Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Indian cinema task force/Archive 1

I've been saying that I would do this for ages. Here it is, all rough and ready. We need a template, and some discussion of guidelines/conventions. Have at! Zora 22:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

To do list
If you are planning to create a 'to do' list, remember to add V.Shantaram. Tintin Talk 01:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

External Link
Should the actors page have external links to his/her latest movies(official or unofficial) or to review pages of the movies?--Raghu 14:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * My first thought is YES, it's useful to readers. My second thought is that it involves us in lots of housekeeping. If it's only the latest films that get this treatment, then we're going to have to keep fussing with the article to remove the old links and add new ones. So my second thought is NO. I could be swayed either way by a good argument. Or bribes. Preferably chocolate. Zora 06:44, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * There's the chocolate for you Zora :D --Raghu 07:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not that greedy. A barnstar would do ;) (or even two) :-D --Gurubrahma 06:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess if the movie is important enough, it should have an article. The individual movie and review links should go there. Tintin Talk 06:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point! I'm swayed. I enjoyed the chocolate, but I don't stay bribed. So we just make sure that the filmography is kept up to date. Zora 07:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Pictures, external links and template - random thoughts

 * Pictures - Among fair-use images, the earliest one stays unless it has not been tagged properly or the picture is not of a great quality. Other fairimages can be added if and only if they add substantial value to the article. Hypothetical example - A Time magazine cover can be added if it ranks Aishwarya Rai as #1 in Asia's Heroes of 2006 in that cover story etc. Even in such cases, it may be a good idea to retain the previous image.


 * External links - IMDB and official website should suffice. Some of the South Indian stars seem to have given up on their official websites. In such a scenario, links to fan sites may be encouraged but limited to a maximum of 5. If it crosses that number, the links that add nothing or very little to facts stated on the article must be chopped.


 * Template - I find that the link is red. Are we waiting for some inputs? --Gurubrahma 14:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup. I copied that from code for another project. I spoze we need a template. What should it be? A reel of film superimposed on the dharma wheel from the Indian flag? The Yash Raj symbol? Zora 18:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Have rendered a fresh fresh moniker (svg) for the template. Hope that helps. --ΜιĿːtalk 10:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Once the article size of an Indian actor/actress becomes near Featured Article length, more pictures (with proper licences) have to be allowed than one.  D a  Gizza  Chat  00:34, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps some guideline about column inches of prose versus column inches of picture? Prose to be at least twice as long as pictures added together? Any other way to do this? Zora 03:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * A minor point. From the experience in WP:Cricket, we should make sure at a very early stage that the categories that we have are sufficient and correct, so that three or four recent changes list like the actors and movies cover everything. Tintin Talk 19:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Why not just look at recent changes in Category:WikiProject Indian cinema? --Gurubrahma 20:24, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Should do - they will have to be added to the article pages as well. Currently only talk pages are included in this cat. Tintin Talk 21:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * that's 'coz they aren't supposed to be added to article pages. Though only talkpages are included in the cat, changes to the article would also get reflected, check it out...Gurubrahma 22:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * No, see this. I made a minor change to Roja but that is not reflected. Tintin Talk 22:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * My bad, you're right. btw, that link shows at least 4 ppl who deserve working man's barnstar for populating those pages with the template, good show guys. Zora, are u listening ;) --Gurubrahma 08:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Links to fan sites
I disagree with not allowing fan sites. Official sites are often not updated and some stars do not even have official websites thus one or two fan sites in external link IMO are helpful for fans looking for more than just a biography and filmography.--Faizan 18:40, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Why can't they just google on the name if they want more info? Letting a fansite link means giving it a Wikipedia stamp of approval. "Wikipedia thinks this site has useful info." There are many many fan sites out there and we can't vet them all. IMDB is an established source of info, and an official site is notable for having the artiste's imprimatur.


 * I'm a Browncoat and a slavering Nathan Fillion fan, but I found the FOUR Nathan Fillion sites that I've bookmarked through googling, following links, etc. I don't expect the Nathan Fillion article to point me to the right ones (and I just went there and deleted one link that said it was "official" but wasn't -- it was one of the worst of the Nathan Fillion sites).


 * If your sites are good, fans will find them. You can't expect Wikipedia to funnel fans your way. Zora 22:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Allowing fan sites will lead to an overflow of links in the External link section. We can't say this site can be allowed and not that, criterion of allowing a fan site becomes difficult.--Raghu 04:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * External links - IMDB and official website should suffice. Some of the South Indian stars seem to have given up on their official websites. In such a scenario, links to fan sites may be encouraged but limited to a maximum of 5. If it crosses that number, the links that add nothing or very little to facts stated on the article must be chopped. (copied from the section above). Abt googling, I can say the same for any article; why have an article on Wikipedia? Why not just google for the info?  --Gurubrahma 06:03, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we have any consensus on the fan sites yet. I've thought of a compromise -- that we allow informative fan sites that have NO ADVERTISING when there is no official site. I have the impression that a lot of so-called fan sites are actually advertising sites -- the actor's name and image are used to lure viewers to a page that provides minimal info and lots of blinking flashing ads. I'd be happier about allowing fan sites if we were really dealing with fans and not with sleazy entrepeneurs. Zora 23:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Film music directors, playback singers et al.
Are we keeping these within the scope of this project? IMO, we should cover these, considering the importance of music in Indian cinema. deeptrivia (talk) 02:02, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, absolutely. Our coverage here is very spotty. More would be nice. Zora 02:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Actor names in different scripts
Can we make a guideline for this? I saw the names of some actors like Shahrukh Khan, Salman Khan, Amir Khan ,etc. in Persian script. Some of these actors might not even know how to write their names in that script! Do we need this? We should have some degree of uniformity. Probably a guideline on this will remove such problem. deeptrivia (talk) 03:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It should be allowed absolutely as it is Urdu - most of the bollywood movies have titles in English, Hindi and Urdu. Even if some of these actors might not even know how to write their names in that script, it doesn't matter; some of the older day actors can't write even in the Roman (English) script, we still hv articles on them, right? ;) You may want to look at Talk:Bollywood and its archives to see relevant discussions. Zora was one of the discussants there, if I'm not mistaken, and shd be able to add to the discussion here. btw, nice idea to list the project on WP:INWNB. --Gurubrahma 10:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I mean, what's the criteria for choosing when to write the name in Urdu? I hope it's not religion. Whatever we have, it should be uniform. The purpose of adding a name in another script is to avoid ambiguity (like Indian names in Roman script can be ambiguous because they can be pronounced in different ways.) deeptrivia (talk) 13:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Spelling conventions
Kaho Naa... Pyaar Hai is how it is spelt on Wikipedia. How many people searching for the movie would get the exact spacing and the no. of ...'s right?  Redirects are an option (am just back after creating one each for this one and Koi Mil Gaya), but I'd welcome suggestions to standardise. I remember coming across instances where the IMDB title is different from that of the official website, different from the actual title etc. And do we include the taglines in the article title. e.g. Shakti - the Power etc.? --Gurubrahma 11:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The first fruit??
I can't be sure but I guess L. V. Prasad is the first newly created article as a result of the "to-do" list on the project. It got on to the Main Page as well through the DYK. This leaves 13 articles to be created yet under the first action point of "to-do" list; I plan to tackle one every week to keep the momentum going on a continuous basis. My next targets are B. N. Reddy and B. Nagi Reddy (both of them are different people, mind you!). If any one else is interested, please tackle the remaining 11 missing articles, if you can't wait for 3 months!! --Gurubrahma 05:55, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Dadasaheb Phalke awards - ImpuMozhi's comment removed and other comments
Before I got around to creating the above articles, ImpuMozhi created one liner stubs for all the missing articles. However, as that would mean that these would not get featured on DYK or that they may remain as single line stubs, I requested him to get them deleted under "author requests deletion" clause and he has complied. I request all of you to please create articles that can be more developed than stubs so that we can feature them on DYK before making them FAs. Also wondering if we should start a COTW or something similar? btw, the second fruit on DYK was Chemmeen by User:Pournami. I guess he (or she?) would be formally joining the project any time now. btw, check out User:Cookie90's edits - he seems to have single handedly created several articles on National Film awards by the Government of India; I've invited him to join the project. Next DYK stop: Durga Khote, most probably. --Gurubrahma 18:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Naming convention
Is there a naming convention for the actors/actresses? I thought about this after seeing L.V.Prasad. Comments? - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 19:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Most actresses are known by first name, or first name plus last. Use of initials is rare. I associate that more with males. Have never seen it for females.


