Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Archive/16

Issues
I've written the article about Fat Chocobo. Now all that I need is more info about Chubby Chocobo in Chocobo Racing and the Japanese text. --Frid 10:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Image summaries and licensing
Images without proper summaries and fair-use rationale are easy grounds by which to refuse an article FA status, and can also be grounds for the deletion of the images. Thought I'd remind everybody and hopefully save us all some headaches. Ryu Kaze 17:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

FFX on the front page

 * I'd appreciate it if you could help with that, Tyler. I requested July 19 (the fifth anniversary of the game's release), and that date is fast-approaching. Since there hasn't been a response yet, I was getting a little anxious. Ryu Kaze 14:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * You guys got it!!! July 19 will be the day . Woohooo! Congratulations to all, but mostly for you two Renmiri 02:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot. ^__^ Ryu Kaze 03:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Many thanks :) &mdash; Deckill e r 03:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks nifty, good sirs. Crazyswordsman 01:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Attention FFXI players!
List of Final Fantasy XI characters needs your help! There's a couple of places that have way, way, way too much information (Prince Trion is a good example). I do not play FFXI anymore and quit shortly before the release of the last expansion, so I'm not a good person to try to cut this text down to the relevant bits. If you still play and/or are familiar with some of these characters, please take a look if you have a chance and try editing some things down. Also, be aware that I cut out a huge amount of copyvio'd text copied from Playonline.com and be on the lookout for any more infractions. Thanks! -RaCha&#39;ar 15:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Request: more details for FF7
Request: Please write a detail account of the story of Final_Fantasy_VII. I think it is too short. I highly prefer a detail account of the story like the one in Final_Fantasy_VI.

Major issues

 * I just noticed we are WAY behind on our cruft merging. &mdash; Deckill e r 21:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * On the subject of cruft-merging, any chance we can also get a consensus on what to do with the character class articles? Merge them certainly, but leave them in list format or prosify?  As soon as there's consensus on that I'm more than ready to start cleaning out the individual class articles that aren't notable enough for their own article. -RaCha&#39;ar 21:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't really mind, as long as gameguide info is out and the info is compressed. Games like Final Fantasy tactics make their living on classes (so perhaps the two tactics games should get their own article?). We really only need one article describing the classes with a "real world" perspective (although that can be tough with video game articles). &mdash; Deckill e r 21:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy Haeresis XIII

 * I've gone ahead and merged it. ~ Hibana 22:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Page renames

