Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink/Archive 9

Christmas task force/DYK Christmas 2008
Christmas task force/DYK Christmas 2008 is looking for new and 5X expanded articles to post on the Main Page for December 25th. Food plays a major part in Christmas. Please consider writing a new Christmas related food/drink article, expanding one of the articles in Category:Christmas food, or picking one from suggested articles to expand. The steps on how to participate are at steps. Thanks. -- Suntag  ☼  02:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Renaming Georgian cuisine
Please join the discussion on Talk:Georgian (country) cuisine in an attempt to rename the awkwardly worded Georgian (country) cuisine to the simpler and more logical Georgian cuisine. --Zlerman (talk) 03:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I have also begun a discussion on these additional articles that also have need to be moved per naming convention:
 * Cuisine of India to Indian cuisine, discussion is here Move has been performed.
 * Cuisine of Burma to Burmese cuisine, discussion is here
 * Cuisine of Cambodia to Cambodian cuisine, discussion is here
 * Cuisine of the Republic of Macedonia to Macedonian cuisine, discussion is here Request has been withdrawn due to consensus for keeping current structure.

There are about ten more that I will be bring forward sometime in the next thirty days. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 05:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Canvassing support for article moves
(posted by User:Paxse and removed from discussion page of proposing editor)

Apparently, the naming conventions for cuisine articles are an extremely important issue for you. However, I really think that your behaviour over this article renaming is getting a little out of hand. Canvassing support for your position by posting messages on the talk pages of those who have supported your position in the past is frowned upon on Wikipedia. This kind of votestacking is contrary to policy, see WP:CANVAS. Developing consensus doesn't just mean the consensus that you want. What you have been attempting to do on the cuisine article pages and at WP:RM is attempting to WP:GAME the system. This is disruptive and not conducive to the co-operative atmosphere. A look at various naming convention policy pages show that you have been pursuing this agenda in various fora since at least August this year. Significantly, no clear consensus has ever emerged in any of these discussions - not even in the Food and Drink Wikiproject, where you are very active.

It's clear from your contributions that you are a very valuable contributor to the project. You have done excellent work on many articles particularly related to food and drink. As someone who has read the Burger King article, I personally appreciate your hard work to make that article such an interesting and informative read.

Unfortunately, something seems to have changed. Judging by your recent edit history you have become somewhat fixated on the issue of naming for national cuisine articles. The move logs show that you have personally moved 30+ national cuisine articles in the last week to follow your preferred naming convention. Presumably these were little watched articles where you experienced no immediate opposition to your proposed changes. Currently, you are aggressively arguing, canvassing and using misleading edit summaries to achieve the renaming of another half a dozen articles. This is not how consensus is developed. At a bare minimum, I am politely requesting that you immediately stop canvassing inputs only from editors who support your position on renaming these articles. Badagnani (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Who did he canvass to? This whole project started in WikiProject Food and drink and at Food and drink article guideline where the topics have been discussed and debated.  Also, posting this comment from someone's personal talk page seems an awful lot like harassment Badagnani.--Chef Tanner (talk) 18:45, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The dozens of unilateral, undiscussed page moves without prior consensus being sought or obtained are disturbing, as is the canvassing (complete with insults about various "favorite editors," etc.). Did you not notice that? We need to go through our normal channels rather than see what we've just seen (dozens of unilateral page moves, as described above by User:Paxse). Regarding canvassing, let's ask User:Paxse. Badagnani (talk) 18:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Please goto the links I placed where the naming conventions have been discussed, I believe you were even part of it at one point. It is not YOUR place to take information from Jeremy's personal talk page and post it here, and (cough,cough) canvas all the cuisine articles with this improperly trolled comment.  Please remove all of these comments from the pages you added them to as they are a violation of Wikipedia principles.--Chef Tanner (talk) 18:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm very happy for Badagnani to post my polite request to Jerem43 elsewhere. I don't consider it trolling and I don't want it reverted, thank you. This situation needs more eyes. I'm extremely busy on the ACC toolserver at the moment - see why at WP:AN - and don't have time to respond properly to a flurry of messages and accusations. To understand my concerns, I'd suggest reading WP:CANVAS on votestacking and examining Jerem43's edits on the 5th and 6th of December. I'll try to reply in detail tomorrow. Cheers, Paxse (talk) 20:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting that I was not canvassed, in that case. And the uncalled-for, insulting reference remains on your own discussion page, without any protest from you that such a comment is out of line, un-Wikipedian, etc. That itself speaks volumes, as with the earlier comment about my being a "dog" left on your Discussion page, and again without any protest from you. Badagnani (talk) 18:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but do not twist this into being about me, this is about a Wikipedia policy you are violating by posting this statement here.--Chef Tanner (talk) 19:43, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You had already commented, why would I need to notify you? --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 19:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

