Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Archive/6

Archived discussion

 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/archive1 - 7 July 2005
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/archive2 - 25 July 2005
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/archive3 - 6 September 2005
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/archive4 - 30 November 2005

Cleaning up
Lots more interest in the project of late, resulting in a >60KB page! I've cut everything as of November 30th; it can now be found in archive 4. As ever, if there's something that should be reincluded, feel free to drag it back on over here. Gamemaker 17:44, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Community
Topics relating to wider Wiki issues, project management and members.

December role call
It looks like the active project participants have reduced since the last role call, so it might be worth trimming the participants list based on the final state of 'October's call.

As before, let us know what you've been up to when you get a moment:
 * 1) Gamemaker - Managing to cast an eye over the project most days even if just to make tweaks here and there. Mainly concentrating on our newly codified goal of standardisation =) Also updating project pages here and there.
 * 2) --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) - Mostly watching articles for vandlism/linkspam/hoaxing. I do plan to cleanup Final Fantasy IX at some point.
 * 3) Hibana - Fixing redirects for all the Final Fantasy-related articles throughout Wikipedia; should be studying for finals.
 * 4) User:Saikiri - Mainly watching over the FFX-related stuff.
 * 5) --Htl2001 - Just started, so getting some ideas on what to do.  For now, checking accuracy and completeness.
 * 6) DarkEvil - I'm back!
 * 7) Derktar 17:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC). Primarily returned form Wikibreak. Will begin work on expanding stubs, and finally putting the FF Project tags on all FF articles.
 * 8)  cua HL   - I'm back, but no personal internet so my time is limited while doing my studies.  I'm interesting in reorganising the project and helping tweak pages as we go along.
 * 9)  WARPEDmirror  - Did some work with List of Final Fantasy IV characters...still trying to tweak it to best possible quality, and then possibly get rid of the individual character articles for that game.  School is keeping me very busy but I'm still trying to edit when I can.
 * 10) Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l  ✎☠ I've converted most of the FFIV sprites from GIF to PNG and changed the templates accordingly; made an infobox for FFXII characters. I will continue conversions where appropriate.
 * 11) Wwwwolf - Oh, we have role calls? What a novel idea. Been too busy editing stuff to look at the project talks - and not much time to devote to WP anyway. Anyway, lately I've been watching over some FF7 articles, little pokes here and there. Most of my time has been spent trying to get FF7 wikibook to shape. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 17:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 12) Seancdaug – Still here, keeping myself busy. – Seancdaug 05:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 13) Deckiller; just joined up a few days ago! Deckiller 13:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 14) Terraguy - Yeah, i guess I'm here, I just need to find something to work on...
 * 15) PiccoloNamek - Haaaaai.
 * 16) Chanlord - Hi! Just joined! I'm going to be working on the Vana'diel article. Chanlord 01:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 17) TabulaRasa - Hey there, decided to hop on board.  I'll be mainly working on striking off things from the to-do list, but I'll be more specific here when I find a lengthy project to sink into. – TabulaRasa 23:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 18) Zaorish - Yo, all. I was modifying the article Richard Wagner to include a reference to Final Fantasy, and I discovered that that article (Final Fantasy Music) is woefully in need of help. So I'm going to try to improve it. Any/all help, constructive criticism appreciated.
 * 19) Eeno - Decided to contribute. I suppose I'll tackle some stuff from the to-do list. Eeno 03:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposition
Hi, I'm back, and I was thinking that maybe I may be able to juggle my studies and Wikipedia if I was set on a project I could work on on my own time (for example, fixing or creating a certain set of articles) and it got me thinking. How about we make a section of the talk page for a roll call, which people can update at their pleasure, which outlines which part of the project they're actually currently working on/what they plan to do next. Also, we have a lot on on this talk page, and coming back to the project was a struggle to find out what's going on. How about sub-pages of talk pages? What I mean is, use this page as a portal to other talk pages such as /Archive, /Issues, /Housekeeping, /Community etc. and on this page is the index to those. If anyone thinks that's a good idea of course — cua HL   16:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree and I want to take the opportunity to announce that I'm back on the project and am willing to correct problems which have happened after my departure.DarkEvil 00:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed I am glad DarkEvil andf Cuahl have returned, and I am re-enrgized to help once more, although the loss of the images and media were a blow, I am sure we can rebuild the articles to greater heights. Derktar 01:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC).