 * Could be that this is some cultural matter that we don't usually look at closely. Necessary to mark females as females, by use of female first name, but males can be unmarked (default) with just initials? If I saw L.V. Prasad without any other info, I'd assume male. Is this REALLY the name that's used in movie credits, etc? We should go with the most commonly used form of the name, I guess. Zora 20:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is any pattern there. South Indian singers, P. Suseela, S. Janaki, P. Leela, and actresses like K.R. Vijaya are some names that I can quickly think of who are known with their initials. But most of the modern day actors and actresses don't use initials. Tintin Talk 20:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Problem is North Indian actors have pages like Aamir Khan, Sharukh Khan, whereas South Indian ones have initials. I am just trying to see if we can have one consistent naming for all Indian actors. Why can't we list the full name for everyone and have commonly called version in the intro? This is what they do in the Cricket project. Cricketer Srikanth is commonly called as "K. Srikanth", but the article is Krishnamachari Srikanth. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 21:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I must add this convention must be for anyone assosiated with the Indian cinema industry, not just the actors. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 21:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, you've convinced me, Ganesh. Zora 21:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Why can't we list the full name for everyone and have commonly called version in the intro? - IMHO, the title should have the better known name. It doesn't help to have articles with titles like Kattassery Joseph Yesudas or Krishnan nair Chitra Tintin Talk 21:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd vote for full name in the title (as that removes all ambiguity) but having a redirect for the most commonly used form of the name. Zora 22:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Just noticed this. Srikanth should have been Krishnamachari Srikanth (actor). The braces since the cricketer already took the article name. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 21:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Just moved Srikanth's page to Krishnamachari Srikanth (actor) and added a disambig. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 21:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * See if you can reclaim Krishnamachari Srikanth for the actor. The cricketer's surname has an extra K :-) Tintin Talk 21:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Is that a typo? Or is it his true name (the extra k)? I did not notice it. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 21:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The cricketer has two Ks. His name was originally Srikanth, but early in his career added the second K for numerological reasons. Tintin Talk 22:16, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

re-indenting Common name is what is followed. It doesn't make sense to have full name; It is Winston Churchill, not Winston Spencer Churchill. It is Mahatma Gandhi, not Mohandas.... It is Rajneesh, not Rajneesh Mohan Chandra jain etc. Also, as Tintin hinted above, we'd have lot of double redirects to fix. No one in his right mind would search for Konidela Siva Sankara Vara Prasad when he is looking for Chiranjeevi or Sivaji Rao Gaekwad when looking for Rajnikanth. Or "Marshall Bruce Mathers III" when looking for Eminem. While I understand that we have a project to thrash out precisely issues such as these, please remember that we should not be reinventing the wheel - we are a sub-project of project WP and WP policies would/should be paramount. Most accepted way is to have an article named by the common name with the full name or real name in the intro. --Gurubrahma 06:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I would prefer applying the common names guideline too, unless there's a precision or disambiguation issue, for the reasons stated above by Gurubrahma. Sometimes, actors want to be known by names that are not their real names, like Mahima Chaudhry, etc. Also, for example, I am not sure if the official name of Dilip Kumar is not Yusuf Khan. deeptrivia (talk) 06:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't mind using the common name. Is there a convention when writing it? How are initials written? Front of name or back of the name? Do we need to use dots? What is the spacing? Can we say this is the convention?  ( )First Name is the convention when writing with initials? I just want to see us come up a consistent naming standard. Yesterday I found an article (Srikanth) just with the first name? Is that okay? - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 12:06, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The convention is  ( )Name and not necessarily "First name"; Whatever is the common name and in which way he si credited on screen are important. IMDB could be used as a good source for this. We cannot have a single convention because India is such a diverse country. For tamilians, it is typically first name followed by father's name - but, some of them use father's name as initial. Let us consider two prime ministers of India, Atal Bihari Vajpayee and P. V. Narasimha Rao. If both were to be written in a consistent format, the options would be (1)A. B. Vajpayee and V. N. R. Pamulaparti or (2)P. V. Narasimha Rao and V. Atal Bihari. I am sure we would not have it that way. There was a debate some time back on Telugu names - do we split raos and reddys or is it a part of the name? as well as a common spelling for sastry (shastri, shastry), chowdary (choudhury, choudhary, chowdhary) etc. This started after some one unilaterally moved all articles to a common format he envisaged but they were reverted as being done without basis of providing importance to common names. The solution is to have articles on common names and have plausible redirects (I once had to merge Krishnadevaraya, Krishna Deva Raya and Krishna Deva Rayalu; then, different variations of mangalampalli - but never were these multiple articles created by experienced users as they know where to look for before creating an article; I tried some ten variations in searches and sifted through categories before finally starting Tanguturi Prakasam, for example) for them. I have been involved in close to 40 mergers, probably around one-third of them due to different spellings, but never ever did I face an edit war as to which name to retain - objective tests like google hits, government recognised name or IMDB listing exist to help us out. So, we should probly not get too excited or agitated by this names' issue and adopt IMDB listing name without much ado - there would be some exceptions and I'm sure that we will be mature enough to not fight; any ways, we have elderly influences like Zora to make us see sense. --Gurubrahma 13:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the explanation. You are right, we can stick to google hits, government recognised name or IMDB, for naming conventions. I will let this rest for now. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 14:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "any ways, we have elderly influences like Zora " ==> You are not doing your chances of getting a barnstar from Zora any good :P  Tintin Talk 16:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

No one would know that I'm elderly if I hadn't revealed it. It's strategic, you know -- old ladies aren't respected in the US, but we do get respect in India. So if I tell you that I'm 59 -- no, wait, 58 -- and have grey hair and a grown daughter, you guys all have to make nice-nice to me. I win! Zora 22:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Haha, you're funny :) ! deeptrivia (talk) 22:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Three cheers to Zora, the Durga Khote&Nirupa Roy-in-one of ourproject. --Gurubrahma 07:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Good news
Some good news -- Durga Khote finds a mention in today's 'Do you know' column. While I initiated the page, it was Gurubrahma who pushed to get it some visibility, including rewriting some portion of the text, presumably to meet some defined criterion of style. Congrats to the group on this cheering development! ImpuMozhi 05:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Congrats to you and Gurubrahma! Lots of hard work on everyone's part! Zora 06:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Akshay Kumar article
Hello, i just thought you should know that there ia a user under the name Tg0yal who feels it is alright to add loads and loads of pictures to the article. It is in a VERY BAD STATE, i changed it to the earlier version but he added more pictures again!! Just telling all of you so you could see for yourself.... Pa7 22:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC) This message was actually by the anon IP 81.102.225.97. --Gurubrahma 04:49, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Userbox
For those userbox enthusiasts, you can put this User WikiProject Indian cinema to show that you are a member of this project. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 08:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Rang De Basanti synopsis
Please see Talk:Rang De Basanti. The synopsis is good and doesn't violate any web-sites' reviews' copyright. However, it reveals the plot a bit too much and this may become a copyright issue. Should it be shortened? Rohitbd 09:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I took matters into my own hands and rewrote the synopsis, shortening it considerably AND removing most of the material re the ending. I think there's enough plot there to orient readers and let them make decisions about whether or not to see the movie, without revealing the crucial details.


