Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons/Archive 28

parallels D&D & Warcraft
I am no D&D expert but from the little I know and from having wasted time in World of warcraft I can safely say there are hordes of influences, starting with the fact that in WoW the good guys come in 2 alignments (Alliance & horde (WoW) <=order & chaos (D&D)) to owlbear (D&D) /owlkin (WoW) and the whole point and multipliers etc typical of role playing games. But on wikipedia there not a mention of the similarities, whereas I would have expected a list page full of stuff like that. I know some stuff in warcraft does not come from D&D (such as the "portals" to cross to different worlds which instead is taken from Feist's Magician book called there "rifts" and "valheru"="dreadlords" in warcraft) and combining to facts to prove a point is against the policies (SYNT), but a comparison page would be really interesting thing to read. --Squidonius (talk) 14:31, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, that would be interesting. Probably the main reason that we don't have anything on the comparison is that no one has really found a reliable source to include such comparisons. If you can find one, then it should be worth adding somewhere. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 15:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I could sit here and really tear apart Squidonius' comparison with WoW and how flawed it is, but let me just save my time and point you to the CAR-PGa. Suffice it to say that every study ever done disproves your thoughts. Hooper (talk) 01:51, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

At least one ref exists. To do an article using nothing but reliable sources would be a major undertaking, but probably possible. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:44, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I must apologize for my above comment. I read Warcraft in the subsection head as the pagan-esque "evil" I-read-Jack-Chick warcraft, and because the user used order & chaos and dreadlords and magic, I thought the user was trying to make that old D&D is evil claim.  I completely misunderstood and can now see what you were trying to say.  Yeah, thats okay, but I doubt it would require a full article.  Possibly a slight off-comment in the history of WoW. Hooper (talk) 02:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Hyphenation
Comment requested at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Role-playing games; seeing as how this project is more active than that one, I thought I'd ask here too.
 * RPGA uses "roleplaying" and "roleplayer" in all their published material. Don't know how germane that is to making a decision, but as Living Greyhawk triad member, it was one of the RPGA style guide issues I had to memorize and utilise, so my brain is now hard-wired to remove the hyphen whenever I see it. :) Guinness323 (talk) 17:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC) (adding my sig many days later)

Planescape: Torment
Added a possible ref to the talk page that might make a good addition to the article. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 16:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Can anyone confirm this?
The death of John Eric Holmes has been reported, but of course we need a reliable source to confirm that. 24.148.0.83 (talk) 18:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to be true. I reverted it the last time someone posted about this, but this time I think it's for real, and will leave as-is for now, pending the appearance of an actual RS to solidify it. BOZ (talk) 05:36, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This is probably the obituary:
 * At least the dates appear to match. There isn't much detail though. They undoubtedly wanted it to be private.&mdash;RJH (talk) 15:44, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * At least the dates appear to match. There isn't much detail though. They undoubtedly wanted it to be private.&mdash;RJH (talk) 15:44, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

A taste of D&D
A story about D&D-flavored Jones Soda: Bizarre soda tells us what Dungeons & Dragons tastes like. The purple Illithid Brain Juice looks like a winner. ;-) RJH (talk) 14:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Do want. Hekerui (talk) 15:48, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

ProFiles
Those of you who were paying attention may have noticed earlier this year when I was adding info from Dragon's ProFiles column, which ran in nearly every issue from #243-293. At that time I was concentrating on filling in all the unsourced bios that I could, thanks to the drive to delete all unsourced BLP bios (you'll note that none have been deleted, thank you very much!), and I'm sure I did at least a couple dozen. I basically had three tiers of bios to work with: unsourced, poorly sourced, and pretty well sourced but hey why not add more info. As far as I know, I finished the unsourced bios a while ago, and I just started on the "poorly sourced" with Troy Denning. Soon I will be on to other bios such as Elaine Cunningham, Bill Slavicsek, Wolfgang Baur, Mary Kirchoff, Bruce Cordell, Sean Reynolds, Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams, and David Noonan. You can be my cheerleaders. ;) 24.148.0.83 (talk) 03:23, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't know till now, but you are the man (or "very rare" female DnD editor). 204.153.84.10 is editor of the month for May (see above), but it's looking like you may have June locked up, even if it's based on your work this month.  Thank you so much. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a competition, I think we're all here to improve things bit by bit. :) But I'll take your praise anyway on what I've done so far, and what I still plan to do! BLP is an increasingly important aspect of the encyclopedia as a whole, and I wish I had caught on to that sooner. 24.148.0.83 (talk) 05:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Notability of Ket
The article on Ket was tagged for notability issues a couple of weeks ago. I have re-writte the article to try to establish notability, especially Ket as a main player in the Greyhawk Wars plotline, but I would appreciate any suggestions. A secondary source talking about Ket's role during that time would be super, if anyone knows of one out there. Guinness323 (talk) 19:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I am skeptical that an independent source for Ket can be found.&mdash;RJH (talk) 22:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Drow - a Russian GA!
Anyone speak Russian? ;) Their article on the drow is a GA; I wonder if there's anything we can get out of that?

