Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons/Archive 30

Requests for comment/Gavin.collins 3
This discussion may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 14:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The discussion has been moved to a new venue. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 15:10, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Frank Mentzer
I have expanded the article on Frank Mentzer and added additional sources. Can someone look it over and see if the citations tag can be removed? Guinness323 (talk) 19:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Article improvement
The two threads immediately above this one give me hope for a better tomorrow. ;) I've been wanting to get back into improving some of our articles, and there's no time like the present.

For one thing, I was thinking of getting the Ravenloft (module) article up as TFA for the month of October, much like I did with with Expedition to the Barrier Peaks in July. I'll work up a blurb soon, maybe even today.

I also want to get back into improving articles. The best sourcing we have available has proven to be on D&D publications, particularly adventure modules, so I want to continue to focus on that. I'm going to try to come up with a more comprehensive plan soon, but I just want to get that idea out there. To that end, I came up with a list of gaming magazine reviews that we can try to track down to build up the articles we want to improve.

I have the day off, so we'll see what kind of free time I can make use of. :) BOZ (talk) 14:02, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I was not feeling well yesterday afternoon (and I'm still not quite in top shape), so I did not take advantage of the extra time available to me. :( Oh well, soon! BOZ (talk) 19:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to get working on some article improvements again, soon. First though, I'd like to do the (in some ways) easier thing and work on getting the Raveloft module article to the front page. :)  I started working on a blurb, so I will post later today. BOZ (talk) 19:32, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

 Ravenloft is an adventure module written by Tracy Hickman (pictured) and Laura Hickman for the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game. TSR, Inc. released it as a standalone adventure booklet in 1983, including art by Clyde Caldwell with maps by David Sutherland III. The plot of Ravenloft focuses on the villain Strahd von Zarovich, a vampire who pines for his lost love. Various story elements, including Strahd's motivation and the locations of certain items, are randomly determined by drawing cards. The player characters attempt to defeat Strahd and, if successful, the adventure ends. The Hickmans began work on Ravenloft in the late 1970s, intent on creating a frightening portrait of a vampire in a setting that combined Gothic horror with the D&D game system. Strahd has since appeared in a number of D&D accessories and novels. The module inspired numerous revisions and adaptations, including a campaign setting of the same name and a sequel. In 1999, on the 25th anniversary of Dungeons & Dragons, two commemorative versions of Ravenloft were released. Ravenloft won the 1984 Strategists' Club Award for Outstanding Play Aid, and appeared second in Dungeon magazine's list of the top 30 D&D adventures. (more...)


 * Sounds great. I'd love to see Ravenloft on the main page.  I'd also like to get one of the several articles I've left hanging into GA or FA status.  There's quite a few; G series could still be an FAC, and the two D series articles could be GANs.  If I recall correctly, the I series is mildly close, and maybe Keep on the Borderlands.  Probably a few others too. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:03, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * All of that, and more, is in the pipeline. :) Just need to find a few hours to do my research and get my thoughts together. Maybe over the weekend, or next week. BOZ (talk) 05:38, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record, I can't think of anything cooler than Keep on the Boarderlands on the front page! Hobit (talk) 15:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean the I series, I meant Desert of Desolation - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 16:13, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record, Keep on the Borderlands on the main page would be cool, but at this point that would be a very long time coming, requiring quite a bit of work to be done on the article first. :)  The Ravenloft module's article is quite a bit more likely - I think I may put it on the "non-specific date request" spot as soon as it becomes available (haven't checked yet to see if it is now). BOZ (talk) 17:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

One of our main computer programs went down for about a half hour today, so I used that time to get a jump-start on getting my research together. :) I may post it tonight! I also added the Ravenloft nomination for TFA. BOZ (talk) 01:02, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 01:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey look, it worked. ;) BOZ (talk) 00:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That was so easy and so awesome, that I'm thinking about working on getting Against the Giants up to FA, because we may be able to get it on the main page. Thanks for using your TFA knowledge to hook us up. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It was no particular challenge. :) BOZ (talk) 05:42, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Grimlock (Dungeons & Dragons)
Just to let everyone know I have just nominated Grimlock (Dungeons & Dragons) for deletion. J Milburn (talk) 14:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The nomination was withdrawn, but the article still has a pair of attention templates. One of them is for being written in an in-universe style, which seems to be something of a pervasive problem with D&D articles. Shrug.&mdash;RJH (talk) 16:00, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I have rewritten the article to explaain antecedents and how it was developed over four editions. I removed the "in-universe" tag as a result. There is still material to be expanded upon: Guinness323 (talk) 21:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * the grimlock's role in the adventure in Dungeon #81 (what was the name of the adventure, and how did the grimlock fit in?)
 * ditto an appearance in Dungeon #96
 * the details of the "Ecology of" article in Dragon #327
 * sources for the material about them in Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk.