 * The one thing I said was that there was violence. That's a big enough hint that people like me, who hate patriotic gore, can decide not to watch the movie. Zora 13:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

National awards
The entries in the lists under National Film Awards are offset by one when compared to sources like this and this. For eg, Gopi won the national award and state award in 1977 according to those sources, but in National Film Award for Best Actor it is 1978.

Does anyone know whether the wiki version is correct (it could be from some 'official' version which uses the year of presentation rather than the year for which the award is given)? Tintin (talk) 08:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ihave asked User:Cookie90 who started the articles to provide sources, but have not interacted with him lately, mostly due to his incivility. He was saying that he got the info from the Government of India website on the film awards, so must be a site with the extension .nic.in. btw, it is entirely possible that the awards are announced and given in 1978, but refer to the films released in 1977. At least, that is what happens with Arjuna awards and Rajiv Gandhi Khel Ratna award, AFAIK. --Gurubrahma 08:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have not interacted with User:Gurubrahma, mostly because I don't appreciate people who talk down to others. As for the sources of the National Film Awards, I did not explicitly say the source of information was from the Government of India's offical website on the film awards, but I said that the offical name of the awards on the site is National Film Awards. I have not edited that page in a while. The official site has little information on all the ceremonies. But I have collected information from various other sources. I might look for one credible source with a full list to put up. The years denote the year of presentation of each award. Cookie90 13:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Bhoot
The original version of the article created by an anon was a generic definition of "Bhoot" as seen here. It was put for wiktionary and is currently, on AFD. I have made it into a film-stub and it can be seen in the current version. I request interested film buffs to add the infobox, spoiler etc. TIA, --Gurubrahma 06:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Star Screen Awards & IIFA Awards
Hi, I've done the page for the Star Screen Awards, im going to start the IIFA Awards soon, i'll also try to do the Filmfare Awards which have not been represented yet... Pa7 17:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Gossip column material
A number of editors, usually anons, have been trying to add gossip column material to the movie and actor articles. Who's dating whom, spats, etc. I've been deleting it as soon as I see it. A lot of it is unverifiable gossip. One editor in particular, Shez15, who also edits from an anonIP (24 something), is obsessed with Rani Mukerji and adds Rani material to every article he can. He doesn't talk to us, he doesn't seem to learn ... is there anything we CAN do, aside from just reverting him continually? Zora 14:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, WP:BP. I hope he/she is suffciently warned by atleast another editor. If there is support from community, especially the participants of this project, I'll block him the next time and list him on banned users list. btw, I expected all the participants to vote keep on the Afd debate of Bhoot, if not improve it. ;) --Gurubrahma 18:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Aargh, a couple of anons were adding a note to the Kajol article saying that she had had a miscarriage. Ugly, rude, unverifiable, ick, ick, ick. Zora 09:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, IIRC, it was reported in rediff.com and some publications as well - this was before the birth of their kid Nysa, so this is dated info, though verifiable, but probly UE (unencyclopedic). As usual, some magazines went to the town saying that their relationship was under strain and all that. --Gurubrahma 19:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Filmfare page
The Filmfare page is done. Im going to try and do the best male playback as soon as possible. Other than that, the other awards (technical awards) are also done. Please have a look, for any mistakes. Thank you Pa7 00:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Kaizad Gustad
Have created a stub on the hit-and-miss film director. Please feel free to expand. Does anyone know the outcome of his trial? --Peripatetic 10:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Latest shenanigans
There were some tense times this last week when one user was uploading faked porn pictures onto various Bollywood actress pages. He (or someone) had photoshopped the actresses' heads onto hardcore porn shots. I was reverted as fast as possible and yelling for administrator attention. If I were one of those actresses, I would be hurt by that sort of ugliness.

We've had the usual round of vandalism, nonsense, dirty words, and fans trying to write themselves into their hero's or heroine's lives.

Finally, we have Shez15, who continues to be obsessed with Rani Mukerji. After I cautioned him about filling her article full of fancruft, I got this reply on my talk page:


 * I'm not making a fan site here. I'm just improving wikipedia and making it more fun and full of information that is useful and correct. It's only because you guys don't know shit about anything on bollywood despite your hard work in research. I've grown up knowing all these rules and things. You better watch out for me. I'm your boss in this business. I'm more knowledgable than your entire team who are dedicating their time to Bollywood related articles.

Well, it's nice to know that we have a boss. Zora 07:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Are songs notable enough?
Are songs featured in Bollywood films notable enough to have its own article? Many Western/American songs have their own page. To remove the Euro-centric domination on the English wiki, I suggest we do so.  D a Gizza Chat  &#169; 08:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Awaara Hoon. Meera naam Chin Chin Chu. Chura Liya. Dum Maro Dum. Chaiya Chaiya. Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani. My favorite, strange, but ... I love Pardesi, from Raja Hindustani. Maybe it's just the picturisation, which I think is brilliant. Zora 08:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Euro-centric? probably more America-centric. Also, the lyrics are in English, so they fit here more effortlessly. If we were to have articles on hindi songs, the songs themselves must be notable enough such as winning an important award (lyrics/music) or catching public imagination. e.g. Awara hoon and mera jootha japani were successful in Russia as well with people singing them on Nehru's visit there, much to his chagrin at the popularity of Raj Kapoor. Mera naam chin chin chu is typically credited with bringing the cabaret songs/ club songs as a main ingredient of mainstream films and rejuvenating the career of its singer. Dum Maro Dum is known for heralding the flower power of late 60's early 70's hippies from India. I do not know of historical significance or social impact of songs such as chura liya hai, chaiya chaiya or pardesi. Some songs have a bigger revival through remixes etc. but such a fact does not a song article make unless it is well referenced with credible sources. --Gurubrahma 09:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, you like SOME of my suggestions :) I won't argue for chaiya chaiya or pardesi being influential; I just had the impression that they were popular. However, I think I read on one website that Chura Liya was "the anthem of a generation". Yes? No? Zora 09:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Help on Rani
Shez15, using an anonIP, is repeatedly changing the reference to Rani Mukerji on the disambiguation page for Rani. He wants it to read #1 Bollywood actress; I revert to Bollywood actress and he reverts back.

I think this is outrageous, to be using a disambiguation page as a forum for promoting Rani. I think I've run out of reverts, however, and would appreciate some backup. Zora 02:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * reverted. btw, Zora, there is no fixed no. of reverts as such for vandalism - and I feel the anon's edits amount to vandalism due to repeated violation of NPOV and not using the talkpage to resolve differences - such edits could be reverted any no. of times, imo. If it is not vandalism, it is better to stick to WP:1RR. Also, WP:3RR doesn't mean that we have the right to go for 3 reverts in 24 hours. It is usually better to not make comments such as so-and-so is using anon IP, but in this case, the similarity in edits is way too striking. And probably Rani winning best actress for Black (Filmfare) may have enthused the anon ;). I reckon the IP is close to being blocked. As far as Chura liya goes, yes, it was called an anthem for a new generation but it would be difficult to establish its verifiability - most sources would be film blogs. --Gurubrahma 08:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Awards, Shez15
As we all know, there are many many Indian film awards. At first it was just the Filmfare and the National, but the awards ceremonies have proliferated.

Some of the contributors to the film articles have been spending enormous amounts of time entering all the awards, tallying them up, and then measuring actors and actresses against each other in terms of award totals.

This is taking over the articles! I'm reminded of people obsessing over cricket scores and ranking cricket players. IMHO, most of these "awards" are commercial affairs, stage shows that charge admission. Treating them as if they were valuable or important is just plain wrong.