Of course, if they have GA criteria anything like ours, I have to wonder how they passed #3? Looking from the sources they used, it seems focused almost entirely on the Forgotten Realms version of drow, and it doesn't seem to mention Gygax or the drow early history at all. BOZ (talk) 17:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The criteria seem far less rigorous, but I couldn't tell when this passed. The talk page has only one post from 2009 and the rest is from 2007. Hekerui (talk) 19:12, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Dagon prod'd
The Dagon (Dungeons & Dragons) article has been prod'd due to lack of independent coverage. My suggestion is to use the current sources to cite a summary paragraph on the Dagon in popular culture article.&mdash;RJH (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I redirected it there. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:57, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you.&mdash;RJH (talk) 15:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Article alerts
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A-class articles
In the overall wikipedia grading scheme, A-class articles apparently have a higher rating than do GA-articles. The primary difference is that A-class articles have been reviewed by impartial reviewers from a WikiProject. Thus, it should be possible for members of this wikiproject to review, say, GA-class articles and determine whether they meet the A-class criteria. (The impartial criteria suggests they should be members who haven't previously edited the article.) Improving GA articles to A-class wouldn't remove them from the GA list, and it would help identify articles that are excellent candidates for FA.&mdash;RJH (talk) 22:46, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It varies from wikiprojects. I know there are a lot who would rather seperate GA and FA/FL from the Stub-though-A-class assessments. A few also have them above FA/FL and a few below GA. 陣 内 Jinnai 21:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay. Do you know if there a consensus for this wikiproject?&mdash;RJH (talk) 22:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Artists pages at AFD
Fred Fields, Quinton Hoover, and Dana Knutson have been nominated for AFD relating to the AFD for List of Magic: The Gathering artists. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 19:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Franz Vohwinkel is also up for AFD. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 17:36, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As are Dennis Detwiller and David Ho (artist). I'm not sure why this topic is on the D&D wikiproject though.&mdash;RJH (talk) 22:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry - the ones I mentioned have all done artwork for D&D products at some point, but are known for other things as well (such as Magic). 204.153.84.10 (talk) 22:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 17:29, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Fields, Hoover, and Knutson were all ruled no consensus - hopefully someone will be able to improve them at some point, so that they won't have to go through AFD again.

On a semi-related note, Kelemvor Lyonsbane is currently at AFD. BOZ (talk) 02:03, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Randy Post (rk post) has also been nominated for AFD. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
I think it was suggested a while ago, that this one was released in July 1980 (anyone got a RS?) and, given that this was nearly 30 years ago... I think it would be good to get Expedition to the Barrier Peaks on the Wikipedia main page. :) My target date would be July 1st, but any time in July would be fine of course. BOZ (talk) 04:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * That would be cool, but there are some issues from a while back. See Talk:Expedition_to_the_Barrier_Peaks - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:51, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I thought that was resolved. Are you saying it's a good reason not to try to get it on the main page? BOZ (talk) 05:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I never quite understood what the other other editor wanted to do. I almost just want to revert to before the discussion, but they seemed pretty sure that something was wrong, even though I think the sourcing was correct. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL OK - that was my take on the issue as well. ;) I think I'll nominate it and let the chips fall how they may. BOZ (talk) 11:59, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I wrote up a blurb. I had to trim out a lot to make it fit, so now it doesn't mention Metamorphosis Alpha at all. ;)

 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is an adventure module written by Gary Gygax for the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game. While Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) is typically a fantasy game, the adventure includes science fiction elements. It takes place on a downed spaceship; the crew has died, but robots and strange creatures still inhabit the ship. The player characters fight monsters and robots, and gather futuristic weapons and colored access cards to advance the story.

