Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Archive/17

Final Fantasy Adventure Peer Review
Since Final Fantasy Adventure is officially under the WPFF umbrella, anyone who wants to help out at the article's Peer Review can do so here. Thanks. ~ Hibana 04:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy character classes
I'd like to have some more discussion about the current state of this page (see Talk:Final Fantasy character classes). We need to come up with cleaner headings for each class, since right now the format for too many of them is "Something/something/yet another thing" and it looks very sloppy. Some help to reach a consensus on what exactly to call each heading would be great. Thanks everyone! -RaCha&#39;ar 16:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If I may throw in my two cents...
 * For Dragon Knight/Dragoon/Lancer... Dragon Knight. The main article is called Dragon Knight, so should this.
 * Engineer/Machinist... Engineer. I prefer Machinist, but Engineer has been used more often.
 * Geomancer/Elementalist... I'd say Geomancer.
 * Paladin/Holy Knight... Pally. Used more, and a more notable class name.
 * Magic Knight/Sorceror... Magic Knight. Sorceror sounds way too much like a magical class, while Magic Knight is aptly named.
 * Bard/Dancer... while both are fairly common classes, Bard came first, and is in more games. So, Bard.
 * Chemist/Alchemist... They're about even in usage... I'd say Chemist, it came first.
 * Warrior/Fight/Knight... Warriors/Fighters and Knights are really becoming two different classes, but I suppose not enough to be split... I'd say Warrior, I guess.
 * Beast Master/Trainer/Tamer/Mediator... hmm... now this one is tougher. I hate to admit it, but I don't know. Frankly, I'd like to see what FFVa names it.
 * Hunter/Archer/Ranger/Sniper... arg... well, not Sniper. Ugh, all these classes have been used equally... again, I'd like to see what FFIII DS and FFVa name it.

Anyways, regardless, the 'alternate' names should still remain in the class section (for the most part, that's the case right now, anyways), just not in the heading. 74.104.1.49 13:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Pushing Final Fantasy VII to FAC
I thought I'd update to let you all know that I've finished fixing up the Development, Audio and Reception sections. The Compilation section still needs to be turned into prose, and the Gameplay and Plot sections still need a lot of work, but all the research stuff is finished now. Hopefully I can finish tomorrow. Ryu Kaze 03:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I was wrong when I said all the research was done. Taking care of the Compilation section required more than thirty new references, but it's done now. All that's left are the Gameplay and Plot sections. Which, I guess, is technically about half of the article, but it's the easier half. Usually. Ryu Kaze 19:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Work's coming along pretty well over there. I still have to take care of the Story and Gameplay sections (yes, just Story; the other two parts of "Plot" are taken care of), but that's it. Everything else should hopefully be done. I'm a little concerned about the article's length, though. At the moment, it's 78kb, and it's definitely going to top top 80kb before all is said and done. I certainly feel that everything here is relevant and should be here, but those unfamiliar with the context may not. Ryu Kaze 02:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely a little concerned about length now. The page is almost to 100kb. That said, though, the Setting, Characters, Development, Audio, Reception and Compilation sections should pretty much be done. They'll need a copyedit, of course, to fix whatever wording issues I missed, but they should be pretty good.


 * The Story section, however, while now up to the level of comprehensiveness it needs to be, is pretty poor on prose. I wrote it rather rapidly, just trying to get all of the relevant information out. While it's just about finished in terms of content, it's going to take a little while to tighten up the wording. I'll try giving it a pass or two to straighten that out after the content is up to standard, but it's going to need some work I'm sure. Ryu Kaze 14:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I just want to say that Final Fantasy VII ' s story is a pain in the ass. It has too many subplots, and since we have to touch on all the major ones, that means more than 10 characters getting their roles summarized. As it stands, I've still left a lot out, but goddamn. Well, the price of comprehensiveness has been paid, I've tried to condense things, enhance the prose and now I just need to add some images. After that, the Gameplay section and lead will be all that's left. Ryu Kaze 21:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Final Fantasy VII's poor storyline attempts to keep itself afloat by adding needless, pointless, and childish subplots. I hate FF7's story :) &mdash; Deckill e r 21:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a little harsh. XD I actually like the core plot to the game a lot, and personally like Cid and Red XIII's stories a lot, but a lot of it feels tacked on. The core plot was great in my opinion, but I think they realized that there wasn't enough there to make the game be as long as they had wanted it to. Ryu Kaze 23:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd go on a whole anti-FFVII rant now, but this isn't the place to do it. Feel free to discuss it at the FF Wiki on Wikicities' forums or at Caves of Narshe.  Sir Crazyswordsman  02:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm finished. The entire article has been revised. Check it out. Just short of 100kb too (98 at last count). It's a little long, but it has a lot to cover. Now, I need some expert copyeditors to get in there and check the wording. Hmm. *looks around the room* Ryu Kaze 04:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

