Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 116

HTML tag errors
I'm going through Special:LintErrors, and I've found several hundred high-priority errors in articles tagged by this WikiProject. I've put a list of 74 articles affected by misnested tags below. The wikitext parser is going to change in June, and any page with an error may display strangely.

What's needed right now is for someone to click these links and compare the side-by-side preview of the two parsers. If the "New" page looks okay, then something's maybe technically wrong with the HTML, but there's no immediate worry. If that column looks wrong, then it should be fixed. Taking the first item as an example, the problem is in the infobox (the wikitext for the infobox should be highlighted in the editing window, underneath the preview). I don't see a significant difference in the infoboxes. If you're satisfied with the appearance in the new rendering, then you're done.

If you want to know more about how to fix these pages, then see mw:Help:Extension:Linter/html5-misnesting. For more help, you can ask questions at Wikipedia talk:Linter.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Abramovich?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=80262010
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Keynes_Dons_F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92590530
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_Field?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=52900352
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FIFA_World_Cup_squads?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=82426939
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadion_Poljud?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=73139643
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_in_Norwegian_football?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=51324696
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Barrett?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=82780461
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top-division_football_clubs_in_UEFA_countries?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91766316
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_Stadium_(Maldives)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79379158
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campeonato_Brasileiro_tournament_scheduling?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=51416391
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubén_Ruiz_Díaz?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=68649836
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractor_Sazi_F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92509507
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Imperia_1923?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47951888
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Imperia_1923?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47951889
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904_FA_Cup_Final?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47557352
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Gneki_Guié?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=69065951
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_UEFA_Futsal_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=82994167
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Olympique_Lyonnais_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79291370
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Luton_Town_F.C._players?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92440052
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Schneider_(footballer)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=46888038
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999–2000_FC_Oțelul_Galați_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91881296
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Olympique_Lyonnais_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=73503443
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Olympique_Lyonnais_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=73503444
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Olympique_Lyonnais_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=73503445
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Olympique_Lyonnais_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=73503446
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Blackburn_Rovers_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79887930
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_Femenina?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85656625
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_Femenina?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85656626
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_Femenina?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85656627
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_Femenina?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85656628
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_Femenina?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85656629
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_Femenina?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85656630
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Northampton_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47755712
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_Premier_Soccer_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47233314
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbekistan_Pro_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78959770
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relocation_of_Wimbledon_F.C._to_Milton_Keynes?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=86482499
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=89897104
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_Al_Ain_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=45855436
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_Banda?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=46521779
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_Manchester_City_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79888462
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_Premier_Soccer_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=45551362
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akim_Orinel?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=82667984
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Premier_Soccer_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=46036728
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Real_Sociedad_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78571107
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Real_Sociedad_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78571108
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Real_Sociedad_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78571109
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcelana_Futebol_Clube_do_Cazengo?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=77970119
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Zimbabwe_Premier_Soccer_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47238821
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001–02_Taça_de_Portugal?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=49989291
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_South_African_Premier_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=45561727
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrelegated_association_football_clubs?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90613442
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(OFC)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81686060
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(AFC)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91937765
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_South_African_Premier_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=54354251
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(CONCACAF)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81686145
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(CAF)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=88638124
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90179839
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Israeli_Premier_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79403773
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Estonian_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85997012
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Estonian_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85997013
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Estonian_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85997014
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Football_Stadia_Improvement_Fund?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=80515142
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_NSL_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=48212099
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucestershire_County_Womens_Football_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47054927
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_Israeli_Premier_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79438930
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_FA_Cup_qualifying_rounds?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47557362
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Philippines_Football_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90970294
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Real_Salt_Lake_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=88930724
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_FIFA_Women's_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91571363
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship_qualification?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=88837178
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Uzbekistan_First_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=47246255
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_Israeli_Premier_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91416936
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_Inverness_Caledonian_Thistle_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92479282
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamil_Abbas?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78723068

There are also a few hundred table errors (see mw:Help:Extension:Linter/deletable-table-tag); I'll post those separately. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:51, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Segunda Liga/LigaPro categories
Should Category:Segunda Liga players and Category:LigaPro players be merged, considering they are both about the Portuguese second tier - Segunda Liga to LigaPro was just a rename, by the looks of it. R96Skinner (talk) 00:54, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, we cover them under a single article, so it makes sense for the categories to be consistent. Jellyman (talk) 10:25, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed. GiantSnowman 07:51, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Spamming regional flag, again


Either the same blocked user that edit using ip as block evasion, or other user that decide to add back the flag (but not wish to associate with the edits), those flag was added back by this edit (Special:Diff/827948241) Anyone wanner clean up the flags? Matthew_hk  t  c  23:25, 29 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Well cleanup done in the national football team and Primera División (women), let see when it will came back. Matthew_hk   t  c  14:33, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

birth date and age template
and seem to think that the birth date and age template's use of (age 26) instead of (age 26 years) is both problematic and incorrect. The editor has taken correcting that problem in articles. I warned the editor that this behaviour was unconstructive and suggested that a discussion should be started at the template. Any comments or concerns? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:04, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If there are felt to be issues, then try and seek consensus to amend the template itself (I know how that discussion will go...) but their edits are entirely disruptive. GiantSnowman 07:50, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I raised it on the template's talk page and one editor there commented on both user talk pages. I was concerned that the editor might go undercover which is why I mentioned it here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:48, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