Merging Forgotten Realms deities
A merge discussion is taking place regarding articles about Forgotten Realms deities here. Your participation in the discussion would be greatly appreciated. Neelix (talk) 13:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Derivative works
More deletionism at work, this time at the commons:
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Maps_of_fictional_places_or_locations

Includes a couple of Faerun maps. I'm not a lawyer so I'm not sure how to defend this one, although some of the details in the Maps section may be applicable. Here's the policy:
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Derivative_works

&mdash;RJH (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that they are not free. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Waterdeep (city)
New, relevant AfD. Jclemens (talk) 02:20, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll have a look! BOZ (talk) 18:33, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The result was a (snowball) keep.&mdash;20:36, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Excellent! 204.153.84.10 (talk) 22:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Character class template guidelines
RfC: There's a proposed guideline for determining which classes to include in the Template:D&D character classes, join the discussion at Template talk:D&D character classes. Fixblor (talk) 16:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing
I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The links do not appear to be functional. 108.69.80.49 (talk) 03:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right, it wasn't working. I have fixed the links. Svick (talk) 01:02, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. :) 108.69.80.49 (talk) 02:19, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Something Awful; does it help with notability?
I found this, and I was just wondering. Obviously, nothing for WP:V, but maybe just a nudge for WP:NOTE? 108.69.80.49 (talk) 17:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Nope, SA is is a major website but their individual articles aren't worth citing. Also, oh my god I created this WP in 2006 and look what it has turned into! Good job guys!Piuro (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:52, 11 December 2010 (UTC).
 * Hey wow, thanks for getting things rolling! :) 108.69.80.49 (talk) 10:38, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

AfD
World of Greyhawk timeline is up for deletion at AfD. I've no real clue if it's saveable, but if it is I figured BOZ and some others here are the only ones who could manage it... Hobit (talk) 04:48, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Darrin Drader
Hey there- I was notified when this article was deleted; a new user,, was working on the article and it has been restored to Whisperfoot's sandbox. I suspect there will be some people here who would be happy to help Whisperfoot out- if there are, please go ahead and perhaps let him know. Thanks. J Milburn (talk) 22:09, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Fighting Fantasy
I'd like to request a reference or references demonstrating the notability of all 59 individual Fighting fantasy gamebooks. There is currently an AFd taking place [] and it would be helpful if one could be found. Thanks. Szzuk (talk) 20:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Potential good articles?
I'm going to be doing a lot of work on WP:D&D articles in March, and I was wondering if there were any articles that are currently good article nominees, or which could be nominated in the near future? I'd gladly review the nominations as part of my upcoming efforts. For example, is Gen Con ready for another go? It's been two years since its last review. —Torchiest talkedits 00:19, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well for starters, see my "Working on articles" thread above. :) Aside from the success we've had with working on the more notable D&D book articles, there are others such as computer game articles, and if I take some time tomorrow to look around I could generate some more ideas.  Hardly anything is close to GA in the sense that an hour's work will get it there, but there are plenty of subjects that a dilligent editor(s) could push all the way.
 * As for the specific example of GenCon, that needs some work, but it's a lot better now than it was when I tried two years ago. :) BOZ (talk) 03:32, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fine. I was hoping to dovetail a few different projects together, but looks like the GA angle isn't happening.  Thanks. —Torchiest talkedits 23:04, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not that we can't get more GAs - I'd say there are a few dozen articles, easily, with that kind of potential - it's just that it's going to take some work to get it there. I worked on most of the project's current GA's, and all of them required several hours' worth of work to get to that point. BOZ (talk) 06:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't really explain myself very well. In March, there are going to be two backlog elimination drives:
 * Good Article Nomination drive
 * Copy editing drive
 * I am going to copy edit every D&D article that has a tag, and I was also hoping there might be a couple articles that were GA ready so that I could review them too.  I'm still down for actually working on getting them to GA status, but it sounds like there probably won't be any ready for a review (by me specifically) in March. —Torchiest talkedits 13:57, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I get you now! No, unfortunately nothing at GAN at the moment. BOZ (talk) 21:58, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Biographies and people in categories
See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Board_and_table_games

I am hoping to build guidelines for notability criteria for what makes someone notable in the games field i.e. Notability_(sports). Especially games players that I feel needs to have a section similar to the sports and athletes. An example of a question that has just arisen is does winning the first scrabble world championship count as just WP:Oneevent. Combined contribution issues also need defining.

The other conversation is do we want to have category inclusion criteria does a certain threshold need to be met before we add someone to Category:Chess players. Should Ben Afleck count as a poker player?Tetron76 (talk) 15:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Gary Holian
I am trying to beef up this article but I am having trouble finding any biographical info about Holian, which is surprising, given Holian's high profile at WotC while resurrecting Greyhawk in the late 1990s. If anyone has any books or magazine articles that give even a sketch outline of Holian--or even mention Holian--please point me at them.Guinness323 (talk) 16:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Redirects in character categories
Aren't character categories like Category:Forgotten Realms characters, Category:Ravenloft characters and the other categories only meant for actual articles and no redirects? Just wanted to check before I remove any of them, otherwise it could be tedious to re-add them. Harry Blue5 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, Harry. Mostly the categories are kept on there to indicate an article which has been merged and/or redirected, to make it easier to find the redirect and its edit history when browsing the category. BOZ (talk) 22:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

A request for project help on Gary Gygax
I moved the page yesterday from E. Gary to just plain Gary, which is what everyone called him and what he wrote under for his last twenty years. I noticed the page doesn't contain a works section. Since his fame is as an author/designer, a list of works would be the place I might have started new EGG space. I was wondering BOZ or another regular could whip up a selected bibliography for the Gary Gygax page. I'll bet somebody here could do it faster and better than I. If nobody else does, I'll take a whack at it when I get time. BusterD (talk) 12:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, the article at one time did have a bibliography section, but while we worked on it to get it up to GA class, and later attempted to get it to FA class, it was requested that we remove the bibliography in favor of including mentions of his most important work in the prose text. You might want to ask User:Jclemens for more insight on that. BOZ (talk) 16:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Notice of AfD
An article related to this project has been nominated for deletion Articles for deletion/Lamia (Dungeons & Dragons) Active Banana    (bananaphone  23:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not a member of the project, but this is an article I have worked on recently. Input from members of the project would be welcome. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 23:35, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposed merger
Just thought I'd let you all know that I've proposed merging Variant Dungeons & Dragons games into Dungeons & Dragons simulacrums. I'd appreciate any input. zorblek (talk) 06:24, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * To me, the name of the second article is ambiguous, given that there is a spell in D&D called Simulacrum. Also, I would expect that people are more likely to search for 'Variant' than 'Simulacrum'. See WP:TITLE. Regards, RJH (talk) 14:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Consolidation Proposal
I figured this would be the first place to start a discussion.