FFVII is up for FAC!! --PresN 18:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy V's progress
I've begun working on Final Fantasy V but fear I can't go it alone the entire way. The Plot section needs extensive work, and, as Deckiller pointed out, the character section may need to be combined with it. A Setting subsection may not be necessary either. The problem is, as I've told some of you, I'm not good at prose. If anyone can help out with the story, it would be greatly appreciated. This is the RPGe translation of the game's script, but it might be more useful to use the Anthology version if you can find it. The names of characters and places must be consistent with the List of Final Fantasy V characters and List of Final Fantasy V locations. As of now, that means using Square's Anthology version of the translation, at least until the GBA version is released in November. Please contact me or leave a message on the game's talk page. Thanks. ~ Hibana 03:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I've pretty much extrapolated as much information as I can from sources I've found myself and a few references from other articles; sadly, there isn't very much. I guess the game can be considered to be too obscure for anything one could call "interesting," other than the planned Windows port. I keep finding unsourced rumors that Nobuo Uematsu once stated that it was his favorite game prior to Final Fantasy IX, as well as his favorite score to compose; there's also a tidbit on that Yoshitaka Amano interview, where he states Tina (Terra) is favorite character, and that he really likes Faris as well: neither of these are worth mentioning, though. The article is 30 kilobytes at present, and the Story/Characters info has yet to be revised - I neither have time to play through the game nor read any scripts/story summaries to write from. Unless the article is extremely well written, I doubt it will ever be FA material. I know it will be bombared with edits once the GBA version drops in Obtober and November, just like Final Fantasy IV was, but it will most likely not be useful. Anyway, I'll be satisfied once it reaches GA. I'll be out of town for the next few days, and may not be able to edit where I am. Keep an eye on 'er, please. Thanks again. ~ Hibana 23:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)~

We're all going our separate ways, huh?
While Ryu is doing Final Fantasy VII, Deck is doing Final Fantasy IX, and Hibana is doing Final Fantasy V, I have the difficult task of doing Final Fantasy IV. Right now, I'm in the midst of rewriting the plot. The next step will be for me to check the licenses on the images and update them as needed. Afterwards, I will have to add references. I may need some help in the near future. It seems that we're all going our separate ways now, but perhaps when we're all finished we can review each others' articles.  Sir Crazyswordsman  22:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Deck's plan was that we would copyedit one another's articles afterward. While it might seem a little sad that we're all branching off right now, on the bright side of things, the fact that our abilities have developed this much is cause for celebration. A few months ago, I wouldn't have dared attempt getting an article to FAC on my own (if I knew what was in store for me that is; I did attempt it with Final Fantasy X and would have failed had help not shown up). Hell, a week ago I wouldn't have even tried getting Final Fantasy VII there if all of us worked on it. I leveled up at some point in the past few days apparently. Ryu Kaze 23:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy IV FA push
I have begun rewriting the story. During the transition, you may see gaps in the story.  Sir Crazyswordsman  16:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I should probably note that I'd like to see this on the front page November 23 in honor of 15 years of FFIV. So when you're done with your projects, I'd appreciate it if you guys could come over and help me out.  I plan on finishing up the story tomorrow and adding references on Wednesday to it.  Sir Crazyswordsman  03:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That story section is going to be extremely long. &mdash; Deckill e r 04:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That it will. The problem is FFIV has such a long story.  If you can edit it down to FFVI's length, feel free to do so.  Sir Crazyswordsman  04:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I added Final Fantasy VI (and Chrono Trigger) to the FA queue
I'm trying to see if they can be featured on their release dates.  Sir Crazyswordsman  23:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea. That would be great. Ryu Kaze 01:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow!!!! Prety soon it woulld be the entire WPFF team that will be deserving an FA! You do already on my book! Renmiri 04:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Just look at the project's list of achievements! It does the heart good [[Image:Grin.gif]] Renmiri 04:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That it does. Ryu Kaze 14:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Deletions
Just a notice, List of Final Fantasy characters is up for AfD. --PresN 16:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. Ryu Kaze 19:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Images and fair-use
Hey, guys. I figured I should make you all aware of the more intensive analysis of what is and isn't fair-use that's been going on lately. It's starting to get quite strict, especially in FAC, as you can see in Final Fantasy VII's FAC. To nip this thing in the bud before it becomes a problem, we need to take the initiative to go through our articles and ensure that they're meeting fair-use criteria. I've just finished going through Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy X-2, Chrono Trigger and Shadow of the Colossus — and I had to resize almost every image on those pages. I still need to check out Spira (Final Fantasy X) and List of locations in Spira (I'm protective of these pages and those FAs/FACs I mentioned), but I'm expecting to find that I'll need to resize most of those as well.

