Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink/Archive 15

Biscuit and Cookie: language category confusion!
As someone who has travelled the Atlantic far too often, I know the difference between the word Cookie and Biscuit. But as a European, I am confused by the lack of categorisation of biscuits under the Category:Cookies. As the main article on biscuit points out, even in North America a confectionery biscuit is a hard sweet product, over the softer cookie - yet we categorise them under one label. I came at this opportunity from looking at the article on Kraft Foods, and the brand of Lefèvre-Utile Biscuit Co.. In France, there is a famous biscuit called Petit beurre - we don't even have an article on it yet, here's the French version - and I see they have so many varieties of biscuit, they categorise their biscuits by French region! I am translating the French Petit beurre article into English, and having seen what they have in their biscuit category will attempt a few more articles. But it seems logical to me to separate the biscuits from the cookies in categorisation - everyone seems to accept they are different things, where ever we may be. Thoughts? Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 10:47, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Difficult, and I'd certainly disagree slightly with your rather dogmatic "everyone seems to accept they are different things, where ever we may be". Even here in Canada which, with its French and British heritage, you'd expect to know how to use the term 'biscuit' most 'sweet baked goods sold in packets, intended to be eaten as an accompaniment to a beverage of some sort' are called cookies, whether they be soft or hard. Sure, people know what the word biscuit means and would probably accept that they are somewhat different to a regular cookie, but they would probably only use the word to refer to the more austere and delicate forms. Here 'biscuit' is more a subset of 'cookie', rather than an entirely different product. Digestives and Hob Nobs, which to my UK-born mind are definitive biscuits, certainly come under the general mental banner of cookie if you are talking to a local. I think the problem that you'll run up against is one of where to draw the line. Delicate French fancies are one thing, the hearty Anglo-Saxon dunkable variety might cause some strife.  Pyrop e  14:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree with most of what you have said. My thought was that biscuit should be a sub-cat of cookie, not a standalone food thing. Just picking up on the "where to draw the line" issue, then the sweet products line should be drawn from the manufacturer/marketer position, eg: started in Europe, called a biscuit, its a biscuit; started in North America, called a cookie, its a cookie; Hob Nobs are marketed in the UK as soft cheewy biscuits = cookie! However, also into the "where do we draw the line" debate, how does a Hob Nob relate to a soft dough thing dunked in gravy to make soul food? The word Biscuit to my though would seem like a good "extensive" disambiguation page to separate articles (eg: Biscuit (sweet) as article/cat sub of cookie, Biscuit (soul food) as an article). Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 23:56, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The thing about having biscuit a sub-cat of cookies is the North American meaning is the scone-like thing that is popular in the Southern US. That is why biscuit is a separate case. This is mostly an English variation rule. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 02:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't understand the question.
 * Do you want a subcat under Cat:Cookies for hard cookies ("biscuits")? That seems unnecessary, given the limited number of articles currently in the cat.
 * Do you want articles like Digestive biscuit included in the cookies category? They should be.  That specific article is already listed there, and you can WP:BOLDly add more.
 * Or do you want something else? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:18, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * My proposal was that biscuit and cookie should be separated, and create a new Biscuit (sweet) category under the current Cookie category. Secondly, rewrite the current Biscuit article as an extensive disambiguation page, pointing out the difference between a biscuit (sweet), cookie and biscuit (dough). Picking up on the point of English variation, the venerable North American dictionary Merriam-Webster supports this separation with different entries for cookie and biscuit (sweet), neither of which points at the other. M-W are quite clear on them being different things, with a cookie being a risen cake product, while a biscuit is a baked or twice baked non-risen product. The biscuit (dough) we refer to is rightfully referred to by M-W as a Beaten biscuit. We seem to have hence mixed up in our own encyclopedia terms which should be rightfully separated. The best example I have found so far of our mix up (excuse the pun...) is the entry on Biscotti, which starts: In North America... and then goes on in the header to compound the regional language differences of cookie and biscuit, before coming back thankfully to explain that its an Italian cake! (ie: neither a biscuit or a cookie). As I have so far found six new entries on the French version of wikipedia, and now six new entries on the Italian version, all of which are technically biscuits, the lack of entries would seem to come secondary to being correct on an encyclopedic level. Simply, technically biscuits are not cookies, and nor are cookies biscuits - it is just our slack use of language and hence current categorisation. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 17:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * In my experience, most things called "cookies" in the US are not risen, or only very slightly risen. The classic Tolhouse Chocolate Chip Cookie, for example, is not risen. Many "cookies" in this sense do include a small amount of baking soda or baking powder, but not enough for more than slight rising I think. I would need to find and cite recipes to make this statement in an article of course, but i think "IME" is sufficinet for a talk page. DES (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

New article and proposed merge
In apparent response to this discussion, Biscuit (bread) was recently created. It seems to me that this should be merged into Biscuit, the main article on the topic. Discussion is now taking place at Talk:Biscuit in accord with the suggestions at WP:MERGE. DES (talk) 16:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Chivas Whiskies Subjected to Radiation?
The following link to the European Patent Registry refers ..........

