Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Archive/9

Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project
Hi, I'm a member of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot! Gflores Talk 17:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Spira for sure. It's better than good!PiccoloNamek 23:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a good one; I just added it to the good articles list. Deckiller 23:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Final Fantasy VI was almost featured and List of Final Fantasy titles is a featured list. IMO, these are our best two articles. Final Fantasy is also in pretty good shape. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 23:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the replies. I've added them here... Keep the suggestions coming! :) Gflores Talk 23:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Does this project not cover lists? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 12:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I had initially thought no, but it turns out, we do cover lists. Feel free to add them or if you're too busy, I'll add them later today. Thanks. Gflores Talk 19:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Newly added articles
A number of new articles have been added recently to the 'project space'. Please could we ensure the project Index is kept up to date! >Gamemaker 12:48, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, I'll crawl Wikipedia soon and see to about updating that. — Cua HL 17:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

WPFF peer review
Hi there. Just a quick question. Do you think the Project is benefitting from the peer review? I mean, no one uses it, and while I've been thinking about the project, I was thinking maybe we could change it into a collaboration of the fortnight/month. Much like what CVG have going on here (gaming collaboration) and here (improvement drive). Maybe if I changed the review into something similar, we could all help each other better? Give me your feedback please. Hope you're all well :D — Cua HL 17:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think our Review section gets much 'advertising' - its possible that not all contributors know about it. Perhaps a few more notices/links to it dotted around the project pages might help (the articles listed 'for improvement' on the ToDo page could perhaps be added to Review by default?). Incidentally it would probably make sense to havea means to archive some of the older discussion on the Review page (like the Spira debate) once its concluded; I did some experimental tidy-up over there a while back but that feature's still lacking. >Gamemaker 23:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you not think we'd benefit from focusing on one article every 2 weeks? — Cua HL 23:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Can everyone please please give an opinion on this. — Cua HL 13:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't participated in an 'article drive' so I'm not the best one to comment. I'd say go for it and see how it goes. One possible downside, given the current lull in project activity, might be that the need to debate issues with other editors would require a higher level of participation than people can afford right now. Articles might become the province of whomever can spare the most time rather than whomever could provide the best input. >Gamemaker 13:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy XIII article
A user has added a Final Fantasy XIII article. I think this is premature and I have sent it to AfD. Opinions welcome. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 20:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree - the XII article was enough of a crystal ball last time I looked (I'm not looking anymore as I don't want Spoilers). >Gamemaker 23:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I should have said, opinions welcome on the AfD page. ;) --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 23:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Review of the Character Class articles
For those who aren't aware, there's a Review in progress on these articles, and its reached the point where input from other users would be of use. Please take a looksee, or another one, if you already have, and see if there's anything you can add - cheers! >Gamemaker 23:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

FFX-2 Characters
So long as Gamemaker's bringing up one thing from the "To do" list, I'll bring up another. It was proposed -- apparently some time ago -- that Nooj, Gippal and Shuyin's pages be merged into the List of Final Fantasy X-2 characters page.

Anyone have an opinion on these things? As I've noted on the talk page for the X-2 characters list, I don't really think any of these three have the notability to warrant their own page, especially not Gippal and Nooj. Shuyin's the only one who really might warrant his own page.

Gippal's info could easily be summarized and incorporated into the list page without losing anything relevant, and Nooj's could be shortened easily, as well, despite how big it looks (half of its fancruft that we could chop off and not miss).

The only one I'm hesitant to think about getting rid of is Shuyin's page. There's more to say about him than any of the other new characters in X-2, and there is some good information on his page. That said, so much of his information directly relates to the rest of the cast of X-2 and its main events that all the info can easily be maintained on the character list and the main X-2 page amongst the respective characters and the story summary. That said, if his page were merged, it should be first copied to the FF wiki.

If anyone's got anything to add, please do so on the character list talk page. And now, with all that said, I'll head over to the Job Class pages to see if I can help out any there.