I don't want to see us losing some really good images that we might not be able to replace to fair-use deletion, or even seeing some of our hard work that's gone into achieving FA status undone because of this sort of thing. So, please, go through articles that you regularly take care of and make sure we're good on fair-use criteria. It sucks to make our awesome images smaller, but if you want a larger copy for personal enjoyment, save it and then go ahead and resize the image here on Wikipedia. We don't want to lose out on FA status over fair-use of all things. Ryu Kaze 02:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I realized this was a problem a while back, and actually resized the images. If I wasn't in such a rush to do FFIV's FA bid, I'd work with Chrono Cross as well.  Sir Crazyswordsman  03:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Huh... What are the new gudelines ? Which size is appropriate ? Anything else to fix ? We have List of... characters, locations and such for every game, right ? And the caharacter pages, Blitzball... Renmiri 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the "guidelines" aren't exactly... well, they've not exactly been written. That's the annoying nature of the fair-use law: it's defined about as well as the term "executive producer". But if you compare the images on Final Fantasy VII to how they were before and after objections were raised on the FAC, that should hopefully give us an idea of how to address these matters before they become fair-use issues. Sorry I can't provide you anything more specific than that, Ren. I'd really like to have a more concrete idea of it myself. Ryu Kaze 03:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy XI peer review
I just noticed that no one has put this up here yet. FFXI's been up for peer review for a few days now. It really needs a lot of work. I know a lot of you are spread thin over a lot of other articles, and there seems to be a few good people working on it (including myself! Finally a game I've played recently and remember enough about to work on!). However, that said, if you get a chance, please check it out. -RaCha&#39;ar 16:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Never played it but tweaked the introduction a little, adding success story (I alawys thing why should I care for this game ? when I see no notes about the reception ont the intro) Renmiri 17:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I feel quite the same. Ryu Kaze 16:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I know a lot of people may feel burned out due to hectic and intense work on the spectacular Final Fantasy FA's that have and are currently taking place, but now, or at some point, I think this article could be very easily made FA status. It as gone from 10 to 62 references and is getting increasingly well written. Maybe at some point after this current round we could make a push for FA status. Good work everyone! :) Judgesurreal777 03:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Square Enix but not
This is probably a bit off-topic, but you seemed to be the best recourse on how to write SE-related articles. I wish to try my hand at Drakengard (in German), I have found many reviews and information (btw, someone with more knowledge of Japanese than me would be nice, I have a few small things I'd like to know from the sparce further material I have for the game). All these reviews give a general and well-rounded view of the game (great story and cinematic, lousy in-game graphic and gameplay), but they all are written under the same misconception. All of them (except one from IGN, I think) treat the game as if it was created by Square Enix, when Cavia created it and Square Enix only published it (as far as I see, Cavia created it upon request by SE). I don't really know how to deal with that, should I mention this misconception or should I only refer to Cavia as the developer and ignore it at every other turn? Some suggestion would be appreciated. Thank you. --Anibas 11:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That is an annoying misconception. I've seen it numerous times in arguments of "What great games SE can make" and "What awful games Square's made since merging with Enix". Anyway, have the lead to the article mention that Cavia developed it while Square Enix published it. There really shouldn't be any need to mention SE again after that, as you'll also need to mention that Take-Two Interactive was the game's PAL publisher, and since neither organization had any involvement beyond that. Ryu Kaze 13:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Will do. Now to writing the damnable thing, that isn't so easy as your FACs make it look like. (Take 2 Interactive was the publisher for North America, too, but Square Enix was responisble for localisation. It's a bit sad that I can only find the sales for Europe and Japan, but not for North America (was published too close to the end of a fiscal year)). --Anibas 08:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Cosmology of Spira
What the... Some joker is going aound and changing every mention of mythology into "cosmology" or metaphysics. I posted several notes saying "NO we aren't talking about stars, this is Myth". The guy seems to think that because there is no one who takes FFX as a religion (although some of us do come close ;-) ) that is not myth. Yet there is Artificial Myth just like FFX all over in literature, movies, games, .... Time to put one of those edit notes on all the pages ? Renmiri 06:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't worry about placing one of the edit notes. It's not been a frequent issue. Anyway, I do agree that the use of "artificial mythology" makes more sense than "cosmology" (which is a little too broad a term for the scope of what's being discussed in those sections), but "metaphysics" seems okay too in the proper context. Ryu Kaze 14:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * All is well and done but this is not a fight we have to pick. Artificial Mythology is a term used at Wikipedia and is part of the Mythology portal sections. He doesn't like the term ? Take it with the Myth experts, I'm sure they are eager to tackle those esotherical ponderings. Until the term Artificial Mythology gets removed I don't see why we have to change our page. Renmiri 23:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

