Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Archive/18

List of Final Fantasy characters, locations, etc
Right now it only covers Final Fantasy I, so the title is misleading and is causing much confusion: I (and another editor trying to fix this project index page) thought that FF I lacked lists of locations and list of characters. The list of locations also went for AfD because it has nothing the other FF II-XII list of locations don't have, which obviously wasn't true since no other page covers FF I locations.
 * Moving all to List of Final Fantasy I characters, List of Final Fantasy I locations to keep it within the naming convention we used for all the other games. I'm tempted to do the same with Final Fantasy (video game) which only covers FF I and yet misleads readers and searchers to think it covers the entire series. Any thoughts ? Renmiri 20:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. We don't say "Super Mario Bros 1" or "Donkey Kong Country 1," now do we?  But that's just me.  On my Wiki, anyt category related to FFI is named "Final Fantasy X," where X stands for whatever is inclded in the category (NOT the number ten).  Sir Crazyswordsman  21:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I left a note about this over at Talk:List of Final Fantasy I characters before I caught this here. In summary, I agree with CSM. We had this discussion way back when the project was just getting started, and the conclusion then was that the title of the game is unambiguously Final Fantasy, not Final Fantasy I, and that we should reflect that terminology: the article was moved from Final Fantasy I to Final Fantasy (video game), as was done with a bunch of other games in several different series. The AfD problem arose when these articles really were little more than aggregates of information available in other, game-specific lists. If a large section of the List of Final Fantasy characters page hadn't been devoted to the characters of Final Fantasy VII, I don't think it would have gone to AfD to begin with. Particularly now that the lists have been retooled so that they are Final Fantasy (I) specific, I don't see any problem with the original titles, and I'm more concerned about giving a veneer of authenticity to a wholly unofficial title. – Sean Daugherty (talk) 01:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Can we just have a redirect then ? I kept on looking for FF I list of charcters and locations and thought it was missing. And the list went for AfD because "it was cvered on other gae pages". a redirect will keep your view and help distracted editors like me and the guy who created the AfD Renmiri 03:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * All back to "normal", this time with redirects for clueless n00bs like me ;-) Renmiri 15:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Updating Index
Trying to make the index of articles more up to date, but it turns out there's a lot to do. I've listed all the errors I could find on the talk page, so if you find yourself with an excess of time on your hands, why not help out? Fx21 19:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Will do! Renmiri 19:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I feel pretty much done now. Thanks, all who helped.

Changes

There were a couple of things I left though. Final Fantasy VII and VIII had a couple of articles of minor value, which I did not feel comfortable adding to the project. The various soundtracks of Final Fantasy IX could use a little work. I got confused there so I left them for now. I'm also not sure how many of the Kingdom Hearts and Chocobo games articles to include. Some are tagged as part of the project already, but even so, an answer from someone with a little more experience would be good. - Fx21 16:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd like to see Kingdom Hearts and Chocobo to fall under WP:FF, rather than WP:CVG since this place is so much more relevant. Besides, Chrono Trigger is here too. Axem Titanium 17:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see Chrono Trigger on there. Are you referring to Final Fantasy Chronicles? I'm not sure that one really counts toward the inclusion of Chrono Trigger because of Chronicles ' compilation-rerelease status.


 * As for Kingdom Hearts, I don't think those should be classified under the FF category. They only feature some cameo appearances from some Final Fantasy characters (I wouldn't even say that they're really Final Fantasy characters if you get down to it, because it's outside of FF continuity), and Disney characters technically have far more cameo appearances in Kingdom Hearts. It's best to leave it under WP:CVG, which is far more applicable.


