Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Encyclopaedia Britannica/Archive 2

1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica Use Guidelines?
What are the guidelines (if any) for using material from the (copyright free) 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica? Can it be used verbatim? Are there plagiarism issues? Is there a standard (boilerplate?) for citation? Sorry if this has all been discussed before someplace. I've looked but I couldn't find such a discussion. Paul August 03:09, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * Use it verbatim and slap a tag on it. &rarr;Raul654 03:12, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * ..and have fun wikilinking all the appropriate names, words and phrases! &mdash;Stormie 03:23, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)


 * You should take a look at 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica Just slapping a tag on is really not enough.  This encyclopedia is replete with scanning typos and archaicisms and other unsuitable material.  It can hardly ever be used without some hard work. The article  (I wrote it back when) is full of hints and ideas about how to adopt and/or adapt material from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.  Incidentally, I have two copies of the EB1911 and will be glad to check things for you if asked nicely.  Ortolan88 04:11, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Ortolan88: Thanks for the great article! As regards to the content issues: scanning errors, out-of-dateedness, I had mostly figured them out for myself.  My primary concern, was/is with the legal/ethical/intellectual honesty issues.  Is it a correct reading of the article that it is inappropriate to copy and paste content from online versions of 1911?  That you must have access to your own copy of the text to use it? Paul August 15:17, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)


 * The 1911 Britannica is out of copyright, so there's no legal problem using it. It's certainly polite to cite Britannica as a source.  Beyond copyright problems, plagarism isn't really an issue here.  So providing you don't claim 1911 Britannica's works to be your own, I can't see any ethical problems.  It's probably inappropriate to cut'n'paste from 1911 only because of the scanning, out-of-datedness, etc., issues.  Naturally, it's downright illegal to cut'n'paste more than a trivial amount from later Britannicas. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 15:48, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Many of the brief biographies in 1911 Britannica can stand with little modification, mainly because little work has been published on the subjects since. Certainly the language wants tweaking, but the basic facts are often sound. Much of the writing about British subjects was based on the DNB which appeared a decade or so previously. One thing I am not clear over is how many of the articles are a carry-over from earlier editions. The three additional volumes which make the 12th edition were published 1921-22 and so are out of copyright as well. If somebody could scan and put that on line it would be an incomparable resource for WWI topics. What is the prospect of Wikimedia building up a bank of online out-of-print resources for Wikipedia contributors? Apwoolrich 16:07, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The online version also lacks the numerous illustrations, diagrams, maps, photographs, circuit schematics, etc. that form important parts of many articles in the original, particularly articles on science and technology. I haven't checked to see how the online version deals with the 1911 Encyclopaedia's frequent use of tables and mathematical formulae, but I'll bet it doesn't do it well. [[User:dpbsmith|dpbsmith (talk)]] 16:10, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * It doesn't - those things just appear as gibberish in the middle of the text (which compounds the bigger problem of missing text, that happens even more often). Adam Bishop 15:45, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I have just noted that Knight's 3 vol Dictionary of Mechanics, c 1880 is on line. Tbis has a great number of good quality line drawings of all manner of machines and mechanisms of the C19. Maybe that is in public domain. I will put a page about this in the Dictionary section when I can get round to it. Holidays are now due!!Apwoolrich 16:50, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

1911 Britannica : Old but interesting articles
I have a hard copy of the 1911 Britannica. There are some articles that are outdated, yet still very interesting. The "Calculating Machines" article for example is about the state of the art in computers in 1911. Theres very little useful information there to incorporate into Wikipedia, but it is still fascinating to glimpse what was happening in computers at the time.

Any thoughts on how this would incorporate, if at all, into Wikipedia, or perhaps a diffrent Wiki project? Stbalbach 21:43, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * My thoughts are that surely you shouldn't need to worry about whether or not to add such topics when there are extensive Wikipedia articles on entirely fictional universes. I mean, there's actually a Klingon Wikipedia! So obscure facts are, I assume, the least of people's worries. zoney &#09608; &#09608; &#09608;  talk 22:19, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Read 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica if you haven't already. I think the bottom line is, as long as it is still relevant, even if only as a historical record, by all means do so. Just remember to note as a reference. In the specific case you raised, History of computing hardware would probably be the place to add stuff from "Calculating Machines", if it's not already there. In general, biographies would have their own articles, but most general science, technical, etc. topics would probably be best in =History= sections of related articles, if you can find a place to work it into the natural flow, but you should also check if there's already a "History of..." type article, and add it there if anything's missing. If you can't make it flow naturally in a related existing article, make a new article, but make logical links to it from relevant topics--no point in creating orphans. Also, Wikipedians are generally encouraged to be bold with their contributions. For example, wherever you put this content, if there's a better place, it will eventually get there, but it can't if it's not entered somewhere in the first place. Niteowlneils 23:09, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Isaac Newton (in depth) was taken from the 1911 Britannica, but the scanned copy online was incomplete, missing a section or two at the end. It's been on my mind ever since, it would be really great if we could fill in the gap. -- Tim Starling 00:10, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * Ok I'll put Newton on the list of things to look into. Stbalbach 00:32, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The 1911 Britannica is great. I have a hard copy of it, too, and I browse it for pleasure. The online version, in addition to being grotesquely full of scanning errors, is missing all the pictures. I also have the three-volume supplement that was added in 1922 and brings it up to date with all the latest advances in aviation from the Great War. There is plenty of stuff in it that is just fine. And a lot of things that give context and depth (it's very odd to read an article about nutrition that doesn't mention vitamins, for example!). [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 00:54, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * yeah I picked it up for $150 from a local book seller, it's been a cheap entertainment investment and theres nothing like dealing with huge old tombs of leather books that weigh 7 pounds a piece and smell like a grandfathers smoke room, it reminds you of how diffrent electronic versus real books are.. it's like the diffrence between grape "drink" and a bottle of good wine, we are missing something for all the benefits of electronica.


