Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink/Archive 26

File:Diet vanilla coke original logo.jpg
File:Diet vanilla coke original logo.jpg has been nomianted for deletion -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 07:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Château Rauzan-Ségla 1993.jpg
image:Château Rauzan-Ségla 1993.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 01:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been featured
Portal tag changed from Food and drink to Medicine for the "Phenylacetic acid" talk page for reasons stated on that page. Tungstic (talk) 01:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

carrod salat
can anyoune make an article? http://via.sawd.ch/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3JidGguYXNpYS9hcnRpY2xlcy8yMDEyLzA4LzIxL2tvcmVhbl9jYXJyb3RfMTY0MDUuaHRtbA%3D%3D (Idot (talk) 11:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
 * Carrot salad? I am afraid to click on your link. Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Sairme
This article on a resort region/ bottled water product is nominated for deletion. Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

New articles
Very quiet here.. but if anyone wants to lend a hand I started articles on: Gracias. Candleabracadabra (talk) 00:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Tostilocos
 * Cueritos
 * Japanese peanuts

Capitalisation
Today's FA is Pisco Sour - both words capitalised - but it refers to a Whiskey sour (capitalised in the Pisco Sour article but not capitalised in its own article). Are there any guidelines for how these names ought to be capitalised? Colonies Chris (talk) 10:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:Common name is what covers this. I would say it should be Pisco sour. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 17:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe there had been local consensus at some point to put names of cocktails in title case, but I'm having trouble finding that discussion. Ibadibam (talk) 21:53, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Stefanos Olive Oil inside gift box.jpg
image:Stefanos Olive Oil inside gift box.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 07:07, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Suicide Bernard Loiseau & Michelin Guide
I like to have advice to quell an upcoming editwar. The conflict is about a section about the suicide of Bernard Loiseau and the role of the Michelin Guide. The discussion can be found here: Talk:Michelin_Guide The Banner talk 20:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The conflict is not about the point of view, but whether it should be mentioned at all in the section titled, "controversy". I could be wrong, but I'm getting the idea that this editor who has already edit-warred with me about this, just does not want the subject mentioned at all in the article. Please note that there is a reference to a book which was never removed in "Further Reading", and that up 'till the mention of the death and the implications involving the guide, were deleted from the article, that "Suicide..." was the first topic heading the list of "Controversy" section. Also, that when it was first deleted there was a request on the article talk page that it be restored until a consensus could be reached. It was not and no further discussion was held. I did not even see that when I added it to the article, it just seemed to me like something that should be there if talking about Michelin Guide controversy.Housewifehader (talk) 22:11, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Hershey's Cookies 'n' Creme Cereal.JPG
image:Hershey's Cookies 'n' Creme Cereal.JPG has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

""
The usage of is under discussion, see Talk:Imlek (company) -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

RM stuck
. There's a Vietnamese food titling RM stuck at Talk:Bun rieu, a bit of input from WP Foodies :) might unstick it either way. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

fat composition breakdown in food articles
It would be good if all edible food articles had a thorough fat composition breakdown somewhere.

The top of rice bran oil is a good example

Please consider adding trans fat content when they are found, even <0.5g /100g, as studies have found them to be the most harmful to man and should be avoided where possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.200.171.37 (talk) 05:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Fat composition is a property of the oils infobox. Other food articles may include the nutritional value template, and it would be great to get that template on more pages. If you can find sources for the nutritional information of various foods, please go ahead and edit the relevant articles to add that content. You can leave a comment on this page if you need some tips figuring out how to use the templates.
 * That said, know that Wikipedia does not provide medical or nutritional advice, so we want to keep it just to the facts. So while we can state the trans fat content of a food, and even say something like, "The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services recommends avoiding trans fats," and include a source like this, we can't simply say "Trans fats should be avoided!" without a source to back it up. Ibadibam (talk) 17:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Everything Tastes Better with Bacon - TFAR nomination
I've nominated Everything Tastes Better with Bacon at WP:TFAR for consideration for International Bacon Day.

More info at Today's featured article/requests.