If the user had addressed the quite reasonable comments from User:Paxse in a sincere manner rather than simply blanking them from his talk page, your above proposal (to remove them from this page) would be reasonable. In fact, it would not have been necessary to post User:Paxse's discussion here in the first place. Badagnani (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Huh? Blanking his talk page? What are you talking about. You and he began a discussion on the WP:RM page, disrupting it - I left you a note to take your opinions to the proper location and you still went on in violation of the page's rules. I was not the only one to remove your improperly located discussion. Once The conversation had resumed in the proper location, I did reply with an exact quote from the policy stated. Paxes' reply was irresponsible and incorrect as he ignored the Caveats section and only chose to use the part supporting his argument, ignoring the whole policy.


 * I have only notified people who have commented in similar discussions to join this conversation, adding neutral notifications to everyone who had not commented on this discussion. Since most of these discussions only have one oppose on these discussions, I cannot notify any one else. I have also placed this discussion on the WP:FOOD page to notify the project members of this discussion. Please do not again ascribe thoughts to my actions that you have no knowledge of.


 * As to my edit history, I often start a specific project, such as, and work on that for several days or weeks until such a time that there is a uniformity on all related articles, including templates, categorization and naming. I have also done this with the various Food & Drink child project homepages, the Food & Drink tagging project and others. This is my latest endeavor. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 18:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

And, again, the highly insulting reference to another long-time, productive editor contained in one such notice is not addressed. Badagnani (talk) 19:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Badagnani, let's not make this personal. If you want to notify people about this discussion in a neutral manner to bring wider attention to this discussion please do so. Perhaps a notice on the relevant country pages would be helpful? There is no reason to believe Jerem43 wasn't acting in good faith. It's helpful to bring people into discussions and I appreciate his efforts in that regard. Our focus is best kept on the issue at hand. I would like a clearer explanation of why you are opposed to instituting a common naming convention on these articles. Which ones are you opposed to changing and why? What is wrong with naming them in a similar way? (also posted in Cambodia cuisine article).ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

As I have stated, you are the only oppose on all of these discussion. If that is the case how can I notify others with the same opinion as you? That is why I placed the notification on the front page of the project. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 19:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Per a request of a neutral party, I am removing my last statement as it could be taken as inflammatory. I allowed past interactions with Badagnani color my commentary. However I do believe that his accusations are misplaced and his argument is faulty for the reason I have posted. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 01:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Where is the highly insulting reference to you? Productive editor? (o.O) I come here because I'm one of this project members, and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Badagnani‎ informs this.--Caspian blue 00:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Kishka (food)
A radical change in scope is being proposed for this article. Would someone please take a look at the article and talk, and add an opinion? —Michael Z. 2008-12-04 17:09 z 
 * As an outcome of heated discussions and back-and-forth edits during the whole day of 5 December 2008 (see Talk:Kishka (food)), essentially all the information included in the "stable" version of the article prior to 2 December 2008 now appears in two separate articles: Kishka (food) for the Jewish flour-based accompaniment to cholent and Kaszanka (Kiszka) for the Polish blood sausage. The two articles are cross-linked and kiszka is explicitly mentioned in a separate paragraph in kishka (food). The only thing that has been omitted from the original version is the humorous reference to "Who stole the kishka?". --Zlerman (talk) 03:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a very bad outcome and it has nothing to with consensus or the citations. Kishka is an Eastern European word for guts and as such it has been used to refer to various sausages. The kishka article, which had been inclusive for 18 months, has now been ethnically cleansed of information apart from the Jewish version. This is disturbing indeed on a variety of levels. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I'm saying it has nothing to do with citations, because there are not citations to support kishka being unique to Jewish food and lots of sources demonstrating the Jewish food is one type of kishka. Even the dictionary definition on the internet is surrounded by adds for Polish kishka, not to mention the song, etc, etc, etc. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For the benefit of the readers of this page, I would like to reproduce some excerpts from Talk:Kishka (food) in response to the above comment by ChildofMidnight. The gist of these excerpts is that (i) the flour-based kishka/kishke is identified as a Jewish food in dictionaries and the literature and (ii) there in fact exist two entirely different foods with similarly sounding names (the Polish blood sausage kiszka, properly called kaszanka, and the Jewish kishka/kishke).
 * (1) The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (3rd ed., 1992, 4th edition 2006), cited as reference 1 in Kishka (food): kishke, also kishka: See derma (2). [Yiddish, from Russian kishka, intestine]; and then derma(2): Beef casing stuffed with a seasoned mixture of matzo meal or flour, onion, and suet, prepared by boiling, then roasting. Also called kishke, stuffed derma [Possibly Yiddish etc.]. Note the connotation of matzo meal.