During a request for sources from BOZ on ENWorld, I discovered that there are a lot of D&D articles that seem to be placeholders. Now, a lot of people have done some very good work on major articles, and I see a lot of excellent work on sources and the like, but I think I see a big problem with some of these articles. I am concerned that there's a lot of articles that aren't deserving of a full seperate article on Wikipedia. I proposed, for instance, the Medusa entry for deletion because of the following reasons. It is not significantly different from the mythological creature in any major way, and the article itself can't be more than a stub, unlike other articles about major monsters.

Simply put, I do not think that every single D&D monster deserves its own separate article on Wikipedia. Precedent has been set because of the guidelines made for Videogames, which have suggested that details like weapons and vehicles should not have their own entries on Wikipedia. Also, in recent years major in-universe descriptions have moved off of Wikipedia to their own entries on Wikia, for instance. Before I go making any additional reviews of articles, I would like to discuss with this community (and the others, such as the RPG project and the Fiction project), on what the limits should be in this coverage. I would not define myself as a "deletionist", but I would like to see more quality and less quantity.

What should the criteria be for individual articles? I agree coverage of game products themselves is a good idea--I don't mind seeing every supplement have a listing, since it's an existing game/literary product. However, my own personal tolerance would be to avoid having individual articles for every monster and every magic item or spell. I'm not sure if the latter are defined, but clearly there seems to be an overabundance of articles of monsters, which are mostly stubs and probably would be better reproduced in larger articles as lists. JRT (talk) 19:29, 26 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. Some monsters like Beholder need there own page, but lots like Chimera (Dungeons & Dragons) don't.  A lot of the articles at List of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition monsters should just be redirected to that page, and their talk pages updated to reflect the change.  Notifiy us here if you make any progress.  Even worse than monsters are location articles, by the way. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:28, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm going to wait a few weeks before I do anything, but it nobody from the group posts here I'll see about requesting a merge from the most redundant articles, like those creatures based on real-world myth that aren't significantly different. JRT (talk) 12:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I recommend doing some merging, and seeing what people say, if anything. -Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:04, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Excellent idea to merge monsters that did not originate in D&D and were not substantially changed by D&D. It's one thing to create articles for monsters that were created for D&D and its precursors (blink dog, rust monster, displacer beast, etc.) but dealing with articles about mythical monsters "appropriated" by D&D designers and not customized for the game in any significant way just makes our notability issues with notable monsters more difficult.Guinness323 (talk) 04:37, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with that strongly - maybe this is a good place to flag a few. Each has different strengths and weaknesses of argument, so maybe starting with Chimera....Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:31, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd also endorse the rationales discussed above. Perhaps we should have something like List of adapted Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition monsters and List of original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition monsters . BusterD (talk) 13:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Not sure exactly how we want to do it, but I took a stab at it. I redirected Chimera (Dungeons & Dragons) to List of Dungeons & Dragons monsters (1974–1976) (and delinked it there but no where else). Not sure if that's the best target, but it's where it first appeared. I changed the class at Talk:Chimera (Dungeons & Dragons) to "Redirect", which helps us keep track in some way (forget how). - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I would like to invite all interested, to transfer the content of D&D articles that are/will be changed into redirects to Dungeons and Dragons Wiki into the Canon section. In that way, former effort that has been put into these pages is not lost, even if the subject is not notable here. Daranios (talk) 17:25, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems to be more than one. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Very true. 3 however is specifically dedicated to homebrew material (to my knowledge). 1 and 2 have the same origin, 1 split from 2 due to formatting changes/problems on Wikia. Future (and any user) has to decide which one turns out most helpful. Daranios (talk) 18:47, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Working on articles
OK, I've been talking about getting back to article improvement, and here we go. Naturally, we want to keep our Featured Articles in top shape, and keep working on our Good Articles to make them better, especially those which might one day become FA's, such as Against the Giants or Tomb of Horrors. As we've found by working on other articles, we can get just about any type up to GA or better, but the ones we've had the most far and away success with are the publications, particularly adventure modules. So, it makes sense to me to stick with that as our focus, and do other types of articles when we can.

The best thing to look for, of course, is independent sourcing. There should a few print sources out there, especially older ones, and I'd love to hear about any more. For one thing, our WikiProject has its own References page. From there, Dicing with Dragons is a book that covers everything written for D&D and other games up through the early 80s. From the online preview I've seen, it looks like the book doesn't really cover anything in too much detail, but we might as well use the hell out of anything we've got. ;) Heroic Worlds is purported to be a much better source, although there is no online preview.  I'm tempted to track down a copy for myself, but I'm perpetually low on funds.

Anything printed by TSR/WotC about the game in retrospect is good to enhance an article, even though it doesn't necessarily help at all with notability. Dungeon Master for Dummies (not published by WotC, but written by their designers) and Dungeon #116 had lists of the best classic adventures, and some commentary about them, and this has been added to quite a few articles already. I think that 30 Years of Adventure mentioned a few publications, so that is good too.