hi
i looked for this wikiproject because i just remembered looking through various FFVII articles last year... and alot of them were really horrible. i know i'm not helping much by critisizing them and not simply editing them, but still, i just thought i might bring it to someones attention...

anyways, certain problems i saw were: extremely overlong articles- many character articles were saturated with practically the entire story of the game, and looking through the whole group of articles about the game, it becomes immediately obvious that there is a crapload of material that is unnececary and sometimes repeated throughout all the articles

bad writing (stylistic problems, imformal phrasing, unencyclopedic, bad grammar)

overreliance on paraphrases of characters' speech as indication of their feelings or fact (this is just a pet peeve of mine, but it's too much storytelling and not enough telling)

too much emphasis on fan speculations and reactions, especially when phrased as "Many felt.." "Many think..." "Fans felt..." "Fans think..."

and although analysis of aspects of the game using knowledge of psychology and mythology is interesting and relevant, unless it is atrributed to a published source (or blog or other internet thing), then it cannnot be in wikipedia because it would be unverifiable, new research. (at least considered that under wikipedia standars).

Blueaster 01:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be helpful to us if you would elaborate a bit on which articles these problems are present in. A number of our articles have become featured in the past few months (Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy VI) because they are of the upmost quality on Wikipedia. Article length is rarely an issue when the correct material is presented, and we've begun extensive referencing, in response to your last point. The problems, such as bad grammar and weasel words, that you've noted may be present on other articles under the project's umbrella, but we're attempting to improve them all little by little as much as we can. ~ Hibana 01:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * As Hibana said, WP:FF has a few featured articles under its belt but there are also many bastions of fancruft that still need major clean-up. Working at utmost speed without sacrificing quality of work is a major goal. If there's anything you really feel demands immediate attention, just say so and I (or one of the other editors) will try to get on it. Or you could even try to tackle it yourself. We always welcome more members. Axem Titanium 01:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hell just froze over: Final Fantasy VII went FA
Never thought I'd see it happen. Not sure how it did, really. But it did. So there you go. Final Fantasy VII ' s article is now a featured article. I'd like to thank Deckiller, Hibana and everybody else here on the FF WikiProject — or the Computer and video games WikiProject in general — who offered a copyedit, link repair, advice or just moral support. I couldn't have done it without you all for one reason or another, I'm sure. Ryu Kaze 02:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it doesn't seem as fitting as I thought it would, such a highly praised and historical monument of gaming getting featured. I thought for sure that spoiler opposition was going to put things on hold for a while. Oh well, congrats Ryu, and everyone...again! ~ Hibana 02:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. Ryu Kaze 02:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Monument of a game? More like overrated as hell.  But a great article done by great editors anyway, and that's the important thing.  I feel the same way about Chrono Cross, another article I worked on a little.  Sir Crazyswordsman  03:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Dang. I'm in awe.  Awesome, awesome job, you guys.  :) -RaCha&#39;ar 02:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm in awe. FFIV next, I hope.  It's 15th year anniversary is coming up this November.  Sir Crazyswordsman  03:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Even though FFVII is far from favourite FF, I have to agree with the others. Awesome job, Congratulations to all of you. (Enough praise, get back to work, create more FAs ;)) --Anibas 07:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the compliments everyone. While I'd like to get another one to FA status, I really won't have time to as of Monday. Sorry everybody. But thanks anyway for the compliments.