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 19:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Lyonnaise cuisine
If anyone is up to the task, the article Lyonnaise cuisine could use some work. I've just finished copy-editing what was already placed there. It seems someone just took the French Wikipedia page, and threw it into Google translator without any knowledge of French (or English, maybe). I retranslated a bunch of it myself to make it more sensible, but I haven't transferred the references. There is also a large portion of the article which was not translated, so that, now, the present English article doesn't even list common Lyonnaise dishes. If anyone is handy with French, it would be nice if they'd continue the translation. RGloucester — 📬 21:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Al fresco dining
"Al fresco dining is eating outside (from the Spanish words "al fresco" = outside, at a fresh temperature)."

I don't know Spanish but I'm Italian and "al fresco" is used here too, so I'm not sure it comes from Spanish. Here are some links that say it's Italian:

The Free Dictionary: Alfresco

Wordreference: Fresco

About.com: Al Fresco Dining

However, I didn't find anything that say it's Spanish. In Italy, al fresco (where it's fresh) is not really used to say "dining outdoor", we use instead all'aperto (mangiare all'aperto), but we still use "al fresco" in related contexts (like vado fuori al fresco, I'm going outside where it's fresh), this is why I think it's italian.

--188.218.140.225 (talk) 17:29, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You appear to be correct, and I have updated the article accordingly. Thanks for pointing that out. Ibadibam (talk) 17:00, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Chocolate
FYI, there's a proposal to create a chocolate task force under WPFOOD, see WikiProject Council/Proposals/Chocolate Task Force -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:59, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Missing topics page
I have updated Missing topics about Food - Skysmith (talk) 10:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

File:Vanilla flavoured frijj.jpg
File:Vanilla flavoured frijj.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:50, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Main page & Project pages
This discussion was moved. Please join in the conversation over at the new location: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink/Main page layout discussion. &mdash; Will scrlt ( “Talk” ) 08:31, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

GAR
Apple, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * User:FutureTrillionaire: Thanks for the notification about the reassessment occurring. I've added the listing to the projects task page at WikiProject Food and drink/Open tasks/to do. Northamerica1000(talk) 22:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikiproject Food and Drink Newsletter - September 2013

 * Posted by Northamerica1000(talk) 02:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/five:am organic yoghurt
Dear food experts: This article has been sitting in the Afc for over two weeks. Would someone like to review it? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 22:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What does reviewing it entail? The references need to be formatted. It is a newish company. Is it notable (covered substantially in reliable independent sources)? Candleabracadabra (talk) 03:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Formatting of references isn't critical to being accepted, as that can always be done later. Determining if the references are reliable and if they show notability is something that maybe editors working a lot with food articles would be more able to assess. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 06:45, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Added a "title" attribute to template Food projects
Just a notice that I added the attribute "title" to the template. I want to include it on my userpage to make it easier to get where I want to go quickly, and I realized that "Related WikiProjects" was not the most logical name to appear on my userpage. I wanted to override that, but there was no way short of hacking the template, so I did, and now you don't have to. You're welcome. :-) &mdash; Will scrlt ( “Talk” ) 08:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:MIX and WP:BART
Hi. I know I have been out of this topic for... oh... a couple of years. I was just following some links over on en.books that link back into this WikiProject, and they were all broken. I'm trying to figure out where to relink them to, but I'm getting confused.

On en.books, we started a WikiProject there called Wikibooks:WikiProject Bartending. We set up a sister task force here called WikiProject Food and drink/Bartending Task Force. It was accessible under the shortcut of WP:BAR, which is now a disambiguation page (and I understand why, given the other more-well-known things also linked there). WP:BART was a shortcut to the Talk page under WP:BAR, but I see it now points directly to the task force page instead (and I'm fine with that change). This task force is listed on the WP:F&D main page under Related WikiProjects.

There used to be a full-fledged WikiProject for all mixed drinks. It was originally named "WikiProject Cocktails", but was later renamed "WikiProject Mixed Drinks". After participation levels dropped, it became a "task force" instead of a full-fledged WikiProject, and the name was changed to WikiProject Food and drink/Mixed Drinks Task Force (WP:MIX). On the current WP:F&D main page, I could find no mention of of this task force. The only way I located it was by typing in WP:MIX in the search box. Thankfully, that shortcut still works.