We need to track down more useable online sources as well. RPGnet would be nice, except I have seen them shot down too many times as being unreliable. We found a nice series of articles in Wired magazine by Ken Denmead about the "Top 10 D&D Modules I Found in Storage This Weekend", which turned out to be very useful. There's got to be more out there on this wonderful world wide web. Some specific books get featured or mentioned here and there, so keep a Googley-eye out.

Probably the best place we've had a lot of luck is with reviews in old gaming magazines. I came up with a list of gaming magazine reviews that we can try to track down to build up the articles we want to improve. White Dwarf covered almost the entire first edition era while it was still doing independent reviews. The Space Gamer cast almost as wide of a net (and even went further back to the pre-first edition days), and like Different Worlds covered the majority of the first edition era, but neither magazine had as many reviews as White Dwarf; Space Gamer included other associated titles such as Fantasy Gamer, and The V.I.P. of Gaming magazine. White Wolf magazine picked up at the tail end of first edition, and went nearly into the mid-1990s, covering the second edition era well with dozens of product reviews. Pyramid and Shadis picked up around this point, and although Shadis did not do reviews for very long, it did feature some retro reviews as well. I don't know if any gaming magazines continued to do product reviews by the time Wizards of the Coast bought TSR; I understand that Pyramid continued to be produced online, and has done reviews on occasion. And of course, Dragon did product reviews on D&D too, which we can use sparingly.

Below, I've started to come up with a list, by book, of all the known sources available for some of our below-GA articles which have at least two known sources. Some of these articles currently cite these sources, but in many cases they do not. Many of those which do not currently cite Dicing with Dragons, Heroic Worlds, and other sources, probably should, but I ranked these by how many of the following sources are used (or mentioned) in the article currently. I used the following codes:

DwD – Dicing with Dragons; HW – Heroic Worlds; DMfD – Dungeon Master for Dummies; Dng116 – Dungeon magazine #116; 30Yrs – 30 Years of Adventure; Wired – Wired; Dragon# - Dragon magazine; Adv# - Adventurer; Arc# - Arcane; Cha# - Challenge; DW# - Different Worlds; FG# - Fantasy Gamer; Pyr# - Pyramid; Sha# - Shadis; TSG# - The Space Gamer; VIP# - VIP of Gaming; WD# - White Dwarf; WW# - White Wolf


 * Scourge of the Slave Lords - DwD, HW, DMfD, Dng166, Dragon133, DW12, DW16, DW17, TSG35, Sha32, Sha33, WD33


 * The Keep on the Borderlands - DwD, HW, Dng116, Wired, DW8, Sha29, TSG37, Pyramid (online)


 * Desert of Desolation - HW, DMfD, Dng116, Dragon126, WD45, WD55, WD93
 * The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh - DwD, HW, Dng116, Wired, FG2, DW20, WD35


 * Battlesystem - HW, Dragon178, DW43, VIP2, VIP3, WD70
 * Deities & Demigods - DwD, HW, DW19, TSG34, WD23, WW27
 * Descent into the Depths of the Earth - HW, DMfD, Dng116, Wired, DW21, WD11
 * Isle of Dread - DwD, HW, Dng116, DW12, TSG38, WD24
 * Monster Manual - HW, FG6, DW33, WD8, WD49, Pryamid (online)
 * The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan - HW, DMfD, Dng116, Wired, TSG29, WD40
 * The Temple of Elemental Evil - DwD, HW, DMfD, Dng116, TSG35, VIP4


 * Dungeonland and The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror - DwD, HW, DW35, FG6, WD48
 * Danger at Dunwater - DwD, HW, Wired, FG2, WD44
 * Fiend Folio - HW, Dragon55, DW15, WD12, WD28
 * In Search of the Unknown - DwD, HW, Wired, Sha28, WD13
 * Queen of the Demonweb Pits - HW, DMfD, Dng116, Wired, TSG35
 * The Lost City (Dungeons & Dragons) - DwD, HW, Dng116, Wired, DW28


 * Against the Cult of the Reptile God - HW, Dng116, FG1, WD44
 * Blizzard Pass - HW, DW37, FG1, WD45
 * Castle Amber (module) - DwD, HW, Dng116, WD35
 * Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set - HW, Dragon84, DW12, DW34
 * Palace of the Silver Princess - DwD, HW, DW19, WD35
 * Player's Handbook - HW, WD10, WD12, WW17
 * The Assassin's Knot - HW, Dng116, TSG71, WD55
 * The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun - DwD, HW, Dng116, WD44
 * The Ghost Tower of Inverness - HW, Dng116, Wired, WD40
 * The Secret of Bone Hill - DwD, HW, DW16, WD35


 * Beyond the Crystal Cave - HW, FG1, WD48
 * The City of Greyhawk - HW, WW20, Dragon156
 * Curse of Xanathon - DwD, HW, WD48
 * Dragons of Flame (module) - HW, TSG73, WD67
 * Dungeons & Dragons Expert Set - HW, DW12, TSG38
 * Dungeons & Dragons Master Rules - HW, VIP2, WD73
 * Greyhawk Adventures - HW, Dragon143, WW13
 * Night of the Seven Swords - HW, TSG81, WD86
 * Night's Dark Terror - HW, Dragon124, WD78
 * Oriental Adventures - HW, Dragon134, WD74
 * Quagmire! - HW, TSG72, WD70
 * Queen of the Spiders - HW, Dng116, WD85
 * Ravenloft: Realm of Terror - HW, Cha46, WW23
 * Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil - DMfD, Dng116, Pyramid (online)
 * Spelljammer: AD&D Adventures in Space - HW, Dragon154, Cha43
 * Swords of the Daimyo - HW, TSG81, WD80
 * Temple of Death - HW, TSG75, WD55
 * ‎The Complete Wizard's Handbook - HW, Dragon169, WW23
 * Treasure Hunt (module) – HW, Dragon125, WD93
 * World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting - HW, Dragon46, TSG33