 * Welcome back to some of the most influential people on the project! Cuahl, you have a point about the size of the talkpage; however, a lot of the topics in the Community and Issues sections can probably be archived now - I'd have done it when I sectioned the page but I wasn't comfortable deciding which were current and which weren't =) Maybe a trim would be enough, but there's definitely an argument to create sub-pages. Also, regarding rolecall, we have a new section in Community for December rolecall, feel free to add/expand that as you wish!
 * I understand. I was just thinking if we turn the talk page into something like a portal page, where there are sub-talk pages for individual matters.  This way it might be easier to find new messages.  I'm not sure.  When my studies die down for the holiday season I'll see about thinking up how we can reorganise the project.  I'm definately eager again to get this project working well :D —  cua HL   20:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah that sounds quite cool - I'd be interested to see what you can come up with =) Gamemaker 11:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, I made a sort of base idea, and I was going for a way where we can come to discussion and see if there are any new topics from one single page. This might be the most stupid idea in the world, but I really think some sort of improvments need to be done on organisation. I've worked on it in my sandbox -> User:Cuahl/sandbox <- but feel free to edit it and tweak it if you can. And uh, what do you think? — cua HL   10:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Not that bad, useful, but I think it might need some tweaking although I can't see what.--DarkEvil 16:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)--DarkEvil 16:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I like it! I take it that editors will add an item into the appropriate box, each item having a link to the full text on the main Talk page? The only downside I can see is that it puts the onus on each editor to properly link their items and text and makes adding comments harder =/ (currently one click on the correct Edit link is enough) Gamemaker 17:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm.. that's true. Maybe we could use it for something.. I'll work on it soon. But I've thought of an idea to better work the discussion. How about when creating the ==Title== for the discussion we tag it with the date. At least then we can keep up with when each date each discussion actually started? Maybe? I wish I had more time lately because then I'd be able to show my ideas better.. except when I'm in the middle of nowhere I don't get much time on the internet. Should be on Christmas break soon though. Thanks for the comments guys, I'll keep thinking — cua HL   23:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Christmas break is soon enough, we'll do with what we have right now. I actually thought about categorizing sections with the date, but just tagging them would not be pretty I think. Maybe putting them in a section like ==Date==, then the discussion in ===Title=== under it. At least, I think it should be an easy way.--DarkEvil 03:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Images and media
So, do you propose we try to put [the deleted images and media] back? I need to get new ones as I don't have the old ones, but I can do it. This definitely needs to not happen again though, so we should try to find a way to make the page greater, maybe using a template showing the image, like Cuahl proposed some time ago. DarkEvil 03:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that might not be advisable. In your absence, Wikipedia policy and guidelines have gotten quite a bit stricter regarding copyrighted media. By and large, the images we lost were deleted either because we lacked source attribution, or because our usage of the images violates fair use law. Using more than two or three copyrighted images per article kind of pushes things, since we're technically not supposed to use more than is absolutely necessary to illustrate the subject. And Wikipedia policy expressly forbids the use of non-free (i.e. fair use) images in templates, period. – Seancdaug 21:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I thought I had seen changes here and there. So, we did not use a template for the article, but I've used a gallery and there's already some images I've added before you posted this message. But, last time, images were lost not because of a lack of source, neither was it really bad licensing, but simply because they were all linked from and since Wikipedia tells that those images are not used, they were automatically deleted. This time, with the use of galleries, they're shown as used, furthermore, I put Fair use rationale to every image I upload. I hope it can be ok. Also, on a last minute note, they say at Fair use: "Do not use multiple images or media clips if one will serve the purpose adequately.", and for my case, Final Fantasy bestiary, even if I put one image of a particular creature, it does nothing for the other, they're not the same, while on other articles like Aerith Gainsborough, 20 images would be too much since it is always the same. DarkEvil 03:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It expect it would depend on how effectively we can a make a case for them. Almost every distinct image can be argued to make some point or another. The question is whether or not that point is worth making (and, more specifically, whether that point is worth making here, at Wikipedia, as opposed to elsewhere, like the Final Fantasy Wiki). I'm concerned that it may be an uphill battle to convince Wikipedia editors not as steeped in Final Fantasy lore that the point we're making by including images of monsters from every single game in which they have appeared is worthwhile. It's straying a little bit close to game guide territory, and I suspect it's likely to be attacked as such. And there may also be some legal questions about using edited screenshots like we've been doing (though I'm far from certain on that point). – Seancdaug 15:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's true that it could be hard to convince them. I liked the video game evolution appearing right before my eyes, but maybe we should try to keep one image for each monster, or two like an artwork and one from the most recent game in the series. At least that would be less difficult. For the screenshot editing, I'm not certain about that, it's useful to edit screenshots, I even do it at some point, but I'm not certain about that one because fair use is not supposed to allow much. Maybe I'll ask for that at the fair use discussion page.--DarkEvil 17:40, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I just asked them at the discussion page for fair use if modified screenshots were legal. Also, if those screenshots, obviously taken from an emulator or stated as so are legal. This could become a major problem for our articles if this is illegal. We'd have to retake nearly all game screenshots if cropping a fair use image is illegal, and maybe remove all emulator made screenshots. I hope this is not the case.--DarkEvil 18:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Good news everyone! (not trying at all to sound like the professor in Futurama) An answer was provided, it seems we can do slight modifications to these images like cropping black borders or changing colors, but as long as the art stays the same, it qualifies as fair use provided that a rationale can explain why. So we can modify images with no legal issues, we have the right to do it. I was even told that if the image is heavily modified, its copyright becomes the modifier's own. Its just that there is no magic formula as to how many tweaks makes an image ours, so let's forget this and concentrate on the fact that we can modify slightly images for our purpose.--DarkEvil 18:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Character Classes subproject?
I've been toying with the idea recently of perhaps kicking off a subproject to work on the current sprawl that are the Character Classes articles... Few of the articles have a standard format, many are not much above stubs, most have an annoying (from a Project FF perspective) generality to them (ie, they are not dedicated FF articles even though obviously written from the standpoint of one), and the 'index' (Final_Fantasy_character_classes isn't yet complete. Do you guys think a subproject is warranted? Gamemaker 11:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of character classes article and most of them are a mess right now, making it hard to organise them all by yourself. A sub-project could be wanted in such a case, so generally I'd say that nothing stops you from creating one, but I want to know first if those articles are wanted or if they will just be transfered to another wiki, like the problematic character articles. DarkEvil 15:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, I think the emerging consensus was to try to trim back the number of articles on individual classes/jobs, and to keep Final Fantasy character classes as a sort of representative sampling. Which is to say, it shouldn't be exhaustive, but it should cover major jobs (Knight, Monk, White/Black/Time Mages, Ninja, Thief, et al.), with one or two short paragraphs each. Anything longer than that is kind of pushing notability, IMO. In my opinion, the classes article is about as complete as it should be, and I actually question some of the things in there now (Paladin is kind of a stretch, IMO, particularly as I feel the Final Fantasy Tactics connection is a bit forced). – Seancdaug 21:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I may set up the subproject sometime then, even if its main purpose is to merge the minor articles into the main index. It'll help people see which articles need work if nothing else. Gamemaker 17:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