The adventure was first played at the 1976 Origins II convention. TSR published the adventure in 1980, updated for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. The adventure is a favorite of many fans, including Stephen Colbert. Dungeon magazine ranked it the fifth-best D&D adventure of all time, and White Dwarf and The Space Gamer magazines gave it positive reviews. (more...)

Not sure how many points this one should get. I don't have an RS to back up the release date, but a Google search turns up a number of leads for that being the publishing date; this would put July 2010 as being roughly the 30th anniversary for the book's release. No D&D book (or any RPG book, as far as I know) has been a main page article, and the last D&D-related subject to be on the main page was Planescape: Torment (a computer game adaptation) on Dec 12 of last year. This article was listed as an FA slightly less than a year ago. BOZ (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's looking good so far on the TFA requests page. :) BOZ (talk) 11:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Woohoo! BOZ (talk) 04:08, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's very cool! Hekerui (talk) 07:56, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * For those of you with access, you're invited to the "party". ;) BOZ (talk) 01:19, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * To me, having front page exposure just means having to go back later and clean up the mess. ;-) But congratulations nonetheless.&mdash;RJH (talk) 16:34, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Songs of the Dragon
I was taking a good look at Songs of the Dragon and... was this one made up? I don't really see much evidence of its existence through a Google search. Anyone have any idea? BOZ (talk) 03:16, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't tell. I googled a few things, and I'm still not sure. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:33, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking hoax, and certainly not meeting WP:V. Should likely go to AfD. Hobit (talk) 23:51, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I prodded it. Hobit (talk) 03:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Good idea. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Deletionism seems to be back on the rise lately! Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is now up for AFD. I know it's not D&D, but it's about as close as you can get to 3E without actually being 3E. 24.148.0.83 (talk) 12:32, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like none of the references satisfy the independent sources clause of WP:GNG. Here's a few non-Paizo sources you could potentially incorporate:
 * Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Cool
- Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:32, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * LOL, wow, 31,200+ hits in one day! Usually just over 100 hits in a day.  :) 24.148.0.83 (talk) 06:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Dungeons & Dragons in popular culture‎
For a long time the Dungeons & Dragons in popular culture‎ article has been tagged for trivial content. I've been steadily working on it and trying to add citations, but many of the entries, at best, do indeed appear to be trivial mentions. I've added unsourced section tags to see if that draws any interest, but I suspect it is unlikely to do so. Does anybody here want to try rescuing that material? If not, then I'll wait a little while and then yank out the fluff. Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 23:13, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yank it, but maybe put it on the talk page. That's what I do when improving a DnD article.  Comment here if anyone gives you trouble, which probably won't happen. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'll wait a little while longer to see if there is any comment, then archive the material under the talk page.&mdash;RJH (talk) 21:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There was no negative comments, so I mercilessly moved the trivia to Talk:Dungeons & Dragons in popular culture/trivia. They can always be moved back in piecemeal if suitable cites are found. Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 18:09, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Noooo.....