‎*Bloodstone Pass - HW, VIP2
 * Adventure Pack I - HW, WD92
 * Adventures in Blackmoor - HW, WD86
 * Arena of Thyatis - HW, Dragon171
 * Bestiary of Dragons and Giants - HW, Dragon148
 * Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide - HW, Dragon171
 * Castle Caldwell and Beyond - HW, VIP2
 * Cities of Mystery - HW, Dragon152/156
 * City of the Spider Queen - DMfD, Dng116
 * City System - HW, Dragon156
 * Conan Unchained! - HW, TSG73
 * Creature Catalogue - HW, WD85
 * Dark Clouds Gather - HW, VIP2
 * Day of Al'Akbar - HW, WD87
 * Destiny of Kings - HW, WD80
 * Dragons of Desolation - HW, WD67
 * ‎Dragons of Faith - HW, Adv3
 * Dragons of Glory - HW, WD78
 * Dragons of Hope - HW, WD67
 * Dragons of Mystery - HW, WD70
 * Dragons of War (D&D module) - HW, VIP2
 * Drums on Fire Mountain - HW, WD70
 * Dungeon Geomorphs - HW, TSG41
 * Dungeon Master's Guide - HW, WD16 (but there's got to be more)
 * Dungeon Master's Design Kit - HW, Dragon171
 * Dungeon Masters Adventure Log - HW, TSG33
 * Dungeons & Dragons Companion Set - HW, WD61
 * Dungeons & Dragons Immortals Rules - HW, WD83
 * Dungeoneer's Survival Guide - HW, WD82
 * Earthshaker! - HW, VIP2
 * Egg of the Phoenix - HW, Dragon133
 * Eldritch Wizardry - HW, TSG7
 * Empires of the Sands - HW, Dragon140
 * Forgotten Realms Adventures - HW, WW23
 * Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting - HW, Dragon129
 * Ghost of Lion Castle - HW, TSG75
 * Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes - HW, TSG9
 * Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins - Dragon252, Sha50
 * ‎Greyhawk Ruins - HW, WW24
 * Horror on the Hill - HW, FG6
 * Journey to the Rock - HW, VIP2
 * King's Festival - HW, Dragon171
 * Lankhmar – City of Adventure - HW, WD76
 * Legions of Thyatis - HW, Dragon171
 * Lords of Darkness - HW, Dragon151
 * Master of the Desert Nomads - HW, TSG71
 * Maze of the Riddling Minotaur - HW, FG6
 * Midnight on Dagger Alley - HW, TSG73
 * Monster & Treasure Assortment - HW, TSG36
 * Moonshae - HW, Dragon140
 * Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure - HW, TSG73
 * Mystery of the Snow Pearls - HW, VIP2
 * Night Below: An Underdark Campaign - Arc4, Dragon234
 * Ochimo: The Spirit Warrior - HW, TSG81
 * Planescape Campaign Setting - Pyr8, WW43
 * Player Character Record Sheets - HW, WD86
 * Puppets (module) - HW, Dragon171
 * Queen's Harvest - HW, Dragon171
 * Quest for the Heartstone - HW, WD63
 * Rahasia - HW, TSG73
 * Ravager of Time - HW, Adv3
 * Red Hand of Doom - DMfD, Pyramid (online)
 * Requiem: The Grim Harvest - Sha33, Arc14
 * Return to the Tomb of Horrors - Dng116, Dragon252
 * RPGA Tournament Handbook - HW, Dragon133
 * Ruins of Undermountain - Dng116, WW30
 * Saga of the Shadow Lord - HW, WD89
 * Swords & Spells - HW, TSG11
 * Swords of Deceit - HW, WD82
 * Swords of the Undercity - HW, TSG80
 * Tall Tales of the Wee Folk - HW, Dragon164
 * The Book of Lairs - HW, WD86
 * ‎The Castle Guide - HW, WW27
 * The Complete Book of Humanoids - Dragon205, WW38
 * The Complete Fighter's Handbook - HW, WW23
 * The Complete Priest's Handbook - HW, WW23
 * The Complete Thief's Handbook - HW, WW23
 * The Forge of Fury - DMfD, Dng116
 * The Gauntlet (module) - HW, WD60
 * The Gem and the Staff - HW, TSG71
 * The Immortal Storm (module) - HW, WD84
 * The Magister - HW, Dragon147
 * The Mines of Bloodstone - HW, WD88
 * The Orcs of Thar - HW, Dragon148
 * The Principalities of Glantri - HW, Dragon129
 * The Sentinel (module) - HW, WD60
 * The Veiled Society - HW, WD63
 * The War Rafts of Kron - HW, WD70
 * Time of the Dragon - HW, Dragon161
 * Tomb of the Lizard King - HW, WD45
 * Top Ballista - HW, Dragon164
 * Waterdeep and the North - HW, Dragon140
 * When a Star Falls - HW, TSG73
 * Wilderness Survival Guide - HW, WD85