List of current Iranian expatriate footballers
How comes the references are at the top of the page? And is there a parent list? Govvy (talk) 20:30, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The article should be deleted. GiantSnowman 07:48, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Posted to AfD. Hhhhhkohhhhh (talk) 08:42, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I wanted to delete it a while back when I noticed the article, but no one on the project replied to that. I always considered this leaning towards WP:Listcraft. Govvy (talk) 18:10, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Jong AZ
Any reason we don't have an article on this team? They play in the Dutch 2nd Division, separately from the senior team... GiantSnowman 13:26, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I think just because we are lack of writer on topic outside their interest. There was Jong Ajax article. Unfortunately nl:Jong AZ was a redirect to nl:AZ (voetbalclub) so it need more time to dig out some reliable source to craft an article.  Matthew_hk   t  c  15:03, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Instead they had nl:AZ Jeugdopleiding, literally AZ Youth Sector. Matthew_hk   t  c  15:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * No reason I can think of for the article not existing other than nobody has taken the time. It would take minimal effort to produce a stub with the content of Jong FC Utrecht. On the subject, I've been confused as to why Feyenoord hasn't pushed for their Jong team to play at the same level? Crowsus (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've created a very basic stub. Build it and they will come etc. GiantSnowman 18:43, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

ask for approval
Hi, I wonder if this project wants to add WikiProject Football template to redirects based on what articles that in Category:All WikiProject Football articles for example (the example for WikiProject Medicine).--جار الله (talk) 15:40, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * What is the point of tagging redirects? GiantSnowman 16:07, 27 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Just find something else more constructive to spam AWB for edit count. That template is not that useful, no need to make it a "standard" in every redirect. Matthew_hk   t  c  11:50, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The point is to check is there is any un-wanted redirects and Send them to delete, the task by the bot.--جار الله (talk) 12:11, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense. GiantSnowman 12:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

ask for approval
Hi, I wonder if this project wants to add WikiProject Football template to redirects based on what articles that in Category:All WikiProject Football articles for example (the example for WikiProject Medicine).--جار الله (talk) 15:40, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * What is the point of tagging redirects? GiantSnowman 16:07, 27 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Just find something else more constructive to spam AWB for edit count. That template is not that useful, no need to make it a "standard" in every redirect. Matthew_hk   t  c  11:50, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The point is to check is there is any un-wanted redirects and Send them to delete, the task by the bot.--جار الله (talk) 12:11, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense. GiantSnowman 12:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Honours (yes, honours)
Imagine we all agree that the runner-up finishes were to be included in players/teams list of honours (i know we don't, so i'm not even going in that direction, just suppose we do).

Thus, picture the following scenario: a player appears in four FIFA World Cup tournaments, and gets a 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd and a 4th place. If the current version at Álvaro Arbeloa (for example, only saw it in this article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C3%81lvaro_Arbeloa&diff=next&oldid=839274937) seems to suggest a consensual direction, would we REALLY need (in the case presented in the lines above) FOUR LINES (or THREE, since a fourth place is not an honour) for their World Cup achievements? With all due respect, what on earth is wrong with this version (please see here, also from Mr. Arbeloa https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C3%81lvaro_Arbeloa&diff=839274937&oldid=839274845)?

Inputs please, attentively and continue the good work --Quite A Character (talk) 21:21, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * What I think you're trying to ask, in not so many words, is whether honours from the same competition should be listed in the same line, even if they are different types (e.g. winner and runner-up). It's not something I feel particularly strongly about, but I'd go for recording them on the same line to make the section a bit more compact. However, what does stand out for me is that whilst "Runner-up" and "Third-place" are identified, "Winner" is not – perhaps that should be added to the layout? Number   5  7  22:08, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

"Yes" to your initial question. Also, good point, I never add it myself (the "winner" mention) as i (wrongly, perhaps?) feel it's implied. --Quite A Character (talk) 12:46, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

2017–18 Manchester City F.C. season
I was wondering if it's my browser or screen size, but I can't seem to read the squad statistics table, some strange wrapping is going on and the final two rows look out of alignment. Also all the transfers tables don't match up on my screen, even when I changed my res. I was wondering if anyone else has issues looking at Man City season pages. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. Jack N. Stock (talk) 02:07, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Well I work on a mac-book which is set at 1440x900 and the man city season pages seem all the same, squad statistics font is smaller than the rest, table too big for my screen size. Govvy (talk) 06:52, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * All good for me aswell. Kante44 (talk) 07:35, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Anyone else edit from a laptop? Govvy (talk) 22:35, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I edit from a laptop, but I think the difference is Apple's proprietary software. Have you tried using a different browser? Jack N. Stock (talk) 22:47, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've got google chrome and Safari, google chrome I have to push to 140 magnifications to read the Squad statistics table due to the font size set on it and the own goals row looks odd, and the total rows is out of alignment in both browsers. As for the transfers and loans section, looks a lot better in chrome, however it's very annoying editing that tables are kind of hidden away and I have to scroll horizontally to view it!! Govvy (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * What about 2016–17 Manchester City F.C. season? Jack N. Stock (talk) 23:32, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Same problems. Govvy (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Table formatting errors
This list is articles affected by what's called the "deletable table tag" error. This error mostly happens with nested tables. Again, these may or may not display strangely, and the only way to find out is for someone to look at them.

Taking the first item as an example, the table in the ===UEFA club rankings=== section isn't closed properly, which makes it display strangely (i.e., in the ==External links== section and with the Commons category box half merged into the end of the table). It's obviously broken now, and it will actually be slightly less broken with the new parser, but it needs to be fixed.

If you want to know more about how to fix these pages, then see mw:Help:Extension:Linter/deletable-table-tag. Send questions to Wikipedia talk:Linter. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:59, 29 April 2018 (UTC)