Great! :) BOZ (talk) 19:27, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Sources for more recent products
I was just reassessing the article Red Hand of Doom, and I didn't expect to see anything special on a more recent book, and then I got a look at the sources references. This one's actually got at least a couple of solid sources from reviews, which I thought was pretty unusual! We have a review from Black Gate and Pyramid magazines at the very least. I'm wondering if anyone has any access to more magazines like that, so we can improve the quality of our articles on post-1st edition books and the like? 204.153.84.10 (talk) 00:04, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I usually use bittorrent for magazines, since I'm too cheap to spend money on finding sources. I didn't see any torrents for those mags, but I didn't look long.  You might ask whichever editor added that info about it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As memory serves me, it was WebWarlock (too lazy to check, getting sleepy); he is mostly inactive here lately but I do keep in touch with him on e-mail and facebook, and I will have to try to remember to hit him up when I am more awake. ;) BOZ (talk) 05:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I contacted him, but then I decided to check the article history and found that our old friend Bilby had added those sources. Memory does not always serve me well.  ;) BOZ (talk) 12:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember Red Hand of Doom - that was fun. :) Pyramid was good - I picked up a subscription back around the time I was helping with Red Hand of Doom, but the old version was made defunct and replaced with a monthly PDF, although that retains some coverage of D&D releases (mostly in brief, though - good for coverage, not necessarily for notability). Black Gate is an interesting print magazine that is quite good and has some really nice D&D reviews here and there. I have some issues, mostly from when I was tracking down the Red Hand of Doom review, and intend on getting the rest of the back issues, as I enjoyed the ones I picked up. :) Otherwise, I'd be curious as to what you mean by modern, as I used to collect a lot of SF magazines that had gaming reviews, and I recall that quite a few did D&D. - Bilby (talk) 14:52, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey all. Yeah, I not as busy here as I used to be.  Work and all.  But I'll look over the article and then hit my stash of magazines/books/stuff later tonight. Web Warlock (talk) 15:07, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Bilby, I don't think I mentioned "modern". But yeah, I guess we most need anything from the last 25 years or so, whatever sources you have!  Anything older than 25 years, sources seem to be better available, but whatever you have for anything is good. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I misread "more recent". :) I know what you mean, then - the 90's stuff might be useful on those grounds, if I can rescue them from the back room. - Bilby (talk) 15:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, great! :)  We've got positively dozens of articles about various D&D books that are totally lacking in independent sources, let alone reception sections... anything you could do, even a little, would go a long way! Thanks! 204.153.84.10 (talk) 16:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Just some thoughts on where we could go if we had more sources... we have a whole bunch of first edition AD&D era stuff at GA/FA, but virtually nothing from 2E/3E - the other editions need some love too! :)  Even if GA is far away for most of them, it would be good to introduce sources now to make that one day possible.

I got Unearthed Arcana up to GA, but I had virtually nothing about the 3E version of the book - would be nice to get something for that to bolster the article a bit.

Book of Vile Darkness was a GA at one point, but got taken down by GAR because it had no independent sourcing at all - we need some of that if we ever want to get it back up at GA. I believe Libris Mortis survived a GAR, but that could likely use some more sourcing as well.

The "30 Best D&D Adventures" feature in Dungeon magazine a few years ago focused mostly on 1E stuff, but also included The Ruins of Undermountain, City of Skulls, The Gates of Firestorm Peak, Dead Gods, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, The Forge of Fury, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and City of the Spider Queen. Of course, while that is a useful source for information, it unfortunately does nothing to help establish notability.

"Dungeon Master for Dummies" had a section for the ten-best 3E adventures, which includes Whispers of the Vampire's Blade (no article), Sons of Gruumsh (no article), and Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil according to the current Google Books preview. I know the previews must change from time to time, because it at one point also showed The Forge of Fury, City of the Spider Queen, Red Hand of Doom, The Sunless Citadel, and Lord of the Iron Fortress, and there must have been two others mentioned in the book as well. Of course, I think this book is dubious on whether or not it lends to notability as an independent source, so we could also use more sourcing there.