 * They're probably only tombs if you happen to be buried under a pile of them. On a shelf, they are (probably :o) just tomes. Incidently - man that's annoying - I wish my local bookshops had such items for such cheap prices. I'm guessing 1911 EB would be at least twice the amount here in Ireland (but probably a lot more!). But then again, when one can pay €3/$3.50 (or more) for a cappucino here, it's not too surprising. Bah! Stupid indigeneous economic jungle cats. zoney &#09608; &#09608; &#09608;  talk 11:51, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Tim Starling the Newton updates are done, it is the complete article. Stbalbach 07:29, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * There are __so many__ mistakes, particularly with dates, in the online scanned edition that I am tempted to believe they are deliberate. After all 1911encyclopedia.org goes into great detail about how it is against their terms of service to copy the public domain text. I can't help but find that site a bit of an insult to the original! Pcb21| Pete 08:15, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * And I've found, without trying, a couple of items in Wikipedia that reproduced errors. Fixed them, of course. Without doubt there are others. Can anything be done to prevent these liftings? Dandrake 23:04, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

Articles in 1911 EB not always reliable
When I made investigations for the German articles about Félix de Azara and José Nicolás de Azara, I found that several dates in the existing articles in several Wikipedias (en, fr, es) are inaccurate or simply wrong. That articles are based on 1911 EB. So I recommend to verify any information carefully. Don't simply copy it - even that from the EB. They weren't and they aren't immune against making mistakes. --EvaK 23:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * They may be inaccurate but are historically accurate from a 1911 timeline point of view. To say that these articles are wrong absolutely is an inaccurate observation. A more accurate observation remark is that these articles are outdated. -- S iva1979 Talk to me  19:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Please don't misunderstand me. I never claimed that 1911 EB's articles are absolutely wrong. I simply gave a warning that those articles might contain mistakes, even from the perspective of 1911. Therefore it is necessary to check such information carefully before using it. --EvaK 01:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Possible notes from the operator of 1911encyclopedia.org
Comment moved from the article page; it belongs on this talk page: The fact that whoever wrote that used the term "copywritten" rather than "copyrighted" implies that they have a poor grasp of copyright law   &mdash; PhilHibbs | talk 15:55, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Updates about use of online versions
I made some changes in the past 24 hours, mostly to reflect recent discussions of how to use the text as source for WP articles, and driven by a debate on the status of the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition article; see the three threads on its talk page starting here. David Brooks 16:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

What was the best then?

 * The "myth" of the EB1911 being the best and greatest Encyclopedia is a testament to a successful marketing campaign which usually doesn't hold up under critical examination

I'm not denying there were problems with the EB1911 but this statement seems to imply it was not the best encylopaedia at the time. But the simply question then is what was? Just because it was flawed doesn't mean it wasn't the best available. Many of us like to think wikipedia is the best encylopaedia but very few of us deny wikipedia has many problems Nil Einne (talk) 19:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism
On the off-chance anyone has this page still watchlisted, some EB 1911 discussion is taking place at Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism. Carcharoth (talk) 22:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Added { { unreferenced } }{ { POV-intro } }
The intro currently reads:

The "myth" of the EB1911 being the best and greatest Encyclopedia is a testament to a successful marketing campaign which usually doesn't hold up under critical examination.

Is an opinion of an opinion, and nether are sourced.

In my opinion [which I writing on a talk page and not in an article] It should be just dropped.

The Page read like a WP help file and not an encyclopedic Topic. So just leave opinions out of it. And put facts in the actual article Iff if can be sourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.219.42.60 (talk) 19:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yebbut - this is a project page in the Wikipedia namespace. It's not an article ("encyclopedic topic"), so strict article standards don't apply. In fact, many WP namespace articles are help files. I've removed the unreferenced template for that reason. The POV template, while technically true, may also be considered only applicable to articles, but I'm not sure. Standards for the WP namespace are probably somewhere between articles and talk pages. David Brooks (talk) 21:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:1911 talk
Template:1911 talk has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.  Eastlaw talk · contribs 03:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Miscellaneous conversation 3
I read this talk page and the old one. I saw the copyright claim on their site '5. Use on Other Web Sites...' Someone mentioned it here before. Right now I am still a bit confused. So many opinions. Is the text in 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica the final conclusion or still subject to debate? Erik Zachte


 * I own two copies of the 1911 Encyclopedia. Every word we use was typed by hand from one or the other of them.


 * Lets say, just for argument, that someone simply cut and pasted an article from the online version of the encyclopedia, used a good deal semi-verbatim, edited a good deal more, quoted the encyclopedia directly on some occasions and it came out looking like Richard Francis Burton in the context of an online encyclopedia that looks nothing like the EB1911 and consists of 90 per cent non-EB1911 material. It's more than spellchecking, it's an entirely different use in an entirely different context.


 * They don't want someone to make money off their encyclopedia. Nothing we are doing is likely to cause us any trouble in the real world.  And, if it does, we'll just rewrite it some more and press on.  The Wikipedia does not depend on EB1911.  I'm sitting here with two copies of the EB1911, six or seven dictionaries, and the entire Internet and the Minuteman Interlibrary Loan system at my disposal, not to mention a well-stuffed brainpan and hundreds of other people editing everything I see.  I'm not just cutting and pasting from one source.


 * As long as we edit the EB1911 material, and it desparately needs it as the editing guide on the subject page makes clear, and we don't advertise that we are in any way the Britannica, and no more than ten percent of the Wikipedia even traces its ancestry to the EB1911, I am thinking that we'll have no problem, and, should we have a problem, it is easily fixed by rewriting some articles. There's no Britbot importing Britannica by the ton, there's a few people -- ten, a hundred, no more -- using a damn handy online version of an out-of-copyright reference book to make some articles.Ortolan88 04:38 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

Legally, in the US there is no 'typographical' copyright, so nobody can make any legal claim to ownership over the text of the 1911 EB, no matter how many typographical changes they make, and the law requires 'creativity' in the creation of copyrightable 'derived works', which rules out any kind of 'random changes to establish copyright' scheme. Anyone providing a version of the old EB only holds copyright over articles (or sections thereof) to which they have made fundamental significant changes.