 * Honestly, that sounds acceptable to me. The more I think on it, the more I agree that using "Final Fantasy" as a adjective is a little goofy-sounding. – – Sean Daugherty (talk) 16:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Awesome. It'd be great if RaCha&#39;ar or Hibana could comment on this. A pet peeve of mine is that in articles like Final Fantasy magic, the main point of the article (magic) is neither capitalized nor is it the first word in the title. Axem Titanium 22:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm still not a big fan of "List of stuff in the Final Fantasy series" as a format, but I guess saying "blah blah in Final Fantasy" instead of "Final Fantasy blah blah" wouldn't be too horrible. There's just SO many links to change that it makes my head hurt just thinking about it.  I still prefer things the way they were, but I can see the logic of the change. -RaCha&#39;ar 17:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm against renaming. "Magic" is such vast subject and applies to so many articles that we run the risk of putting a needle in a haystack, unneccesarily. We all know the "drinking from a firehose" feel of getting a search page with thousands of articles weakly related to what you are looking for. Magic fans will be annoyed to find games they never heard about in the midst of the stuff they want to read. The only readers interested in "the magic of Final Fantasy are readers familiar with the game and they will find all Final Fantasy related articles easily using our current naming convention. Let's face it: Final Fantasy "magic" is NOT Magic and should not be lumped with it. Renmiri 14:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I really don't think making the article title Magic in Final Fantasy would lump it with "magic" any more than Final Fantasy magic would. Also, a search for "magic" on wikipedia yields 26915, which is a hefty amount, with or without one extra article documenting an important aspect of Final Fantasy. In that same search, seven out of the first eleven results documented radio stations, rather than any esoteric phenomena. In fact, I didn't see anything remotely related to magic in video games until Blue Magic on the 3rd page, roughly the 45th result. At any rate, "magic aficionados" will have trouble enough finding what they're looking for, whether or not this article is there. On the other hand, "Magic in Final Fantasy" would not only avoid using "Final Fantasy" as an adjective, it would clarify it as a concept in "Final Fantasy", rather looking like a loose collection of mildly related words (which would certainly be the case to a layperson). Actually, "Final Fantasy magic" is probably more likely to be confused as an article on magic than "Magic in Final Fantasy" because people would believe "Final Fantasy" to be a brand of magic, assuming they had no idea what "Final Fantasy" was. Axem Titanium 05:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Really, I have to agree that it would be better for those list pages to use something like "Magic in Final Fantasy" or "Weapons in Final Fantasy" as their titles. It will mean a lot of links to be fixed, though, sadly. Ryu Kaze 20:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That does seem to be a problem. Isn't there a bot that fixes redirects or something? Axem Titanium 20:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If this is the agreement, we should probably make a list of all articles that are going to need renames and a very careful eye at their related "what links here" pages, and have project members bid to take on each of the articles, to make sure they're all taken care of. We're going to need a group of people for this; it's a huge project for one or two people.  Again, I'll volunteer to help, but I don't have the time to take care of more than one or two articles.  Merging the character classes was a huge headache in terms of changing wikilinks and I can't imagine how much worse this will be. -RaCha&#39;ar 20:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, for starters, the stuff at the bottom of Template:Final Fantasy series. I'll compile a complete list as soon as I can. Axem Titanium 02:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The following is a list of possible articles that may need to be renamed per above. I'd be happy to shoulder as much work as needed to get it done. Axem Titanium 16:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * List of Final Fantasy airships
 * Final Fantasy bestiary
 * List of Final Fantasy characters --> List of characters in Final Fantasy?
 * Final Fantasy character classes
 * Final Fantasy designers --> Designers of Final Fantasy?
 * Items in the Final Fantasy series
 * Category:Final Fantasy locations
 * Final Fantasy magic --> Magic in Final Fantasy?
 * Category:Final Fantasy minigames
 * Final Fantasy music
 * Races of Final Fantasy - Probably not
 * Final Fantasy weapons
 * List of Final Fantasy titles - Probably not
 * Are we only doing the changes for articles that apply to the overall series, not for individual games? For example, Final Fantasy XI character classes > List of character classes in Final Fantasy XI?  -RaCha&#39;ar 17:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I actually don't have an opinion on this. We could if we want to and it would give a sense of uniformity of style though. Axem Titanium 18:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely go for uniformity. There's not quite as many lists as I had thought, but it would still be a pain in the ass to fix all those broken links. As long as a group effort is made, though, it wouldn't be that bad. I've fixed redirects on occasions like this about three or four times since I started working on this WikiProject, and it would be horrible for one or two people to fix all of these. Anyway, if it's agreed upon that we do this, I volunteer to help fix two or three of them. Ryu Kaze 19:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Character class merges ahoy!

 * Okay. All classes except those mentioned above have been merged and redirected, and I think/hope I've caught all the wikilinks to the previous articles for character classes and pointed them in the right direction.  If I've missed any please feel free to fix them or point them out to me. -RaCha&#39;ar 20:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Newest Featured Articles
Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VIII have both joined the ranks of other featured articles generated from this project. Congradulations to all the editors who put time into those articles to make them what they are now. -- ZeWrestler  Talk 17:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's absolutely incredible. Big, huge congratulations to all involved! -RaCha&#39;ar 17:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * A big thanks to everyone involved. I will make sure to give everyone who helped a barnstar. Sir Crazyswordsman 19:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Woohooo!!! Congratulations CSM, Deck, Ryu and all the editors that pitched in to help!!! Renmiri 03:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the congrats. ^^ Ryu Kaze 18:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Articles
I added in Aerith and Cloud, not sure when they hit GA status, but they are now! --PresN 20:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ryu did some of the major work there. Although much of the push was helped by anons and new editors, believe it or not.  Sir Crazyswordsman  20:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally didn't check the "Media" section of the GA list last time, so now there's Jenova, Sephiroth, Tidus, and Yuna in the list! --PresN 18:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hopefully we can get the rest of the main characters up there as well. Squall Leonheart and Terra Branford are close, and I'm planning on having Terra Branford peer reviewed.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:43, 4 August 2006

(UTC)
 * Yeah, I've been working on Squall Leonhart off and on, I plan on making a few tweaks and nominating it. I wish the GA process was quick as it used to be. Oh, by the way, tip: I highly recommend focusing on the main articles to be featured articles; character articles should just focus on achieving GA status. &mdash; Deckill e r 02:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I could use some help with Terra's article as well.  Sir Crazyswordsman  13:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I can devote some free time when i get it to help out with her article. -- ZeWrestler  Talk 14:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy Magic looks like a promising article to attempt to bring up to GA status. What do you guys think?-- ZeWrestler  Talk 14:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It still needs sources :( &mdash; Deckill e r 15:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy Mystic Quest hit GA today! it's updated both here and at CVG --PresN 15:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hooray! My efforts finally culminated in some kind of article distinction. All the better that it's part of the FF Wikiproject. :) --Tristam 19:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well done. Congrats. Ryu Kaze 16:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

And Squall hits GA! I updated it at CVG, but Deckiller got it here first. I like seeing that list get longer :) --PresN 16:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