 * (2) The Random House Unabridged Dictionary (2006), also cited as reference 1 in Kishka (food): Kishke, also kishka: Also called stuffed derma.  Jewish Cookery. a beef or fowl intestine stuffed with a mixture, as of flour, fat, onion, and seasonings, and roasted.


 * (3) Oxford English Dictionary (electronic edition) gives 9 quotations for kishka, all referring to kishka in Jewish cooking and Jewish life. The last quote from 1972 (Listener 16 Mar. 341/3): "Kishkeh vaguely resembles a kosher haggis..stuffed with a mixture of flour meal, grated onion and fat."


 * Based on these three authoritative sources, it seems to me that the weight of the evidence in dictionaries and published literature is that "kishka" or "kishke" is actually identified with a Jewish dish.


 * (4) Dictionary of American Regional English (p. 228, Harvard University Press, ISBN 0674205197, cited under "External links" in Kishka (food)) has two separate entries for this dish: one for the blood sausage (which includes the Polish kiszka), one for the Jewish flour-based kishke.


 * (5) Finally, despite the similarly sounding names (both the Polish kiszka and the Jewish kishka derive from the Slavic for "intenstine"), we have two entirely different dishes—different in terms of composition, uses, consumption practices, and ethnic origin. These two different foods are now treated in two different articles: one for Kiszka, the Polish blood sausage, one for Kishka (food), the Jewish flour-based accompaniment to the cholent. Proper cross-links and cross-references are included in both articles, and proper dabs exist. None of the essential information has been lost in the transition from what ChildofMidnight calls the inclusive version to the new two-article version. --Zlerman (talk) 02:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to keep it very simple. Kishka is an Eastern European word that means gut or intestine. It's used to refer to sausages. The Jewish kishke version, shocker of shockers, contains no pork or blood (see articles for kosher and kashrut). A couple of Jewish Wikipedians weren't happy that the kishke article included mention of Polish kishkas that include pork and blood, so they went ahead and took all of that information out and made the article solely about the Jewish kishke. All of his sources indicate it's a Slavic word for gut or intestine. All of the sources say it's an intestine stuffed with meat (of various types), a filler (of various types) in a casing (of various types). The Jewish version for example can use chicken or beef casing (but no pork! duh). It's not surprising that there are slightly different versions of the word in different countries with different languages, including Yiddish. The words are all very similar however, just as the sausages are similar. One of the sources he's claiming supports his argument was actually produced by a good faith editor to show that kishka does not refer only to the Jewish sausage (which had its own section and no one is arguing againt including). It was provided to Zlerman after he and another editor scrubbed the article. It talks extensively about Polish kishka. There's a famous Polka song "who stole the Kishka". If you search kishka or even look it up in the online dictionaries you will see that there are adds for Polish kishka. Kaszanka is a blood sausage, which is one kind of kishka, it's not the same thing as all kishkas and it's outrageous to pretend that everyone elses version of kishka belongs in that article so the kishka article can only be about a Jewish sausage. I hope this explanation is helpful. The "external link", which they put there because it disputes their entire argument, is the best source on the topic so far and makes plain that kishke is a popular and common Polish sausage as well as a VERY SIMILAR Jewish sausage with ingredients that follow Jewish dietary restrictions. The article reflected these sources. Now it doesn't. It's that simple. Do your own research. I'm tired of arguing with someone who distorts sources and ignores reasonable requests. It's inappropriate to support ethnically cleansing articles. Other editors have tried to work collaboratively and cooperatively to address your concerns. Because pork and blood are offensive to Jewish people doesn't mean you can censor the kishkes of other cultures. Your actions are disrespectful to people of other religions that do not object to these ingredients. Furthermore, no one has objected to you making a Jewish kishke article. Please stop abusing the tolerance and good faith of other editors and let your conscience be your guide. It's time to stop the charade and to do the right thing. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