Similarly, (and more relevant these days than this old talk), the provider of an online facsimile of a PD work might have a /license agreement/ restricting the rights of the person accessing it, and they might have an 'typographical' copyright over format and arrangement of the page images themselves, but they have no rights over the actual PD content itself. Also, it's a principle that "you can't copyright a photograph of the Mona Lisa", so the actual typographical content of the book itself can not be reproduced to establish a new typographical copyright. IOW, I can't publish page images and then claim 'prior art' to prevent you from publishing your own, independent page images.

Honestly, you're in more danger from the possibility of EB claiming violation of trademark rights if someone screws up.

On a tangential note, the article names are all, I think, technically wrong, since the ae in the EB trademark is not a ligature, it is the latin letter Æ. The 'Encyclopaedia' in EB is in Latin, not 1800's English. I might be incorrect due to WP naming policies, though. Revent (talk) 05:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Template:1911 not needed all the time?
In the second paragraph, I suggest Wikisource1911Enc Citation or 1911EB as possible substitutes for 1911, as has been my practice; but perhaps some people would prefer they be used in tandem with it. Verbatim use of 1911 text in Wikipedia is certainly to be practiced very cautiously, with the guidelines suggested in this article, but I think many times a link to Wikisource allows the reader to assess the sort of reliance on 1911 without additional cautions from the 1911 template, even when verbatim use has been made of the 1911 text. If additional cautions are warranted, probably one of the other 1911 templates should be used. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 12:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * There are now a number of templates (See here), the two major ones are:
 * Cite EB1911 —
 * EB1911 —


 * Both are wrappers around cite encyclopedia bot fill in some fields and allow most of the common parameters to be set on the interface line. The most useful facility is the parameter wstitle=EB article that allows an article on Wikisource to be included as in
 * Rather than without the wikisource link:
 * --PBS (talk) 12:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * --PBS (talk) 12:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * --PBS (talk) 12:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Encyclopaedia Britannica
I have moved this page from 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica to WikiProject Encyclopaedia Britannica to give the effort some focus as a WikiProject I have left the original text in place but surrounded it with text copied and modified from WP:WP DNB which is a similar project. The Project page will need fettlieng, but that can be done now that the text is in place. -- PBS (talk) 12:49, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I removed the 1911 from the title as this project can also cover WP:EB9 and WP:EB1922 editions (see Wikisource EB1911 and EB9 and EB1922. -- PBS (talk) 12:59, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with no article parameter
As this request was posted to two different pages on Category talk:Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with no article parameter (and at talk:Encyclopaedia Britannica Eleventh Edition), it struck me that there was no central clearing house for such requests such as this. So taking a lead from WP:WP DNB I created WP:WP EB and this talk page.

Now that this talk page exists I have copied the thread from Category talk:Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with no article parameter so that others can see it and comment if they wish:  I just edited a few of the articles because I was bored, but was initially misled by this category's name. Admittedly the instructions tell me to add "title=xxx", but I at first added "article=xxx" on the basis of the name. Can the category name be easily changed? Should it? David Brooks (talk) 21:36, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi David Brooks, It can be done but it would be a bot job as there are as I write this 9,466 articles that would have to be changed. The point is that I think article parameter is fine as the article parameter can be either wstitle= if there is an article on Wikisource (and one day all of them will be there) or title= if the source is somewhere else. If we were to change the name what name would you want to use? -- PBS (talk) 12:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * (ping PBS) Fair enough. If you're still reading, another question (which I also posed on Talk:Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition). I came across one article, Abbas I of Egypt, which has both a 1911 and a Wikisource1911enc template. By adding wstitle to the first, I generate two copies of the same link in close proximity. What's your feeling about this? I'm fine with it, but should the guidance be extended to ask for both changes in the case of 1911 articles that don't have a Wikisource1911enc? David Brooks (talk) 16:35, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

-- PBS (talk) 14:10, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the edit to Abbas I of Egypt one down :-)
 * Wikisource1911Enc is a redirect to EB1911 poster. EB1911 poster should only be used if the article neither cites cite EB1911) or attributed text EB1911 are included.
 * When using cite EB1911) EB1911 please do not add the article as an unnamed parameter (this depreciated and in future will be passed on to the underlying template cite encyclopedia and handled as an unamed parameter eg:
 * instead user "title=" or "wstitle="
 * If an article includes text or information from an EB1911 no only should the template be placed in the references section, but incline citations to that source ought to be included (to meet WP:CHALLENGE and WP:PLAGIARISM). See this edit to Abbas I of Egypt  -- PBS (talk) 14:47, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * If an article includes text or information from an EB1911 no only should the template be placed in the references section, but incline citations to that source ought to be included (to meet WP:CHALLENGE and WP:PLAGIARISM). See this edit to Abbas I of Egypt  -- PBS (talk) 14:47, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