Discussion
Now, you ask, what should we be working on? Well, all of them! :) Obviously, the ones with the most refs have the most potential to move forward, on to GA at the very least. Nearly everything on this list meets the bare minimum threshold for notability, so why not nurture and improve the ones at the bottom of the list, even if they may never make it to GA?  The main task is to find sources.  I'll add what I can, although my resources are limited. If you've been around, you know what I'm capable of when I have the time and energy to get to it.  :) BOZ (talk) 02:45, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Holy crap, that's a lot! - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 17:00, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, we can work on them in a reasonable manner, of course - I just didn't want to leave anything out. :) BOZ (talk) 17:24, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I also started a related thread on ENWorld. BOZ (talk) 02:31, 6 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I guess it becomes a matter of preference, that is, one or two prime movers who have a hankering for improving a particular article. Also trying to think about what might be the most interesting to read, the GDQ series comes to mind as a module series integral to the early development of AD&D. So that'd be my vote. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure we can work that out. :) G-series is already a GA, and a push can get it to FA. "Descent" and "Queen" are pretty much solid C-class articles at this point (Descent may even really be a B), so a bit of work and you're at GA. I requested a peer review for Descent some time ago, so there are probably hints there on what can be done. BOZ (talk) 04:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * D'oh! Forgot about that - in which case, yeah, Descent into the Depths of the Earth next. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:04, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