 * 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borussia_Dortmund?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92475001
 * 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2004?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=89291661
 * 3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrexham_A.F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92120238
 * 4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redbridge_F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=88512712
 * 5) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Place?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91546968
 * 6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarabağ_FK?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91967163
 * 7) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarabağ_FK?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91967164
 * 8) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarabağ_FK?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91967165
 * 9) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_national_football_team?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=88702566
 * 10) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympique_Lyonnais?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=54051316
 * 11) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates_national_football_team?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92447273
 * 12) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_FC?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92499161
 * 13) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.D._Marathón?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90507243
 * 14) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Copa_América?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81892079
 * 15) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBC_(football_club)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=87657395
 * 16) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBC_(football_club)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=87657396
 * 17) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_United_FC?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91182259
 * 18) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Fury?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90077659
 * 19) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchee_SC?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90573586
 * 20) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Hämeenlinna?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79953620
 * 21) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodlands_Wellington_FC?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75109659
 * 22) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1898–99_in_Belgian_football?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=8300042
 * 23) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71033826
 * 24) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71033827
 * 25) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71033828
 * 26) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71033829
 * 27) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71033830
 * 28) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71033831
 * 29) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71033832
 * 30) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_UEFA_European_Under-21_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71033833
 * 31) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1899–1900_in_Belgian_football?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=8895084
 * 32) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1899–1900_in_Belgian_football?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=8895085
 * 33) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901–02_in_Belgian_football?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=11882492
 * 34) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadio_Olimpico_Grande_Torino?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=83596039
 * 35) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centro_Sportivo_Alagoano?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=87578413
 * 36) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congleton_Town_F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=84036574
 * 37) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Premier_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=83830528
 * 38) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primera_División_de_Futsal?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=86164746
 * 39) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_Constantine?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92084715
 * 40) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KF_Vllaznia_Shkodër?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=88346090
 * 41) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Women's_Euro_2009?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=74493098
 * 42) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_UEFA_Intertoto_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79092978
 * 43) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Adelaide_United_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90050639
 * 44) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Central_Coast_Mariners_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90050644
 * 45) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Melbourne_Victory_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90050646
 * 46) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_UNCAF_Interclub_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78871950
 * 47) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Queensland_Roar_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90050635
 * 48) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteras_Tripoli_F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92315237
 * 49) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Newcastle_Jets_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90050654
 * 50) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salthill_Devon_F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=27348442
 * 51) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Perth_Glory_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90050637
 * 52) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.D._Santacruceña?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=89138517
 * 53) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_UEFS_Futsal_Men's_Championship?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=6801340
 * 54) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudiu_Keșerü?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91383600
 * 55) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsingin_Palloseura?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78031334
 * 56) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Wellington_Phoenix_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=77279391
 * 57) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1907–08_in_Belgian_football?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=13150532
 * 58) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911–12_in_Belgian_football?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=13151783
 * 59) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Peterborough_United_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=4862213
 * 60) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atsalenios_F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=86616162
 * 61) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superclásico?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90097388
 * 62) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Coupe_de_France_Final?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=11153933
 * 63) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_Rollers_F.C.?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=85557444
 * 64) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Coventry_City_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=45352431
 * 65) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Real_Madrid_C.F._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91310951
 * 66) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correcaminos_UAT?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90525591
 * 67) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Sociedad_B?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=83304927
 * 68) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Blues_FC?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=72653046
 * 69) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Coupe_de_la_Ligue_Final?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=6823579
 * 70) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Coupe_de_la_Ligue_Final?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=10025129
 * 71) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=74089844
 * 72) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Categoría_Primera_A_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81742242
 * 73) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Caribbean_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79338709
 * 74) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Caribbean_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79338710
 * 75) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Caribbean_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79338711
 * 76) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Caribbean_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79338712
 * 77) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Caribbean_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79338713
 * 78) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Caribbean_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79338714
 * 79) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobos_BUAP?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=86590779
 * 80) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Liverpool_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=69263082
 * 81) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Liverpool_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=69263083
 * 82) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_São_Paulo_Futebol_Clube_players?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=73227495
 * 83) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Clube_de_Regatas_do_Flamengo_records_and_statistics?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92325498
 * 84) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Clube_de_Regatas_do_Flamengo_records_and_statistics?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92325499
 * 85) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Nottingham_Forest_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=12971607
 * 86) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Newcastle_Jets_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=77279354
 * 87) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Aberdeen_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=11315352
 * 88) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1898–99_Belgian_First_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=41756768
 * 89) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1899–1900_Belgian_First_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=41756873
 * 90) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1899–1900_Belgian_First_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=41756874
 * 91) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901–02_Belgian_First_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=41753287
 * 92) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1909–10_Belgian_First_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=41748517
 * 93) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912–13_Belgian_First_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=41745560
 * 94) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1928–29_Belgian_First_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=41425098
 * 95) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_FC_Basel_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=4897432
 * 96) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Olympique_Lyonnais_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79291360
 * 97) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Nottingham_Forest_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=8283903
 * 98) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Nottingham_Forest_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=37350261
 * 99) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_FC_Basel_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=4897416
 * 100) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Juventus_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91788725
 * 101) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957–58_Eredivisie?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=32851491
 * 102) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957–58_Eredivisie?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=32851492
 * 103) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959–60_Eredivisie?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=32851621
 * 104) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959–60_Eredivisie?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=32851622
 * 105) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Hull_City_A.F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=87524245
 * 106) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Coventry_City_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=45369315
 * 107) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Nottingham_Forest_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=10226167
 * 108) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Wellington_Phoenix_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81284770
 * 109) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Bolton_Wanderers_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=55205007
 * 110) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_NK_Osijek_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=67566867
 * 111) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Perth_Glory_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=4910347