P.S. Don't worry, Cuahl; I'm in no hurry with this particular project. Ryu Kaze 16:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree on the idea of a merge - I feel they can all be thrown into one article, and that it would actually be beneficial if they were. — Cua HL 22:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, if there's no objections, I'll get on this in the next 12 hours. Ryu Kaze 18:40, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Doesn't look like anyone's out to object :) — Cua HL 21:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So it would seem. I've carried out the execution. Ryu Kaze 01:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

List of Final Fantasy XI characters
If anyone's interested, can someone please proof List of Final Fantasy XI characters? I've given it a major overhaul, rewriting most paragraphs, tagging sections as stubs, creating a new TOC, alphabetising the list.. etc. If someone could expand the stubs or read through and add something to the quality of the article, that would be great. I'll also throw this on the WPFF Todo. — Cua HL 22:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Lunar Cry notice
Someone created a Lunar Cry page...Deckiller 21:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hm. I can see the potential reasoning for this.. I might pad this one out if I have time tonight. — Cua HL 21:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, wait. There'll be nowhere near enough information for an article. Second thoughts suggest an article called List of Final Fantasy VIII terms (ala List of Final Fantasy VII terms) or simply make a big ass List of Final Fantasy terms article? — Cua HL 22:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the Xenosaga games have the following lists: minor characters, protagonists, antagonists, planets, organizations, starships, and other terms. I might be forgetting one or two ^ ^. I think each game in the series should have a list of terms like the List of terms in Xenosaga.
 * This really isn't notable enough for inclusion. The article should be transwikied to the Final Fantasy Wiki and deleted. Send to AfD? or can we transwiki without doing that? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 22:48, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say transwiki and redirect. Deckiller 23:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's littered with inaccuracies; if it's going to be transwikied it needs correcting first. >Gamemaker 10:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Pretty good idea. Right now, though we only have lists for FFVII and FFX.  I'd consider an FFVI one to be made next (as both Magitek and War of the Magi got merged), but that's just me.  If anyone wants to start this list for any game, by all means go for it. Crazyswordsman 00:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Spira
Just thought I'd bring it to the attention of anyone who wasn't aware that there's some folks who are proposing some rather radical changes to the Spira page. One of them comes off as disrespectful in my opinion (Nnfolz), because of how selective his responses are, and it seems to me he's pretty much decided on what he wants to do with the page and like he isn't willing to listen to what anyone else has to say, so... if you're at all interested, stop by. Ryu Kaze 21:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There's no reason to make it so personal. I don't agree with the proposals either but I believe they're made in good faith. >Gamemaker 21:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not making it personal, Game. As I said over there, I also think it's in good faith, but good faith does not equte to respectful, nor does it suggest that the proposals are good. I'm just bringing it to the attention of anyone who wants to weigh in on it. Ryu Kaze 21:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, to summarize the matter, they're basically proposing that Spira be made a navigation page for "Blitzball," "Mythology of Final Fantasy X", "Al Bhed language", and a new "List of Final Fantasy X locations" page when we already have a navbox at the bottom of each page that links all those pages together. Ryu Kaze 22:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Just to offer an update, the user Flooch has suggested we drop the backstory info on FFX, and just focus on making Spira serve as a location page altogether. In all honesty, despite how much I like that page, I have to agree with him. We're omitting blitzball, religion and language sections on the basis that we've got them adequately described elsewhere, so it is kind of a double-standard to leave a history section in there, loath as I am to admit it.


 * It really would be the only fair thing to do, and it would prevent potential ambiguity that results in these sorts of issues and it would work more toward making the page consistent with the other FF location pages. We also might want to change the name to "List of Final Fantasy X locations" and make "Spira" a redirect. For consistency's sake, and fairness' sake -- as well as sanity's sake -- this might be the right way to go, personal feelings aside.