I particularly dislike the tendency, most notably displayed by Shez15, to focus on award totals and use them to PROVE that a particular actor or actress (say, Rani Mukerji) is the best ever. Shez is prolific, obsessive, and a blight on the film articles.

Is there some way of taking this OUT Of the individual articles and setting up an award scorebox article? If people want to play with this stuff in a segregated area, that's fine; it just seems silly for it to take up half of an actor article. Zora 22:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Bollywood article needs some attention
Several anons have added mini-essays about the current state of Bollywood -- essays which are primarily unreferenced opinion. I suppose I could just delete them but ... I think I've brooded over that article a little too much, and I'm not the right person to opine about the current state of Bollywood, given that the most recent film I've seen is Mangal Pandey. The article needs to be freshened up, and not by me. Attention by other editors is requested. Zora 21:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I second that. Help, I need somebody, Help, not just anybody, Help, you know I need someone, help.When I was younger, so much younger than today, I never needed anybody's help in any way. but I need help now before some one adds that Bollywood plagiarised the tune of this song from Beatles, help, any body, help. It is that bad guys. So, please add it to your watchlists but excise only recent additions, if you have to. --Gurubrahma 16:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Awards
Hey, Zora posted a message about the awards on the 26 Feb. I wanted to finish the Filmfare article, so I kinda did the rest of it!!! I went a bit award crazy and started on the IIFA Awards, Star Screen Awards and Stardust Awards. Shez started on the Zee Cine Awards and edited the other pages promoting his work. If you see the Sushmita Sen page and his favourite Rani Mukerji, you'll know what I mean. I thought it would be good to have more Bollywood related articles. Pa7 19:13 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Shakila on Afd
I am no great fan of her, but her soft-porn movies brought in a shift in the Malayalam film industry. The deletion debate is happening here, more because of the mis-spelling (popular spelling is Shakeela), than anything else. --Gurubrahma 13:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Synopses
I've had to rewrite a number of synopses lately. They were long, boring, meandering accounts of every single detail of the plot. Like being trapped in a corner at a party while the biggest bore in the room spends half an hour telling you about the movie he just saw.

I don't know how to prevent this. It's particularly galling when we have a good, short, punchy synopsis and an anon decides to expand it. I know people want to be helpful, and it's natural to say, "I saw that movie, I know a lot more about it than is contained in the synopsis". Still, it's irritating.

Just one of the inconveniences of being open to anyone, I suppose. Zora 04:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not add an invisible comment (which is only visible in the edit mode) immediately after the spoiler heading? --Gurubrahma 07:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a GOOD idea. Text for the comment ... hmmm. Something like --
 * Synopses should be short, brief, and readable. Two to five short paragraphs please! Please do not list every character and everything that happens in the movie. Synopses for recent movies will often describe only the first half of the movie and avoid saying anything about the ending. This helps readers decide whether or not they want to see the movie, but does not spoil the ending for them. Please do not describe the ending of recent movies.
 * Would that do? Zora 08:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Should ideally be shorter just as we want the synopses to be :) How about "The plot summary should be brief and to the point - please do not give away the ending or the twists in the story line, which could ruin the fun of people who have not seen the movie yet" ? Should be even shorter - though it reminds me of WP:BEANS OMG --Gurubrahma 10:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Much better! I bow in admiration to your masterful prose. Now, we need a template to put on the main page, and then someone to painstakingly apply it to hundreds of film articles :) Zora 11:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * plotnote created and the project page updated with the details. Template applied successfully to Rang De Basanti. --Gurubrahma 03:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Now let's see if it stops anyone with a burning desire to reveal all. Zora 05:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Awards
Would it be worthwhile to make pages for each year of the filmfare awards and national awards, with links to previous year and next year. It would be easy to create as we have a list of the awards. Plus over time other things like nominations etc could also be added to these pages. Let me know if people think it is a good idea and i can work on it. kaal 00:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be a good idea to create them with the caveat that we are clear as to what the year represents - the year they were awarded, or the year they were presented. We don't seem to have a consensus on that - a perusal of the talkpage suggests that :( --Gurubrahma 13:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the year they were awarded would be better option. This convention is followed for the oscars. kaal 06:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Set up Bollywood and plagiarism
I got tired of pruning plagiarism accusations out of the main Bollywood article and just now set up a breakout article, where people can post allegations to their hearts' content.

This is an experiment. It may not work. People are going to have to give references to MOVIE REVIEWS that claim plagiarism, and not just give their own opinions. If it turns into a chat room, full of nothing but original research, we may have to give up the idea and get it deleted.

Comments invited. If you want to change the article completely, that's fine too. I don't have a strong attachment to it. I just wanted a "dustbin". Zora 07:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If it works, the article is likely to get many tens of films being accused of plagiarism in the one article (as there are many Hindi films with similarities to English films). If it just becomes an unsourced POV mess, it will be really hard to control, as articles like these are bound to get people's opinions winded up. I think it's necessary to think of a different format and layout for the article, it has to be very much a discussion of plagiarism and how it happens with references to various films here and there. Otherwise, just increase the section in the Bollywood article by another two paragraphs and police edits heavily.  Noble eagle   <font size="0.5"> (Talk)   23:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * How about moving all the arguments pro and con to the articles for those particular movies, and just having a list of movies for which plagiarism has been alleged? Not allowing any movies to be listed unless there IS an outside source, such as a movie review? Zora 00:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me :)  Noble eagle   <font size="0.5"> (Talk)   03:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

2006 Commonwealth Games closing ceremony
There were a few Bollywood people doing a showcase for India. Aishwarya Rai was one of them. I think the other was Saif Ali Khan and a few other singers who I didn't recognize, and the MC was rather unclear. Can anybody confirm??Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 00:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This should help. --Gurubrahma 09:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Clarification
The Amitabh page article says he is a FTII graduate- the exact line mentions him with some FTII alumni and says they and he were classmates. Jaya was an FTII grad, does anyone have a source for list of FTII alumni ? Apart from this article no one or no other site makes the claim that Amitabh is an FTII graduate

Haphar 13:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, lessee, there's this, and , and this.
 * We've got two articles that say he met Jaya at FTII (implying that he was a student there) and then one article that lists famous alumni -- of whom Jaya is one, and AB isn't. Could it be that he just took a few courses there and didn't graduate? Or that he was at FTII doing something else?


 * That's a good catch, Haphar. I don't think he could be an FTII graduate, or they would be boasting about it. Does anyone else know anything about this?


 * There, that's the importance of verifiability :/ Zora 14:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Farida Jalal
Hello, guys, I just finished the article on Farida Jalal (she's been around for such a long time and no article on her here at Wiki -- shame on us). Anyway, I kept googling a bit and didn't find anything on her personal life (like where she was educated or the name of her parents and if they were well-known). It took my ages to find out that she has a son and was married. I didn't even find out which year she was born, so if you know anything on her or stumble over an interview, let me know. PS. And as you have noticed, there are two pcitures of her in her article - for someone who is an evergreen and to demonstrate her appearance during the years, I thought it might by appropriate. Oppinions on that? --Plumcouch 19:46, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice article! Good work! Two pictures is OK by me -- one to show her as the Bollywood mom, one of her as an ingenue. Makes sense. Zora 22:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Need help
Need help on the following, some more biography , more dates

Geeta Bali,

Yogeeta Bali,

Premnath,

Nasir Hussain,

Sanjay Khan,

Bina Rai

Shobhana Samarth

IS Johar

Om Prakash

Motilal

Also does anyone have any links to actor Rajendranath ?