One of the posters from ENWorld shared the reviews from Space Gamer #35, which include The Village of Hommlet, Slave Pits of the Undercity, and Queen of the Demonweb Pits! I shall be adding these to the articles as soon as possible. :) BOZ (talk) 15:12, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Going to try working today on The Temple of Elemental Evil, getting the review for The Village of Hommlet in there. :) BOZ (talk) 17:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Got the review for Slave Pits of the Undercity into Scourge of the Slave Lords. :) BOZ (talk) 21:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Added the review for Queen of the Demonweb Pits - yay! Any more reviews?  :) BOZ (talk) 22:29, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Another poster from ENWorld shared his copy of Shadis #50, which allowed me to give long-needed improvements to the late-90s Greyhawk revival products Return of the Eight, Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins, and Greyhawk Player's Guide. :) BOZ (talk) 17:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Just noticed that Challenge and another magazine called Adventurer also published D&D reviews - it's late and I don't feel like checking that out at the moment, but you bet I will. :) BOZ (talk) 07:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Those turned out to be not all that much. Adventurer was a short-lived British mag which, as far as I know, only reviewed a couple of modules in one issue. Challenge was GDW's house organ from the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s; they did a fair number of reviews, but from the sampling on RPGnet it doesn't look like they focused much on D&D. Oh well, I added what I found on both to the reviews list page. :) BOZ (talk) 15:24, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow RPGnet, you rock! I just discovered another magazine that reviewed D&D products (among other RPG stuff, of course), called Arcane. It was a short-lived British publication that ran circa 1996-1997. You know what that means? Well, the end of the TSR era of course, so there is a gap in coverage, but before that we had the end of the "campaign settings" era, so if you were a fan of Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Birthright, Planescape, or Ravenloft, it looks like you would be in luck if I can get access to these mags. ;) BOZ (talk) 05:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Decided to go to my local public library today, and I found out that they have a copy of Heroic Worlds! :) God, if only I had the hours and hours it would take to truly utilize this entire book... if only I hadn't lost my library card!  ;) It truly does have a reference to every single RPG book (as far as I know) published up to the 1991 publication date of the book. Most such references are in the form of a short paragraph, but some are only a sentence or two. Many of these entries merely describe the product and its contents, but some do provide actual commentary that can be used for the Reception section. While I'm here, as time permits, I'll try to add as much as I can to as many articles as possible. Need to do some other things first. BOZ (talk) 00:14, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought about it and realized that it wouldn't matter if I had my library card; the book is kept in the Reference section anyway so it's not for circulation. C'est la vie, got to make the best use of my time, then. :) I went back and did more yesterday, so now every article about an RPG book in the FA and GA categories, as well as Isle of Dread which is listed as a B-class, is about as thoroughly referenced to Heroic Worlds as you're going to get. :)  I'll go back tonight, and probably tomorrow as well, and do the same for some of the 20-odd C-class articles about RPG books, and probably some of the more important Start-class articles.  There are hundreds of D&D books, so I may never truly have the time to get them all if I'm devoting my personal time at the library at an hour per trip (up to two hours if I feel like it).  But, I will do what I can for the cause of improving D&D articles on Wikipedia.  :)  If I ever find the opportunity to get my own copy of the book, that would be ideal. BOZ (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought I would be able to get more time in last week, but no go. Working on Scourge of the Slave Lords, The Keep on the Borderlands, and Desert of Desolation kept me pretty busy tonight! :) I've got more coming soon, though, so don't you worry. I may come back tomorrow, but I think I am more likely to wait until Wednesday. :) BOZ (talk) 00:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As promised, did more today. :) Got Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, Descent into the Depths of the Earth, Monster Manual, Deities and Demigods, and The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. Will try to pick this back up next week. :) BOZ (talk) 00:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Managed to find some time today after all. :)  Got to work on The Temple of Elemental Evil, Battlesystem, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Fiend Folio, and In Search of the Unknown. Further work really will have to wait until next week, this time. ;) BOZ (talk) 00:15, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Got back in there and fixed up Dungeonland, The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, The Lost City, Danger at Dunwater, and Player's Handbook. :) BOZ (talk) 00:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Got more today, including the Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, Castle Amber, Palace of the Silver Princess, and The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. :) BOZ (talk) 00:05, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Did a bunch more tonight, including The Secret of Bone Hill, The Assassin's Knot, The Ghost Tower of Inverness, Against the Cult of the Reptile God, Blizzard Pass, Oriental Adventures, and Dragons of Flame. :) I could have kept going, but I'm fairly tired and will save a couple of biggies for the rest of the week. BOZ (talk) 01:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Got a few more today: Dungeon Master's Guide, Dungeons & Dragons Expert Set, ‎World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting, and Queen of the Spiders. Will try to come back for more tomorrow or the day after, but no promises. :) BOZ (talk) 00:55, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Really productive tonight! Got Greyhawk Adventures, Dungeons & Dragons Master Rules, Temple of Death, Swords of the Daimyo, Beyond the Crystal Cave, Quagmire!, Night of the Seven Swords, and Curse of Xanathon. :) That's it for this week, time for a few days off boys and (maybe?) girls. Next week I am actually on vacation from work, so I will be relaxing at home, might be up to other Wiki-stuff and maybe not too much. I will most likely take an excursion to the library one or two days for a bit to make more progress here, though. :) BOZ (talk) 00:59, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * BOZ, as always, great work. Hobit (talk) 06:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. :) BOZ (talk) 08:06, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I lost my mind, and went completely crazy today. :) I got, count 'em, 21 done!: Treasure Hunt (module), Tomb of the Lizard King, The Mines of Bloodstone, Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, Bloodstone Pass, Eldritch Wizardry, Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes, Swords & Spells, Horror on the Hill, Maze of the Riddling Minotaur, Ghost of Lion Castle, Journey to the Rock, Swords of the Undercity, Castle Caldwell and Beyond, Earthshaker!, Mystery of the Snow Pearls, Dragons of War (D&D module), Dark Clouds Gather, Ochimo: The Spirit Warrior, The City of Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms Adventures. Now, I may go back again on Thursday or Friday, but hey - haven't I done enough already for the week? ;) We'll see - if I find that oppotunity, I will get to work. BOZ (talk) 22:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Back to work, today! :) Got several articles taken care of, none of which had any citations until now (although, to be fair, I did just start most of them last week): The Complete Fighter's Handbook, The Complete Thief's Handbook, The Complete Priest's Handbook, ‎The Complete Wizard's Handbook, Ravenloft: Realm of Terror, ‎Greyhawk Ruins, ‎The Castle Guide, ‎Dragons of Faith, Ravager of Time, and Spelljammer: AD&D Adventures in Space. More to come! BOZ (talk) 02:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Another good day, got: Dungeons & Dragons Companion Set, Master of the Desert Nomads, The Sentinel (module), The Gauntlet (module), The Veiled Society, Quest for the Heartstone, Dragons of Hope, Dragons of Desolation, The War Rafts of Kron, and Drums on Fire Mountain. Will try to go back for another round