A display parameter
Copied from my talk page:
 * Also, I just found another problem with the templates (after all these years). Some articles in wikisource contain a disambiguation descriptor in parentheses, which is absent from the encyclopaedia itself. I just edited George Abbot (author) which links to the Wikisource article "Abbot, George (writer)". However in the printed book according to the online scans the article is just "Abbot, George" (one of two with the same heading). It's not strictly accurate to describe the EB1911 article as "Abbot, George (writer)"; that's not what the original book says. I don't think either the EB1911 or the Wikisource1911Enc template has the capacity to effectively pipe the text to the differently-named article. I left that page in an inconsistent state so you can see what I mean. Thoughts? David Brooks (talk) 22:01, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Please use rather than the redirect  as  the name is a de facto standard (see WikiProject Wikisource/Citation Uniformity) 23:13, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * There are many existing uses of the older template. I can change them if I happen to have a page open for edit. David Brooks (talk) 23:53, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * That is what I do (and the same with 1911 to EB1911). -- PBS (talk) 10:44, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The way it is handled in other similar templates is to add a display=title displayed parameter — see for example Doc: using display, and  incorporates such a feature with its second parameter. I have not added one to the  templates (a) because you are the first to request it and (b) because it complicates the code (which makes maintenance more difficult, and may introduce side effects) for little gain, as Wikisource is not an exact copy of the style of names used in EB1911 (For example the original book uses upper case names but Wiksource deliberately uses upper and lower case. If however you think that it is of real benefit then it can be added to the templates. -- PBS (talk) 23:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I rather think I do. The template links to wikisource, so it is defensible to use the modified name (although, as you say, the display parameter is available anyway). The  and the Cite variant explicitly refer to the original book. As you say, for full fidelity we should use all caps, but that's probably going too far. David Brooks (talk) 23:53, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * OK I'll add it if no one else does. I'll post here when I (or someone else) adds it. -- PBS (talk) 10:41, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Done.  now works (see George Abbot (author)). -- PBS (talk) 13:07, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll go back and fix those I already edited. I also made a small edit to the doc. David Brooks (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Attribution markup
PBS, I notice that you added an ;Attribution definition header in middle of George Abbot (author). I've been out of the loop for the evolution of source citation conventions: is there a normal expectation for having this header inside a References section, and what criterion would you use for putting something within this sub-section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidBrooks (talk • contribs) 17:41, 22 November 2013‎
 * I placed a reply to a tangential question on your talk page (here) to you still need further clarification as to why I did what I did? -- PBS (talk) 17:37, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw your comments about "Endnotes" to introduce the EB small-print (thanks). My question was about guidelines for whether and when to use ";Attribution" to precede the entire sequence. David Brooks (talk) 20:55, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * There were several discussions about whether it is acceptable to include text from PD sources a couple of years ago with several influential editors against any such inclusion. Their position is that all text from third party sources that are not quoted or added with in text attribution (Fred Amith said that ...) should be summarised, and that copying text was plagiarism. However as there were already tens of thousands of articles with copied text and as many editors or more who thought PD sources could be included, so a compromise was reached. It was agreed that references to copying should be clearly marked so that it was clear to everyone where the text originated and that it had been copied, (as plagiarism is the surreptitious copying of anthers text then PD text marked as copied can not be plagiarism). See WP:PLAGIARISM for detailed guidance and more specifically in answer to your question see Where to place attribution in that guideline. -- PBS (talk) 08:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

1911encyclopedia.org says "This site is no longer available."
, (I went to http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Main_Page and checked, and) : '''the Main_Page says, [quote:] "Thank you for visiting the 1911 encyclopedia. This site is no longer available."

Is the Project Page [still] assuming that this web site [mentioned above] is available? ...and if so, then should that "Project Page" be edited to include this info?

Just "FYI" ... --Mike Schwartz (talk) 11:05, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks I have replaced he dead urls with some others. However it would be nice to use the Project Gutenberg html versions, but the volume that Anarchism appear in is 8-megs, so a different example is needed (as 8 megs is rather large from some browsers to handle and costs money for those on pay as you go contracts), but I rather like Anarchism as a jokey example. So if someone else has a better example to replace it with that uses a small Gutenberg project then please do so. -- PBS (talk) 18:12, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Eventual addition of EB1911 poster
Another detail about the WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/1911 verification and Category:Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with no article parameter projects. Sometimes I come across an article in the verification list that contains no text drawn from EB1911 itself, so there is no call for a EB1911 or cite EB1911 template. In that case, if there's an article in Wikisource, the convention is to add a EB1911 poster.

But if the Wikisource article doesn't exist yet, but may be added later, is there a way to call attention to the fact that this article should then be postered? See, for example, B. E. K. Ten Brink. Is it normal for the Wikisource editors to cross over to Wikipedia and look for places to put a poster? If not, I can create a hidden category, something like "articles that need EB1911 poster included".

All this assumes there is actual significant activity on the Wikisource and the two maintenance projects. David Brooks (talk) 20:18, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The other is to place a cite EB1911 in "Further reading" and the "title=" parameter with or without a "url=link" to an external website. Then some time in the future someone can link in a Wikisource title. The hidden category it would be place in is Category:Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica without Wikisource reference (see Baghdad Vilayet for an example). -- PBS (talk) 12:20, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I hadn't noticed. Looks like the 1911 and EB1911 templates do the same. (ETA) To be strictly correct, the template should be in Further reading, because I'm talking about those cases where the article actually contains no EB1911 copied text so it doesn't qualify as a reference. David Brooks (talk) 21:45, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * cite EB1911 can also be placed in "External links" if no "Further reading" section exists but an "External links" does. Of course EB1911 would not appear in "External links" or "Further reading" as it is for attribution which goes in the Reference section. BTW if you fill out an legacy 1911 please update it to EB1911, EB1911 is slightly more efficient as 1911 is redirect, and it is more descriptive. Eventually 1911 will be phased out, although I suspect it will take a long time for that to happen as there is no reason to run a bot job to do it.
 * BTW all the categories could be broken down further so identify problems with templates in "External links" and "Further reading" (eg with an alternative Category:Wikipedia articles incorporating Cite EB1911 in External links without Wikisource article, but I see no real advantage to doing this and a couple of disadvantages. As these are hidden categories, and every "if statement" we put into a template to populate different categories slows down the time it takes to load the page (and new categories can take days and sometimes weeks to populate themselves) placing ever finer granularity in editors hidden categories is of no direct benefit to readers and harms readers with marginally more tardy page refreshes. Besides such a new category is not of much practical use, as the template still eventually gain a Wikisource whether it is in "Further reading" or "References". PBS (talk) 01:05, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Wikisource, article and other unused parameters
See Template talk:EB1911 -- PBS (talk) 11:15, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Finding references by title= when a WS version is created
If I create (directly or by transclusion) a new article in Wikisource, then in principle any EB1911 or Cite EB1911 references to that article using a title= parameter should be switched to a wstitle=. But how do I find them? Checking the equivalent Wikipedia article would get most of the way there, but I know there are some WP articles that reference an EB1911 article with a different title (biographies that are grouped under a common ancestor for example, or a completely different modern name that lacks a redirect from the old name).