Haphar 10:20, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Leena Chandavarkar

Haphar 17:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Dev Benegal
I just discovered the article on Dev Benegal, which reads as if the guy himself wrote it. I can't decide if it should just be pruned severely, or put up for deletion. What do you all think? Zora 07:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The biography is taken from IMDb - I'm for pruning it; he seems like some minor Indian director or something.--Plumcouch 11:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Shez's new article
Shez15 and his anonIP just embarked on a new round of edits. He set up an article called Filmfare's List of Top Ten Actresses, for the film magazine list, and then systemically added the Filmfare rankings to a bunch of actress pages. I deleted all the rankings, as non-encyclopedic.

I'm thinking of putting the article up for AfD. Filmfare is just a film magazine and its rankings are mere ephemera. Meaningless, not encyclopedic. But I thought I should check here in case there were any other views. Zora 07:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm with Zora on this one -- Filmfare rankings mirror a certain amount of commercial success, but that's about it. If we start something like that, we can also make boxes for Vogue's most beautiful people listings and for possibly any other listing out there. Filmfare's List of Top Actresses may be interesting for generations to come, but that's about it. --Plumcouch 11:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Bunty aur Babli
I haven't seen the movie, so I'm not sure I want to rewrite the synopsis. But the existing synopsis is an embarrassment to WP. Anyone have the energy to fix it? Zora 07:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

List of rôles in articles on actors
I recently tidied the list of film rôles at Lara Dutta, only to have my edits reverted on the basis that they went against this project. The edit in question was this; it involved mainly the removal of character names, the un-linking of years, and the removal of unnecessary capitals. I replied at the Talk page of the editor concerned explaining my view, and thought that I'd bring the issue here too. My remarks were:


 * 1) The "role information" looks like the result of a direct cut and paste from IMDb (which raises copy-right issues), including their (non-Wikipedia style) of a row of dots, and tells the reader very little unless she knows the film (so the information would be best put in articles on the individual films).
 * 2) There's nothing that I can see at WikiProject Indian cinema that specifies or even mentions this style; it seems rather to be the result of editors rather lazily doing the cut-and-paste from IMDb.
 * 3) In any case, is it really a good idea to have a separate style for Indian actors? Shouldn't we just have a style for actors?
 * 4) You also replaced the incorrect capitalisation, and the serious over-linking of years. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 09:14, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, when I cut and paste from IMDB, I always edit -- cover my tracks well :) I'm OK with having the character names there, and OK with having them off. I'll go with the majority, whatever it is. Zora 09:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * How does this fit with your rather bad-tempered message on my Talk page? --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 11:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, it means I changed my mind after I saw the DDLJ article without the roles attached to the actors. I realized that I really did care. I sometimes do consult WP or IMDB to find out who played what, and I'd be unhappy if that info were missing. As for the crankiness -- chalk it up to lack of sleep and too much caffeine. Sorry. Zora 11:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, don't worry about it. I know what it is to be irritable from lack of sleep. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 17:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Basically, I don't care if we have the names or the roles in there or not. If the majority thinks they are obselete, be it. (But when I think to go through all the articles and remove the role information ... *argh* ;)) I just thought since Bollywood actors make so many more films than Hollywood actors, it might be useful for general research what role they played. (Especially with the very common phenomenon of Special Appearances that Hollywood doesn't use so often as Bollywood (Abishekh Bachchan anyone?). Also, IMDb doesn't list all Bollywood movies, Alag being the most recent example, and does not always feature a complete list with role information (or even an un-complete list with all the actors in a movie). And since there are lots and lots of movies that haven't an article yet, maybe it's useful to have the character names at least in the actor's article. And I also always "cover my tracks" and edit what I took from IMDb (or even correct it). Opinions from the other project participants? --Plumcouch 10:22, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Lagaan
Am I right in thinking that in one of the cricket scenes in Lagaan, that a British officer gets bowled? and the ball takes off stumpa dn leg stump out of the ground, but the middle stump still stands? Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 05:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Also I think that the Yashpal Sharma who plays Lakha the traitor, is not the person linked in the biography - a Test cricketer born in 1954?Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 05:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Very doubtful. I saw Lagaan only once (and was half asleep most of the time) but from what I remember he did not look anything like the cricketer. Tintin (talk) 08:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * True, he did not look like a cricketer. -- S iva1979 <sup style="background:yellow;">Talk to me  15:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Ajith
Somebody needs to look at this. The POV is extremely ridiculous. I have tried to water down the tone, but don't know enough about the content - some of it sounds ludicrous.<span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">ßlηguγΣη | Have your say!!! 07:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Role information of Bollywood actores (or actors in general)
Since Mel removed the role information from Lara Dutta's article again, I'm not sure what the general consensus is - should we remove it from all the other articles too? (Especially, since Bollywood recently discovered the concepts of remakes? (Sholay anyone?)) I think it helps to provide a better overview to know what role an actor played in which film. And, BTW, some Hollywood actors have the role information, some don't ... so I guess it doesn't really matter. (Jennifer Lopez even has salary information in her article - someone really went through some effort.) Opinions on that? --Plumcouch 11:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Ajith article
I've just had a look at the article on Ajith. I thought we were having problems with the Rani Mukerji article but Ajith's page is a huge mess. I also had a look on the discussion page and there seems to be a war between two certain users. We really need to sort out that article. I've deleated a few pictures which had no copyright status, there's many more that need deleating. I can't sort out that article because i don't watch his films. It's horrible!! Pa7 15:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Need to enforce the use of Ajith as his name on the infobox, rather than Ultimate Star Ajith which is a marketing term which some of the pro-Ajith people are insisting on.<span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">ßlηguγΣη | Have your say!!! 07:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The article is a huge mess! And the vandalism and reverts make it worse - have a look at the edit history. I honestly don't know what can be done about this. --Madhu 17:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed some of the most obvious POV terms, such as the repeated use of "!", "mega-blockbuster", "mega-super star", and a magazine reference which labelled in "Numero Uno" which was misleadingly labelled as fact rather than one group's opinion. However, User:Anwar sadaat keeps reverting, citing "cleanup". I need help because I don't want to be 3RR-ed, and also need specialists to deal with the borderling judgement calls which hmay or may not be POV. Regards, <span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">ßlηguγΣη | Have your say!!! - review me 02:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Have posted on his talk page and have reverted some edits, his next revert is his 3rd I think.  Noble eagle   <font size="0.5"> (Talk)   02:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I have pruned the article ruthlessly. I don't think he's going to like it, but if he stopped to think about it, a clean, orderly, inviting article is more likely to get attention for Ajith than a cluttered monument to fan monomania. A better picture would help too. The one that's up there now might appeal to racing fans, but it doesn't do anything for female me. What about all the links to songs? That's piracy, right? We should remove the links? I have mixed feelings. I listen to Internet radio, after all, and I don't think the artistes are getting anything for that. Zora 07:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Might want to explain yourself on his talk page or else he might revert vandalism, or put it back in on grounds of "clean up". Anyway, he seems to think the Rajinikanth article is worse, but I disagree. Also someone has been doing a poilitical analysis of Rajinikanth.<span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">ßlηguγΣη | Have your say!!! - review me 07:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The Rajnikanth article is not worse ... now :) I wielded the slashing sword of copyediting on that too. Including cutting the political stuff down to a few bland sentences. Check them both out. I'm doing this after being up all night, and that is when I make dumb mistakes. Zora 15:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Anwar violated 3RR (although his edit summary's didn't carry the indicative rv), no admin has taken any action though...But I think it's better that he see sense and policy without an admin having to interfere.  Noble eagle   <font size="0.5"> (Talk)   07:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Bollywood Article
I've had Bollywood on my watchlist for a while but haven't seen any genuine progress being made into it. Nor any ongoing organized effort or place to see what the article now needs. Perhaps I just missed it. Anyway the point is that an article with as much potential as this should be reaching for nothing less than Featured Article promotion and if it does not match the criteria at the moment we should be working to get it to reach the criteria. So could someone just list what the article needs to become a featured article and then work can begin. If it needs a lot of work I may nominate it as Indian Collaboration of the Week. Thanks.  Noble eagle   <font size="0.5"> (Talk)   06:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

List of popular Bollywood films
That list is there to be useful to Bollywood newbies -- they can print it out and take it to the video store. But it's been plagued with the usual list problems: No agreed-upon criteria for picking films. If we don't have criteria, it ends up as a hodgepodge of "Whoever happened to edit this page and his/her personal faves". I pruned it down to films that were top-grossers per IBOS, but then people started adding their favorite films again. So I took a big gamble and for a few years at least, split the films into two groups: five top-grossing films per IBOS, and top critically-acclaimed films. I stashed the interloper films in the critically-acclaimed list, for now, but I'm working on a better list. I want to do this for the whole list, but it's going to be a big effort.