New templates
All, after seeing a few edits made recently by recurring non-members and anons I made a few new templates to, hopefully, make our lives a little easier. Basically, they would be used when we revert edits for various reasons (not including vandalism - I don't think vandals deserve any attention other than the revert itself) and would be placed on the user's Talk page. They briefly describe the reason for the revert and invite the user to join the Project. I've left them in my Sandbox for now so you can view them. Do leave any comments/suggestions here as you wish. Gamemaker 14:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Neat. I'll put them next to my Final Fantasy spam templates. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 17:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * What are they?? =) I've listed the Revert templates on the project page now, do you want to add yours there too? Gamemaker 13:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * They are templates to put on user's talk pages when they are linkspamming their Final Fantasy webpage. I've seen users post the same link to 20+ articles and the normal linkspam templates don't seem to work. I've had more succsess with these versions. User:JiFish/FFLS --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 14:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Moving articles to [a] Final Fantasy wiki
Partially resurrected from /archive4...

As some of you may have noticed, I've really been on something of a rampage recently ;-). Particularly in light of the comments made during our failed attempt to elevate Final Fantasy VI to featured status, it's become clear to me that the Final Fantasy pages in general are in a bit of a mess. In particular, we've got the fancruft problem: lots and lots of detailed information that is probably of very limited interest to anyone other than fans. This is going to hurt us in the long term, I suspect, so I want to return to the question of what sort of thing we should be focusing on. Again, I want to draw attention to the Final Fantasy wiki] on Wikicities, and put forward a serious proposal to start transferring some of the things we've got here in the 'pedia to it. Articles on individual NPCs, for instance, who might be important to their individual game, but are unlikely to be of interest to non-fans. Also, some of the more lengthy writeups of fan phenomena, like the Rinoa->Ultimecia debate, or the Aerith resurrection rumors, and what have you, could probably be trimmed down to one or two sentences for Wikipedia purposes, and have the longer prose moved. Does anyone have any thoughts? Do you guys think this is worthwhile? – Seancdaug 03:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * You also might want to check out this wiki: . It is much more complete. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 11:57, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that when you're moving this stuff that you should preserve the author information. See Transwiki. -- Norvy (talk) 14:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I just finished summarising the Gippal article to aid its eventual merge. While it wasn't exactly fancrufty, there was a lot of detail that could quite safely be removed, which reminded me of the above (edited) discussion. There doesn't seem to have been a consensus reached on whether we should be moving articles (or reproducing them with more detail, etc) or if so, to which wiki. In addition to the two wikis suggested above, I think there're also Wikibooks in existance (which to me 'feel' like a better place to move info, as it would still be a part of the Wikipedia 'family' (and would allow us to Transwiki). Any more comment on this, now that the project is a little more active? >Gamemaker 11:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I heard that a look of wikibooks are being deleted for not being textbooks. It might be worth checking this out before moving anything there. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 13:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It just seems to me that the Final Fantasy wikicities is the most appropriate home for this sort of thing. It has the potential to be substantially higher profile than any Wikibook, and because I personally dislike the rampant (IMO) abuse of the premise of Wikibooks. I dunno about what's going on over there in terms of deletion, but I don't really think it works best as a dumping ground for articles unsuited for Wikipedia, and, as JiFish suggests, I don't think a lot of what gets shovelled off to Wikibooks qualifies as a textbook. There are a number of excellent Wikicities out there dedicated to specific subjects, and the transwiki process, while not as formalized as the Wikipedia → Wikibooks procedure, isn't really that difficult, IMO. – Seancdaug 18:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Ok, I can go along with that. I must admit I don't like the GoogleAds sprinkled over the pages, but it has advantages over the BlueShinra site, namely that the former is MediaWiki-based and the latter is currently edit-locked. If we adopt the content transition more formally though, then I think it worthwhile to add a link to the Wikicity in one of the Final Fantasy page templates (so that it will appear on all PJFF articles), or at least add a link to the FF Wikiportal, and put a link to the Wikicity on the portal. >Gamemaker 16:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Holiday wishes