Was it the intention of the WP:F&D participants to do away with WP:MIX, probably by merging it into WP:BART? There were some subtle differences in scope between the two projects/task forces. WP:MIX was concerned with the drinks themselves, the garnishes, and the historical aspects of the drinks. WP:BART was more focused on the occupation (bartenders, cocktail waitressing/waitering, mixology, etc.) and the facilities (including significant bars and night clubs). I don't remember which one drinkware/glassware fell under, and the lines between the two were somewhat blurry at times. This was further confused by having different project names on different sister wikis for much the same topical areas. (This is similar to the parent project being called "WikiProject Food and drink" here and "WikiProject Food and Beverages" on Commons, and on WikiBooks the subject being split between the Cookbook and the Bartending Guide, which operate completely independently from each other).

I don't really see much point in maintaining separate task forces for WP:MIX and WP:BART here. At least not anymore. I'd be happy rolling it all under one name or the other. But which one?

If we roll it under Bartending, there are several non-alcoholic mixed drinks that would become somewhat out-of-scope (like a non-fat soy latte, punch (mixed drink), etc.). While they may be perfectly valid mixed drinks, they aren't commonly associated with bars.

If we roll it under Mixed Drinks, then bartenders, bars, night clubs, and the professions fall out of scope.

Maybe we rename and merge? Something like (and I hate the length of these): Bartending and Mixed Drinks Task Force (WP:BAMDTF? WP:BAMD? WP:BMD?) or Mixed Drinks and Bartending Task Force(WP:MDABTF? WP:MDAB? WP:MDB?) Or maybe we can come up with some other cute (and shorter) name that encompasses all of it?

Name changes may require updating several templates (stubs, talk page headers, linking templates, navboxes, infoboxes, and probably more). It's not something to do on a whim.

On the other hand, maybe we just keep both task forces as-is. It certainly would be the easier option. However, if we do that, let's be sure to add WP:MIX back into the lists of Related WikiProjects and give it equal footing with WP:BART.

While we figure all of this out, I'm just going to point WikiBooks links to either WikiProject Food and drink/Mixed Drinks Task Force or WikiProject Food and drink/Bartending Task Force, whichever seems the most appropriate. Then we can redirect those to the most logical place down the road if we need to. Even after any move, we probably should keep those pages in place as landing pages for interwiki links.

I'd appreciate everyone's feedback and suggestions on how to proceed. &mdash; Will scrlt ( “Talk” ) 20:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Well Will, All of the various drink Task Torces (Soft Drinks WP:Soda, Coffee & Tea WP:C&T, and Mixed Drinks WP:Mix) had all but died and were merged into what is supposed to be the Drinks Task Force (WP:Drink) with the three subjects as working groups within WP:Drinks. I have been meaning to combine the pages into a single, unified set of pages but you were so prolific with WP:Mix that the task is rather overwhelming. I intended to address that issue after the the site reset. I have started something at WikiProject Food and drink/Taskforces, but it is still in its infancy. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Prolific", eh? *smirk* That's a nice way of saying "you got carried away and wasted a lot of time, buddy!" Which, of course, is true. Seriously, though, what about merging mixed drinks and bartending together and all the other softer drinks into another one? My rationale (besides perhaps saving you some work) is that on Wikibooks (where I'm trying to get a grip on another decaying and sprawling nearly abandoned project), we have the Bartending Guide and the Cookbook. They are quite separate in their areas and their membership. They would align pretty well with the division I mentioned, though. I have the feeling we might get some fanatical tea drinkers who would not mind helping out with milk and maybe soda pop, and we might have some gung-ho beer guzzlers who would help out with other alcoholic mixed drinks, but they might each turn up their noses at the other end of the spectrum. (Yes, I'm being silly with my characterizations, but there may be some truth to those stereotypes based on my past experiences with editors). If nothing else, it would turn an eventual merge into a two-stage process. Consolidate the softer drinks into one, and the harder drinks into another. Then, if after a year or so, if there's still no progress, collapse them together. Sound like a reasonable compromise? After all, why do today what you can put off until next year? *grin* (My odd sense of humor tells me it's past time for bed now.) &mdash; Will scrlt ( “Talk” ) 10:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I suggest WP:Mixology as a new task force or working group to cover the cocktails and bartending field as they are rather tied together. All we need is some flair. If the winos, beer guzzlers and alcoholics want to help, than so much the better. That is all... --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 04:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * grin* The stereotypes we are perpetuating here. LOL. Anyway, mixology is a specific sub-section of bartending (although you don't have to be a bartender to be a mixologist), so that would probably be a step in narrowing down the focus instead of expanding it. Also, I think it is limited to alcoholic beverages, and currently WP:MIX covers all mixed drinks, including non-alcoholic ones (the only type I drink).
 * I'm kind of leaning toward either Bartending (already set-up and exists with the same name on a sister project, both of which are plusses in my eyes). It covers the drinks (alcoholic obviously but also non-alc mixed drinks, even coffee could be covered [baristas]), the facilities, the personalities, the drinkware, and the occupation. Some of that really strays outside of the areas of WP:F&D, so it's more of a Venn diagram showing two overlapping sets of articles, with the drinks and dishware being the overlapping portion. That makes for a good reason to split it off into a separate TF/Project, but still maintain its close ties with WP:F&D. WP:Foodservice (which already exists as a TF) would be another possibility, expanding beyond just drinks and bars and into the overall service and sales of food and drinks. I would be okay with that, too. It could cover chefs, restaurants, fast food, safety, and regulations. Probably roll the Pubs TF into there, too. In effect, you would have the professions involving food and drinks, and you would have the food and drinks themselves. It's a logical way to split up the large topic. We'd probably need to bring that up with the participants of the specific TFs and associated child projects before making such a large-scale change. But, overall, I think it might be a good way to stir things up a bit and generate new interest. Or else piss off a lot of people and make them leave. Whoops! :-) &mdash; Will  scrlt ( Talk | com | b:en | meta )  05:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Lets not forget to add WP:Pubs to the mix. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 23:19, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't. ;-) I just now highlighted it above to make it stand out a bit more. This thread is getting a bit long and wordy, so it's no wonder you didn't see it. &mdash; Will  scrlt ( Talk | com | b:en | meta )  13:10, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