Or not sweat it, and just go with the 90% solution of editing the single equivalent article? Or realize there are more important things to spend my time on? David Brooks (talk) 22:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * @David Brooks Did you find a solution to this? If you have not found a better solution, then you can use Wiki search (text) in AWB. I tried it using the search sting  it seems to work as it throws up two pages: Earl of Essex, and Arthur Capell, 1st Baron Capell of Hadham. -- PBS (talk) 10:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Looking at the article Arthur Capell, 1st Baron Capell of Hadham I noticed that you remove the EB1911 attribution from it. Why did you do that? -- PBS (talk) 11:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * @PBS To the first, thanks for the tip. To the second, that was back in March, but note I replaced wstitle with title (there's no WS version yet) and replaced EB1911 with Cite EB1911. The second change is rare, and I generally do it when the WP article is not an obvious copy of 1911, but still has 1911 as a valuable secondary source. Or because the article is a shallow rewrite. I haven't checked if that's the case still, and don't remember if I completely understood that rule in March. David Brooks (talk) 17:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

When to use Britannica.
I am asking on Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources, when can EB be used as a source? Because there is this project, it looks as if it can be used. If so, why are some editors under the firm impression that it shouldn't be?

On another point. This particular article seems to be mostly about using the 1911 edition. I can't see much about using the latest versions, particularly the free online version, which I fine very useful. Myrvin (talk) 09:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)


 * This project is about using versions of the Encyclopaedia Britannica which are in the public domain and so can be copied word for word providing the requirements of the WP:PLAGIARISM guideline are met along with the three content polices and their guidelines. Basically don't copy text which is known to be out of date, for example most scientific information, and Edwardian era views on racial, ethnic and religious characteristics. Most geography information is only suitable for a history section. Having said that the EB1911 is a very useful source for biographies and histories.
 * With regards editions of the Encyclopaedia Britannica published after 1923 one has to be careful only to summarise articles and not to copy them verbatim as they like most other works after that date are subject to copyright.
 * If you would like to give examples of where "some editors under the firm impression that it shouldn't be" I would be happy to review what they have written and see if I agree with it. -- PBS (talk) 10:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I have now been told that about this project. The article in question is David Hume, where, in the latest GA review, citing EB was one of the reasons given for a reviewer saying s/he couldn't recommend promotion to GA. I had spent days carrying out the scores of changes asked of me, so, when I was told that, I asked them to fail the article. I don't look at that article any more - nor do I do GANs. Myrvin (talk) 13:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It depends on who carries out the GAN some are more flexible than others, but in that case I think the reviewer had a point. Citing EB to support facts is one thing but using an encyclopaedia to support opinions is another. However I am not much interested in GAN and FA status -- I find the process has too many people who either can not see the wood for the trees or who are very political over the processes involved in "promoting" articles -- so I will improve articles, but I don't care if they do or do not have gold stars (its like being back at school!). This project and the others at WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles are much less political and I find more friendly. A days work on porting text from WP:Wikisource to Wikipedia can improve Wikipedia far more than a day reformatting citations in an article to meet the wishes of someone reviewing an article for GA status. For example, two days ago, I copied the text for biography on John Howell (polyartist) from the DNB article on Wikisource. It was fun to do because his life reads like the stereo-typical mad inventor, and while I doubt it will ever be a GA, I am sure in the long term it will became a more comprehensive article than anything else available on the net, a modest but worthwhile objective. -- PBS (talk) 16:45, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Adding Wikisource titles to EB1911 templates
Hi all, I've started going through this category: "Category:Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with no article parameter" and adding a "wstitle=xxx" to the entry on the Wikipedia page (where xxx is the Wikisource EB1911 article name, if one exists). Not every EB1911 article exists yet in Wikisource but all articles from "A" up to "" — at time of writing do exist.

If you feel like lending a hand by going through the articles in the above category, please do - it will be appreciated. On 31 Jan 2015 there were 8001 articles in the above category, now down to 7718 and falling. I didn't find a Wikisource article for the first 21 or so articles in the category "Aethiopica" to "Ambliara State" (usually the Wikisource article is listed later in the alphabet and hasn't been created yet.)

If you also feel like proof-reading or creating Wikisource articles for the EB1911 you can use the already-proofread Gutenberg version e.g. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33550/33550-h/33550-h.htm as a source. Thanks. &emsp; DivermanAU (talk) 03:53, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Welcome DivermanAU. If you find that there is no wstitle as yet. If you can add the volume parameter (and if known the page number), and leave the parameter as title=the name it ought to be, then those who follow in your footsteps will have a little less work to do. Also if the template is please change it to  -- PBS (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Also I noticed with this edit you entered an unnamed parameter instead of using the named wstitle= parameter. Please do not do that, as eventually the unnamed parameter will be passed strait into to return the same red error message is it would without this wrapper. Also you added that new source to an existing references section, without adding new text or inline citations. In such cases such additions ought to be added to the "Further reading" section or to an "External links" section as it is not being used to support the current text in the body of the article.   --PBS (talk) 18:07, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi PBS, thanks for picking up on an older edit of mine on Callias, my bad. I've more recently been correcting other instances where an unnamed parameter has been used. The Category:Wikipedia articles incorporating text from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica with an unnamed parameter on 27 March 2015 contained 50 entries. I've now reduced that to single figures. DivermanAU (talk) 21:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I picked it up in category:Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with an unnamed parameter. That was at over 100, but I have just completed running a script on it and added wstitle= to all of them. I'll help you with the other one. -- PBS (talk) 22:22, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for you work PBS! A scripted fix sure is faster. Did all the the articles that were in those categories have an existing Wikisource article? Nearly all did as I found, but there were a few which didn't. Thanks again. DivermanAU (talk) 02:42, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * All of the first sweep were standard no named parameter called, but the template script text is not that complicated (which it why it would best to pass it into CS1 let Lula handle them with its best guess in red), so if for example as happened with Zug there was a missing named parameter called   (diff), then of course it is not a missing   parameter but something else. If you run AWB and would like the script then let me know. It has grown organically and is now about 42 lines long in normal setting (+ some advanced settings). It handles both those that start with "cite name" and just "name" eg  and  for the following (EB9|EB1911|EB1922|NIE|AmCyc|Appletons'|Collier's|DNB|CE1913|NSRW|SBDEL|Americana|Nuttall|PSM|EBD) simultaneously. I developed this "fix" multi template ability, because there is one editor who last time I looked was not using name parameters for any of those templates and often adds links to articles on wikisource for articles from multiple books simultaneously. This script saves multiple runs. -- PBS (talk) 09:23, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * On rereading your question, I see that you are asking another question. I am assuming good faith and that an unamed parameter will only have been added if the link exists to wikisouce (As I do with named parmaters). If it does not, then that is a different problem which I am not addressing. Eventually we should be able to run a test of the wstitle names against the wikisource (and see if there are any links to a non-existent title). -- PBS (talk) 09:31, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Let me add my welcome too, DivermanAU. If I recall correctly, you were Diverman but the cross-wiki sync made you change your name, and you've already been looking around different instantiations of EB. I would add one ask to PBS's: if there is no WS article and you are using the title/volume/page parameters, notice that there is a URL parameter too. Those of us (or is it only me) plugging through the 1911 verification project will usually have a window open to an online authoritative source, so it's little effort to paste the URL into the template, giving reference-followers easy access to the source. For example, see David Gray (poet). I use archive.org (here) because it has a cleaner scan and is easier to navigate than the version we use on wikisource, although it is a different imprint (Cambridge vs New York).