tomorrow, but no promises. ;) BOZ (talk) 02:23, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Got a few more done today - done for the week! I think this week was my most productive so far. :) Taken care of are: Dragons of Mystery, The Gem and the Staff, Conan Unchained!, Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, Midnight on Dagger Alley, When a Star Falls, and Rahasia. BOZ (talk) 01:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * More done today: Lankhmar – City of Adventure, Night's Dark Terror, Dragons of Glory, Destiny of Kings, Swords of Deceit, Dungeons & Dragons Immortals Rules, ‎and The Immortal Storm. Will likely follow with more tomorrow! BOZ (talk) 04:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Got in there and got some more done, with more coming tomorrow almost certainly: Wilderness Survival Guide, Creature Catalogue, Adventures in Blackmoor, The Book of Lairs, ‎Player Character Record Sheets, Day of Al'Akbar, ‎and Saga of the Shadow Lord. BOZ (talk) 05:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, kiddies, that's a milestone. I'm not done, not by a long sight, but today I just completed work on all the articles which we know have at least one review in some magazine somewhere. So, all of the items listed above have at least two known independent reliable sources, which in the eyes of some people makes most of them at least just barely "notable" by the standards of WP:GNG. So what does that mean?  Starting tomorrow, I will be hitting all the articles which dont't currently cite an independent reliable source, and that (as far as we know) don't have some review somewhere in some magazine. I counted the books featured in Heroic Worlds, and that makes for well over 100.  It's going to be my goal to try to get that done by the end of the year, but we'll see. :) Thanks for your support so far, and on as I go! BOZ (talk) 05:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Today I finished The Shady Dragon Inn, Combat Shield and Mini-adventure, The Lost Island of Castanamir, The Kidnapping of Princess Arelina, The Book of Marvelous Magic, To Find a King, The Bane of Llywelyn, The Revenge of Rusak, Master Player Screen, Waterdeep and the North, The Bloodstone Wars, The Throne of Bloodstone, and The Bloodstone Lands. I chose to start "phase 2" with these articles, because each of them already had a citation to Heroic Worlds, so that made my job a little easier. ;) Starting (probably) tomorrow and from here on out, I will be working on those with no review nor a citaiton to HW (and many with no citations at all), so watch me work. ;) BOZ (talk) 02:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I had the day off of work, but somehow that didn't stop me from getting some work done. ;) Today, I took care of Original D&D set, Greyhawk supplement, Blackmoor supplement, Dungeon Geomorphs, Monster & Treasure Assortment, Dungeon Master's Screen, Non-Player Character Records, Permanent Character Folder & Adventure Records, Dungeon Masters Adventure Log, The Rogues Gallery, Monster Cards, To the Aid of Falx, The Investigation of Hydell, The Egg of the Phoenix, Doc's Island, and The Final Enemy. May or may not go back for more tomorrow - we will see. :) BOZ (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I motored through 15 articles about modules today: The Forgotten King, The Elixir of Life, Black Opal Eye, Conan Against Darkness!, The Forest Oracle, Eye of the Serpent, All That Glitters, Test of the Warlords, Death's Ride,Sabre River, Blade of Vengeance, Lathan's Gold, Dragons of Ice, Dragons of Light, and Dragons of Deceit. BOZ (talk) 03:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I put in some overtime and got through 16 more articles about modules: Dragons of Dreams, Baltron's Beacon, Isle of the Ape, Where Chaos Reigns, Into the Maelstrom, The Savage Coast, Red Arrow, Black Shield, Thunderdelve Mountain, Dragons of Truth, Dragons of Triumph, Red Sonja Unconquered, The Tree of Life, Temple of the Frog, Vengeance of Alphaks, Twilight Calling, and RPGA Tournament Handbook. BOZ (talk) 02:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * More today, might have a big day tomorrow if I go: Dragonlance Adventures, Moonshae, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Needle, Egg of the Phoenix, Adventure Pack I, Manual of the Planes, Under Illefarn, Blood of the Yakuza, Realms of Horror, and Bestiary of Dragons and Giants. BOZ (talk) 07:30, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Big day indeed! Had the day off, so I pulled another two-hour session.  That's it for the week: The Book of Wondrous Inventions, In Search of Adventure, The Endless Stair, Legacy of Blood, City of the Gods, The Duchy of Ten, The Grand Duchy of Karameikos, The Emirates of Ylaruam, The Principalities of Glantri, The Kingdom of Ierendi, The Wrath of Olympus, The Best of Intentions, Five Coins for a Kingdom, Talons of Night, Skarda's Mirror, Crown of Ancient Glory, Mists of Krynn, World of Krynn, The Shattered Statue, Dungeon Master's Design Kit, Empires of the Sands, The Magister, and The Savage Frontier. BOZ (talk) 21:30, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Back to work! ;)  Today, I got: City System‎, Dreams of the Red Wizards‎, Swords of the Iron Legion‎, Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms‎, Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw‎, Tales of the Outer Planes‎, Lords of Darkness‎, Ruins of Adventure‎, Castle Greyhawk, The Elves of Alfheim‎, The Dwarves of Rockhome‎, and The Northern Reaches. Won't be back there tomorrow, but Friday should give me a couple of hours to work with, if all goes well. :) BOZ (talk) 02:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Good progress yesterday: The Five Shires, The Minrothad Guilds, The Orcs of Thar, In Search of Dragons, Dragon Magic, Hall of Heroes, Cities of Mystery, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Shadowdale, Tantras, Waterdeep, Gateway to Ravens Bluff, The Living City, Monstrous Compendium, Trail Map series, Fate of Istus, Gargoyle, Child's Play, Puppets, Vale of the Mage, King's Festival, Queen's Harvest, Dawn of the Emperors: Thyatis and Alphatia, and The Republic of Darokin. Now I have fewer than 30 remaining!  Woohoo!  :)  Should be able to finish up Heroic Worlds next week with no problem. BOZ (talk) 18:53, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm a step away from done! I plan to wrap up Heroic Worlds on Friday. Completed today are: The Golden Khan of Ethengar‎, Tall Tales of the Wee Folk‎, Top Ballista‎, Dragon Dawn‎, Dragonlance Classics‎, Dragon Keep‎, Otherlands‎, Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide‎, Old Empires‎, Storm Riders, ‎Black Courser‎, The Forgotten Realms Atlas‎, Inside Ravens Bluff, The Living City‎, Thieves of Lankhmar‎, and Wonders of Lankhmar‎. BOZ (talk) 03:57, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And, done I am! One final hour working on Heroic Worlds got me finished with: Ronin Challenge, Test of the Samurai, Wildspace, Skull & Crossbows, Time of the Dragon, Falcon's Revenge, Falconmaster, Arena of Thyatis, Legions of Thyatis, The Shadow Elves, The Sea People, The Horde, and Hollow World Campaign Set. I had more free time, so I spent one more hour paging through the book's sections on AD&D and D&D to see if I missed anything, and although I hadn't missed anything of significance, I decided to go ahead and start up Best of Dragon Magazine and the Judges Guild module Dark Tower. I'd say I probably used up only 10% of Heroic Worlds; although I got all the D&D products, there is a ton of info on many different RPGs, and general info on the D&D game as well, but I'm done with that book for the forseeable future and hopefully someone else will pick it back up at some point. I have a lead on more magazine sources, but for now I really need a break.  :) BOZ (talk) 12:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Going to add a couple of reviews hopefully tonight - been busy for a while. :) Hopefully people will help me come up with more magazine reviews in the not-too-distant future. BOZ (talk) 02:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I also added the two issues of White Dwarf from which I am missing reviews, to my index. As far as I know (crosses fingers) there are no more. BOZ (talk) 03:19, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Still looking... BOZ (talk) 03:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hope to make more progress sooner or later. :) BOZ (talk) 17:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I will finally have the time this month or next month to get back to working on this. :) BOZ (talk) 14:43, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I know I have promised before, but this time I mean it! ;)  Oh well, I want to get back to this, but I will do it sooner or later.  I found a review for Descent Into the Depths of the Earth from Different Worlds, which I will do as soon as I am ready. BOZ (talk) 18:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)