WikiBooks WikiProject Bartending and Wikimedia Commons WikiProject Food and Beverages
Hi everyone! If you rarely venture outside of the English Wikipedia (or en.wiki), then you are missing some other great resources. There are two WikiProjects related to this one on our sister sites.

The first is on the English Wikibooks (or en.books), and it is called Wikibooks:WikiProject Bartending. It is a direct sibling of our own Bartending Task Force. Please take a look at the new structure for the List of cocktails in the Wikibooks Bartending Guide. That page used to be just a dumping ground for cocktail recipes from en.wiki. It's starting to turn into a viable resource on its own. If you want to help convert the free-form cocktail entries that fill that page into something more attractive and orderly, I'd love the help.

The other project is probably of more interest to more people. It's the WikiProject Food and Beverages. COM:F&B covers all the same topical areas that we do. The difference is that instead of working on improving and organizing articles, on the Wikimedia Commons, we organize media (images, videos, etc.) and try to find new free media that will be useful here on Wikipedia and other WMF sites. Your help there would be really appreciated, too.

Please be aware that the culture and attitudes on most wikis outside of en.wiki is much more laid back. The rules are slightly different, too. We can do some things here, but not there, and vice-versa. Feel free to ask me questions if you have any.

If you know of any other closely related non-en.wiki projects with which we should be working closely, please let us know. That includes Wikipedia in other languages, too. There's a lot we can learn from one another, and a lot of work to get done. Many hands make light work. :-) &mdash; Will scrlt ( “Talk” ) 02:06, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the notifications about the other projects! Northamerica1000(talk) 03:45, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

File:Aluminium-can-white.jpg
File:Aluminium-can-white.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 08:07, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

New food and drink articles
A new bot-assisted list for new food and drink articles has been created at User:AlexNewArtBot/FoodDrinkSearchResult. The bot has not updated the list yet. After this occurs, an idea is to transclude the list into a F&D project page, such as below the manually-listed new articles. Northamerica1000(talk) 05:14, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please update the bot subscription page under the Tools page.--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 07:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅. Northamerica1000(talk) 02:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Éclair
See talk:éclair (pastry) for a discussion on the name of the article -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 03:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Eurocrem packages.jpg
image:Eurocrem packages.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 05:59, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Food hall
How should the subject of food halls be treated? Is there anything to distinguish them from food courts? Candleabracadabra (talk) 00:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * They sort of combine aspects of supermarkets and cafeterias. I think they're distinguished from food courts in that food courts usually host multiple vendors, and food halls are a single vendor with multiple stations. Food halls also seem to usually be a department of a department store, while food courts are run by the property manager of a mall or building, or by an independent concessionaire. Ibadibam (talk) 22:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Bahamian cuisine
Happy to have help with this new article. I also think articles would be good to have on:


 * Goombay smash (there is also a Goombay marmalade). There is an existing article on Goombay..
 * Nassau Royale
 * Conch soup
 * Conch fritters
 * Cracked conch
 * Creole sauce
 * Old Sour

If these subject are covered in existing articles, redirects might also be worth considering. Candleabracadabra (talk) 04:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This source has some basic information on a couple of the items listed above. Candleabracadabra (talk) 04:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Candleabracadabra: Thanks for creating the new Bahamian cuisine article, and for your efforts to expand the encyclopedia's coverage of national cuisines. Northamerica1000(talk) 14:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:Baseball foods
Category:Baseball foods, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Liz Read! <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 12:51, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

File:Queen's Taste, English Quality Biscuits, George Weston Limited, ca 1922.jpg
File:Queen's Taste, English Quality Biscuits, George Weston Limited, ca 1922.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.249.39 (talk) 06:16, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Deletion nominations
FYI, PUF deletion nominations and speedy deletion nominations are not posted as part of Article Alerts. If you compared what I posted with what's actually listed by the bot, you'd have noticed they don't appear on the bot produced list. If you wish the Article Alerts bot to function more efficiently, please add the WPFOOD banner to all material which you wish to be alerted to, as it will not inform you of deletion nominations for untagged pages (like files, which seem to not have WPFOOD banners atttached for the most part; or templates or categories) -- 70.24.249.39 (talk) 22:24, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Obesity/U.S. Centricity
Why is this listed as a negative health effect for every food? Not everyone in the world is concerned about obesity. Very U.S. centric. USDA nutrition facts and references are also everywhere. Example: USDA beef grading has its own section in the beef article but other grading systems don't. It would be good to mention the Japanese beef grading system. Many articles on generic foods shouldn't even have specific USDA nutrition facts as different variations will have different nutrition facts. ChocoBeast (talk) 03:05, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If you feel that way, then add some of the international stuff. BTW, there are obesity problems in many western nations, so that isn't a US only thing. And with the USDA nutritional standards being used in many articles, it is simply the largest English language-based organization of its kind. There are several articles that use the Australian, British, Canadian or E.U. nutritional information. --<span style="font-family:lucida sans, sans-serif;">Jeremy <small style="font-size:85%;">(blah blah • I did it!) 07:46, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Australian Chinese food
The Australian variety of Chinese food deserves a page. Similar to American but it needs to be done.Sir Langan (talk) 06:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Amish cuisine
Is anyone interested in adding a section to the Amish article on food and cuisine then breaking out a separate article on the subject? I was surprised that this subject isn't covered??? Seems worth doing. I'd be happy to help. Candleabracadabra (talk) 19:20, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Organizationally speaking, it might be better suited as a subsection of Amish way of life. Most of what is associated with the Amish is one and the same with the cuisine of the Pennsylvania Dutch. For what it's worth, this Mennonite author asserts that Amish cuisine is not generally distinct from traditional American cuisine. Indeed, this article describes Amish communities in different regions mostly taking part in local cuisines. In that case, perhaps the subject is really defined as the eating habits, not the cuisine, of the Amish. Ibadibam (talk) 21:11, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting points. Thanks. I think I will start with a short section in the Amish article. As there are many amish food stores, there is also the influence and significance in wider American culture to consider. As you note, many of the products are part of Americana traditions. Not sure if there are unique specialties or if the cuisine just reflects the more traditional preparation and cooking methods? We shall see. I will go be what's in the literature covering the subject. :) Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I did find Cuisine of the Pennsylvania Dutch which seems pretty closely related? Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:20, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The Amish (and many other Mennonite groups) are a subset of the Pennsylvania Dutch. The Amish are a religious community; Pennsylvania Dutch is an ethnicity. One of the important questions in this line of research is whether there is a cuisine associated with the religious community that is distinct from that of the ethnic group. Good luck, and beware the spurious, half-researched claims of cookbook writers! Ibadibam (talk) 23:19, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

The Scarecrow (short film)
Project members are welcome to come assist with the expansion of The Scarecrow (short film), a recently-released animated short film and advertisement about food that has received quite a bit of press (see talk page for sources). Any assistance is much appreciated! -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:06, 26 September 2013 (UTC)