Just a quick note to say that after today I'll be off doing xmas things and therefore not likely to have much chance to put in an appearance here. I haven't abandoned WPFF though! I'll be back in the new year, and expect to see many and vast improvements when I return ;) Happy editing, you lot! >Gamemaker 16:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks for all your help so far. I hope you have safe and happy holidays. I'll be home, myself, so I'll be toiling away whenever I can. ~ Hibana 18:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. ^-^ QubitOtaku 23:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Happy Winter solstice. :) --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 23:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Happy holiday season!!! ^_^ :) Deckiller 23:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Merry Christmas all :D Hope all your wishes come true this holiday — cua HL   00:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Merry ChrismaKwanzUkka to all. &mdash; warpedmirror  ( talk ) 18:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Very good job so far, happy holidays!--DarkEvil 15:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I probably should've dropped a note earlier, but, hey, it's technically still not too late! Have a merry Christmas, happy Hannukah, crazy Kwanzaa, swinging Saturnalia, nutty Newtonmas, belated winter solstice, and/or a relaxing non-secular winter break, everyone! – Seancdaug 06:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Userbox
If anyone is interested, I've created a userbox for members of the project. It's available at Template:User WikiProject Final Fantasy, and is pictured at right. – Seancdaug 12:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we could add a category to the template so we could have an automatically updated category to who's involved in the Project? People could always add the category to the userpage without the template if they wish? — cua HL   16:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Userbox
Similarly, for anyone who is interested:

-- Chanlord 14:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi
hello i've jut joined --Madcowpoo 11:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Welcome! (sniff) Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 12:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * * waves* Chanlord 04:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Welcome to the project! Help is always needed. I really suggest that you carefully read this talk page as a lot of important discussion is contained here, important matters as of late.--DarkEvil 06:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello! And also, I'm back for a new year, wahey! ;) >Gamemaker 13:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Additions to the Style guide
I've been working recently on a couple of the character list articles, particularly the List of Final Fantasy X characters, which I've poked and prodded quite a bit to bring it up to standard. Anyway, it got me thinking again about the standardisation drive and the aim of developing a professional style, so I took a break and began to update the project Style guide relating to article content, focussing on the current consensus on character list and location list articles. I think it'd be nice to be able to cite our style guide when contentious issues arise; the sub-Talk page would also serve as a central area to discuss the guidelines themselves. Take a look sometime and see what you think. >Gamemaker 13:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was checking out your edits earlier while you were making then and I think they're great. I've been hoping someone would help pad out the style guide for some time - I think it would be great to have uniformity within the Final Fantasy series of articles.. and there certainly needs to be a consensus on what styles each list/article/bio adheres to. Looks good Gamemaker — cua HL   15:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposition 2
Hey, you might remember that some time back I posted a proposition to change the way we have discussions here at the project, and I hope you don't mind but I'd like to propose it again. Firstly, I love working on the project and still support Seancdaug who set this whole thing up way back in.. August? July? I forget. Except I don't have that much time to help out, and when I do, it's usually in short bursts and I'm not usually logged in. What I don't mind doing is being the janitor of the project (if I may.. even though that sounds stupid and/or self-appointed). I've got a few proposals. There's also a link for "Project map". That's just something I'm working on which will be an index for the project, so we don't lose track of all these little pages we have at the moment (a style guide, a peer review, multiple subprojects and lists etc) and we can keep them up-to-date. My next is adding dates to the titles of each discussion.. basically so it'll look something like:
 * 1) Breaking up the discussion If the discussion is broken up into current and community it would help separate it down and help everyone keep on top (without feeling overwhelmed with text to read up on!) To do this I proposed a discussion portal which I've played around with a bit at my sandbox (User:Cuahl/sandbox). Feel free to edit this page anyway you want.
 * 1) Dating the discussion