I took the lists from Upperstall, Bollywhat, Greencine, and zulm.net's top 100, copied, and merged them. I've still got to look up years on some of the films, then I can sort them by year, and add them. So far I've got 133 films on the list -- some of them were top-grossers, so they'll be off that list and in the hit film section.

I've suggested that if someone wants to add a film that isn't in the list I'm making, he/she find an online critics list that does include the film, and then we add a link at the bottom. We can also discuss whether or not all the films on the list should be merged into the main group.

For current films, perhaps we should add a link to Rediff? Any thoughts on that? Any other sites that are good for reviews and box office results?

Comments invited. Let's have a methodology here and then maybe we can apply it to all the regional cinemas. I need to know what Tamil films I should be watching, frex. I'm ignorant on any non-Bollywood films and could use some guidance.

If anyone here wants my preliminary list, email me. I'm making the list in an OpenOffice spreadsheet, and OO is free. Zora 22:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Complete or partial filmography?
Do the Filmography sections need to have a huge list of movies that someone has acted in/directed etc? I think it makes sense to have a list of notable films only. --Madhu 12:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is that people don't always agree on which are the notable films and which aren't. Plus, any list on WP seems to invite contributions from readers who are otherwise scared of getting involved in WP. If we write, "His notable films are X, Y, and Z", someone just has to add, "and A". Which inspires the next person to add a film.

But I just had an idea. What about bolding the names of the best-known films? J. Random Newbie doesn't know how to bold. It will be up to the regular editors to haggle over which films should be bolded :) Zora 19:36, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It sounds like good idea, I'm just not sure whether it fits with WP:MoS. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Chat  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 23:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Saeed Jaffrey
I am new at Wikipedia and currently working on Saeed Jaffrey. Can someone please help me get a picture of this Actor, and tell me how to get one without violating the copyright issues?

Thank you. Neon 08:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This has been a continuing problem. One way out is to scan a magazine cover. Magazine covers are fair game. Publicists also put out pictures that they hope will be used, and some people claim to have gotten these pictures and scanned them, but I don't know quite how that would work. Anyone else? I'm kinda clueless here. Zora 08:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the only other two ways are taking an actual photo of him or an old picture, for India prior to 1946. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Chat  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 23:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have taken a picture from a site, under the promo licence. Please check the image and see if I have added the correct licence. Neon 17:22, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Amrish Puri
Hi, I've added more details about him as he is mostly known in the Bollywood industry. (BTW, the IP address is mine, I forgot to log in). Anywayz, there are few things we need such as references. Please check the page for mistakes and spellings. Thanx. Pa7 21:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Lakshya
Could we create a new article Lakshya_(film) by taking the content from Lakshya, currently the film article and the disambiguation links are both in the same place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SwiftRakesh (talk • contribs)
 * Done. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 18:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Aradhana
The page talks about 4 different films, 3 Telugu and one Hindi. I suggest a split and a disambiguation page. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Chat  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 08:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

List of all Hindi movies ever made
Hi. I am not a member of this Wikiproject. I used to maintain a list of all Bollywood films ever made, along with the year of their release (to practice Dumb Charades). I had obtained all the data from imdb. The list has thousands of movie titles and was updated till late 2003. So if anyone's interested, feel free to contact me. - Aksi_great (talk) 16:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we start something like this with that data ? Tintin (talk) 07:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

india film stubs
Hey. I really want to reduce the number of film stubs we have. Some people have put an introduction but have left them like that and then we have to add the stub. I have added details to pages and also got rid of stubs when there not needed anymore. Im hoping since we are all a team here we can add the proper info on a certain films and reduce the number of stubs. Basically making this more simple, Help me please.... Pa7 19:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

HELP at Amitabh Bachchan
A new editor has started working on the Amitabh article and what he's adding reads like copyvio to me (though I can't find the source) and it's just full of original research, personal judgements, etc. The page is now so long and prolix that I find it almost unreadable. I left a note begging him to stop, but I didn't want to start editing the article back down. I'm tired and cranky and I would probably be too rough. The rest of you may want to visit the article and take a preliminary whack at it. He may have added some interesting stuff, if ANY of it can be verified, but all the pontification needs to go. Zora 08:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I rewrote it, again. There are several places where references or citations are needed. They're things I probably read at Rediff, but just haven't had time to look up. I do recall something, somewhere, about what a professional Amitabh was. Also, links to critical articles, about his lack of selectivity. I know I've read it, I just can't remember where. Zora 07:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Kareena Kapoor
A new editor has done something to the article, you have to see it! He/she has given a year by year account of Kareena's career and unsourced facts. It tried to do it but could not. Please someone have a look and edit it. Pa7 16:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I reverted to an earlier version. That was certainly fancruft. Zora 07:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

List of Bollywood film clans
Hey, i've changed the style of the article and put it into different sections. The original page looked to cramped, so please have a look everyone. Thanx Pa7 18:09, 1st May 2006 (UTC)


 * WOW! Good work, Pa7. The list is much more readable and usable now. I'm not ordinarily a fan of lists, but that one is a big help to anyone trying to figure out who's who in Bollywood. Zora 18:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is indeed great work. Keep it up! -- S iva1979 <sup style="background:yellow;">Talk to me  19:14, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Heads-up on COTW
Hi, Sholay is a candidate on WP:INCOTW. I am hoping that it would get more ppl to join our project, so check out the response so far. TIA, --Gurubrahma 17:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Ek Duuje Ke Liye
Can you somebody have a look at Ek Duuje Ke Liye and remove the stub if not required any more.. Rak3sh 14:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Tamil actor articles
I edited Ajith down to neutrality and then, after reading comments on the talk pages about "If they can do at the Rajnikanth article, we can do it here," I pruned Vijay and Rajnikanth too. As everyone predicted, Anwar saadat has reverted already. He has left messages on my talk page accusing me of knowing nothing about Kollywood (which is all too true) and of being a vandal and a troll. I don't think the latter two claims are true :) He insists that he has reported me for vandalism.

Anwar seems to be defending the Ajith and Vijay articles, not the Rajnikanth article. Is that rivalry? Old star versus young upstarts? Does Anwar stand for the upstarts?

I could report Anwar for 3RR violation (at least on Ajith) but I'm not sure that it would help the situation. What would help is if someone here who is from the South and does know Tamil cinema could talk to Anwar and conince him to let go of the articles. Is there anyone here willing to make a try?

This seems to me to be fan obsession on a par with Shez's for Rani. Zora 17:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know much about Kollywood either, but I know a bit about NPOV and other Wikipedia policies. If he reports you for vandalism, all he'll get is a grin and a pat on the back. He reverted 5 times on 4 May 2006 so he's violated 3RR  Noble eagle   <font size="0.5"> (Talk)   07:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I could use some support, guys. Anwar has restored all the articles I pruned to their original hagiographic glory and is accusing me of vandalism and trolling. He has reported me to an admin for "vandalism". Shez, in the meantime, is leaving hostile messages on my talk page, and reverting my edits to the Rani Mukerji page with the notice, "Zora, you are banned from this page". He is also editing other actress pages, removing material that he regards as "fancruft." I guess he's learned a new word :) However, fancruft seems to apply to any actress in competition with Rani, but not Rani.