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB2140455&F=0

A few years ago, a friend of mine contacted Chivas Brothers Pernod Ricard on this matter and got a "no comment" response. In particular, neither Chivas (or The Scotch Whisky Association) would address questions regarding any additional consumer health risks associated with whisky treated by this process

For whatever reason, Chivas clearly do not want this matter to be up in the public arena. If it is a legal, harmless and patented process then why keep consumers in the dark? This ia a matter of Public Health interest and consumers have a right (imho) to know of any non-standard or non-traditional processes carried out on goods to be consumed. Does anybody have more information on this matter?

Elginloone (talk) 12:38, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * UV treatment of food and beverage is very safe. Check out Ultraviolet germicidal irradiation and UV water disinfection for example. As a chemist, I can personally assure you that materials treated with UV do not have residual radioactivity. The UV may produce ozone at low levels or break down some compounds into other compounds, but neither of these would be toxic enough or in high enough concentration to cause any harm. UV treatment is not a new and cryptic procedure, and I don't think there is a consumer protection issue here at all. In the US this stuff is regulated, and I imagine it is elsewhere as well. It probably prevents a lot of infectious disease. Regards, PDCook (talk) 16:06, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * An interesting spot. Pdcook is perfectly correct, UV irradiation is no risk at all to human health, it's the NDMA that the UV system is designed to remove that is the carcinogen. I reckon the reason you are getting "no comment" from the industry is that needing to remove NDMA from their product rather suggests that either their water is contaminated with it, or that the water is otherwise contaminated and that they are having to chlorinate the water prior to use. This blows a big hole in one of the main pillars of the whisky temple: the pure, natural spring water that they (allgedly) manufacture it from.  Pyrop e  14:18, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Template question
When the template is set to "needs-infobox=yes" the category says "Foodservice articles needing infobox" is in red. Why is that? See Lee's Diner for the live situation. --DThomsen8 (talk) 22:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Because categories don't spring into existence automatically. You need to create a category in just the same way you create a regular page, and make sure that the category itself is properly categorised. Looks like someone created the option to use that perameter in the banner without actually creating the category they were assigning things to...  Pyrop e  23:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Anyone willing to create article for this food essay book?
I found a hilarious cook book written by Chris Fair in search for Iraqi cuisine some times ago. It includes cuisines of North Korea, and other countries that U.S. considers "the Axis of Evil". I would be appreciated if anyone takes to create the article for the book. Here are news on the book or the author. --Caspian blue 02:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Cuisines of the Axis of Evil and Other Irritating States


 * Done. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 16:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks!--Caspian blue 16:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Strawberry
Why is the nutritional info on the garden strawberry so much different than the normal nutritional info section? IAmTheCoinMan (talk) 02:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Because whomever added the nutrition information used a generic wiki-table instead of the nutritional value template. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 16:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Ark of Taste
I've added a list of about 800 foods to the Ark of Taste article. Ark of Taste is a catalogue of endangered foods from Slow Food International. Many of the foods listed are red linked. Some just need to be disambiguated, but others could use articles if anyone feels up to creating them. There are lots of interesting foods here: heirloom plants, rare breeds, strange foreign foods and the like. There's a category for the foods as well at Category:Ark of Taste foods. Gobonobo T C 12:42, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement
This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 03:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Tagging Errors
Hi there! I have removed the WikiProject Food and drink tag from Galactorrhea. This is a condition where breast milk is produced that is *not* associated with nursing, so it's not the kind of "milk" that would be used as food, not even by newborns. The article was under the category "Milk", so it was auto-tagged as per this request. I've removed the article from Category:Milk and put it in Category:Breast_milk instead, to help clarify. I noticed that the other articles in Category:Breast_milk have also been tagged, but since they deal with the kind of breast milk that is used as food by newborns, I think the tag is appropriate on those. Dracunculus (talk) 01:59, 23 January 2010 (UTC)