Jan 10 - Something to talk about

and then we can keep up with when each topic was started.

I'm not saying any of these are good ideas.. they're just ideas. I don't feel like there's much I can add to the articles at the moment (especially seeing as I seem to break the law a lot in the case of image uploading!) so I was going to completely tidy up the project a little. Tell me what you think guys, especially if I should change the talk pages about. — cua HL   16:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I do the like the idea of having a Project Portal, I think it could be very helpful. The new design you've put together looks cool and should be more workable than having to update the Portal's boxes with new topics, which was my only reservation with the first layout.
 * Regarding the dates, I kinda like the idea of dating the topic headings in some way, but I'd prefer it if the date reflected the most recent comment added to the topic. I've tried it out in this and the preceding topic, using a stardard signature in a level 4 heading, placed at the end of the topic, eg ====~==== . People adding to a topic would simply replace the expanded signature heading with ====~==== after adding their own comments (signed in the usual way).>Gamemaker 17:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool, I'll leave it until at least.. 2(?) other people agree on changing the layout of the talk pages before I throw my weight around and change it about. As for your idea on the timestamping.. I see where you're coming from, but that is going to make for a very heavy TOC! I wonder if there's a precedent for this. Maybe another project has tried to arrange some sort of organised discussion before.. — cua HL   19:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I might not have explained myself very well: I meant that we leave only one signature heading in a topic; each editor deletes the existing sig-header (as I've taken the liberty of doing here), writes their comment, signs it, then adds a new sig-header. That way the TOC only shows one date (the most recent) under each topic. It still makes for an ugly TOC, but to be honest the current page is far too big and needs archiving again =) Once that's done it may be workable! >Gamemaker 23:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry, I understand now.. would it be too radical to go ahead and change the discussion pages? — cua HL   16:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I sort of worry that this is a little too complex for what is ultimately a simple discussion page, and I think it's only going to lead to problems for infrequent contributors, or newcomers. To be frank, we're relatively quiet, as far as WikiProjects go, and I don't really see the need for change. If the page gets too long, it can be archived. Otherwise, I just don't see much of a problem. – Seancdaug 17:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the best thing to do first would be to archive this page again, as we're up to nearly 120k now, and its getting hard to navigate around the latest additions. I guess its true that datestamping the topics isn't really needed when the page itself is a manageable size; I still like the idea of a project portal though =) >Gamemaker 12:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Issues
A catch-all for topics relating to articles themselves. May benefit from being subdivided further.