To Do list
has anyone else noticed our todo list has thinned greatly. Maybe it is time we give it a mass update? -- ZeWrestler  Talk 14:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We have so many GAs and FAs that not many people gave it much thought. We're just doing stuff as we go along, methinks.  Eventually it all gets positive results.  Sir Crazyswordsman  15:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to be very bold and make a few considerable merges, and if I get objections, at least it'll rekindle the todo list :) &mdash; Deckill e r 04:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If one of them is perchance to merge the different Final Fantasy Tactics Advance character class articles into one article, I have just about finished the article in my sandbox, so you can hold off on that until it's done. If not, well... the article is almost done!  Yay! -RaCha&#39;ar 04:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool! I was talking about merging the battle systems into one article, "Battle systems in Final Fantasy". I'm thinking about calling it "Square Enix battle systems". &mdash; Deckill e r 04:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Awesome and past due, if previous conversation on the character classes page is any indication. Good call. -RaCha&#39;ar 04:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, rough, unpolished stone = Square Enix battle systems. &mdash; Deckill e r 05:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Changes to a bunch of articles
User:Druff has gone through and removed the nihongo Japanese transliteration of all of the numbers of the FF games with the comment "There is absolutely no need to convert roman numerals to phonetics." See a sample diff here. I assume there's a reason they were all like that in the first place, but without knowing for a fact myself, figured I'd bring it here so someone who does know can correct it or acknowledge that it's already corrected in the first place. -RaCha&#39;ar 17:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Meh... Changes like this must be discussed here. Just yesterday I was telling someone to check Wikipedia for phonetics and Japanese naming for Yaibal and Youcum. We need that in the articles. It's not gamecruft, doesn't help in the game, it is language and culture, it belongs here. Reverting Renmiri 19:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Clearly the phonetic renderings of katakana spellings (such as ファイナルファンタジー) have their place in an encyclopedic context. However, there's no need for that umbrella to cover roman numerals. When katakana, hiragana, kanji etc. are presented, it makes sense to include their pronunciation. But there's no need to inform the reader on how to pronounce roman numberals. Information on how Japanese speakers pronounce "ファイナルファンタジー" is useful information. Information on how they pronounce roman numerals is irrelevant. Druff 01:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I can see either argument, but since they pronounce the roman numerals from Final Fantasy titles while trying to imitate English phonetics (like the "Final Fantasy" part itself), I think it's relevant. If they pronounced the roman numerals the same way they pronounce their numbers normally, it probably wouldn't be as valuable to provide a romaji representation. Ryu Kaze 13:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, if they were pronouncing the roman numerals as Japanese numbers, then it would make sense to provide their Japanese translation. But since they're essentially trying to pronounce them as they would be in English, providing the pronunciation comes off as circular, unnecessary, and crufty. Druff 16:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * But would people be able to tell that they were pronounced in the Engrishy way just by looking at the katakana? Chances are that they won't and even if they could, it wouldn't hurt the article to have one extra word inside the nihongo template. Besides, Final Fantasy (ファイナルファンタジー) is just as Engrishy as any of those Roman numeral pronunciations and we're not removing them, are we? Axem Titanium 16:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I just explained as clearly as I could why I think the katakana pronunciations should not be removed, but the roman numeral pronunciations should. It's as though you completely ignored what I said. It has nothing to do with "Engrish". It has to do with relevant, encyclopedic content. However, it's clear that I'm outnumbered by this little clique who has seen fit to become a group of Wiki enforcers, so I'll just drop this and let the cruft build up. Druff 17:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Please be civil. There was really no call for that. -RaCha&#39;ar 17:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but there's a difference between thirteen (十三) and thirteen (XIII). Axem Titanium 18:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's precisely my point. I support providing the translation and transliteration of 十三, because it's Japanese. XIII is not Japanese, and so I see no need for translation or transliteration, just as the publisher in Japan apparently doesn't see the need either. Druff 19:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * But people would think, "Oh. It's a Japanese game so they must pronounce it in Japanese," but then they'd be wrong because the Japanese people pronounce it in English and wikipedia wouldn't be able to inform them of that. And besides, it's still only a few extra letters. It's not like some giant avalanche of cruft is going to appear just because we include that (it hasn't yet and it's been this way for a while). Axem Titanium 21:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Axem came close to emphasising the point I was trying to: since they aren't pronouncing them the way the Japanese normally would pronounce those numbers, it's more valuable to point out how they actually are pronouncing them. Normally one would expect Japanese people to pronounce something the Japanese way. If, however, they aren't, then such an assumption would prove misleading. Really, I think we should use the romaji representation in all cases. I think it's most valuable in the cases where they're using non-Japanese pronunciation (as you could normally expect Japanese people to pronounce things in Japanese), but I think it serves a relevant purpose of clarity in every case. Ryu Kaze 16:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed! Good point Axem! Renmiri 18:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy (video game)
An editor just added quite a bit of information &mdash; it needs some compressing and a copyedit. &mdash; Deckill e r 04:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Blitzball
Found the following team logos on my Ultimania Omega: Bevelle Bells and Yocun Nomads (pic below). Shall I add them to the sectio that lists "other teams" such as the Zanarkand Duggles ? Renmiri 06:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably should just for comprehensiveness' sake. Ryu Kaze 12:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh we definitely need these images.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Added it to FF Wiki too, of course! Renmiri 19:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're good at this, Ren. I only wish Amano art was easier to comeby.  Thankfully Amano released a book of his FF art for the first ten games.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy VII and timeline
Final Fantasy VII timeline and Final Fantasy VII terms need to be merged into one general article. I added tags. &mdash; Deckill e r 23:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What disturbs me is why we have a timeline for FFVII and not Chrono Trigger. CT is clearly the game that revolves around timelines.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If I were to say which game had greater need of a timeline, I'd say it's Final Fantasy VII, as Chrono Trigger is extremely straightforward while the other is often convoluted beyond belief for some. However, I don't see the necessity for either game to have a timeline here. This is purely fancruft, and some of it's inaccurate anyway. Ryu Kaze 11:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * CT straightforward? Timelines are a central theme in Chrono Trigger, and there is much more controversey in CT than in FFVII.  CT needs a timeline due to the sheer nature of the game.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * With Final Fantasy VII, many events were intentionally left to have occurred at unspecified points, often with conflicting hints as to when these events may have taken place. Even with the release of an Ultimania for VII, it's still got several things with regard to order of events that are unclear. This is not to say that Chrono ' s backstory is crystal clear, but one can fairly easily set down an order of "This happened in this year, this happened in this year, this happened in this year, etc.".