 * By the way, CS, I think Hibana was referring more to VII ' s historical value with the monument line. XD
 * Congratulations! --PresN 19:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy
The original one! Has been copyedited and marked up recently showing many citations needed, and I'm afraid someone will mount a challenge to its Good article status. If someone wants to pop over there and help me find a reference or too, that would be great. Thanks!Judgesurreal777 16:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've suggested that unsourced information on the music should be moved to All Sounds of Final Fantasy I•II, not because it will reduce the amount of citations needed in Final Fantasy, but because it's too detailed. ~ Hibana 17:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I will be out for four days
I have to drive back to school and buy stuff for my apartment. But I'll be back on Monday. Hope someone can help me with FFIV while I'm gone. I've actually mostly been working with Magus (Chrono Trigger) with Zeality, and we're trying to get it to GA. But FFIV is my next target, I promise.  Sir Crazyswordsman  02:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm back.  Sir Crazyswordsman  18:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm done working on Final Fantasy V for now. I've started to work on Final Fantasy IV. Let me know if there's anything in particular I can help with. ~ Hibana 19:21, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The Cloud Strife Article
That article is way too long, it needs to be shortened. He is a video game character, not a living person. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PrincessOfHearts (talk • contribs) 21:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC).
 * An article for a video game character could potentially need to be as long as one for a living person (it all depends on how much needs to be covered), but in this case, yes, the article needs to be shorter. This is actually something that most of us agree with, but our attention has been on improving the actual game pages for the most part. It seemed much more important to me to get the Final Fantasy VII article to FA status than to focus on the article for a single character from the game. Ryu Kaze 03:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And I'm going to stay far away from that article. If it weren't for wikipedia policies, I'd write a section on why Cloud is the leader of the children's RPG cult (whereas Fei Fong Wong is the leader of the more adult RPG cult). :-) &mdash; Deckill e r 17:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Amen, Deck. But Frog and Magus from Chrono Trigger (the latter of which will be a GA (my first) very soon, hopefully) are the co-leaders of the adult RPG cult of my generation.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Little help needed at List of Final Fantasy XI characters
An anon who will not respond to messages on his talk page keeps adding a huge amount of information to the Prince Trion section of this article (diff). I've reverted him twice before outright rewriting the section so it's not one huge ball of cruft. He's put his version back in this morning; if I revert him again I believe I'll be cutting close to 3RR. Does anyone know what the general policy is with content disputes like this when someone refuses to communicate with other editors? It absolutely cannot stand in its current condition - there is FAR too much information there - but I really don't want a block for violating 3RR. Can anyone help? -RaCha&#39;ar 14:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Never mind. I'll try to deal with this myself and I'll worry about it if it actually does become a 3RR situation. I've hit my third revert and left a note in the body of the article as well as another on the user's talk page. We'll see if I get anywhere. -RaCha&#39;ar 14:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll help! Renmiri 14:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)