 * The Chocobo games could probably go under WP:FF, though. Ryu Kaze 18:41, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I pretty much agree with Ryu here. I don't consider KH games related to the FF series anymore than I do Mario RPG, the Mana series, Ehrgeiz, and Secret of Evermore.  Sir Crazyswordsman  21:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I added the Chocobo games to the index and removed KH from the tasks. It turns out there might be some work left though. According to a quick estimate, there's about 300 articles in the list, yet 750 articles, redirects, etc. are tagged as part of the project. I'm going to try to make an exact list shortly. What's the policy on articles like Talk:Phunbaba? Should they be untagged? - Fx21 22:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. As for whether articles like that should be tagged, personally, I'd just leave the tag if it's already there, but I'd only add to the index those pages that aren't redirects. Ryu Kaze 01:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd untag it- redirects don't need tags or anything for that matter. We don't tag redirects that are common mispellings, I don't think we should tag other redirects either.  As long as the page that they're linking to is tagged, it's all good in my opinion. --PresN 04:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I spoke too soon about the article count. After playing around with the Yurik API, I've managed to come up with the following figures:

311 articles in index. 386 tagged articles. 1203 articles under Category:Final Fantasy and subcategories.

However, the category has the subcategory Spin-offs, which might hold a number of unrelated articles. For example, Kingdom Hearts is in there. I'll do some diff operations of the various lists and see if anything useful comes up. - Fx21 14:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The whole thing came together quite neatly in this automated report. Lots of stuff to work with, but it doesn't look too bad. - Fx21 18:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes, the 1200 articles turned to 500 when I ignored all the images in the media category. Also, the list isn't just useful for keeping the index up to date. Other uses I've found:
 * Locating tags where tags shouldn't be. (Which we've alread mentioned.)
 * Locating articles with no categories.
 * Locating articles in obscure corners of the category tree, some that at a glance seem of questionable encyclopedic value.
 * Fx21 19:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice work, Fx. Ryu Kaze 02:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Instead of just untagging articles, I created a Former WPFF Article template, and retagged all redirect and disambiguation pages. That way, we won't lose track of articles removed from the project entirely. Could someone have a look at the template wording though? I'm not really satisfied. - Fx21 14:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm done, as far as I can tell. I will keep generating now reports every now and then to track changes. Now that the index is up to date, time to go over it and look for questionable articles. I mean, Armageddon Fist, what is that? :) - Fx21 20:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Great job. Ryu Kaze 12:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

