Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision/Archive 2

Category:Eurovision contestants and daughters
I recently came across Category:Eurovision contestants, which contains 377 articles. One of its daughters, Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by country, contains three subcategories: the contestants for the UK, Turkey and Estonia. I suggest creating such categories for all participating countries, using the format Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants for Foo. This is technically the most correct option, since not all contestants represented their own country. Monaco has sent French citizens, Canadian singer Celine Dion has represented Switzerland, Andorra sent a Dutch singer one or two years ago, etc. Category:Eurovision contestants and Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by country are basically redundant with each other, so either one of these can be deleted. Any thoughts on this? A ecis  No running, shouting or piddling in the shallow end 22:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Just thought id add that the UK Eurovision page sounds a little bias (ir not neutral!) Just a thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.104.173 (talk • contribs)
 * Could you provide a link to the article you are talking about? A  ecis  No running, shouting or piddling in the shallow end 22:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

ESC 2007 and 2008
I started the 2008 page but i need more info. About 2007. How about we put all the pictures of the Eurovison Hearts under a section. eg. Eurovision Heart of Montenegro 2007. these hearts are quite easy to find and will be easy to get our hands on when the new ESC site is up later in 2007.

Any more ideas? --Celticfan383 20:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

external links are missing in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congratulations_%28Eurovision%29
two of them which refer to the eurovision website. I think the links should be fixed to point where they intend. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.69.238.184 (talk) 18:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

Eurovision 2007
Eurovision 2007

Let's be very practical and spread the message widely

vote for west europe to save the contest

VOTES ONLY FOR SPAIN- FRANCE- SWEDEN- FINLAND- IRELAND- UNITED KINGDOM- GERMANY-

I'm not voting for my Favorite Moldova, Ukarine & Georgia

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Littledaniel_93"

Eurovision Song Contest 1990
The article Eurovision Song Contest 1990 needs to be cleaned up. The wording is very flowery, the article reads almost like a review. One example: "The lyrics of several entries celebrated the whirlwind of democratisation that had engulfed central and eastern Europe with bewildering speed in the preceding months, focusing especially on the iconic moment of the Berlin Wall being breached in November 1989. However, the winning song was an even more sweeping evocation of European unity, in anticipation of the completion of the European single market, due at the end of 1992." Such a wording is very beautiful to read, but unfortunately it's not encyclopedic. It might be used in other articles as well. A ecis Brievenbus 23:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Tidying that kind of thing up is on my to-do list once the song articles are done. Anyone else is obviously welcome to jump in and make a start, but it'll end up getting done by hook or by crook sometime soon. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 00:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Image and Class.
Hi. I've added an image, and the assessment classes to the project template. Said template really should be on more pages. Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 02:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Eurovision GAs
Just thought I'd mention that Flying the Flag (for You) and Melodifestivalen have both been listed as GAs in the past week. Kudos to User:Sceptre for his work on the former. Chwech // gurgle 13:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

why you are ignoring the Eurovision Dance Contest?
Everytime I try to add information about the Eurovision Dance Contest in any Eurovision-related page is deleted, also in the temple.. I would like to know why the Eurovision Dance Contest is also organized, managed, produced and broadcasted by the EBU and the same commitee that runs Eurovision Song Contest and the Junior edition.
 * The Song Contest article here is about the Song Contest. The Dance Contest is a dance contest, and has nothing to do with the Song Contest apart from being organised by the EBU also. You may as well say that, since "Only Fools & Horses" is a BBC programme, that article should have a "See also" section referring to "Red Dwarf" - because it's also made by the BBC! Nope: the two have nothing to do with each other. Although I can see why you might think so, because they share the "Eurovision" name. But there are many other programmes (less well-known) which also share the "Eurovision" name, and are organised by the EBU. Sorry - but simply having the word "Eurovision" in the title does not automatically mean that it's related to the Song Contest. It's not. Unlike the Junior Eurovision Song Contest, for example, which is a direct spin-off from the ESC. EuroSong talk 08:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Related Wikiprojects
If you want to include a "Related WikiProjects" section on your project page, you could use

-- TimNelson 09:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Melodifestivalen
Melodifestivalen is a featured article candidate at the mo. Comments much appreciated here. Cheers. Chwech | hum-dee-hum-hum 11:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion of Eurovision articles in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject European Union
You guys might want to have a look over here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject European Union. Some support would be welcome!