 * 112) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Al-Nassr_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=4910668
 * 113) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_S.S.C._Napoli_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91971804
 * 114) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Brighton_&_Hove_Albion_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=22689702
 * 115) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005–06_Liverpool_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90424899
 * 116) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Djurgårdens_IF_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=91014792
 * 117) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davronjon_Tukhtasunov?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=70822178
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 * 120) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_U-20_Women's_World_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75007695
 * 121) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_U-20_Women's_World_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75007696
 * 122) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_U-20_Women's_World_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75007697
 * 123) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957–58_Eerste_Divisie?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=32852613
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 * 125) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Wellington_Phoenix_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=77279532
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 * 127) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlético_Levante_UD?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81271953
 * 128) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Myanmar_National_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=82274378
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 * 192) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_national_under-17_football_team?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92226749
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 * 201) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_Inter_Milan_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79461427
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 * 231) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_Scottish_First_Division?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90575073
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 * 236) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_Club_Nacional_de_Football_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=89957531
 * 237) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_Northampton_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=51528185
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 * 240) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NCAA_Division_I_men's_soccer_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=86519803
 * 241) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004–05_PSV_Eindhoven_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=9623728
 * 242) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatsuro_Inui?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=88346408
 * 243) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_Fleetwood_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79478214
 * 244) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_FC_Basel_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92581541
 * 245) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Luton_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=86543483
 * 246) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995–96_Aston_Villa_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=71270110
 * 247) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005–06_FC_Basel_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92581528
 * 248) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990–91_Burnley_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=40777799
 * 249) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004–05_FC_Basel_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92581518
 * 250) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Reading_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=86936896
 * 251) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Swindon_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78148870
 * 252) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_Depay?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92457820
 * 253) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Huddersfield_Town_A.F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=54767479
 * 254) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Slovenian_Supercup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=5165486
 * 255) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roda_JC_(women)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90938338
 * 256) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Copa_de_México_de_Naciones?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=9677687
 * 257) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Copa_de_México_de_Naciones?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=9677688
 * 258) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Copa_de_México_de_Naciones?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=9677689
 * 259) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Copa_de_México_de_Naciones?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=9677690
 * 260) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Brighton_&_Hove_Albion_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78494202
 * 261) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Hong_Kong_Senior_Challenge_Shield?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75473416
 * 262) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Hong_Kong_Season_Play-off?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75258635
 * 263) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Hong_Kong_Season_Play-off?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75258636
 * 264) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Hong_Kong_Season_Play-off?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75258637
 * 265) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Swansea_City_A.F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=77014159
 * 266) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Bahrain_First_Division_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79335124
 * 267) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantinos_Triantafyllopoulos?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81554889
 * 268) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Big_East_Conference_Men's_Soccer_Tournament?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78706520
 * 269) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_PSV_Eindhoven_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=50623580
 * 270) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005–06_PSV_Eindhoven_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=9663063
 * 271) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_CR_Vasco_da_Gama_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92437667
 * 272) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Virginia_Cavaliers_men's_soccer_team?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78706522
 * 273) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Vancouver_Whitecaps_FC_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90731264
 * 274) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Georgetown_Hoyas_men's_soccer_team?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78706524
 * 275) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Akron_Zips_men's_soccer_team?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78706518
 * 276) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Conference_USA_men's_soccer_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78743328
 * 277) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Big_South_Conference_men's_soccer_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78743330
 * 278) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Atlantic_Sun_Conference_men's_soccer_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81802631
 * 279) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Southern_Conference_men's_soccer_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78754055
 * 280) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Algerian_Cup_Final?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=5215562
 * 281) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Akron_Zips_men's_soccer_team?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78743333
 * 282) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_in_Hong_Kong_football?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=5216257
 * 283) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Swindon_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=89098078
 * 284) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Liga_MX_Clausura_Liguilla?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=72214950
 * 285) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_AA–Hong_Kong_Pegasus_FC_rivalry?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=8088162
 * 286) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Huddersfield_Town_A.F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=54767569
 * 287) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Mohun_Bagan_A.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79428261
 * 288) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Hong_Kong_Senior_Challenge_Shield?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=5252753
 * 289) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Hong_Kong_Season_Play-off?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75259773
 * 290) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Hong_Kong_Season_Play-off?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75259774
 * 291) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Hong_Kong_Season_Play-off?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75259775
 * 292) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Liberian_First_Division_League?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=88744785
 * 293) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Guangdong–Hong_Kong_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=5267989
 * 294) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Guangdong–Hong_Kong_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=5267990
 * 295) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977–78_Nottingham_Forest_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=68642021
 * 296) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hilal_FC_(South_Sudan)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75777171
 * 297) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Swindon_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=78255139
 * 298) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995–96_Swindon_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=73870836
 * 299) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Swindon_Town_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=73870843
 * 300) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Primera_B_Metropolitana?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90579710
 * 301) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Primera_B_Metropolitana?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90579711
 * 302) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Hong_Kong_Senior_Challenge_Shield?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=5316462
 * 303) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_national_futsal_team?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=86365590
 * 304) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Doncaster_Rovers_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=90451637
 * 305) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Inter_Milan_season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=76528061
 * 306) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Chatham_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75042832
 * 307) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Chatham_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75042833
 * 308) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Chatham_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75042834
 * 309) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Chatham_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75042835
 * 310) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Chatham_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75042836
 * 311) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Chatham_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=75042837
 * 312) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Coupe_de_France_Preliminary_Rounds?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=79111175
 * 313) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_City_FC?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=89232069
 * 314) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magreb_'90?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=20842441
 * 315) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magreb_'90?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=20842442
 * 316) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_Doncaster_Rovers_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=42922673
 * 317) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=87365403
 * 318) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=87365404
 * 319) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=87365405
 * 320) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China_Cup?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=87365406
 * 321) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amr_Barakat?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81838459
 * 322) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurniawan_Ajie?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=84389849
 * 323) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_Persepolis_F.C._season?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=92457275
 * 324) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._3–4_Manchester_City_F.C._(2004)?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=80440802