 * I think the emphasis here needs to be on the wording: "timeline" rather "timelines". There's plenty of questions that need to be asked about the Chrono series due to timelines, of course (one of the more obvious of many being how the hell Marle's family got Schala's pendant in the first place, especially if Schala gave it to Kid), but with VII such simple questions as "When was Sephiroth even born?" can't be answered because of the ambiguity imposed by the developers. Not to mention all the retcons brought on by the Compilation. Ryu Kaze 03:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the two articles that Deckiller suggested for merging can be culminated into an article similar to Crazyswordsman's Terminology of Final Fantasy VI or Ryu's comprehensive Spira article. ~ Hibana 17:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Preferably Story of Final Fantasy VII to maintain an out of universe perspective (that's why I disliked the rename to Spira, since it sugests that it exists in this universe). &mdash; Deckill e r 17:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If there is such an article, it absolutely must avoid such listing as this, and only have verifiable information. I can provide you with verifiability for a lot of things rather easily, but something like this would be a stability nightmare, constantly loaded with fancruft, even in the face of verifiabile information from SE, and is probably not worth the effort. Ryu Kaze 03:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And that's the reason why FF7 will be the only main FF that isn't promoted to featured article status :) &mdash; Deckill e r 03:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * More than likely. Ryu Kaze 14:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I submitted Terra's article for Peer Review
I need your help in editing the prose and finding some reliable, secondary sources for the character design section. All I have is the Amano interview I cited.  Sir Crazyswordsman  15:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The peer review for Terra Branford can be found here. ~ Hibana 20:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a little battle going on. The Trivia and abilities section is incredibly popular among novice editors and I can't seem to convince them that they need reworking.  Sir Crazyswordsman  18:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy X-2 is now featured
Final Fantasy X-2 is now a featured article! Way to go, everyone! ~ Hibana 02:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yay, yet another one down :) I've been talking to Ryu about spliting up for VII and IX, and then cross-examining the articles in a week or so. &mdash; Deckill e r 02:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, congrats! Axem Titanium 02:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the congrats. Ryu Kaze 13:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You guys are machines. Congratulations! -RaCha&#39;ar 16:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice. What's next? Deck said he's interested in IV, so I'll go check the situation out over there.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ryu and Deckiller have split up to work on Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy IX respectively, as I thought. I am trying to get Final Fantasy V to Good Article status. It would be great if someone could tackle IV as well. ~ Hibana 01:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll help you and Deck out if I can. I could use a copy of FFV's script, though I doubt I could find it.  Sir Crazyswordsman  21:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Congrats on FFX-2's featuring. I'm not a fan of the FF series myself, but I was looking at the FFX-related articles (I do have a passing interest in FFX/X-2), and the GAs for it (the ones on Tidus, Yuna, Spira, Spira locations) are VERY, VERY close to FA status IMHO.  I think you guys should make a push to finish these off and get them to FA status. --Kitch 01:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)