White Engine
There is some discussion on the White Engine talk page about merging it into Final Fantasy XIII. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 01:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Version 0.5
Was anyone else aware that Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy X have all been selected for inclusion in this thing? Apparently they haven't gotten to examining Final Fantasy VIII or Final Fantasy X-2 yet, but that's still three out of five that have been reviewed and selected. That's pretty damn good. I wonder if we'll have a chance of actually getting one of them in Version 1.0. I guess Final Fantasy VII would have the best chance. Ryu Kaze 13:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I will be offended if 8 isn't selected, especially since I feel it's the best of the bunch :) &mdash; Deckill e r 15:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll be disappointed too. I felt like that was one of our best efforts. Ryu Kaze 20:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 6 is selected and that's all I care about, since it's my favorite.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, they put Chrono Trigger in there as well.  Sir Crazyswordsman  03:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just saw that. Final Fantasy VIII and Final Fantasy X-2 are on there as well. Makes one feel proud, doesn't it? Ryu Kaze 13:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Aye, this project team rocks!!!! Renmiri 15:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And this is what happens when you get a bunch of FF fanatics who are willing to contribute to FF together on wikipedia. A kick ass team. -- ZeWrestler   Talk 05:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler tags
I think that all aritcles within the CVG project should follow a similar guideline. While FF users have enthusiastically endorsed removal of spoiler tags from articles, the rest of the CVG has not yet reached a consensus. It doesn't look very neat if the reader has to keep in mind two standards - to avoid reading FF pages because they will contain spoilers without warning, while being able to read the other CVG pages freely. Hbdragon88 04:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * First off: contradiction- no consensus means that not all of the cvg articles have spoiler tags. Second- you're free to read FF pages, just don't read the plot section.  Third- why read an encyclopedia article unless you want to know about the game?  This isn't a review site- we give out information about everything related to the game. --PresN 05:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Fourthly, new comments go above the navigation box, not below. --PresN 05:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Just asking for consistency here. And second, I (like it's done on most talk pages) simply hit the "+" sign to start a new header, which automatically puts it at the bottom of the page. Hbdragon88 06:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * All right, all right. I think we've started and ended this discussion more times than we can count now. If need more information on our rationale, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computer and video games/archive13. ~ Hibana 14:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * i've read the spoiler discussion and understand the retionale for removal. I'm simply stating that what we decide on ought to be consistent - to remove all spoiler tags or have all spoiler tags. Hbdragon88 20:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's doubtful that we'll see a universal consensus. Extensive discussion on this matter has indicated that the use of spoiler tags will most likely remain a case-by-case issue. At least until Jimbo Wales and the other people in charge of Wikipedia do the policy-conscious thing and vaporize those blemishes. Ryu Kaze 22:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Haha. Yeah. I remember Jimbo saying somewhere that he didn't like them but that he felt that there may be too much backlash if he unilaterally ruled against them. Here's hoping that he will someday soon. Axem Titanium 00:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * We've got a lack of consensus within WPFF too - List of Final Fantasy X characters has a spoiler tag, while I just removed one that had been added to List of Final Fantasy XI characters because my understanding was that we weren't using them for articles in the project. So... what are we doing?  :/ -RaCha&#39;ar 17:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks like a lot of the non-featured articles have spoiler tags (like the FFVII character articles). I figured it would be too much effort to keep removing them from articles before they reach a certain level of quality. Axem Titanium 19:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Under WP:CVG under WP:CVG fourth bullet point it states:
 * Make sure to use the spoiler and Endspoiler tags when appropriate.
 * To me it was appropriate in this location. It should be noted that List of Final Fantasy III characters, List of Final Fantasy IV characters, List of Final Fantasy V characters, List of Final Fantasy VII characters, List of Final Fantasy X characters, and List of Final Fantasy XII characters all use this tag. I think the archive discussion reached the conclusion that it should be placed if the author feels it should be. I frankly don't care one way or the other. --Pinkkeith 21:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I was going by a previous discussion at [] for my rationale. By this it looks like we were pretty much decided that we weren't going to use spoiler tags on WPFF articles.  Am I misreading? -RaCha&#39;ar 21:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, you're not. WP:SPOIL even admits that it's only a guideline, not official policy, and that its status is disputed. Axem Titanium 22:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel that spoiler tags alone give an incorrect message as to what Wikipedia truly is. In a way, it's saying "drop all the plot points here!", encouraging users to drop cruft and desuccinct the article. Plus, it's unprofessional for an encyclopedia to insult a user's intelligence by stating "this is a plot section. despite the fact that the section clearly states that it is a plot section, plot details follow". This isn't "this is an apple tree. apples are located here.". This is an encycloepdia. Therefore, since I (and others in the project) find that dropping tags in plot/story sections is a poor practice. As for the lists...go ahead, put it right below the lead section. But as I mentioned, it's pointless to drop spoiler templates in a section entitled "plot" or "plot summary". Similarly, it is also pointless to drop spoiler templates at the beginning of said articles if the spoilers are contained in the setting/characters/plot sections (which they almost always are). &mdash; Deckill e r 03:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Therefore, I'm all for upholding the project (as a whole) and its views on spoilers; we may be a subdivision of a larger project, but we still are a seperate project, and as such, we have the ability to come to a consensus over a disputed guideline (as long as it's not a plethora of them). &mdash; Deckill e r 03:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hear, hear! It seems most of us - me included - dislike the spoiler tags, so why not make it a WPFF standard ? Renmiri 20:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I know a couple of other wikiprojects have style guidelines in the project pages to create consistency within the project. Maybe part of WPFF's style guidelines would be our argument against spoiler tags. Axem Titanium 01:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy albums and pirate copies
Looking at the various Final Fantasy album articles I notice a lot of them have a section such as this. Does all this information really belong here? - Fx21 16:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems a little weird to me. Mentioning that there are pirated copies, okay.  But detailed information on which companies make them?  If it's not veiled advertising it's still too much information, IMHO. -RaCha&#39;ar 16:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Besides, google and ebay are there for the bargain hunters! Renmiri 00:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Right. Maybe we should remove it then. Are there any sources that say each particular album is often pirated, or is it a general FF album statement? Maybe this was a waste of time, I guess there are more important things to do... - Fx21 18:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's just a generally known fact, I think. Any sections like that should be removed in my opinion, so I don't think bringing this up was a waste of time. It looked like an attempt at advertising the pirated copies to me. Ryu Kaze 01:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll start removing them shortly. - Fx21 11:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