 * After some expirmentation I think I now understand the issue and I think I have dealt with the entries for Coupe de France from the above (136 to 183). Gricehead (talk) 14:43, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gricehead. Do you want to summarize your advice, so that other editors will be able to help with some of the remaining ones?
 * Also, you can get a list of errors for any article you want, by using the "Page information" link in the sidebar (example). If you scroll all the way to the end, the next-to-last section is ==Lint errors== (above ==External tools==).  If the section is missing, then there are no lint errors left in the article.  That page will tell you about medium and low priority errors as well, and it's an easy way to check whether your attempted fix actually worked.  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:18, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Gender in lede
There is a discussion at Talk:Premier Development League about whether the lede should contain "men's only". This was prompted after one of the keepers of the Canada women's national soccer team, Stephanie Labbé, successfully trialled for Calgary Foothills F.C., but the league refused to allow her to sign by stating it was a men's only league. Please offer opinion on the talk pages. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:22, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

AFS Reports/Benny Fenton
Long shot, but does anyone have copies of the AFS Reports from around 2000? When I was working on the Benny Fenton article, I discovered that the obit that was previously on the 11v11 website had disappeared and isn't rescuable. I know that their obits were also published in the Reports, so it might be in one of those. Alternatively, if anyone knows of other sources for the dates of his spell (as a youth) at Colchester Town, and his various non-playing roles at Charlton (which I have since moved to the talk page), that would also be great. Thanks, Nzd   (talk)  12:19, 7 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Is this link what you want: Football Obituaries F?  Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:21, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Er, yeah, that'll be it Nice work, how did you manage that? (I have just rechecked the previous link to make sure I wasn't not going mad, and it still isn't in Wayback..) Thanks,  Nzd   (talk)  13:32, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I went back to an older archive in 2006. Newer ones gave a 301 error. No idea why.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

U23 appearing in player statistics
Per Bojan Krkić is this now a thing that we are listing in season summaries for Career Statistics? I think an over-zealous editor is at work here, but surely reserve team appearances are not an 'appearance'. Koncorde (talk) 10:38, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * U23 appearances in the EFL Trophy should be added to career stats tables. Please see here for the discussion that took place following the change to the format of the EFL Trophy. LTFC 95 (talk) 11:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Disagree - do not include them. GiantSnowman 13:24, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Arguably, including them would follow our established standard of only including reserve/under-age teams if they play in a "first-team" competition. Although the English system doesn't include mixed first-team and reserve-team leagues (not at the top end, anyway), that's exactly what they're doing with the EFL Trophy: it's an official, national, first-team cup competition that currently allows U23 teams to enter.
 * If we're considering reliable sources, Soccerbase does list U23 team apps in the EFL Trophy, but not apps in comps like Premier League 2. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Strictly speaking it is allowing Premier League teams to field a squad of players who may or may not be U23 (which is how the Stoke game had £30m of players on the field according to one news source). It seems more like a restricted squad trophy rather than a new team entity. He didn't transfer teams, or technically change registration, or go on loan, he just played in an age restricted competition. Koncorde (talk) 14:50, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * They are appearances in a first-team, senior competition, so why should they be excluded? Mattythewhite (talk) 19:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Because we do not include youth statistics, and having only EFL Trophy in a career stats table when someone is playing for Sunderland U23s or whoever is incomplete and misleading. GiantSnowman 19:49, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The EFL Trophy is not a youth competition, as I am sure you are already aware. Mattythewhite (talk) 19:53, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with including them. As Struway2 alludes to, we include statistics for teams like Bayern Munich II or Barcelona B as they play in their respective league system - which the EFL Trophy also does. R96Skinner (talk) 20:04, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Need help fixing date errors
An update to age means that it now checks that dates are valid. A lot of dates used in articles have problems such June 31 or February 29 in a non-leap year. Help cleaning articles from Category:Age error is needed. It would be great if people familiar with football would clean some of the relevant articles in the hidden error tracking category. Search for "Error:" in an article to find the error (or errors). A typical fix is to change the first of the following to the second 0 20 because the dates should be. An unknown month or day can be replaced with 0. I try to check the birth date in the article for the player, if its available. Thanks! Johnuniq (talk) 09:38, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There are 133 football articles in Category:Age error because they have an invalid date. Please help fix a few of them! Johnuniq (talk) 08:56, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Done a few this morning. Will keep doing more each day until to get the outstanding number down a lot.Drawoh46 (talk) 09:18, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I noticed the problems were down. Johnuniq (talk) 01:36, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've just done a whole lot as a way to avoid doing my actual job today. Will look to do more later as well. NZFC  (talk) 02:46, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Naming conventions for reserve academy pages.
I was wondering if those pages should follow the same naming conventions, at the moment I thought there was two different ways we were naming the pages, but Man City is a bit different with EDS, I was wondering if we should be a bit more strict. As you can see below.


 * Arsenal F.C. Under-23s and Academy
 * Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Under-23s and Academy
 * Liverpool F.C. Reserves and Academy
 * Manchester United F.C. Reserves and Academy
 * Manchester City F.C. EDS and Academy
 * Manchester City F.C. EDS and Academy
 * Manchester City F.C. EDS and Academy

Should we stick to one format title? Govvy (talk) 09:10, 8 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes we should do - I prefer 'Reserves and Academy'. GiantSnowman 09:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Manchester City F.C.
Can someone else please deal with this disruptive editor on Man City article. Thanks. Govvy (talk) 11:57, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Could you explain what the disruption is? It seems more like a content dispute to me.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Those players haven't played for the first team this season, most of the list was the debuts from 2016 apart from one player and it seems completely irrelevant to the first team as of the current season. Also, it's if you're going to do this, it's going to be completely over populated and it's missing 17 other academy players who have made first team appearances, it hasn't been maintained ... the Academy page covers these players anyway. It's a stupid list and we don't do this on any other club article. Govvy (talk) 12:11, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see why these players shouldn't be listed tbh; if it's not done elsewhere, I think it needs doing. Number   5  7  12:13, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It would be better to see some discussion on the talk page to achieve consensus on the rights or wrongs of the list, rater than the current edit warring approach. Gricehead (talk) 12:14, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * But they haven't made a first team appearance this season!! So they aren't in the first team! Govvy (talk) 12:16, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

By that definition, do you want to list all the players in an academy in a list on the main club article that have made one or more appearances in the first team? That could range from one player to say 40 players? Players are already separated into First team, reserve, under-23, under-21. You will be breaking MoS if you start doing that. Govvy (talk) 12:28, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. And it's not violating the MOS. I would expect to see Bersant Celina listed in City's player list and don't see any good reason why he should be excluded. Number   5  7  12:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