 * I'm starting to get the feeling that the sort of self-identification that Western males make with sports teams (if they win, I win!) is replaced in India by self-identification with actors or actresses (if he's the top, then I'm the top!). Which leads to fan rampages when teams lose or actors die. Sigh. Zora 22:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Mithun Chakraborty
The stated article really needs a clean up. I think the original version was taken from another article. Im trying to find if it was a copy violation. The article has no sources and it's more like a journalist article. I've added sections but can someone please have a look. Also the filmography really needs doing. Pa7 11:29, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Naushad has passed on
Naushad has died. Someone has already put the last information in the article, but it would be nice to make the article better, as our last tribute to a great composer. People may be looking here for help on obituaries? Zora 13:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

We should also try and improve the Mughal-e-Azam, which was one his best creations. I have added a new InfoBox, any help appreciated. Rak3sh 14:45, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I rewrote the Naushad article, but I'm pressed for time (as always) and there's more work that could be done on it. I added to the list of the films for which he's famous; list should be reviewed by other people (I've only seen some of those films) and the films need dates, need to be arranged in chronological order. We need an infobox, a picture if possible, and it would be nice to have a list of Naushad CDs, so that anyone who reads about him and wants to listen to his music knows what to google on. Also, I may have skipped something important about Naushad. I haven't read all the Rediff commentary after his death, and there may be material there we should add.


 * I removed all the controversy about how much he was responsible for making Lata famous. I think that's a tempest in a teapot. Others may disagree with me.


 * He was the first "filmi" composer I noticed, in my wide-eyed firang discovery of Bollywood, and I have always liked his music, even when other people were telling me that it was old-fashioned and boring. I want to do my bit for Naushad. Zora 05:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Rani Mukerji article (again!)
Rani Mukerji's article is once again the topic of discussion. I am trying to get as much people to discuss this, we need opinions from everyone. Anyone who is interested please come to the discussion page on the Mukerji article. I do like Rani's work and she gives wonderful performances but wikipedia has to be neutral. Because one person thinks she's No. 1 does not mean we have to share that opinion.

Shez also happens to be part of this project and so he should be working with everyone. Personally Shez can not tell anyone else (for example User:Zora) to stay away from the Mukerji article especially as he is supposed to be working with her and everyone else. I have started the discussion so anyone else please state your opinion and maybe we can avoid a edit war. Thank you. Pa7 14:36, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I re-edited (not reverted) the Rani Mukerji and Veer-Zaara articles, and in both cases Shez reverted my edits. He claims that he has "banned" me from the Rani page. The Veer-Zaara dispute is disheartening, in that he believes that Rani should have top billing, over Preity Zinta, even though Preity was the heroine and Rani was only a supporting actress. This is falsifying information to promote his idol, which should not be allowed. Zora 06:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree as well. He put Rani ahead of Preity in the film Har Dil Jo Pyaar Karega, even though Preity was the heroine of the film. He seems to give Rani the top slot in everything which is not fair to other actresses. I've never met anyone like him that loves Rani so much. I don't want to keep on going over the warnings and keep reverting his edits. If he tells us to quit then obviously we won't. If we tell him to quit he won't. I don't see a solution here? Pa7 13:35, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Shez is very active today. He is reverting all edits to Rani, giving Rani top billing on films where she was a supporting actress, re-writing the Veer-Zaara synopsis to make Rani the major character, and attacking the Aishwarya Rai article. This is just plain NUTS -- or should I say pagal? Zora 00:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not know it would get this bad, i think we may need administrative help. We are back at square one again!! Pa7 01:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Rajesh Khanna
I rewrote this article (I think I made it leaner and tighter in the process) and Anwar saadat reverted it, on the grounds that I had removed material. Friends, I think he's following me around looking for a fight! Could you please have a look at that article and check out my revision. Zora 06:29, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, it does look as if he has got a personal vendetta against you, no idea why? Other than that the article is good. Im gonna extend the filmography. All it needs is a picture. Maybe Plumcouch can find a good image. Pa7 14:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, he's stalking me as well now, if that's some sort of consolation :).  Noble eagle   <font size="0.5"> (Talk)   08:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * All right, he has an image now. Couldn't find one of how he looks now with proper copyright information. Maybe, if someone owns one of his newer titles, like Pyaar Zindagi Hai, s/he could make a screen shot. Also, I think his filmography, especially newer films, is incomplete, if you check out this: http://www.indiafm.com/celebrities/filmography/10412/index.html. Best regards, --Plumcouch 08:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Filmfare Awards
Hey guys. I just had a look at this. It is a link for the Academy Awards, and basically they have listed films which had the most nominations. Do you think we could do that for the Filmfare Awards. There is a suggestion on the page that the article be expanded. I was gonna do it but i needed some opinions.

I don't mean exactly to list the most films with the most nominations but instead include records that have been held and broken by people, such as Black winning the most Filmfare Awards and Mukerji winning the Best Actress and Best Supporting Actress (Im hesistant about putting these two things in because im worried that Shez will elaborate and big up Rani). Any opinions or suggestions would be helpful? Pa7 15:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Make it just for films and leave out actors/actresses. That should handle the obsessed fan problem ... I hope. Zora 00:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

INCOTW - Sholay
Sholay won is this week's Indian Colloboration of the Week with a record, 11 votes. Please come and help it become a featured-standard article. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 23:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Fanpages
Hello, fellow editors, I have a proposal to make: if an actress (say, Rani Mukherjee, to pick out a completely random example ;)) has no personal or official homepage, maybe the editors of the page could agree on a fanpage and add it instead. Wikipedia policies allow this and maybe we could introduce the procedure to the Indian Cinema Project (check this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL#Occasionally_acceptable_links for Occasionally acceptable links). To prevent an entire link collection, we could say that we (all the editors who work on an article) have agreed on the particular page, and *only* on that page. It's a bit risky, but maybe worth a try. Opinions? Best regards, --Plumcouch 23:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There are some big problems with that approach. If we pick one site as good and shut out the others, then the people whose websites haven't been selected complain endlessly about unfairness, favoritism, etc. We see this all the time. Frex, one guy wanted to add his favorite film gossip site to Bollywood, I said no, and in retaliation he deleted half the external links, claiming that they were "commercial". If we go by "a preponderance of the editors involved in editing the article" then the linkspammers have a good reason to recruit meatpuppets. I think people using Wikipedia DO rely on the editors to choose useful links, which is why the linkspammers, etc., fight so hard to get their sites mentioned. We hold the keys to attention, which to them means money. Myself, I think it's safer to allow NO fansites at all, but I'm willing to give the other approach a try if the other editors here feel that it's wise. We can always change the policy again if it doesn't work out. Zora 00:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Vijay and Ajith Kumar - anons fiddling with the stats
Hello. Many anons keep on turning up and switching the statistics regarding to the number of screens and screen-days of the movies of both of these actors. Perhaps it needs to be semi-protected. Regards, Blnguyen | Have your say!!! - review me 04:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that's a good idea. The pages are in a really bad shape, especially the filmography. --Plumcouch 08:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Using full names
Somebody has recently moved these from Vijay and Ajith to Joseph Vijay and Ajith Kumar. None but their hardcore fans will know their fullnames. I suggest moving these back to Vijay & Ajith. The policy governing this is Naming_conventions_%28people%29 which states :

Sometimes, mostly for names of antiquity, a single word is traditional and sufficient to indicate a person unambiguously.

Examples: Aristotle, Livy, Plutarch, Charlemagne, Fibonacci,...