List of jobs in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance
I finally finished this and moved it out of my Sandbox. I'll be adding the mergeto templates to all the existing articles but I'm pretty sure they can be discarded pretty easily now. I'll leave the templates up for a week and then kill 'em to make redirects. Check out the article and tell me what you think. :) -RaCha&#39;ar 05:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Great job! Renmiri 23:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

All redirects have now been completed. I feel better now. :) -RaCha&#39;ar 19:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

English Cast / Japanese Cast boxes
Someone went through the pain of putting one for every character in List of Final Fantasy X characters ! A pity because it makes the page very hard to read. I suggest we at least merge the info or put it on the character's pictures, which are coded as a non-intrusive link. Discuss it here Renmiri 23:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That kind of trivia regarding characters should remain on the character articles themselves. The list should just give a generic overview of what kind of character there should be.  Sir Crazyswordsman  04:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

WPFF logo revisited
Game over. Copyvio. Could someone think of something that reminds people of FF, yet isn't copyrighted by Square Enix? Thanks - Fx21 13:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe I spoke too soon again. It was restored at commons and initiated a small discussion about what constitutes "derivate work". We'll see what happens. - Fx21 14:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it fanart? If it's fanart we need to ask whoever made it for permission to use it.  Sir Crazyswordsman  14:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well the artist released it into the public domain last I checked. Usually fanart in general falls under Fair Use anyway.  Then again, fair use images don't belong in templates.   Then again, it's a gray area at best that we're only going to get into a big fight over.  Sir Crazyswordsman  14:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The image in question is Image:Black mage.svg and by extension Image:Black mage-crossed out.svg. It's released under GFDL. As far as I understand it, it was transfered by someone to commons, where it was speedily deleted for being a "Final Fantasy copyvio". After that, it was removed here by someone else from three of the templates. However, the person who transfered the image to commons originally disputed the speedy delete and readded it. We'll see what kind of response there is. Anyway, I feel reluctant to tamper with the templates further until this mess is sorted out. - Fx21 20:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Awww! That image was great! I propose a stylized chocobo if that one gets the boot. My husband did a Chocobo in Origami to me, I can release a picture of that in commons Renmiri 23:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * When was this image for the project box removed? I was unaware that a change was needed for it. ~ Hibana 20:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I actually like that one best. It's not a copyvio (unless you can copyright fonts, which I know you can't), and it tells us what FF is really all about.  Sir Crazyswordsman  21:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe you can copyright fonts... But if not, what about those 3  and  ?
 * Too FFX-centric. Which is a problem for an all encompassing project.  Chocobos, Moogles, Black Mages, Airships, Crystals, Swords, those are things that are recurring and be the symbol for the project.  Besides, a lot of the fonts are fanmade anyway.  Sir Crazyswordsman  01:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Image:FF project logo.png needs to have it's opacity fixed. After that it would be ok in my opinion. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 05:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy IV update
I finished rewriting the story section and am now going through the script and adding references. I could use some help with this (I'm using the SNES script, so you guys should use that for consistancy), and I could use some help from our prosers to rework that. User:Zeality, who I helped with Chrono Trigger, is going to lend a hand as well, so we should be in good shape to get this to FA by the end of the month.