Anyone whose interested might also want to read my (now archived) discussions with Alphachimp: User talk:Alphachimp/Archive 14 and User talk:Alphachimp/Archive 14. Caveat lector 11:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: WikiProject Europe
I was noting down the related projects for WikiProject European Union and number of small European projects as I was going round. How do you guys feel about a parent "WIkiProject Europe" to link together as many European projects at the top (not merge, unless some fell the need to)? It could help discussion and cooperation between projects and possibly reduce overheads for the smaller ones. In addition for areas with no project of their own. Where a project has few members or is inactive, a common peer-assessment could help them move forward.

Ideas? For central discussion, see WIkiproject EU talk page -  J Logan t: 11:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion via WP:PROD

 * Yorgunum Anla 11 August

Melodifestivalen is at FAC again
...and not getting many reviews. Please take a look here. Thanks.  Chwe ch  11:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

CfR notification
I have recently nominated a number of categories related to the Eurovision Song Contest for renaming. I would like to ask for the input of the members of this WikiProject in the discussion, at Categories for discussion/Log/2008 March 10. A ecis Brievenbus 20:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Individual Song Articles
I was wandering around and stumbled on some of the song articles listed for Eurovision. You might want to take a look at WP:Music if the article can't be expanded past just the infobox and a few lines about how it was used at Eurovision, it should probably be added to the article about the person who sang it on the show. I started working on Eurovision 2008, but then discovered this page and thought I might let you know. Thanks for the great work everyone! LegoTech &middot;( t )&middot;( c ) 04:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Eurovisionman
I guess the members of this WikiProject, especially admins, might be interested in this user and his/her actions. The account has been set up solely to edit the article on Isis Gee and the related one on her entry in this year's contest, mostly consisting in adding a paragraph reporting on unfavorable comments done by BBC's commentators - may I add, reporting which I find a bit imbalanced and POV, but first of all, not really encyclopedic in terms of notability of the subject.

What is more worrying that that, however, is the user's outright removal of my reply to his comment in my web page urging me not to revert his edits. I do not find this an acceptable way of discussing Wikipedia edits. I would appreciate more members chipping in to the discussion and expressing their views. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've reverted him. Sardonic comments are normal for ESC. It's part of the culture.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 01:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"Country in ESC" articles
Do Egypt, Jordan and Libya require articles on their "particpation" in the Contest? With a country like Tunisia or Lebanon it makes perfect sense, as those countries did go somewhat in the direction of participation, even if they didn't make it onto the stage proper. I'm thinking WP:CRYSTAL when I write this - there's nothing sourced that an article can say, other than "X can participate in Eurovision, because it is in the EBU", but surely the list of members at European Broadcasting Union already serves that purpose. Any comments?  Chwe ch  16:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well it seems the consensus at Articles for deletion/Kosovo in the Eurovision Song Contest is to keep them (it looks like the article on Scotland will be deleted, but for different reasons). Fair enough, in that case.  Chwe ch  15:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  21:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have updated the Template:EurovisionNotice to accept C-class and Template-class. I have also fully protected it per standard practice as it has over 1000 transclusions making it vulnerable template to vandalism/inappropriate edits. I could however lower the protection to semi-protection temporarily if any non-admin wishes to make some big changes to it, otherwise please add the edit protected template to the talk page if you want to make any changes and you cannot edit it. Camaron | Chris (talk) 15:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just wondering...Do we have a list class? If we don't, we should. Grk1011 (talk) 15:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it is missing, though we do have Featured list class. I will add it now as it is quite a simple non-controversial task. Camaron | Chris (talk) 15:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess list articles went straight to featured on this project lol. Does it have imputs for a start list, stub list, etc? Grk1011 (talk) 15:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, the template now accepts List-class. In answer to your question no not at present, with the Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment scale List is an almost exclusive rating for lists independent from Stub, Start, C, B, GA, A, and FA which are for non-list articles - Featured list being the only other input suitable for lists. It would be possible to introduce a Stub-list-class grade or similar for this project but it would more difficult than adding C, Template, List to the template as these grades are part of the scale and have agreed colours/background templates e.t.c. such as Template:C-Class. Currently this template can only have one input at a time - the rating/class, the big one missing is importance and I think this project is big enough now to think about introducing it. Camaron | Chris (talk) 15:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea, we're missing the importance. I suppose we can just copy the format from another banner to make it easy. The different classifications for lists can be put on the back burner for its not very important. Grk1011 (talk) 15:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, code from other templates could be borrowed, though it would still require quite a lot of tinkering with the template. I agree that different classifications for lists is not important, and I know no project that does that. Camaron | Chris (talk) 16:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Project Page
I think we need to do a re-do the project's page to make it more user friendly and set up guidelines for how we want eurovision articles to be set up. Grk1011 (talk) 15:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * A bit of re-organisation of the project page is not a bad idea, it was originally written in 2003 and things have changed a lot since then. Camaron | Chris (talk) 16:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have started a draft. Grk1011 (talk) 17:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