The players are not listed as being in the first team – which is based on the list on the club website. Rather, they are listed separately as having made appearances (one of them this season). This seems like information as relevant to a football club's current squad as the on-loan players. Keen to know who the 17 other academy players who have made first team appearances are; they should certainly be added to the page as well. OZOO (t) (c) 12:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Well I disagree, I consider this bad content forking, I feel they should be listed either with the main squad or the academy and relevant to the current season and the current list in question is not relevant to this season. Govvy (talk) 12:50, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Michal Šilhavý
Can I get a read as to whether this subject meets WP:NFOOTBALL. ~Kvng (talk) 15:16, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * According to his DNES profile, he made 15 appearances for FC Viktoria Plzeň in the fully-pro Gambrinus liga during the 2000–01 season. That's enough to technically satisfy NFOOTY, but the article could use some additional references regarding his play during that season. Jogurney (talk) 20:38, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have accepted this draft as Michal Šilhavý and added a copy of your comments to the new article's talk page. ~Kvng (talk) 13:33, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

FYI. New interactive map feature
A new feature for embedding interactive maps has recently been added to Wikipedia. could be useful for some of the football pages (on clubs, leagues or stadia) that currently use location map. I've drafted out a map for London football stadia (see below).

It should also be possible to create a template and module system to simplify the map making, storing the coordinate information for clubs and stadia (or even retrieving them from wikidata) and generating the json data for the markers. The map template would then just need basic map information along with a list of clubs and/or stadia.

 [{ "type": "ExternalData", "service": "geoshape", "ids": "Q23306", "properties": { "fill":"#eeffff", "stroke": "#333333", "stroke-width": 1  } },{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.066417, 51.60475] }, "properties": { "title": "New White Hart Lane", "description": "File:NDProject2015.jpg", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "large", "marker-color": "0050d0" } }, { "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.065833, 51.603333] }, "properties": { "title": "White Hart Lane", "description": "White Hart Lane Aerial.jpgnham Hotspur Football Club (1899-2017)", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "small", "marker-color": "dd50d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.108611, 51.555] }, "properties": { "title": "Emirates Stadium", "description": " Arsenal Football Club", "marker-symbol": "museum", "marker-size": "small", "marker-color": "0050d0" } }, { "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.102778, 51.557778] }, "properties": { "title": "Highbury", "description": " Arsenal Football Club (1913-2006)", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "dd50d0" } }, { "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.191111, 51.481667] }, "properties": { "title": "Stamford Bridge", "description": "Chelsea Football Club", "marker-symbol": "town-hall", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } }, { "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.221667, 51.475] }, "properties": { "title": "Craven Cottage", "description": "Fulham Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.016389, 51.538611] }, "properties": { "title": "Olympic Stadium", "description": "West Ham United Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } }, { "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [0.039444, 51.531944] }, "properties": { "title": "Upton Park", "description": " West Ham United Football Club (1904-2016)", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "dd50d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [0.036389, 51.486389] }, "properties": { "title": "The Valley", "description": "Charlton Athletic Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.085556, 51.398333] }, "properties": { "title": "Selhurst Park", "description": "Crystal Palace Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.281944, 51.405083] }, "properties": { "title": "Kingsmeadow", "description": " A.F.C. Wimbledon", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.401486, 51.649836] }, "properties": { "title": "Vicarage Road", "description": "Watford Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.291785, 51.602599] }, "properties": { "title": "The Hive Stadium", "description": "Barnet Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.232222, 51.509167] }, "properties": { "title": "Loftus Road", "description": "Queens Park Rangers Football Club", "marker-symbol": "soccer", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.302639, 51.488183] }, "properties": { "title": "Griffin Park", "description": "Brentford Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.012658, 51.56015] }, "properties": { "title": "Brisbane Road", "description": "Leyton Orient Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.05095, 51.485953] }, "properties": { "title": "The (New) Den", "description": "Millwall Football Club", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "medium", "marker-color": "0050d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.048175, 51.480883] }, "properties": { "title": "The (Old) Den", "description": "Millwall Football Club (1910-1993)", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "small", "marker-color": "dd50d0" } },

{ "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.279722, 51.555833] }, "properties": { "title": "Wembley Stadium", "description": "", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "large", "marker-color": "0050d0" } }, { "type": "Feature", "geometry": { "type": "Point", "coordinates": [-0.279722, 51.555556] }, "properties": { "title": "Wembley Stadium", "description": "", "marker-symbol": "-number", "marker-size": "small", "marker-color": "dd50d0" } }]

Any comments?  Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:01, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Nice. It would be good in stadiums for World Cups and similar to show all the different locations for instance. Koncorde (talk) 14:52, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That should be easy enough. You just need the coordinates of the stadium, which are given on the stadium wikipedia pages, and then edit the data in the JSON format as above.
 * To make things simpler I've drafted a template and module which will allow entry of data in template style without bothing with the JSON format. It looks like it will work but needs a little more development before I show it here. I'm going to create a list of stadia with coordinates so only the name of the stadium needs to be entered. If you want to help you could create a list of world cup stadia names, with the wikipedia page and the coordinates in decimal form.
 * It looks like most stadia have the coordinates on their Wikidata page, but this will be more complicated to extract. I might have to request help for this step, but there is expertise among people working on biological taxonomy that can be tapped.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 10:01, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if you can create a little stadium icon? Govvy (talk) 09:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There are a limited number of icons avialable (listed here), including sports ones, e.g. with a football, but not a specific stadium one. I've changed the map to show some of them. I don't particularly like the football one (see QPR), but townhall could be suitable (see Chelsea).  Jts1882 &#124; talk 09:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Some may say "Place of Worship" is best, and we could use "Farm" for Ipswich. :D Koncorde (talk) 14:32, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I did select something special for the Emirates.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 15:13, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Update I've put together a template football map that can create maps with a number of stadia marked. It's very rudimentary with limited error checking at this stage. There are two demos: Template:football map/demo for London stadia and Template:football map/demo2 for the Russia world cup. It's crude and a first step. I need to think about how to preceed. Any suggestions are welcome.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 15:13, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Enter the paramters for the mapframe. The template uses the same parameter names as the mapframe tag, except that the description is constructed form text and image parameters.
 * 2) List the stadia as parameters |stadium1=, |stadium2=, etc. It works either
 * 3) when the stadium is listed in my list of London stadia with coordinates hardwired (e.g. those in the London stadia demo) or
 * 4) when the stadium is the exact name of an English wikipedia article with an apprpriate Wikidata item. Potentially this can pick up the coordinates of any stadium worldwide, but there is no error checking. The world cup demo uses wikidata for the cordinates and seemed to picked up the proper coordinates.