See:, and ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * From the above evidence, I vote to restore the text about other forms of this food that was deleted from the article. Badagnani (talk) 23:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I vote to have two articles for two different foods, as set out in all my posts above. Lumping them together is a falsehood. Every single source in the article states that it is a traditional Jewish dish, and no references have been provided to the contrary. The whole attempt to claim that this is "ethnic cleansing" is idiotic.--Gilabrand (talk) 05:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Great. So restore the article that was there. We'll move it to make way for a disambiguation page. And you can copy the version you've created, over to the new Kosher kishka article (at a title of your choosing). I have a great source you can add too with some itneresting information I found.ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please note that we already have two articles -- kiszka and kishka (food) -- with all the relevant dabs in place. No further action is needed in my view. --Zlerman (talk) 06:35, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Please note that we never had two kishka articles until now (the above link is to one type of kishka the ever popular kaszanka blood sausage). I just made and disambiguated them. I hope we can put the "Great Sausage War of 2008" behind us. I included some comments on needed article improvements on both article talk pages for anyone who wants to contribute. Shalom.ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The article looks good now, with all the various kishkas/kishkes covered. Badagnani (talk) 23:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Spices
Template:Spices has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 09:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Herbs
Template:Herbs has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 09:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Herb and spice mixtures
Template:Herb and spice mixtures has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 09:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Mexican cuisine
Mexican cuisine should be part of this project, too. -- MISTER ALCOHOL  TC 04:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I checked, it is already tagged as part of the project.--Chef Tanner (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Cheese on toast → Cheese on Toast
Don't know what to do with this redirect regarding history. Please see Redirects for discussion/Log/2008 December 14. Simply south not SS, sorry 11:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Armenian cuisine: boraki and boeregs
I need independent expert confirmation that "Boraki (Armenian: Բորակի) are a kind of Armenian fried pelmeni" (see Dumpling) and that they are thus different from boeregs (as described also in Armenian cuisine). Any help with the terminology will be much appreciated. --Zlerman (talk) 08:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

List of cuisines
I just revamped this and would like for people to please take a look at it. I need the following help:


 * 1) Check to see if I missed any;
 * 2) How is the lay out?
 * 3) Should historical cuisine articles be separated from the main body like they are now?
 * 4) Could some on please try to write a better opening?
 * 5) Please review the section leads, they need some work.
 * 6) If there is anyone who is an expert in Asian cuisines, could you please take a stab at the leads in the Asian cuisine sections?
 * 7) Same for the European sections.

I want to get this as a featured list and asking for all to help contribute.

Thanks,

--Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 10:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Template boxes such as Template:National Anthems of Europe or Template:National Anthems of South America would be nice to group the cuisines by continent. Badagnani (talk) 10:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm no expert, but looking at other featured lists and the requirements, I think you need a comprehensive lead section in addition to the section leads. In addition, the section headings for Africa, Asia, China, the Middle East, Europe, etc. are all unreferenced. Cheers, Intothewoods29 (talk) 10:49, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Egg Toddy and Lapte de pasăre
Quite by chance, I have noticed that the article Egg Toddy has just one line on egg toddy the drink: this is the first line in the article. The rest is devoted to the Romanian dessert Lapte de pasăre, which somehow has been moved to Egg Toddy and in the process became "a very popular drink in Romania and Moldova" (sic!), losing its original identity as a dessert. Now, if one reads the description of Lapte de pasăre in Egg Toddy, one is bound to notice that Lapte de pasăre is actually Floating island (dessert). Further support of this contention can be found here and here. Therefore, Lapte de pasăre has to be removed from Egg Toddy and placed (as a variant) in Floating island (dessert). , but preferably without losing the long history of Lapte de pasăre that now sits in Egg Toddy. After this merge/move, Then a proper article about Egg toddy (drink) has to be written (or perhaps Egg toddy can be merged with Eggnog or deleted altogether). I do not know how to merge Lapte de pasăre into Floating island (dessert) with its history. Assuming that other editors agree with this analysis, can someone help? Thank you. --Zlerman (talk) 05:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC).