'Melodifestivalen XXXX & Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest XXXX
I was recently browsing around, and noticed that there are separate pages for Melodifestivalen each year. (example Melodifestivalen 2008). Wouldn't it be better served if these pages were merged into Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest XXXX? I mean for example, Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008 looks like it has a lot of room for expansion to include the who results of Melodifestivalen 2008 instead of it having a separate page. I know we are trying to add consistency to all the yearly pages, and most Country in the Eurovision Song Contest XXXX pages include the full information of the selection process in them. I also see that the UK which also does a high profile selection process with Eurovision: Your Decision seems to be integrated in the yearly pages instead of having a separate page. Thoughts and comments? Greekboy (talk) 03:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I noticed that there is a sub-page for Melodifestivalen 2008 for the semi-finals, which adds much more information. So I myself now am stuck on the subject too. :p Greekboy (talk) 03:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... when I started those Melodifestivalen articles (for it was me), I don't think the Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest articles existed (or they weren't complete, I'm not 100% sure). But you're probably right - they could easily be merged without losing much information or diluting the merged article's focus: merging the semi-final stuff would be tricky, but do-able. Taking a glance at the Swedish Wikipedia, they have a single article: "Melodifestivalen XXXX". I suspect that for English-speaking readers it would make more sense to have the Melodifestivalen articles merged into the Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest ones, though.  Chwe ch  12:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I had just pushed this problem under the rug for a while, but now that we have set up guidelines (im working on it still) for each Country in the Eurovision Song Contest XXXX we can do something. So on the usual country page, say Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008, it says "national final". In articles where that final has a name, just substitute the name for "national final". We can simple merge the content from Melodifestivalen into these sections and possibly make it a redirect to that section of the page. Grk1011 (talk) 13:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Done the 2008 articles. Click here ńăŧħăń  -  ŧăłķ  18:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup
Currently, 1261 articles are assigned to this project, of which 134, or 10.6%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 2008-07-14.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place the following template on your project page:



If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 16:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I added the template and we will soon be up and running. Grk1011 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest
Your opinions are really needed about the 1992 Yugoslavian entry. See Talk:Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest. Grk1011 (talk) 21:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Template:Inesc, Injesc & Inedc
Last year I created templates Inesc, Injesc and Inedc templates to help with linking a country to its Eurovision page. However then, I did not know much about templates, so created three separate templates. I recently created template esc which could replace all three of the original templates, and wanted to see whether to replace them with esc. Template:esc works the same as the originals with a flag and country name, a description on how it works is available on its article. -- [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 12:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Makes sense to have one if it does the same as the other three. One question though, s=Song — Changes link from in the Eurovision Contest to in the Eurovision Song Contest. , does that mean that the default is "in the Eurovision Song Contest" and we don't need to use it for regular song contest articles? Grk1011 (talk) 12:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, no (Example links to United Kingdom in the Eurovision Contest). But if someone could make it so "...in the Eurovision Song Contest" is the default that would be great, as that is what I wanted it to do, but did not know how. --  [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 13:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, i guess i didn't read it right, I get it now. It would be nice if it were default since the song contest would have the most widespread use of the template. I'm going to try to see if i can get it to do that. I have no idea. Grk1011 (talk) 13:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have put helpme on my talk to see if anyone else knows how to doe it. -- [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 14:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well thanks to User:Xenocidic, "Song" is now the default!
 * > --  [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 17:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice, so are we just going to start using this or should we wait for more opinions? Grk1011 (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe more opinions, but a small tester is already in place on all the Eurovision Dance Contest pages. -- [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 18:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I just tested it on ESC 1992 for the Yugoslavian entry since it was a diff flag, it seems to work fine. Grk1011 (talk) 18:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe more opinions, but a small tester is already in place on all the Eurovision Dance Contest pages. -- [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 18:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I just tested it on ESC 1992 for the Yugoslavian entry since it was a diff flag, it seems to work fine. Grk1011 (talk) 18:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Former Yugoslav countries pages
On the pages for the former Yugoslav countries like Slovenia in the Eurovision Song Contest and Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest, it lists "Participation as part of Yugoslavia" and lists the years, participants, and songs when a person from that country represented Yugoslavia. That is wrong; ALL of them were represented each year, they all voted for the entrant regardless of which area of Yugoslavia he/she was from. Grk1011 (talk) 14:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I'm going to boldly take it out of the articles. The thought that just because the artist was from say Slovenia, that the other countries didn't participate isn't right. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree 100%. Slovenia made their debut in 1993 - not before. That's because Slovenia did not exist as an independent nation before 1993 - and only independent nations may enter the Eurovision Song Contest. EuroSong talk 19:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Eurovision maps
Last October I replaced most of the gif maps with png maps, however I think it would be better if the maps were svg, and available on Wikimedia Commons. The svg base maps is the participation map used on the Eurovision Song Contest 2007. Does anyone disagree? Or tell me how to improve them more? -- [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 12:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We seem to have three different maps:participation, ranking, and a sort of participation/semi-final results hybrid. I wouldn't mind the file format change, but I think the maps may need to be standardized in terms of content and colors. (ESC 2000 needs some help) Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 13:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Content and colours are what I thought may come up, the 2007 map works quite well, but too much information can lead to it being hard to understand, the years before the semi-finals were introduced would be the easiest ones to do. -- [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 13:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we should axe the chart showing the points of each country. I feel like its only purpose is to cause people to make assumptions about voting problems, I'll move this discussion to the talk page for that. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 13:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a big statement, which may get some talking, as the scoring is a big part of Eurovision, but the score box is available on eurovision.tv. -- [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 13:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not that chart lol, the map: see here. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops! Yes I'm not a fan of that, it's just an image of what I thought you were thinking about. -- [[ axg|undefinedSpecial:Contributions/AxGtalk  |undefined]] 14:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Infobox ESC entry
As some of you may have noticed, Infobox ESC entry has been reformatted. If you find any problems with the new design or notice any compatibility issues, contact me here or on my talk page. Thanks. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 12:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

New Project Page
So the new project page is up now. There are still some things that need to be fixed/added by User:Grk1011 and I, but does anyone have any further suggestions? Thoughts? Greekboy (talk) 21:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No comments? lol Greekboy (talk) 02:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I take it that everyone is satisfied then :) Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 02:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes I think that is a fair conclusion, I am very pleased with it. The main thing remaining that needs to be settled is the projects name. Camaron | Chris (talk) 08:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Eurovision
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Project Scope
It needs to be resolved if this project covers the Eurovision Dance Contest, which was only started in 2007 long after this project was started. Some pages for this contest are already tagged for this project but the main project page and the assessment template do not currently "officially" reconise it as such - only mentioning the song contest. I personally think it should be changed so it is as no other project comprehensibly covers this, and this project name suggests it does. A similar thing applies with the Junior Eurovision Song Contest. Camaron | Chris (talk) 16:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think that the Dance Contest should be part of this project. The editors here are into the song contest and dance is different topic. The junior contest technically should be, but there seems to be a lack in interest with making and editing its pages.


 * I think when I get home from work I'll try rewriting the entire project page on a user subpage as a draft and then people can critique it before it goes into use. There needs to be some consistency in the articles. Grk1011 (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we should just say we cover the Junior Eurovision Song Contest and leave it at that, it is not as important as the main ESC but it is still a notable topic. As for the Eurovision Dance Contest a long term solution would be to re-name this project 'WikiProject Eurovision Song Contest' and allow another project to be created for the dance contest called 'WikiProject Eurovision Dance Contest'. As I have said earlier, this project was created before the EDC was created, so the current name was fine back then, now it is problematic and ambiguous. I don't consider leaving EDC articles without any kind of WikiProject to co-ordinate them a long-term option, and allowing a EDC project to be set-up leaving this project with its current name will just cause confusion. So to summarise I think we are left with two long-term options:


 * Keep this project named 'WikiProject Eurovision' and allow it to cover Eurovision Song Contest, Junior Eurovision Song Contest, and Eurovision Dance Contest.
 * Re-name this project 'WikiProject Eurovision Song Contest' or similar to cover the Eurovision Song Contest and Junior Eurovision Song Contest, and allow the creation of a new project called WikiProject Eurovision Dance Contest to cover the Eurovision Dance Contest and also the older Eurovision Young Dancers.