What about that t-shirt icon? Govvy (talk) 15:15, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

A.S. Roma violence
A.S._Roma

This section on the A.S. Roma page seems to have popped out of nowhere since the stabbing last week. Why is the entire section about English fans getting attacked? Surely there have been conflicts with other fans, but the entire section seems like a sensation piece based on recent events.Danieletorino2 (talk) 15:00, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's English wikipedia, so the predominate sourcing will be English, and therefore largely skewed towards events that effect the reporting for English clubs. The section in and of itself is fine, although the weight of it is a bit onerous - far outstripping the two sections immediately above it. We don't go into that level of detail in Football hooliganism, Ultras and List of hooligan firms which are probably the right locations for some of this information. Football hooliganism in the United Kingdom appears to be largely focused on British fans.
 * I might suggest that a comprehensive article on Football hooliganism in Europe is needed which can take some of these details and tie them together into a more coherent series of articles. This would also give a place to redirect overbearing sections like this to as a "see main article" type item. Koncorde (talk) 13:50, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I read through that whole piece and thought it was poorly written, it’s just listing violent events, it either needs to be rewritten or removed. It also seems very POV and Tabloid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Govvy (talk • contribs) 3 May 2018 15:16 (UTC)
 * I think it's rubbish and completely bias. Where is the violence sections on all the well-behaved English clubs? I don't know how you could argue that it was written neutrally.Danieletorino2 (talk) 03:04, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Where there are notable events I am fairly sure it often included (and often duplicated in the Rivalry page). I know it is for West Ham for instance.
 * The issue isn't even a level of bias, or neutrality, it's hard to argue with a section that is a big list of violent acts committed by Roma fans that are all cited. There is no 'balance' to a list of negatives as there will be almost no articles about Roma fans helping old ladies to cross the road.
 * The main arguments are (and should be) weight, duplication of content, recentism, and overly detailed list of events rather than a section talking about the events as a whole. Koncorde (talk) 07:49, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Firstly the section needs to be renamed to Hooliganism, needs a complete rewrite and streamlined. Govvy (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

There is clearly disagreement about this section. It was not prompted by a 'stabbing'. The fan seriously injured in Liverpool recently was not stabbed. I disagree that it was very POV and/or tabloid. It certainly was not biased. The bias seems to be in some of the comments here. It was based on reported facts. I also didn't feel it was poorly written, but then again I wouldn't would I?. It was an attempt to highlight the astonishing prolonged history of knife violence upon fans from England when visiting Rome. And to highlight that the attacks are typically from behind - the obvious inference being that they are cowardly. Quite frankly if Wikipedia is to be a valuable and reliable source of information then the detail I added should have been left on. What we now have is sparse sanitised partial information - that is what I would label tabloid and bordering on useless. (Limhey (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC))


 * It’s been toned down today by User:Ilikeeatingwaffles. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 20:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I retitled it, but from what I read, thought it was much better than before. Govvy (talk) 20:07, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

By toned down you mean hacked to the point of sanitised uselessness. All the important numerical detail of the attacks has gone.

This bizarre wilful sanitising is replicated by the change of heading from Violence to hooliganism. Check out the definitions of both here on Wikipedia. Habitually stabbing people is correctly termed violence. (Limhey (talk) 21:09, 8 May 2018 (UTC))