 * By the way, if we do this, Vana'diel should probably get the same treatment and be renamed "List of Final Fantasy XI locations." Please offer your thoughts. Ryu Kaze 10:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The article is supposed to be named what most people will search for it as. Spira is very notable in that way, and renaming it "List of Final Fantasy X locations" doesn't attribute to that guideline. The same goes for Vana'diel. If those two were changed, that would leave Ivalice, which can't be called "List of Final Fantasy XII locations" because its the location of three games in the series. ~ Hibana 23:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that. At the least, though, we should continue to explore the other suggestions. See the Spira talk page for more. Ryu Kaze 23:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * To anyone who has more to add, it seems we're about ready to get into the actual process, so if there's anything else that anyone wants to add, please do so. Ryu Kaze 03:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, we've gone ahead and settled up the issue. The backstory info has been removed from Spira, with the "Eternal Calm"/"Spira in the present" info being added to Mythology of Final Fantasy X. The wording in Spira was then tightened into a past tense narrative with events occurring in X or X-2 being identified as such within each location's section. The page name "Spira" has been left intact, and the format of the Mythology page has been adapted to better suit its current status as being the page that bears the history of Spira. If there are any comments or criticisms of these changes, please either place them here, or on the appropriate talk page between the two pages that have been altered. Thanks. Ryu Kaze 22:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Ultimecia
When was Ultimecia nominated to be un-merged from List of Final Fantasy VIII characters? Or was it not? If not, some folks -- like Seancdaug -- will know this is probably a bad thing. If there was never a formal nomination, I recommend an immediate redirect. Ryu Kaze 15:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This unmerge was performed without concensous. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 16:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree. There's also some interesting information that I think could be worthy of preserving on the List, such as the several paragraphs about Ultimecia's motivations, which I never fully understood until now! Flooch 23:57, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Re-merged, although it was very well written and informative so the majority of the text was kept. Kudos to Ceptizzy and 69.247.20.10. Flooch 00:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

FFVIII story summary
Hey. Over on the Final Fantasy VIII page, Gamemaker, Deckiller and I discussed revising the story summary so as to allow the Lunar Cry page to better fit there when merged, and we've got a new story summary ready. Check out the page and see if it's to your liking. Ryu Kaze 18:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to say, but for me, it isn't. I sounds like you're plugging the game and using exaggerative language. This should be a section detailing events and not necessarily describing them. The use of words like "warmongering" for example. The other thing it does is introduce the characters, yet the article already does that earlier on. I'm sorry, you must have put some work into tuning this, but it feels so out of context to the article. Sounds nice though — Cua HL  ☺  20:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you be a little more specific, Cuahl? I think I follow what you mean by "exaggerative" language (flowery adjectives?), and there's a few points where I overdid that, maybe. I'll look through to see if there's any that seem unnecessary to me, and if you can point out some specific ones I miss, that would be helpful too.


 * I think I follow what you mean by "detailing events instead of describing" them, but I only do that -- I think -- with the part where Rinoa's left in space. Everything else is just rather matter of factly saying that these things occurred, seeing as how there's so many events that I'm not even touching on. Things that talk about Squall's changes are integral, however, to both the plot and an understanding of the game. That's as core an aspect -- intentionally so -- as the concept of sorceresses. When the point's even made in-game that "You're going to die, vanish from existance, unless you accept your need for others and believe in that" it's hard -- if not impossible -- to seperate that from a summary of the plot. This FF is unique in that we spend the entire game in Squall's head, making his transitions a consistently-lively part of everything that's happening.


 * But, anyway, take this, for instance:

"With their powerful bonds of friendship and love for one another serving as both their anchor to life and their strength, Squall and his friends unite to defeat Ultimecia once and for all, ending her reign of terror at last."