 * Neither would be too difficult, though option 1 would be easier than option 2. I am currently neutral on which one is my preference. Either could be done as part of the re-organisation, and I will watch this with interest. Camaron | Chris (talk) 17:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I would prefer option 2 because both are song related and the templates could be modified to cater to both contests. Also, with the project'ss main page, it needs to be more "how to" so i would appreciate your help in drafting a new layout and guidelines. Grk1011 (talk) 17:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I will bear your view in mind. Since your the initiator of this reform I will let you start some drafts in your userspace, then I can come in and help out. I could also help carrying out option 2 if it goes ahead, and although I do not have large amounts of experience in editing EDC pages, I could start-up the new WikiProject. Camaron | Chris (talk) 17:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I'll start when i get home from work lol, which might be pretty late where you are since I'm in the US. I know that greekboy will help out too. I can write most of the stuff, but I'll need a lot of help with the layout (colors, boxes, etc) since i have no idea how to do it besides copying someone elses design haha. And this is the third time I've wrote this so go easy on editing your responses so i dont keep getting edit conflicts lol. Grk1011 (talk) 18:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, I will be glad to help. I think we need a common layout for the "_____ in the Eurovision Song Contest ΧΧΧΧ" pages. Greekboy (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As I only became a member of this project because I translated articles to Swedish Wikipedia, I will now leave thsi project (I mean, I do not really contribute to the English articles). However, thanks for the note about this proposals, but I do not have any thought about it. Thanks, Leo Johannes (talk) 08:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally I believe that it should be kept together as "WikiProject Eurovision". It's all Eurovision, albeit a song contest or a dance contest. I think that we should keep the Eurovision franchise together in one WikiProject, as it's all commonly related. Different people could focus on the different aspects, depending on their preference, but really I can't see how you would gain from separating it. P e  ter  will  09:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I would say seperate all three - they're all fairly unrelated. I have no interest in the Junior or Dance contests and obviously these would not have any major interest compared to Eurovision itself. If someone wants projects for them, they can start them.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the Eurovision Song Contest, the Eurovision Dance Contest, and the Junior Eurovision Song Contest should be treated separately. Just because they share the name "Eurovision", and are all produced by the EBU, that doesn't make them the same thing. For example, I am very interested in the Eurovision Song Contest - and I list myself as a member of the project. However, I couldn't give two hoots about the Junior edition, or the Dance Contest - which is a completely different thing. Whatever the project names are, if the Dance Contest has enough followers to want to have a project for it, then it should be separate from that of the Song Contest. There may, however, be room for the Junior Song Contest's inclusion as a sub-project of the main Eurovision Song Contest's project - if enough people think this is suitable. Whatever the case is, they should not all just be lumped together simply because they're EBU events which share the "Eurovision" name. EuroSong talk 13:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That was exactly my reasoning. I don't really care about the dance or junior contest, but i realize that the junior contest is related since its a singing contest too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grk1011 (talk • contribs)
 * I would accept separating the Dance Contest from the Song Contest, but I think splitting off the Junior Eurovision Song Contest as well is going to far. If the project is split into three then there has to be seperate organisation, assessment templates for all three, among other things that complicate matters a lot. How different the Junior Eurovision Song Contest actually is is very debatable, it is a direct spin off of the Eurovision Song Contest, is organised similarly, has similar rules, and the sources used for articles are often similar ie ESCToday covers both. The Eurovision Dance Contest is more different as it is based on dance, though it is in some ways similar also. I don't think a dedicated WikiProject for the JESC is viable as the scope in numbers of articles would not be that big. I think it also needs to be emphasised that not everyone that joins a WikIProject needs to like everything it covers - a compromise option however could be to set-up a task force for JESC within WikiProject Eurovision / Eurovision Song Contest. Camaron | Chris (talk) 17:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A task force sounds good. Include junior, and leave dance by itself. We dont actually need to set up a second project, a wikiproject is not a neccessity for a topic. Grk1011 (talk) 20:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would go with that. I would accept a sub-division, or "task force" for the JESC as part of the main project. But the Dance Contest should be completely separate, as it's not even a "spin-off" of the ESC. EuroSong talk 21:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The confusion over this projects coverage could be partly resolved if this project was re-named WikiProject Eurovison Song Contest, I think that at the very least we agree that should happen. Having a WikiProject for the Eurovision Dance Contest is not necessary, however it is a good idea for the long run for EDC articles. I have not expressed an interest in EDC articles myself, but I could quite easily start-up a EDC project based on this one to fill in a gap left by the re-organisation. Camaron | Chris (talk) 10:14, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that is the best idea, especially since I've been using it already when writing the template instructions ;) Grk1011 (talk) 10:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyone else think that maybe a work group would be a better idea for the Dance contest? Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I would strongly back Camaron / Chris's Option 2: Re-name this project 'WikiProject Eurovision Song Contest' or similar to cover the Eurovision Song Contest and Junior Eurovision Song Contest. "WikiProject Eurovision" is a poor title, given that the project is de facto all about the ESC (and to a lesser extent, the JESC - though I think that will grow: it's just that the JESC itself has a relatively low profile at present, at least in the English-speaking world), and the term "Eurovision", though colloquially used as shorthand for the ESC, really covers so much more than the contests it organizes: take a look at the EBU's website on Eurovision TV, Eurovision Operations etc.