We could also use as much help as we can get in the other sections.  Sir Crazyswordsman  21:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I added all the references I'm going to add. I need someone to revies the prose and add other references to other sections.  We're up to 67 references now.  I REALLY could use some help here, as I want this thing on the front page in late November.  I can't express the urgency of this matter enough.  Sir Crazyswordsman  00:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If any of you have anything that can be added and/or cited about the game's development, reception, and criticism (the latter is quiet lacking in the case of FFIV, which probably has the least criticism of any FF title), add it to the FFIV article. I'm doing what I can, but I need some help.  Sir Crazyswordsman  20:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

~

We need a reference for the WonderSwan differences. Once I get that, that article will have been copyedited again and I will place it right in FAC. No use letting it stagnate in peer review for two weeks when FAC is a much better process for cleaning impurities. --Zeality 02:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Board Vote
As a firm believer on properly counted voting, a thing that eludes us in US, *ahem... never mind ... I digress ;-) Anyhow, I voted on the Wikimedia Board election I recommend you guys at least read the candidate statements. It is cool and interesting to see that 19 year old Wiki editors are competing side by side with 40+ year old Wiki notables, and to read their plns or ideas for a better Wikipedia. Besides, some candidates are clearly better than others (you can vote on more than one). Hopefully you guys will find someone you like well enough to vote! Renmiri 13:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy III
Information on the Nintendo DS version of Final Fantasy III is now located at Final Fantasy III (Nintendo DS). ~ Hibana 23:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy XII sequel
Heads up, Squenix just announced a sequel to Final Fantasy XII on the DS according to IGN. Be prepared for some "crystal ball"-cruft about it sometime soon. Axem Titanium 02:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Way ahead of you, Axem: Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings ~ Hibana 03:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * * groan* Whatever. Axem Titanium 21:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have given all of the information references, and I plan to keep it that way. --TheEmulatorGuy 01:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy IV update
FFIV was upgraded to "A-Class" recently, meaning it's better than a GA but not quite at FA yet. But it's VERY close right now.  Sir Crazyswordsman  06:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I left a message at Swordsman's talk page to nominate once he gets online. We're ready. --Zeality 15:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The prose is still quite mediocre in some areas, namely in terms of redundancies and tone. &mdash; Deckill e r 18:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's up for FA.  Sir Crazyswordsman  19:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is everybody? Not many people have shown up at the FAC yet.  Sir Crazyswordsman  18:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * WE REALLY NEED YOU TO COME BY! Most of the complaints are more against our style guide than the article itself.  Sir Crazyswordsman  15:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Intergration with cvgproj
A request has been made at WikiProject Computer and video games talk to intergrate the WPFF Article template into the CVG header itself. The newly intergrated template can be seen here: User:Hbdragon88/Temp. Thoughts? Objections? Hbdragon88 08:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm against it, bascically because much of the FF index (the only thing I actually did here) was updated by tracking "WPFF Article" transclusions. Maybe there's a way to have something similar though. - Fx21 17:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sure it can easily be altered to pick up {{cvgproj|final-fantasy=yes or whatever the syntax becomes. I personally think it's a much smoother solution than the current system of having up to three to four banner headers. Hbdragon88 20:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Wandering in to briefly comment: yes, it's quite possible; see, for example, Category:Military history articles by task force for a similar setup. You could get a category added when   was set, and that would give you the list you're looking for (I think). Kirill Lokshin 20:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your comments. A few things though. While it's technically possible to use the new tagging system to generate page lists by template parameters, it's my understanding that it's far from as quick. WPFF Article transclusions was one page fetch. cvgproj would be thousands (or a db dump), only to filter out the 300 ff ones. The category things seems like the best bet.


 * That being said, the main work with the Index is done, so the value of the old tags is more limited now. And a united banner for all subprojects might be useful for a similar Index-thing on a larger scale. In short, I don't really care anymore. Do as you wish. - Fx21 21:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't want to see the CVG higher-ups coming in and telling us how to handle our articles (people like the way we do things), but perhaps something like "... is a part of WikiProject Final Fantasy, a part of WikiProject Computer and Video Games dedicated to the Final Fantasy series.  Sir Crazyswordsman  22:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ditto! I had already opposed this move on the CVG page. Even there, there are only 2 or 3 who posted approval for this. We should be left for last, if ever. No reason to change something thta has been working quite well Renmiri 22:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)