Looking for some insight...
While I used to have no problem with every video game character having their own article, my opinion is gradually changing. I was shocked to see that nearly all 45 Chrono Cross characters had their own articles. Sure, I created ones for four of the main characters, but I thought this situation was pretty out of hand. And then I realized how hypocritical I was, having created nearly all of the not-so-notable Final Fantasy IV character articles. So, eventually, I'm hoping to merge them all into List of Final Fantasy IV characters, but wanted to include as much information as possible without being crufty (meaning I didn't want to move the entire article, infobox and all into the list). I ended up with this, and I was wondering if anyone liked/disliked it. I'm not exactly asking about the quality of the prose really, but more of the format. I'm still not sure how I would do this for the NPCs like this, or if I should include Cecil's/Rydia's other portraits. Thanks. &mdash;  WARPEDmirror   22:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The only problem I can see is "Class(es)". Since only one character has two classes, would it be better to use "Class". (For Cecil this would be Class: Dark Knight/Paladin.) Other than that minor point, great stuff! --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 14:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 * You know, I'm partial to the List of Final Fantasy II characters format myself. Maybe you should consider include the character images like they are in there, with the artwork and both sprites from every version of the game. Even characters like Milon, Dr. Lugaa, and the Magus Sisters have their own Yoshitaka Amano artwork. ~ Hibana 01:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input! Maybe I can figure out someway to include the Amano artwork in the template.  On a side note, I'm glad you like my format for List of Final Fantasy II characters.  I wasn't really sure what images to use for that one and ended with that result. &mdash;   WARPEDmirror   19:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps since the summon creature articles are being merged, a similar format can be made for each of the monsters. ~ Hibana 18:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I now have included the Amano artwork in the template. It actually looks better than I thought it would, even though Edward, Tellah, and FuSoYa are a lot smaller as they are horizontal images.  Any thoughts?   warpedmirror  ( talk ) 17:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. I don't think they are too much a visual problem (Edward, Tellah and FuSoYa).--DarkEvil 18:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * (Speaking of the List of Final Fantasy IV characters article in its entirety) It looks really good. However, might I suggest moving the image cells to the right side of the text? Also, we may want to create a manual TOC, since the template layout means that one isn't generated automatically. Other than that, it's very impressive. – Seancdaug 18:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Placing image cells to the right is kind of an habitude here, maybe it would be better, you're right. And creating a manual TOC would be great, I did not think about it, but now that you mention it, this page needs one.--DarkEvil 19:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Music samples removed
I've looked around some of the article and noticed that some (if not all) of the music samples have been deleted. What happened? ~ Hibana 23:13, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * See Images and media for deletion/2005 October 24 for the reasons. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 00:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

So, I guess that means the Final Fantasy album articles are a major mess. ~ Hibana 23:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll help clean this. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 23:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Phew! All done. :) --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 01:38, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, JiFish. ~ Hibana 01:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Following the fair use rules, and not wanting to push the limits of this law, I intend to get 30 seconds of audio sample per album. That should not be too much.--DarkEvil 01:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * That's a fair number. Deckiller 01:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I just added a sample to Final Fantasy VI Original Sound Version. This is a custom 26 seconds mix from three notable tracks. Here: Final Fantasy VI OSV mix. The only problem I see is that it goes a little fast from track to track, but wikipedia is not the place to put too much sample so it's got to be condensed. I'll try to do some for more albums.--DarkEvil 01:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Do FF11 expansions update
a couple of weeks ago i saw the chains of promathia page and noticed there was almost no material there, however the expa has been out almost what, over a year or 2. i was thinking that it should be updated with some story, equipment, spells, new areas it featured, all that good stuff, as it is now i dont think its strong enough and kinda brief. it was on the same level as the treasures of...something page. Understandable that the 3rd expansion page is brief, but chains and zilart are pretty barren. Just thought i should bring this up since its a final fantasy page. What do yall think? Tik 19:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll take a note of that. I've just come onto the project and I'm an avid FFXI player, so I'll be looking at updating all the FFXI articles. First and foremost I'm hoping to get the Vana'diel article done. Chanlord 02:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Current issues
Phew. I just got done fixing a few hundred redirects throughout the articles. Here's a few things I've noticed on the way: ~ Hibana 05:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The Final Fantasy bestiary example images have been deleted, dozens of them, as a result of non-fairuse.
 * The music samples have been deleted, and therefore should be removed from articles containing them.
 * Useless categories, such as Category:Final Fantasy XI battles, need to be deleted.
 * Certain Final Fantasy X-2 characters such as Nooj, Baralai, and Lenne (Final Fantasy X-2) may need to be merged into List of Final Fantasy X-2 characters as per the non-player character/non-significant policy.