 * Although I disagree with Eurosong's view that the ESC and the JESC are "completely different things", I think that the ESC and the EDC are and given that, as I suspect, most contributors to the current project might well not have a huge interest in writing and editing articles on the topic of the Eurovision Dance Contest, a separate group to bring together all those who are interested sounds much better to me. An admission here, which perhaps marks me out as exceptionally odd: although an ardent follower of the ESC for most of the last 50 years, I'd never even heard of the dance contest before joining this project... :) --Picapica (talk) 16:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

On a related subject, what is the position of this project on the Asiavision Song Contest? It's still several months away, but I think it should have a project or a task force to take care of the articles that will be created (currently there's only two). Will it be under the scope of this project? --Cattus talk 10:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been procrastinating about doing anything about that contest, but I think that it should probably be a task force since as far as I know, a lot of things will be similar and we can share templates and formatting. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool. I'd be happy to help with the task force. And by the way, thanks for the invitation!--Cattus talk 15:31, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Top ranking countries
I've started a new article: Eurovision Song Contest - Top ranking countries. I felt it was needed that there needed to be a table of the top placed countries other than just based on wins. After much thought I decided that the best format would be to base it on top 5 placings (obviously having a table featuring all top 26 places wouldn't be practical and a points system wouldn't be encyclopedic)- so I decided it would be the best place to cut it with it still being based on fact. Obviously no system is going to be 100% perfect, but I feel it gives a good overview to each country's performance in the contest. More of interest I found was the decade breakdown which gives a good view of the changing tastes over the years. I'm sure there are further improvements to be made and would welcome comments and contributions.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 21:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Format of song titles
I'd like to propose we bring the style of song naming and formatting up to the standards advocated in Wikiproject Songs#Style.

At the moment we have a mixture of styles, particularly in regard to capitalization: some foreign-language songs – e.g. Paradies, wo bist du?, Poupée de cire, poupée de son, Ein Hoch der Liebe – are shown using the correct standard conventions for their language in the article title but not consistently spelled elsewhere in the entry; many more – e.g. A Festa Da Vida, Nous Vivrons D'Amour, Une Chanson C'Est Une Lettre – are incorrectly capitalized throughout.

English-language song titles are, of course, capitalized according to certain rules: thus Making Your Mind Up is correct, although Born To Sing should be Born to Sing. The "English translation" of a foreign-language song title, however, is not (or is only very rarely) a title in its own right. It's just what it says it is: a translation into English of the meaning of the song title. So that Autant d'amoureux que d'étoiles (English translation: "As Many Lovers As Stars") should really be "Autant d'amoureux que d'étoiles" (English translation: "As many lovers as stars"); English-language title capitalization rules do not apply to what is not in itself a title. The song may, of course, have an English-language title (and it's usually the case these days that even for songs sung in languages other than English at the Contest, the performers have English-language lyrics "up their sleeves"), but it's very rare that the title of the English lyrics will be an exact translation of the original.