 * There was a bot autotagging that was very generous/inclusive with subjects which might be considered food. I have removed several in the past - it is no big deal :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:09, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Merger of the Caesar Barber Article into the Fast Food Article as per consensus
As per the previous consensus, I have merged Caesar Barber into Fast food. The consensus was reached ten months ago, so it was kind of overdue. Somebody might want to follow through and do any necessary cleanup. I left a redirect from Caesar Barber to Fast food. Safiel (talk) 01:53, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheese cutter
New article. Needs a photo and could use some tweaking and clarification I think... ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And references. PDCook (talk) 02:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, should it be merged with Cheese slicer? Seems like this is/could be a content fork, unless there is a distinction I'm not aware of. PDCook (talk) 02:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It isn't a fork, the cheese slicer is different from the cheese cutter. It is like the difference between a chef's knife and a cleaver. Furthermore, the bow style cheese cutter has a commercial version that is designed to cut large blocks of cheese into smaller blocks that are sold in retail at cheese shops. The cheese slicer is used specifically to slice blocks of cheese in to single serve pieces.--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 04:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification! PDCook (talk) 04:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I was wondering about the same issues. Thanks for the help in sorting them out. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:21, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Chop suey in novels
Would anyone like to contribute to the discussion on Talk:Chop suey about whether incidental mentions of a food in novels should be mentioned in the article? Thanks, --macrakis (talk) 05:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Gummi worms and Gummi bear
Someone created a Gummi worms article. It looks like in the past, variations of Gummi worms were redirected to Gummi bear. Should they be two separate articles or be merged? PDCook (talk) 17:06, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Those should be merged. Apart from a few sentences the entire content of the worms article actually refers to gummi candy in general, not specifically the worms. There is no evidence that the worms are more then just a morphological variant.  Pyrop e  17:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I proposed a merger. Discuss. PDCook (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Alternatively the merge could be to Gummy candies (should it be renamed gummy candy)? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:41, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm. You bring up a good point...it might make more sense for it to be merged into Gummy candies. However, someone who knows about the history of these candies might be able to indicate whether Gummy worms warrants a stand alone article. Anyone? PDCook (talk) 00:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Oyster sauce
There's a bizarre edit war going over at Oyster sauce, where a user is apparently insisting that oyster sauce was known in the West by 1815. The only problem is that the sauce in question was made from melted butter and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Chinese stuff! Keeping an eye on the article and/or any comments on the Talk page would be appreciated. Jpatokal (talk) 01:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Believe it or not the Oyster sauce of 1815 was made with Oysters!! CyrilThePig4 (talk) 17:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

food coloring
Can u put food coloring in the water for cut flowers? Just for looks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.223.100 (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, you can put anything in water at any time just for looks. If your asking if the petals will adopt the color of the food coloring, yes.174.3.98.236 (talk) 06:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Yeast
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found some concerns which you can see at Talk:Yeast/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Merger Proposed For Beers of the world List of beers Beer and breweries by country ‎
Someone took off my tags. I'll just post the proposal here.

For reference: The pages look like a content fork.174.3.98.236 (talk) 17:17, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Falafel
There is a big edit war going on over at the falafel page. Some editors are trying to use this page to push the notion that Israel 'stole' Arab cuisine. Other editors are trying to suppress any connection between falafel and Arab cuisine. And yet another editor is trying to remove anything controversial. I've been trying to maintain NPOV by including multiple positions (including controversial ones) based on reliable sources, but even material based on reliable sources is being deleted. I'd appreciate it if some new eyes could look things over here. --macrakis (talk) 21:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Vitamin C
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. You are being notified as this project's banner is on the talk page. I have found some concerns which you can see at Talk:Vitamin C/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Featured article candidates/McCormick Tribune Plaza & Ice Rink/archive1
Feel free to come comment at Featured article candidates/McCormick Tribune Plaza & Ice Rink/archive1.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Need help with an apple variety
A new article on the apple variety My Jewel needs help for the usual beefing up with references, demonstrating notability, etc. Help would be greatly appreciated. --A More Perfect Onion (talk) 17:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to add more information on Chicken meal article
I want to propose adding a different perspective on the Chicken Meal article. Currently, it shows the pros of having chicken meal in pet food. However, it omits the cons of it and doesn't discuss items about “containing 4D meats (diseased, disabled, dying, or dead prior to butchering), and nothing about waste products (e.g., restaurant waste, supermarket waste, etc.). I would be more than happy to add this information. Any objections? BCRNYC (talk) 22:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, as long as your additions appropriately cite reliable sources and maintain a neutral point of view. I noticed that the article is currently unreferenced, so improvements would be appreciated. Regards PDCook (talk) 23:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Hitlerszalonna
This article is up for deletion. Are their any WWII foodie buffs? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Fast food map
Thought this might be helpful. , the picture,. Thanks, Marasama (talk) 22:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Joose Calorie Count
Joose has more 841 calories from the alcholic content alone. I think it would be benificial to include that exact count in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.16.196.237 (talk) 05:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Burger King
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article following this request. You are being notified as your project's banner is on the article talk page. I have found some concerns which you can see at Talk:Burger King/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 03:48, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Park Grill AFD
Please come comment at Articles for deletion/Park Grill.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:11, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Another AFD
Articles for deletion/List of bar and grill restaurants. NVO (talk) 21:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Ham and Cancer Risk
I removed the section on cancer risk from the ham article, the rationale of which can be found in the discussion section. However, I thought it would be good to elicit the Food community's thoughts on this as well.

Cheers, Djma12 (talk) 23:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

College Project
Hello All, I am new to Wikipedia and as a part of a class project I have been assigned to write an article and have it reviewed. I am working on the article for Jana Skinny Water and it would be very helpful if some of you could give me feedback on my article and help me to make it better. Thank you for your support! Chelcal (talk) 14:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)