 * That's not just flowery talk here. That's actually describing the plot. The point is made before the characters attempt to go to Ultimecia's era that they have to focus on each other, on their love for one another, their need for each other, and imagine being together somewhere in order to continue to exist in Time Compression. That's why when they fall in battle with Ultimecia, they'll vanish if they don't get revived soon. Without the reciprocation of focus, the chain is broken where they're concerned, and they drift off, absorbed into Time Compression. In a story that takes love, fate and friendship beyond just being abstract concepts and makes them active forces in what's taking place, it's impossible to distinguish such wording from a summary of the plot.


 * By the way, what do you mean about the section introducing characters already introduced? The characters section comes after the story summary, and was set-up that way before I began editing the article. I'm not sure what you mean, as none of the character's names but Rinoa's pops up before the story summary.


 * Glad that it sounds good, at least, but could you give it another look and give me some more specific feedback, please? In the meantime, I'll see if I can trim some of the fluff. Thanks for the feedback, thus far. Ryu Kaze 21:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Deckiller's just informed me he's going to give it a quick run-through, so I'll hold off on doing anything until after he's done. Ryu Kaze 21:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I see where you're coming from. It's a good description, I'm not denying that, its just I feel it could be less flowery (as you said). For example, you said "With their powerful bonds of friendship and love for one another serving as both their anchor to life and their strength, Squall and his friends unite to defeat Ultimecia once and for all, ending her reign of terror at last.".. which could instead be Squall and friends defeat Ultimecia due to their powerful bonds of friendship and lover for one another providing an anchor to reality. I'm not very good at describing what I'm trying to say, but I hope you can see that my rewording is a little more.. matter of fact? I dunno, maybe I should just leave it up to the experts that can actually speak English :D — Cua HL  ☺  22:00, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm gonna read through it in a second. However, the key to the plot summary is to be succinct and describe major events, so while some emotional issues are key plot devices, we have to be careful that we don't explain too many minor events/give the major events excessive covereage. Deckiller 22:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, point taken, Cuahl. Something like that would work much better. See what you can make of it, Deck. Ryu Kaze 22:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * How does it look? Deckiller 23:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Very well done, man. There's just a few things, I'd change, mainly dealing with wording and breaking the penultimate paragraph in half. Ryu Kaze 23:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * To emphasise, it's a lot better like this. Much more what we really want. If it's okay, though, I'll tighten those few points I mentioned. Ryu Kaze 23:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah. I took care of the paragraph, though some of the wording could probably be fixed, I agree. You're the english major, I'm the 17 year old newbie writer :) Deckiller 23:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Give yourself more credit than that, man. XD I'd much rather have you as a colleague than some of the people I do work with. Ryu Kaze 23:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Lol, thanks ^_^. I'm just glad we have some great writers working for this project. Deckiller 23:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Count yourself among them. Alright, I've given it another sprucing. See what you make of it, guys. Ryu Kaze 23:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks great, I think we're set. Now all we have to do is cite some sources and fix the criticism section and we can self-nom this as a GA. Deckiller 00:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Perfect. Quality editing, guys :D — Cua HL  ☺  00:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Cuahl, and thanks again for your quality feedback. I'll try to go through and add references where needed and fix-up the Criticism section sometime soon. Still got to work on that Final Fantasy magic stuff. Ryu Kaze 00:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey guys, I might have to go underground again for the next day or so as I continue to get my life together. I'm going to be an adult (turning 18) next week, and therefore, I must get a job, finish up college issues, and so on. Deckiller 00:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Only for next week? You're lucky, some of us have to be an adult full-time. :D I jest. We all have our real-life things to deal with, so best wishes, and don't forget about us. Even just to say hi on the community talk page :P — Cua HL  ☺  00:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Edit: Haha, I just read your "clarification" edit. I was only joking, I assumed it might be your birthday. Best wishes for the day, whenever it may be :D *looks to WPFF Calendar, but remembers no one's birthday's on there* — Cua HL  ☺  01:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Lol, ^_^ thanks! Deckiller 02:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Good luck with all that, Deck, and -- take it from an adult -- always keep Kid Deck a part of you. Take care and see you around. Ryu Kaze 03:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)