dark Sun Online: Crimson Sands in 1996; its sequel Dark Sun Online: The Age of Heroes remains unreleased. Many of the most popular Forgotten Realms games produced up to that point were collected in The Forgotten Realms Archives, released in 1996.

TSR also began to branch out into other gaming systems in the early 1990s besides home computers, beginning by producing versions of several SSI games for the NES and other systems, such as Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Pool of Radiance in 1991. Westwood Studios, who had developed several games produced by SSI, developed two original games based on the Mystara setting for home consoles in 1992: Order of the Griffon for the TurboGrafx-16, and Dungeons & Dragons: Warriors of the Eternal Sun for the Sega Mega Drive. Capcom produced two beat-em-up style arcade games for the Mystara setting, Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom in 1993 and Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara in 1996; these two games would later be released on the Sega Saturn in 1999's Dungeons & Dragons Collection.

In 1996, TSR began licensing to other companies besides SSI. Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance (1996), was published by Sierra On-Line, and Blood & Magic (1996), and the first 3-D D&D computer game Descent to Undermountain (1997) were published by Interplay. (There were also a few Ravenloft games in there, but we don't have any articles on these.) Around this time, TSR had gotten itself into some serious financial trouble, and was purchased by Wizards of the Coast, who maintained the licensing agreement with Interplay initially.

Wizards began working with developers BioWare on what would become the most successful computer RPG for the D&D line in its first ten years: Baldur's Gate in 1998. The Baldur's Gate series proved quite popular, and the line was expanded (see the category for Baldur's Gate). An expansion pack, Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast, was released in 1999. Interplay also released Black Isle Studios' Planescape: Torment in 1999, and Icewind Dale in 2000, both based on the same engine as Baldur's Gate. The Icewind Dale series included the expansion pack Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter (2001) and sequel Icewind Dale II (2002). The popularity of the original Baldur's Gate allowed it to spawn a sequel, Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn in 2000, with an expansion Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal in 2001. Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor, released by Ubisoft in 2001, was purported to be a sequel to the original Gold Box series. Atari published The Temple of Elemental Evil in 2003, Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone in 2004, Dungeons & Dragons: Dragonshard in 2005, and Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach in 2006.

Meanwhile, Wizards continued to expand the D&D video game line into other gaming console formats. The popularity of the Baldur's Gate series spawned the Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance series for the PS2 and other gaming systems; Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance was released in 2001, and its sequel Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II was released in 2004. The Greyhawk setting's Dungeons & Dragons: Heroes was released in 2003 for the Xbox. Dungeons & Dragons Tactics was released for the PSP in 2007.

BioWare released Neverwinter Nights in 2002, which began the extremely popular Neverwinter Nights series (see the category for Neverwinter Nights). Expansion packs were released for the game, including Shadows of Undrentide (2003), Hordes of the Underdark (2003), and Kingmaker (2004). While users could produce their own modules for this game, a few official modules were released including Kingmaker (2004) and Pirates of the Sword Coast (2005). The original game's sequel, Neverwinter Nights 2, was released in 2006, along with expansion packs Mask of the Betrayer (2007), Storm of Zehir (2008), and the yet-to be released Mysteries of Westgate.

Well, aside from just being a history lesson, I intended to put all of these games into perspective, so we can better see what we'd like to work with in terms of D&D video games. :) Looks like we're going with NWN2 first, but this should give us some additional ideas on where else we might want to go. BOZ (talk) 03:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, you should turn that comment into an article, or maybe a bare list. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:12, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Support! —   Levi van Tine  ( t  –  c )   06:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What Peregrine Fisher said. :) Great work! –Drilnoth (T • C) 14:33, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's completely unsourced original research - we have enough D&D articles like that already. ;) BOZ (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh...
 * Anyway, just add in a few refs and it could be put into List of Dungeons & Dragons video games easily, if you wanted. Seems kind of sad for all of that useful content to be stuck into a talk page archive. –Drilnoth (T • C) 23:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I made it for us here to use, and it's just an extrapolation of that list with details from other articles. If you want to use it any other way, be my guest. :) BOZ (talk) 05:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Article alerts
Everyone loves this so far, so I don't see why you guys wouldn't.Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 01:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Great idea! I've subscribed. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If you have taskforces, you can subscribe them seperatly as well.Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 03:10, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion! Right now, our taskforces are pretty much inactive, but I'll keep that in mind to set something up if they ever get going again. -Drilnoth (talk) 03:20, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. At any rate, if your taskforces articles are tagged using the same banners as the main project, they'll all be included in the alert reports.Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 03:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Great! That's what I thought. -Drilnoth (talk) 03:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

How do you subscribe? I like these things, but I haven't figured out how to use them. Any help would be appreciated. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 08:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It should all be detailed at WP:AAlerts (follow links as needed). If it's still confusing, leave me a message on my talk page (if possible explaining where exactly you are confused, so we can improve the explanations).Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 10:15, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I create a sub-user page and put those templates on it, or will that create problems? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 10:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you mean? Do you want the D&D article alerts in one of your userpages or something like that? If yes, all you have to do is place on your usepage and youll see them on your userpage (this is called a WP:Transclusion). Did I answer your question?Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 10:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, thanks. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 19:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)