 * I think you already know some or all of this, but in case not: The EB1911 inclusion and reference project has been trundling along for at least 10 years, and has had to keep up with global changes in Wikipedia and Wikisource. You are doing valuable work, and I don't want to imply that you should do more, but if you are interested in following the breadcrumbs all the way on a particular article, we have people who:

Let me repeat the welcome though. Every bit helps. David Brooks (talk) 19:35, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Create, proofread, or validate the Wikisource Page Space page that contains that article. The index is here and the project page is s:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica. This is a fairly complex task with its own methods, and with conventions still subject to discussion (see the talk page). But thanks to transclusion the retyping, or OCR fixup, only needs to be done once. For an example, see s:Page:EB1911 - Volume 19.djvu/1028.
 * Transclude into Page space. Instructions are on the same project page. Example: s:1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia Britannica/Ockley, Simon.
 * Work on the Wikipedia page (Simon Ockley) as you are doing. If the article is a direct copy with little or no added material, use EB1911 in the Notes or References. If it contains bleeding chunks as well as other material, use inline. If it could use EB1911 as a citation for otherwise uncited claims, use Cite EB1911 instead.
 * Notate the subpage under WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/1911 verification to mark that you have done the verification.


 * Hi David Brooks and thanks for the welcome. Yes, I was "Diverman" until they forced a name change on me. Thanks for your tips above; for others who may be reading this, I'd like to restate (mentioned above) that I've found the Gutenberg version of EB1911 useful as it's already proofread (I use the "page source" on the HTML version). I use macros in Notepad++ to change HTML markup to Wiki markup e.g.  to '' for italics etc. Then it's pretty much a copy and paste into the Wikisource EB1911 page. I also use the Gutenberg version to grab images and upload to Wikimedia Commons. Then transclude the EB1911 page in the Wikisource article, e.g. 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Boiler. DivermanAU (talk) 02:01, 15 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Cool tools, and thanks for starting to get the images into shape. I was always daunted by the Commons formats, licenses, and category structure!

I've been thinking about the history of the EB1911 project(s). After the initial mass-import from an old OCR, or from one of the corrupt online versions, the focus was on going through and correcting the errors. There were surprisingly few, and we switched to worrying about NPOV: "the fuzzy-wuzzies are a vicious race and their women smell bad.". Then to worrying about historical context, hence the Update-EB and related templates, which in turn spanwed spawned the verification project. But that was overtaken by the WP-wide emphasis on source citation. So now we go through WP articles fishing out and notating direct and indirect EB references, while not forgetting the occasional corrupt text, anachronisms (I just came across one yesterday at Ochsenfurt) and fuzzie-wuzzie insults. It's fascinating and complex, and I've learned more than I ever thought possible about now-forgotten 16th-18th century British notables. David Brooks (talk) 02:22, 15 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks David for the details about the EB1911 project, quite interesting (as Stephen Fry might say!). The EB1911 pages I've worked on recently do have a number of errors, e.g.. It was missing the first seven words and some examples of scan errors: "gratihed" for "gratified"; "amb1t1ous" for "ambitious" and "xx here" for "where". The Gutenberg version is generally quite good, I found a few errors in Gutenberg in superscripts and accents on the page mentioned above but it's a great help. By the way Category:Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with no article parameter down to 7,699 and falling.


 * I have noticed in general that the Gutenberg version doesn't use ndashes (–) for date ranges, they have hyphens (-) so I fix those. Also it tends to have no space between a person's first two initials e.g. "A.B. Smith" instead of "A. B. Smith"; I fix those too as the printed EB1911 has the space there and uses ndashes. My user page on Wikisource contains a table of some EB1911 mis-scans I've come across, later I'll do a search for the mis-scans to see if they are present in other articles once the EB1911 project is more complete. — DivermanAU (talk) 19:47, 15 April 2015 (UTC)


 * For sure there are plenty of scan errors on the Wikisource main namespace. I was referring to the greater importance of correcting those errors that were duplicated into Wikipedia main. Perhaps the users of wikisource are more likely to understand and tolerate errors there (and they should only be fixed by reference to the scans; sometimes it looks like an error but is just an anachronistic spelling). David Brooks (talk) 22:28, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Regular expressions in Wikipedia searches
Recently I was working on some template chart and was show a useful trick. It is possible to put regular expressions into the Wikipedia search engine. I have not been able to find a guideline or a help page that documents it, if such a thing exists please add it in this section. So I am going to explain how it works with an example.

I wanted to find all the pages that are still have links to 1911encyclopedia.org inside the EB1911 and 1911 template and redirect I can do it using  inside the Wikiepdia search box on the top right of the page: insource:/\{\{[EB]*1911[^\}]*1911encyclopedia.org/i

For those reading this who do not know what a regular expression is I will explain what the above means
 * -- means treat the next character as a character and not an instruction (this is needed because some characters tell the parser what to do, so  means treat the next character as a character. What is it? It is a '\' character!
 * --means take what is in the square brackets and either match it or ignore it
 * --means take what is in the square brackets and match it one or more times.
 * --any character but the next one, or put it another way: not the next character

There are lots of other codes but that is one more than is need for this example. So the current regular expression can be read like this:
 * -- Tell the search engine what is coming is a regular expression
 * -- end of the regular expression "i" says ignore case
 * -- look for "{{"
 * -- followed by "EB" or no "EB"
 * -- followed by 1911 -- ie to this position in the regular expression "{{EB1911" or "{{1911"
 * -- one or more character that is not a "}" --This makes sure that the search remains inside the current template.
 * -- the string inside the template we are interested in finding.