I am prepared to start making all the necessary consistency edits my proposal would involve, but don't want to start the task (yes, I realize it will be a big job!) if it risks running into firm opposition from other members of the project – which is why I am outlining it here first.

To summarize how it would affect song article intros, here are some examples:

"Amami se vuoi" (English translation: "Love Me If You Want To") would become "Amami se vuoi" (English translation: "Love me if you want to")

"Uh Jeg Ville Ønske Jeg Var Dig" (English translation: "Ooh, I'd Wish I Were You") would become "Uh, jeg ville ønske, jeg var dig" (English translation: "Ooh, I'd wish I were you")

Nur in der wiener Luft (English translation: "Only in the Air of Vienna") would become "Nur in der Wiener Luft" (English translation: "Only in the Vienna air")

A side benefit of going through all the song titles again is that it provides an opportunity for an accuracy check – there are two or three mistakes of punctuation and other details in the above randomly selected items above as they currently appear in the Wikipedia.

Finally, I do wonder whether the phrase "English translation" shouldn't submit to Ockham's Razor. Isn't it obvious that what follows is in English? So that, for example, "Due grosse lacrime bianche" ("Two big white tears") would suffice... — Picapica (talk) 12:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree. I've been trying to get the project to use the conventions which is why we use the quotes now for song titles. I have moved some pages in the past for capitalization, but I just don't know the rules of the other languages. The one thing is that I like when the English translations are capitalized as if they were titles themselves. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

As a former editor involved with international publications, I am familiar with the conventions for most European languages – and they can, in any case, be consulted here. Regarding your last point, I think the English translation v. English title distinction is nicely illustrated in: Après toi (French for "After you"; also recorded in English as "Come What May")... --Picapica (talk) 09:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess that is fine, I was just saying it looks weird when the English is not always capitalized like "After You". But move all of the pages that you can to their right capitalizations. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources issue in The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter
Currently The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter has the following paragraph: "Remember to source all information you add to pages or else it may be removed. ESCToday and Oikotimes are great places to find information". I strongly feel that it is unpropriate to advertise this sites in the project newsletter. Experience shows that information at Oikotimes is usually second hand and sometimes illegally copied from other sites. ESCToday has stopped coverage of JESC and EDC completely. Besides, there are many great other sources that may worth mentioning, however, my thoughts are that when possible Wikipedia articles should link first of all to the official articles on Eurovision.tv and national broadcaster websites, and not tabloid sites as Oikotimes and others similar. I think this line in newsletter should be removed. Zaqqq (talk) 15:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all its nice to know that someone is reading it. Second, there is a lot of unsourced information in our project and I fear that one day it will catch up to us. I was unaware that ESCToday stopped coverage on the JESC and EDC since I usually see article about them, but ignore them since I usually only edit ESC pages. Also, most members of out project have not even responded to the thread above about if the project should even include the Dance and Junior contests. Oikotimes is down for now, but I am aware that sometimes they jump the gun on news which ultimately may be false, but I'm just trying to get our members to source their information before it is deleted. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Project banner on artists
Hi. New here. I have a question: should artists get the project banner? I'm guessing yes, but I just wanna make sure. In case I step on someone's toes, I can tell'em: "The project made me do it." :) --Cattus talk 15:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, any article that has to do with the contest within reason. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thanks.--Cattus talk 16:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Colors in tables
Will someone please add a key to the results tables for the Country in the Eurovision Song Contest articles? I was reading Germany in the Eurovision Song Contest, and I had no clue what any of the colors meant. Reywas92 Talk 17:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Its supposed to be self explanatory, but I didn't know at first either. Its Gold, Silver, Bronze, and last is Red. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 17:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well those colors sure look like Yellow, Gray, and Orange. Take a look at the colors at, for example, Fencing at the 2008 Summer Olympics. I do see the place column now, but with orange and red I don't think it's self-explanatory.   Reywas92 Talk  17:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The voting history below that table has the right colors. Feel free to switch it or I suppose I could.Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 18:01, 5 October 2008 (UTC)