i added a removal request to the FF11 battles page, how do i remove it myself? Tik 15:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey, I noticed the missing bestiary pictures too. It wasn't that they were deleted because they weren't fair use, it was because they appeared to be orphaned. This is because they were linked to, and not actually shown on articles. We should have made a template really (something like Template:FF-bestiary) to warn administrators. Or maybe used the template I proposed way back in the summer. I've posted a message on TheCoffee's talk page (here) so we'll see if we can get the images back eh? Side note.. how are you all :D —  cua HL   16:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Coffee replied to me, (here), so there's no way they can be saved. I'll go ahead and delete all unused links on the bestiary pages. If anyone has a suggestion for a template we could use to prevent anything like this happening again...? — cua HL   17:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Use not orphan. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 01:58, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * About the images, I can provide them back with time using the template not orphan if needed, but for the music, even if I may agree that a sample for each track might have been too much, there are false things who were said about them, just go there : Images and media for deletion/2005 October 24. The false thing is that they are blatant copyvios because many are whole tracks (this is false, they were all samples and 2 minutes samples were off of tracks that lasted 20 minutes), they are unused (they were all linked, which might explain, but they had links to the page using them), they are not fair use (it's true that there was no rationale). But the thing which really strikes me is "Delete all. Full tracks of copyrighted music are blatent copyvios" because there were no full tracks as far as I can remember. What do you think, should I put some samples and is there a page explaining wikipedia's policy about audio samples? DarkEvil 03:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I've started adding images I have into the article, we should probably convert the list sections to galleries to avoid robot deletions. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 03:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I've proposed a new look at our sandbox, I'd like to know what you think. Anybody can improve it and if you think it's ready, I'll change the article with this new look. It's directly based on List of Final Fantasy II characters which I thought was looking good.DarkEvil 21:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow, I love it. Just make sure all the images are low size or else the pages will take forever to load for the average reader. ~ Hibana 01:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. For the image size, I thought we could put a higher size on the left showing the artwork for the monster when there is one available (there is one for the bomb I just didn't have it at the time) and then all games on the right low size. If there are no artwork for the monster, maybe put nothing or the most recent version. I don't think this can be improved much more than it is right now, so I'll convert the article as I go along. If there is need for a change, we will do it as the article progress.--DarkEvil 03:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Needing translation
I wonder if anyone could javascript: translate me this from Japanese to English or French because I need it to put the correct information relating to an image. I need a correct translation, not machine translation, I've already tried that and it produced weird sentences. Here's the text: Q&A、ゲームの攻略などに関する質問はお受けしておりません また、弊誌に掲載された写真、文章の無許諾での転載、使用に関しましては一切お断わりいたします

ウォッチ編集部内GAME Watch担当 game-watch@impress.co.jp I hope someone can help.--DarkEvil 02:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The Alta Vista Babel Fish says:

"We have not done to receive the question regarding Q&A and the capture etc. of the game and, with non permission of the photograph and the composition which are published to the 弊 magazine in regard to reprinting and using we refuse altogether Watch compilation circles GAME Watch charge game-watch@impress.co.jp" ~ Hibana 02:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * That's kind of part of the problem, this is hard to understand, if there is someone who could provide a better translation, that would be appreciated, for now, I'll try to use that one.--DarkEvil 04:51, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

New articles
There are a few new articles that I've stumbled upon in the past few weeks that need assessing: I've already categorized most of them. I just need to see what everyone else thinks. ~ Hibana 18:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) First Tsurugi
 * 2) Dark Knight (character class)
 * 3) I Want to be Your Canary
 * 4) Firioniel
 * 5) Maria (Final Fantasy II)
 * 6) Guy (Final Fantasy II)
 * 7) MingWu
 * 8) Josef (Final Fantasy II)
 * 9) Gordon (Final Fantasy II)
 * 10) Layla (Final Fantasy II)
 * 11) Ricard Highwind
 * 12) Leonhart
 * 13) Bartz Clauser
 * 14) Reina Charlotte Tycoon
 * Ummm I know this is coming from the guy who (regretfully) created all the Final Fantasy IV character articles but ummm do the Final Fantasy II characters REALLY need their own articles? Hardly any of them are well known and most of them have a very small personal story, most of which is already covered in List of Final Fantasy II characters.  &mdash; Warpedmirror 03:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, I think the character articles currently existing should gradually be transformed in a list of characters which is perfectly suitable for Final Fantasy II. New articles like this should not have been created. As for the two other, I'm not totally certain if they need their own article, but let's keep them for now.--DarkEvil 04:55, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * As DarkEvil said. Gamemaker 12:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * There is already a sufficient List of Final Fantasy II characters anyway. ~ Hibana 14:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, since we all seem to agree that the FF2 character articles really have no purpose, I'm going to put the Wikipedia:merge template on these for maybe a day or two and then I'll just move any important, not already covered information to List of Final Fantasy II characters. &mdash; Warpedmirror 21:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I Want to be Your Canary should be merged into Final Fantasy IX. There's very little there once the script is removed. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 21:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Of these, the only article I can personally justify is Dark Knight, and even then it's not like I'd fight tooth and nail to keep it. First Tsurugi should be pared down considerably and merged into Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children, I Want to be Your Canary should be merged into Final Fantasy IX, and the character articles should all be merged into List of Final Fantasy II characters, IMO. – Seancdaug 21:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Totally agree with this, I think most new Final Fantasy articles these days will be things to merge as there exist plenty of them already.--DarkEvil 03:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * All right, I've redirected the Final Fantasy II character articles to List of Final Fantasy II characters and transwiki'd First Tsurugi and I Want to be Your Canary to the Final Fantasy Wiki. That leaves the Final Fantasy V character articles: does anyone want to take a crack at creating a List of Final Fantasy V characters? – Seancdaug 21:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Ask FlareNUKE; that person is the one who created all the FFII and both of the FFV character pages. They seem to be pretty knowledgable about the subject. ~ Hibana 21:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I've done the list of Final Fantasy V characters article taking information from the already existing articles and adding very minor info on Galuf, Krile and Faris.--DarkEvil 21:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Suggested move
Why Summon magic (Final Fantasy), if Summon magic doesn't exist? I only don't move it because there would be too many redirect-fix to do... igordebraga &#91;&#91;User talk:Igordebraga&#124;*]] 17:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Summon magic exists in several other games, though they may not have articles just yet. See Manual of Style. ~ Hibana 17:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree, I think the inexistant summon magic article would be about the concept of summoning in general.--DarkEvil 17:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Fair use
Some fast and easy things to understand fair use.