For those of you who use AWB to help in various ways you will find  mentioned in the AWB manual under Wiki search (text)

For those who know how regular expressions work yes! There are some simplifications assumed with this code, but it works as it is on the current data set.

-- PBS (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Good catch! But one comment. In all RE engines that I know, [EB] means "either E or B". So [EB]+ would match BEEBE for exampole. I think what you are looking for is (EB)*. David Brooks (talk) 17:41, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You are right of course, but I did not want to go there. The [EB]* would match EEEBBBB or BEB or any other combination of that (along with lowercase ebEbBe etc), but it worked for this data subset which we are looking at as I know that there are no  -- PBS (talk) 19:52, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * What are you redirecting 1911encyclopedia.org to? I general use archive.org URLs, but it's hard to construct them programmatically. David Brooks (talk) 17:41, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not! I fixed a couple yesterday, because they started with "A" and I know that most of A now have Wikisource. This was really only to demonstrate that regular expressions can be user in searches. But back to this particular problem unfortunately I can see no consistent naming strategy that 1911encyclopedia.org used, so automatically mapping onto another source could prove to be difficult. I will play around a bit as see what comes out. -- PBS (talk) 19:52, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I think I may have found a copy of this OCR source at http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/index.html the problem is that the pages are grouped alphabetically under subpages, the letters with lots of entries are split into two (eg /a/ and /a2/) and they have grouped last names of people into the appropriate letter and the file names are lower case:
 * so
 * http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Don_Miguel_Ricardo_de_Alava
 * becomes
 * http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/a/don_miguel_ricardo_de_alava.html
 * Given that the links are to a poor OCR version of the pages I am not sure it is worth writing the necessary AWB code to convert them. --PBS (talk) 08:34, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed we shouldn't link to low-quality when we have access to a very high-quality version on archive.org. But (a) the URLs are inconsistent (encyclopaediabrinn versus encyclopaediabritnn at random) (b) it's organized by page number. So linking to them automatically would require knowledge of both. In my manual updates I've been copy/pasting URLs - and, where the article spans an even and odd-numbered pages, using the "2up" parameter to open directly to the spread. Google has copies but they are stained with their watermark. David Brooks (talk) 18:35, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Citations to individual E.B. authors
Hello. I found the existing citation template to be unsatisfactory. So far as I can tell, most or all of the 1911 E.B. authors were identified with their initials at the ends of their articles. It is very helpful to a WP reader to know exactly who wrote the info in any given WP article. Thus, when rewriting an article on the history of Sweden from 1772 to 1809 (current version is here), I used a normal reference from each E.B. paragraph source, and I incorporated the name of the author, which can be linked to a WP article about him, if there is one. The citations to each sourced paragraph are at the bottom of the page, here. If a new editor comes along and changes a paragraph, or finds later sources, he or she can simply use a citation to the new source. I hope this is satisfactory to all. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 02:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Never mind. I found another template at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_EB1911. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 02:37, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Glad you found it. Both EB1911 and Cite EB1911 have optional first and last name parameters. As you probably know, you can find the name in the volume's front matter, or if the article has been migrated to wikisource it's often linked from the initials. One problem I've always had is that EB identifies people by their full name, and I've never decided whether to drop the middle name or include it under "first". David Brooks (talk) 19:55, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Copy and pasting text from the searchlight version
copied from my Wikipedia user talk page:

 OK, I've spent the day working on the EB1911 template and the wikisource version. I actually began by copy and pasting text from the searchlight version

https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/bri/

under the impression that I would easily be able to link them to the appropriate templates (other John Schonfeld, a random article that I remembered had this problem with the template and the (accent)Eduard Lartet article, all the articles I worked on were in the X-Z field). As fate would have it, it turned out that the only articles that had template links were ones that were not listed on searchlight under Z.

https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/bri/browse.cgi?l=z

Which led me to one of the problems with that site - sometimes the articles are placed under the first letter of the given name ie, Aaron Burr is put under A rather than B. (This seems to be particularly true of Hispanic and German names.) Also articles for letters like Z apparently are not available and the entire section of articles starting with X is not available from the contents page (I had to use the search function).

All the articles that had a parallel with an EB1911 article X-Z have been linked up. In the majority of cases I had to create the article on wikisource using searchlight. In one instance it was another language confusion Xàtiva needed to be linked to

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/J%C3%A1tiva

which already existed. Another Zerhoun does have a listed EB1911 article under the name Zarhón and yet, I cannot find it on searchlight. These and the other remaining articles needed a template link illustrate the problems we have been having - there is no article in EB1911 for Zona Austral of "Southern Zone", it could be under the EB1911 article Chile, but I do not want to link it without being sure that that was were the text was from; the same with Karl Eduard Zachariae von Lingenthal and Alexander Ypsilantis, there are EB1911 for the formers father and the latters family, but I'm not sure if I should link to those pages. Also cannot find Zhetysu despite searching the dozen or so variant spellings; nada for Johann Zahn, Caroline Yale and Zapotec peoples.