There are plenty of other books which could use a look, but these should be enough with which to start. I'll have a look around when I can and see what else is worth trying to find sources for. BOZ (talk) 16:50, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh duh, the table of contents for "Dungeon Master for Dummies" lists Shadows of the Last War, and The Speaker in Dreams as well, neither of which currently have articles either. I can start a stub for any of the four mentioned in that book which do not currently have articles, if we have one or more independent sources to work with. BOZ (talk) 16:54, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Some of Wired's GeekDad (John Baichtal) articles have proven useful for providing indie cites. You might peruse his current and older articles. &mdash;19:51, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not a bad idea either. We've used some of Ken Denmead's GeekDad articles in several of our GA's and other articles about modules. I recognize the name John Baichtal as an occasional contributor to Dragon mag back in the 2E days. The one you added to Underdark could also be used to expand Underdark (supplement), which needs to say something about the 4E book anyway. :) BOZ (talk) 22:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Labyrinth Lord
This article is up for deletion. I'm not sure what can be done for this one, unless there is some d20 games article it could be merged to? I don't know that it would have any sort of sources that would satisfy notability. BOZ (talk) 02:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Also Basic Fantasy RPG by the same nominator. BOZ (talk) 02:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It sounds kinda like they are fan made. If that is true, there's probably no saving them.  If not, maybe sources exist, but I have a bad feeling.  At least it aint something like Bullett. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why it (BFRPG) would be considered for deletion, since it is part of the List of RPG's article. If deleted, wouldn't that also mean deleting it from that list, which would then mean that the list is less complete?  If so, then I don't think it's a very good idea to delete it.  Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 04:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There are two ways to "win" and AfD. Have a bunch of people who want to keep it, regardless of reasoning (also called WP:CONSENSUS), or find two independent reliable non-trivial sources that discuss it (WP:NOTE).  Stuff about lists doesn't carry much weight, although it can add one person to the first scenario. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't really care if it's deleted, but I do have a policy question. If the article is deleted, can it still be kept in the list as a "red link", or is that a no-no?  Thanks.  Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 04:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * From what I've observed, a red link could be kept on an article, but a lot of people would prefer to just remove the link to discourage people from trying to re-create the article. Most people wouldn't object to having the name in the list without any link at all. 24.148.0.83 (talk) 11:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah. Policy doesn't mandate anything either way.  Sometime a closing admin with delink what links to the deleted page, and sometimes they won't.  I think WP:FLC might have rules on red links, but that's about it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know much about BFRPG, but Labyrinth Lord is only fan-made in the sense that the guy who owns the company that publishes it is a fan of D&D. But it's a real company that produces commercial products. They just bought the rights to and published a new edition of one of the oldest sci-fi RPGs (can't recall the name at the moment). The main complaint seems to be inadequate references. Whoever originally wrote the article didn't know how to use references properly, and used them as footnotes, so pretty much all of the references there are useless. I'm looking for good references for Labyrinth Lord. It looks like there's been a few things about it in the Escapist. zorblek (talk) 18:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) Well, the reason I was asking was because I tried to add an old game (Universe, by SPI) to a list of RPGs and because there wasn't an article on it, some guy kept deleting it, saying that only two red-links per list are allowed by wiki policy. Is that true, or was that guy just wrong. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 17:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Never heard of such a policy - sounds like some made-up nonsense. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 17:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not policy, but it is up to editorial discretion, so people can remove or add them as they like. And edit war over it, apparently. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 17:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, that's what I was looking for, since I couldn't find any policy that said only two red links were allowed. Thanks guys.  Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * What I usually do for red links in the List of science fiction films sub-articles is to add a citation to the row that would at least partly satisfy the requirements for notability. That way, even if there is currently no article, you can argue that it may deserve one some day.
 * That remark about the two red link limit seems like utter nonsense, unless it's some type of consensus reached within a wikiproject (in which case it still wouldn't apply wikipedia-wide).&mdash;RJH (talk) 21:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it seemed pretty retarded, but I was not in the mood to fight it at that point. One more question, however.  If there WAS a consensus to limit it to two red links, is that enforceable?  I mean, if it's not a wiki policy, then I don't see the a consensus (in this regard) as being meaningful.  Thanks.  Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Enforcement on Wikipedia is usually imposed through edit banning. But I think that is only for the worst cases, such as pure vandals or egregious disregard of policy. There's almost always a better way to resolve issues like this, such as through dispute resolution or arbitration.&mdash;RJH (talk) 22:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I've done a bunch of work on the article and added some non-useless sources, but I need help finding more. Any suggestions? It's hard to know where to look, since there aren't many gaming mags left that aren't basically house organs. zorblek (talk) 21:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Try this and this for sources. Let me know how much more is needed to keep the article from being deleted.  Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Sadly the Wikia page is the same as the original version of the Wikipedia page. I'm not sure about the RPGnet review. Can RPGnet be used to establish notability? zorblek (talk) 22:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Not really. BOZ used to think it was an WP:RS, but I don't think he feels that way anymore.  Sometimes they have a list of sources that mention something, or maybe that's another source.  It was useful for finding which modules were reviewed in The Space Gamer, an old magazine that you can't easily. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that RPGnet ought to help establish notability, but I think most people would disagree with me because it seems most of the people who do the reviews are not professional writers or whatever. Peregrine is right in that RPGnet does often list reviews for a product in actual RS'es, and it is indeed very useful for that purpose. BOZ (talk) 02:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll just add that I've never heard anything about two redlinks per list either. Some sort of magazine is what's needed...but I am not familiar with what is out there now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:37, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Stub Universe (role-playing game) article created and cited.&mdash;RJH (talk) 18:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The AfD has been closed due to no consensus, so the article should be safe for now. However, I'd like to improve the article as much as possible to discourage further attempts. I'd also like to create a good article on retro-clones and simulacra in general. I'll start another thread for that. zorblek (talk) 03:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)