Text updated with strikeout to reflect things done. --Zlerman (talk) 08:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Hickory Farms
Can I please have some help expanding Hickory Farms? There are plenty of sources out there, and the article is in desperate need of expansion. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 05:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Brix - wrong tag
While Brix degrees indicate sweetness, measurement or testing would be better categories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.37.210 (talk) 19:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Edible protein per unit area of land needs your help
Edible protein per unit area of land seems like a potentially useful article, but has a number of problems. (1) Has been tagged "needs additional citations for verification" since July 2008. (2) Various other concerns mentioned on the article's Talk page. Can anyone here improve this? I will not be working on this article myself. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 07:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Major changes to Gratin article
A lot of sections have been cut out of this article. Should there be a separate Potato gratin /Potatoes gratiné/ pommes de terre au gratin/ potato bake / Janssons frestelse article? And what about gratin dauphinois, pommes de terre dauphinoises or potatoes dauphinoises? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:52, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing there is some sarcasm in there, the term gratin itself shouldn't be an encyclopedia article, it should be in the Wikidictionary, the potato dishes should be in Wikipedia.--Chef Tanner (talk) 14:29, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I just saw a lot of content get removed, and while the new article version is clear and streamlined, I didn't see articles for some of the sections and topics removed, so I was wondering what others thought. I agree the other topics are notable, but I can't say whether they should be in separate articles or not. I think they should at least be mentioned and linked to from gratin. There is now a discussion/ debate on the gratin talk page, so I suppose we should participate further there on what should and shouldn't be included in the gratin article. And it looks like gratin dauphinois and Lyonnaise potatoes have their own articles, but I don't know about the potato dish mentioned above in its various names and regional incarnations. Is it the same as dauphinois? I'm more of a sweet potato guy myself. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah sorry, pommes de terre is French for potato (literally translates as apple of the Earth), so potato gratin, potatoes gratine, and pommes de terre au gratin are all the exact same dish as is gratin dauphinois. Gratin dauphinois is a specific rendition of the dish, there are a number of regional variations of the dish depending on which part of France you go to based upon the cheese produced in the region, such as Gratin Lyonnaise would be from the Lyon region of France.  I'll come over and participate on the article discussion.--Chef Tanner (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Waffle trim
In a similar manner as the above content removal, the waffle article has had a lot of information taken out. I see there is a potato waffle article, but should the waffle article at least link to it now that the information on that type of "waffle" is not included? Also, mention of gaufret and belgian terminology/ regionalisms for waffles were removed. Furthermore, I see that frozen waffles such as Eggo were once included in the article, but I don't see them even mentioned in the article now. This seems strange to me as I suspect the number of instant frozen waffles sold in the U.S. is huge. There's a discussion of the recent edits on the article's talk page, and I'd be interested in the thoughts and suggestions of anyone who care to weigh in. That's probably the best place for the discussion. Happy Holidays, and good eating! ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Whisky Task force?
I see there is a Wine TF and a Beer TF how about a Whisky or Spirits TF?
 * Cabe 6403  (Talk•Sign!) 18:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I went away and created WikiProject Spirits, feel free to join! -- Cabe 6403  (Talk•Sign!) 14:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Arak (distilled beverage)
Will someone please take a look at the recent changes made by Wahrmund in the lead to Arak (distilled beverage) and pass judgment? --Zlerman (talk) 03:56, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They look well intentioned to me, he's just trying to improve the article. Maybe not the best way according to wikipedia but we can't fault anyone for that. If you think he's not doing this correctly just nudge him onto the rules and policies of the 'pedia and help him improve. -- Cabe 6403  (Talk•Sign!) 02:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Artificial cheese
Is at AfD. There's also a processed cheese article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Mughlai cuisine
Does anyone want to smooth out this article after this edit? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Drink Portal
We need one for the following projects:


 * WikiProject Soft Drinks
 * Coffee and Tea task force
 * WikiProject Mixed Drinks
 * WikiProject Bartending
 * WikiProject Spirits

--Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 05:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I started it here: P:Drink --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 10:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)