For the new wikisource articles I have created, I only transferred over the text and the bare metadata predecessor, successor and wikipedia article. They probably need to be proofread and given whatever treatment the wikisource team usually gives to its articles. Also, I've been working on an EB1911 project with John Mark Ockerbloom on the Online books Page, this is our preliminary draft

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/metabook?id=britannica11

Hope this helps.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 03:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Current state of the YXZ articles that have EB1911 template and need links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_articles_incorporating_a_citation_from_the_1911_Encyclopaedia_Britannica_with_no_article_parameter?from=Xa

--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 03:16, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I think a lot of this is better addressed at s:Wikisource talk:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica. But here I would just like to say that you do not have to copy the source over to wikisource to link to it. For example here is one I worked on a few minutes ago:



--PBS (talk) 21:25, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

While it may be expedient to link to a third source in the short term, in the long term Wikisource articles will be used, so to make the transition easier use the names provided in the wikisource indexes eg 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Vol 28 VETCH to ZYMOTIC DISEASES as they tend to be more accurate than the names used on sites like studylight.org. -- PBS (talk) 22:00, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * In the long term, wouldn't it be best to link to the page images from archive.org? That would send the reader back to the original source.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 23:50, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * In the long term, linking to a machine readable verified copy of the original on Wikisource is best. In the mean time the link you suggest is the best alternative. I have more to say on this issue of verification over on Wikisource. -- PBS (talk) 19:54, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree with PBS. One possible flag is that the archive.org copy is the CUP imprint, while the scans that we use for the verified WS copy is the American (not sure of the publisher). I think the body content is the same; does anyone know if they used the same plates? Otherwise the only obviously visual differences are contextual (printer marks in the footer for example). David Brooks (talk) 23:33, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

How do you challenge text copied from the EB?
Several years ago I failed to notice that the article was mainly a copy of an EB article and added some fact tags, which were quickly reverted with the statement that the everything was sourced. What should I have done? Thanks. Doug Weller talk 11:37, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Instead of adding tags added inline citations to the EB article. If you can remember the article name we can have a look at it. -- PBS (talk) 19:49, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Attributing EB 1911 articles
From my talk page:

 I saw your changes to WikiProject Encyclopaedia Britannica; I agree it's overdue to be modernized, in case new interested users show up (such as the fairly new user Dicewitch). One change stood out: the recommendation to use Chisholm 1911, p. 914. . I thought we were pretty much standardized on which has several advantages. Did you intend the naked form?

Also, I now dislike Attribution as superfluous and too eye-catching, but I recognize that's a reversal from what I thought a couple of years ago. David Brooks (talk) 13:48, 12 October 2016 (UTC)


 * While through preference I use, I thought it better to keep it simpler for editors who are looking to this section for advise. If you think that it better to put into the example  I will not object.


 * More generally I thought it better to update the wording because:
 * I think. and am on record over many years, that what some call "General References" (long citation in a References section without supporting short citations embedded in the text) do not meet the requirements of WP:V.
 * Since we introduced the warning undefined into the template, it is far more likely that editors will be looking for how to get rid of it, so the old wording was now less helpful than it used to be.


 * The wording is only a first cut and I am sure that it can be improved. -- PBS (talk) 05:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

As to Attribution. It serves a useful practical purpose of moving attribution to the bottom of what may be a crowded References section see for example Alexander I of Russia. It also serves a practical Wikipedia political use of preventing those who do not like copied PD text accusing editors who participate in doing it of being plagiarists, as plagiarism is the unattributed addition of text (something that can not be said when it is clearly displayed in a References section under bold text of Attribution). You will find the accusations in various places including Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism archives.-- PBS (talk) 20:08, 14 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with your points 1 and 2, and they guide me. For short articles (the original is less than one page in bulk, even if spread over two pages), I prefer the inline EB1911|inline=1 method, because (as I've pointed out before) it takes two clicks to get to the citation, while with sfn it takes three. For longer sources, I do use sfn because it includes a more specific signpost.


 * Re Attribution: the EB1911 template already includes a copying acknowledgment, so the plagiarism charge is already addressed. I guess Attribution makes it somewhat less subtle.


 * ETA: I think I understand the value of the Attribution flag when the reference appears among several others, comparing the before/after of this edit. But I still find it superfluous when the attribution is clear in a ref/inline content. It may just be a judgment call at this point; obviously the important goal is to annotate the article one way or the other. David Brooks (talk) 13:23, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we are agreeing here. I would have made the same call on that edit, and if there are only one or two bullet pointed references in the references section (as is often the case) then I don't add a bold attribution line. -- PBS (talk) 21:05, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

No more links to www.1911encyclopedia.org
Hi, just thought I'd let people know I've recently been focusing on removing links to the defunct website www.1911encyclopedia.org in EB1911 templates and using Wikisource links instead. e.g. Costermonger was the last one I did.

I used this search string which someone else posted: insource:/\{\{[EB]*1911[^\}]*1911encyclopedia.org/i  to find them. There were 223 articles found using this search on 28 April 2016, now they are all gone. DivermanAU (talk) 10:10, 16 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks, great job. I especially appreciate your including the page numbers. David Brooks (talk) 13:13, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Seconded -- PBS (talk) 14:16, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Changes to template:Cite EB1911
There were recently changes made the. I reverted them. For a discussion see Template talk:Cite EB1911, and the first section on the talk page Talk:Nicolas-Théodore de Saussure. -- PBS (talk) 00:04, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * tried another change to the template, but it's invalid for the reasons that you explained and I reverted that. David Brooks (talk) 12:23, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Wikisource: EB1911 to G
I have had a correspondence from Slowking4 (who is currently blocked on Wikipeida) to say that he has been working through EB1911 articles on Wikisource and that he is about "halfway through EB1911 - vol 12 out of 28, when 28 and part 27 is done.... so around 2500 could be linked now. around 5-10% will be harder, as false positives or different name conventions are hard to fix." and wants people who can edit Wikipedia to concentrate on the first half of Category:Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with no article parameter so that the EB1911 on Wikisource can be linked to the corresponding Wikipedia article and vice versa with a link in the empty template in those articles.

For more details I suggest that you contact Slowking4 directly at wikisource:user talk:Slowking4

-- PBS (talk) 22:04, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * As it happens, I recently pulled a list of articles that (a) have a title parameter but the article is in wikisource; many of these aer due to Slowking4's work (b) have a wstitle parameter but isn't in wikisource (usually because of a mis-spelled wstitle) (c) have a URL that isn't at archive.org. There are currently 588 such, and I'm working through them. Of course, this excludes the much larger group that has neither title nor wstitle, which accounts for many on the list, I think, and I'd agree would be higher priority. David Brooks (talk) 04:14, 29 November 2016 (UTC)