Images: if they are slightly modified (cropping, brightness adjustment) but still not damaging the original art, they can still be used as fair use images. You can't change seriously a copyrighted image without the author's permission and then again, you have rights only on the modifications themselves, not on the image as a whole. No more than 5 fair use illustrations or photographs from a same artist can be used in a work. For published collective works (a game like Final Fantasy is a collective work, not just one person's own) no more than 10% or 15 images from the original whichever is least (15 images in our case). They must be low resolution (image size), and also at 72 pixels/inch, to be certain that someone could not use them as piracy. Exemple: An image exactly the same resolution as the original such as a movie poster could easily be used for piracy (once again, I'm not sure about game screenshots at the same resolution as the original, but I don't think they'd serve for piracy). Most images must be accompanied by a commentary:
 * Cover art. Cover art from various items, for identification and critical commentary (not for identification without critical commentary).
 * Team and corporate logos. For identification.  See Logos.
 * Stamps and currency. For identification.
 * Other promotional material. Posters, programs, billboards, ads.  For critical commentary.
 * Film and television stills. For critical commentary and discussion of cinematic and televisual history.
 * Screen shots from software products. For critical commentary.
 * Paintings and other works of visual art. For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school.
 * Publicity photos. For identification. See Publicity photos.

Audio: audio samples should be at most 30 seconds or 10% of the original, whichever is least. For an album, the same rule applies and 30 seconds should not be exceeded for the whole album. Furthermore, the sample should preserve the same value as the original, not adding your own material or modyfing it in a way that its not recognizable. They should not contain the heart of the work, such as a famous guitar solo in a song (I know that this does not really applies to Final Fantasy songs).

This is intended as a quick and simple guide to using fair use for our project. If I made a mistake or if there is something missing, you should correct it.--DarkEvil 19:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll have to admit I'm a bit guilty of slightly modifying an image: the Japanese Final Fantasy Mystic Quest boxart. The one I found was darkened on the edges and had cracks in the box, so I touched it up some. I was kind of wondering what the policy on that was. ~ Hibana 20:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * So you see that you had the right for this little modification. I was wondering if putting fair use rules here would be useful, it seems it is.--DarkEvil 20:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I entirely buy the argument that if we modify an image enough we remove the original copyright. Surely such an object would be considered a derivative work. Leaving that aside, however, we do have a serious concern based on these guidelines alone: taken as three individual articles, the Final Fantasy bestiary pages are pushing that limit. But I don't think a copyright lawyer would accept that Final Fantasy bestiary (A-E) is fundamentally a different work than Final Fantasy bestiary (F-M), in any case. I would also add that it's very important we not overlook the importance of context. I was involved in an AfD debate over various video game screenshot gallery pages a few months ago, and the ultimate consensus was that fair use images should always be contextualized: by and large, we can't just throw in an image gallery without descriptive (and free content) text explaining its relevance. Just more food for thought, I guess. – Seancdaug 21:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know about it too much, that was an argument someone told me when I asked. But I had no intention of using it, anyway, we want images to be as close to the original as possible most of the time, not our creation, were talking about Final Fantasy and not our own work. I too do not think that each Final Fantasy bestiary is a work of its own, just part of a bigger work. If we follow the guidelines, I will be forced to limit all images to 15 per game, not more than that, for all Final Fantasy bestiary pages. That's what I plan to do, I don't want to go against the rules. The fact that they need to be commented is harder to take care of. I'm not entirely certain as to what to say about one of these images. Maybe I could compare two images from different games in the series representing the same monster to show the graphic evolution, that'd make something to say. I'm not certain if you understand everything I said as I am kind of writing as I think about it, but I really think we should reach an agreement of some sort before I can continue working on this article. Also, there are some other articles which are using more images than they should. Those should eventually be corrected too. But let's resolve the biggest problem first.--DarkEvil 21:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)