More recent examples include (Far East, including South East Asia): Sukarno and Suharto (Indonesia); Hirohito (Japan) etc

Comments ? Tintin (talk) 04:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Add R. Madhavan to it. Tintin (talk) 04:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Stifle did that and appeared to disagree with a few people. If they are most commonly known only by one name, such as Ronaldinho, then only the one name should be used.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! - review me 04:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that these are traditional names, certainly not along the lines of the examples given. Stifle (talk) 07:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I put it there to show that is not disallowed. Roughly one-fifth of the Indian movie personalities are known by their first name alone. See List of Indian movie actresses for a sample.


 * The primary rule in naming articles is that they should have 'the name that is most generally recognisable', from which it follows that Vijay should not be tagged with a surname that hardly anyone knows about. Tintin (talk) 08:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Does it matter that much, though? Especially when Vijay disambiguates to him anyway. Stifle (talk) 16:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If no one else is particular about this, we may as well drop this. The most that can be done anyway is using Vijay (actor) and Ajith. Tintin (talk) 10:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My instinct is to use Vijay and Ajith as IMDb does. Disambigs hurt no-one - however, Vijay needs to be overhauled to make it more helpful, I'll do that in a bit. --Sam Blanning(talk) 08:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Urdu script
What's the concensus on the use of urdu in Hindi movie articles? Personally, I don't think it should be there since they are Hindi films...not Urdu.

Here's a list of them with urdu: --Dangerous-Boy 23:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Kuch Kuch Hota Hai
 * Karan Arjun
 * Dil Se
 * Fiza
 * Swades
 * Main Hoon Na
 * Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham
 * Dil To Pagal Hai
 * Fanaa (film)
 * Well we are using English here to discuss Hindi film's so what's wrong with a touch of Urdu ?   Besides many old time Indian filmmakers from Punjab ( ie Yash Chopra, Dev Anand, Gulzar) studied in Urdu medium schools and many use Urdu as the script they write in ( Gulzar). Most lyricists wrote in Urdu ( Sahir, Shakeel, Asad, Kaifi, Indeevar and Majrooh to name a few).

Haphar 08:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I could understand if the films were in Urdu but they are not. Take a look at Talk:Mumbai.  They decided the only script that should be used there is Marathi, not urdu.


 * As I understand it, the language of most films isn't really "Hindi", with all the fancy Sanskrit-derived words, but Hindustani -- the common, ordinary, every-day language of millions of people that is neither Hindi nor Urdu. Film-makers vastly increase their audience, to most of northern India AND Pakistan, if they keep the dialogues simple and neutral. Song lyrics, on the other hand, are expected to be poetic, so they often use Urdu (Persian and Arabic derived) words that sound courtly.


 * I was telling a Persian friend of mine about how much Hindi I was learning from watching movies, and repeated a few useful words (like zindagi and mohabbat) :) She laughed and told me that the Persian words were the same.


 * I originally wanted to avoid Urdu and Devanagari versions of names and titles. We had a big fight about it, before this project was started. I was over-ruled. The editors then working wanted to include both. So as far as I know, that's the policy. Both Urdu and Devanagari to be OK.


 * Think of it this way -- including the Urdu makes the articles more useful to Pakistanis, increases their devotion to Indian cinema, and re-unites the sub-continent in a shared love of Yash Chopra films. Surely this is all to the good. Zora 18:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Also please do look at Talk:Mumbai now. I have posted several instances there to show use of Urdu for city names ( including Aurangabad which does NOT have Marathi).Haphar 21:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we really need some kind of standardization on such issues: Naming conventions (Indic)--Dangerous-Boy 22:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

HELP at Dharmendra
We have a very persistent anon editor at Dharmendra, who says that his grandfather told him that he (the grandfather) had seen the young Dharmendra riding his bicycle to work at the hosiery mills. I googled, many weeks ago, and could find no substantiation for this claim. It may be true, or the anon's grandfather may just be weak in the head! I keep removing the claim, and the anon keeps restoring it, with edit summaries telling me that I'm a dictator, that non-Indians can't edit Indian articles, etc. Could someone else please help me out with some reverts here? We really can't base articles on what an anon's grandfather told him. Zora 10:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No prob, I'll help you. Also, I think we should so something at the Vijay and Ajith articles. --Plumcouch 15:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Articles being tagged for speedy deletion
User:Anwar saadat has been tagging movie articles for speedy deletion. The reason he gives is that was created by a banned user. Here is a example. This is happening without anyone here watching it. I think we need to create a list similar to "List of India-related topics", "List of Indian Cinema-related topics" so that we can watch for these delete tags. Just letting everyone know. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 17:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I see a bias when he mentions on the talk page, "As to the article itself, this film is just a masala entertainer. It is not a classic to enter encyclopaedias.". I feel all movies merit an article here. - Ganeshk  ( talk ) 17:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, his reasoning is wrong on the banned user funda - I have hopefully explained it to him here. As far as classic-ness is concerned, WP talks only about notability and verifiability and it is NOT paper - personally, I prefer to work on only very highly notable subjects but then WP has separate articles related to several fictional characters ranging from well known Star Trek and Pokemon to things I never heard of. So, it is a judgement call but my own feeling is that these cinema articles wd survive afd easily, especially with an IMDB entry. --Gurubrahma 19:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The criteria I can think of evaluating the notability of an article is if the actors/singers/directors are notable or have an article here. We should have a firm policy on this placed on the main project page. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Chat  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 09:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Moushmi Chatterji
Hi I have written a stub about Moushmi_Chatterji. I would like some one with info about her to add/rewrite the article. It is difficult to find any info on the internet about her, so nice if anyone could continue on the article --Dhirad 19:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

And two more Vidya Sinha and Ranjeeta
Can't get any online info on these two either so if anyone get's anything please do let me know, or use it to create a stub/article. Haphar 09:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

G.P. Sippy
We should write an article on G.P. Sippy-the producer of Sholay I have gathered some info, and posted it here: Talk:G.P._Sippy, I think it is adequate to write an article about him. I dont have time to write the article, so would be happy if anyone could. --Dhirad 14:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Baazigar synopsis
Does anyone have the strength to sort out the synopsis for the film. The current version is too long, boring and its ridiculous. Pa7 00:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm the resident synopsis slasher (and often hated for it), but I don't like to do it for films I haven't seen. I'll make sure the film is on my Netflix queue and get to it eventually, but it would be better for someone else, who HAS seen the movie, to work on it now. Zora 00:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I wrote that. I'll get to it.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 01:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to make the general observation that it is very very hard to write a good synopsis, and that different editors clearly have different preferences in regard to the amount of detail to be included. I'm always for short and snappy; other editors want more. The main thing to keep in mind is that (IMHO) readability is more important than including every twist and turn of the plot or every name of a minor character. Pretend you're telling a story to someone with a one minute attention span. When writing online, use short paragraphs. Long paragraphs are just fine for a novel, or a magazine article, but they don't work on a computer screen. For much the same reasons, I think a bulleted or numbered list works better than a bunch of names following each other in a paragraph. Zora 01:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, cut down synopsis. Kept crucial moments such as the one when SRK kills Shilpa Shetty. Anyone feel free to make any improvements. Pa7 23:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

List of popular Bollywood films
Have worked on recommended sites with list of films and updated the wiki list. The list is still underweight on the 1930's to 1980's. So any more lists available to add movies to the list or is it good enough ? No personal compilations please as I already have a 135 film list, just looking for online resources. Haphar 16:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You have done a great job. But I miss some movies from the 70's/80's: Namak Haram (Rajesh Khanna,Amitabh Bachchcan), Amar Prem (Rajesh Khanna,SharmilaTagore) and Namak Halal (Shashi Kapoor,Amitabh Bachchan) --Dhirad 10:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Dharma Productions
Hi. I created an article on Dharma Productions. It may need expanding or some improvement. Anyone please feel free to check it out. Thanks. Pa7 19:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)