Violence related to sporting events is classed as Hooliganism! Govvy (talk) 21:42, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There are dedicated articles to hooliganism and football violence. The main Roma article is not the place to discuss the vast detailed content that was included when concerns were raised. Koncorde (talk) 22:18, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Need assistance with Template:2017–18 Eredivisie table
Edit war going back a week over a detail on the table. Enigmamsg 16:08, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Where is even the guide on the template? Koncorde (talk) 16:36, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know. Can anyone help? <b style="color: blue;">Enigma</b><i style="color: #FFA500;">msg</i> 03:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Flix11 invited me to this discussion. Sb008 and LICA98 have been notified by me in my talk page, hopefully they will come. Also summon, , , who frequently edit Bundesliga and Serie A templates; as well as , who currently has the most recent edit on the template documentation. @Sb008: I do not see anything seriously wrong with the way we use footnotes and statuses. To try getting your point, I read your manifesto in Template talk:2017–18 Eredivisie table, and saw some subjective assumptions. ''Similar the "C" and "Q" status cannot be combined, since it's a final and an intermediate status which can't apply at the same time... Intermediate and final statusses can't be combined, especially if they apply to a different cyclus. An European league season is not a phase of an Eredivisie season...So it's either "C", "R", "O" or "Q" or no status. These statuses are mutually exclusive...A status for the Cup winner is not among the predefined statuses. So it has to be define using the "X" status''. None of them appeared in the instruction, as far as I know. You would also like to dedicate a status for domestic cups winners. Sorry, template documentation currently suggests us use a note for that case. Centaur271188 (talk) 18:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Centaur271188, sorry, I don't know what you are asking. do you want to have C,Q or what? Frietjes (talk) 20:41, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, while does not, he thinks C and Q should not be used together. He also apparently wants to stop using status X (Assured of... but may still...), invent a status for cup winners, etc. And other editors (including me) disagree. Generally, the edit war in Eredivisie template is about that issue. Centaur271188 (talk) 20:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * You say you saw some subjective assumptions, but you don't present any reasons why they are.
 * Maybe you can answer me some questions:
 * * What according to you is a status, a phase and a footnote?
 * * What do succeeding phases make up, a season, 2 seasons?
 * * Why is champions a status and cup winners not?
 * * If the statuses C and Q can be combined, should the Q status remain forever? Should it be removed, as some claim, at the end of the season and if so what circumstance changed to cause a change in status indicators? Is, in that case, the team at the end of the season all of a sudden no longer qualified for the next phase? Or should the Q status be changed into an E status as soon as the team gets eliminated from the CL or EL?
 * * If another league is considered to be a next phase, shouldn't teams which relegate also receive a Q status, as well as teams in lower leagues who get promoted?
 * * If it's not limited to another league, shouldn't all teams receive a Q status? After all, all teams continue to a next season.
 * * I defined the C, R and O as final statuses. For the simple reason if you become champion in a particular season, you'll be champions till the end of time for that season. Similar applies for R and O and the not predefined Cup winners status. If the Q status, in your opinion, is not an intermediate status, but a final status, why would there be a reason to ever removing it?
 * * Are there any other cup winners besides domestic cup winners in national leagues?
 * * What causes a change of status besides a change in circumstances?
 * * If a status is not delineated, and can be something like "at least this but maybe that", in essence "either this or that", which definition of status are you using?
 * * I call "at least ....", "guaranteed ....." analytical conclusions. Why you call it a status?
 * * Shouldn't we also have, as I call them, pseudo statuses like, "guaranteed not to relegate" or "can no longer qualify for the CL" or a few more like that? Where is the end?
 * * Because template documentation suggest something, it's supposed to be correct by definition? Or more general, something which is suggested or even stated or even considered to be correct at some time, is true by definition till the end of times? I can think of, in my opinion, more "imperfections" in the template. You can define team names, matches won, statuses, etc etc. All of them are clearly visible in the table in some way. You can also define start points and adjust points. But neither of the 2 can be noticed in the table right away. You can only notice them by checking if the combination of W/D/L matches results in the number of points shown or if footnotes are added.
 * * etc, etc.
 * Maybe I only/partly present subjective assumptions. But only stating I do, without any reason or a more valid alternative, is even more subjective.
 * You can all disagree, but only saying "you disagree", "it's always done like that", "it's nonsense", "it's subjective" doesn't make a strong case.
 * Yes judge, we don't have any evidence, not even a case to present, but we all think he's guilty, so sentence him for life. --Sb008 (talk) 01:58, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

sorry for pinging again, just in case my first one did not work. @Sb008: another manifesto here? I do not have to tell you what I know or think about footnote, status and phase. Similarly, I think there is no point in looking up their definitions in the dictionary, just to question the way we practically use them here. As far as I know, Wikipedia does not work that way. We have a template documentation, and a consensus on editing tables. If you think that instruction have logical flaws, then please propose a change and discuss it here. Until we agree to make such change, do not start an edit war just because you think your way is better. Centaur271188 (talk) 05:56, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Positions by round
What’s the view on having these sections in League season articles? Are they notable? I notice that worldfootball.net seems to collate this information. Is it regarded as a reliable source, although even if it is we don’t necessarily want to reproduce all information from stats sites? Eldumpo (talk) 20:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm all for them in League articles (not team ones). You can see from the La Liga, to the A-League we have position by rounds in the articles. I don't know if there is any policy as such for them but don't believe it would be against WP:NOTSTATS. NZFC  (talk) 21:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see the problem where leagues have rigid fixtures, but it wouldn't work for those that don't as clubs can have games in hand for a long part of the season. Number   5  7  21:28, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That can be solved with appropriate notes. Out of curiosity, which leagues don't have rigid fixtures? --SuperJew (talk) 21:34, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Most leagues in the UK. For instance, league schedules in England are affected by the FA Cup, and clubs that do well in the competition will often end up playing games on Saturdays that they would normally have had league games on (for instance, on the weekend of 17/18 March this year there were four Premier League matches and four FA Cup ties involving clubs that would otherwise have been playing league games). Also, any country where games are regularly called off due to weather will have irregular schedules. Number   5  7  21:46, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As SuperJew says, it can be done by notes as per NZ league this year where games were moved because of OFC and World Cup play off, so can work for the odd game changes where positions are out because of games in hand. NZFC  (talk) 21:47, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * A lot of leagues in the United States also don't have fixed schedules. Like right now in the current MLS season you have scattered teams with 7, 8, 9, or 10 games played. Jay eyem (talk) 22:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

The worldfootball page for Premier League shows the position at the end of the given round e.g. round 36 shows some teams as having played 35 games. This is more practical than keeping rigidly to the original fixtures, whereby if the first match of the season is postponed the positions by round could not be filled in for some clubs (or at least, clubs not played would by default be shown last?). Notes shouldn’t be added unless they’re sourced. I don’t see why the WF link can’t just be used if this topic is deemed notable. Do any other sites carry this info? Eldumpo (talk) 22:16, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Club performance summary tables
I've noticed that for many English teams there seems to be a lot of inconsistency regarding a table overview of club performance by season. I looked at the MOS for articles here which doesn't seem to provide much guidance. As an example, I went to Brighton & Hove Albion F.C. hoping to see a table showing the level they have played in by season as with the table I've seen at Salford City F.C. (& I swear I've seen it for at least two Championship or other EFL teams) but there was nothing - I remember the ones I'd seen before because they listed all the previous names for the different levels but didn't put the level number by them which as a layperson was confusing). At least Brighton has a graph but upon hearing of the recent promotion/relegations, what I was interested in was seeing at a glance their previous level each season.  Is there a reason the articles don't have these?  Because it would be too long for some of the older clubs?  I feel like I've explained myself terribly here but this is the one thing I was looking for and I'm quite surprised they're not included - I'm looking for something to work on right now & would love to add these in but thought it would be sensible to mention it here first and see if there would be any objection to these being added. ...  CJ [a Kiwi] in    Oz   20:07, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I think they should be included, but they can be minimised quite easily. See, for example, A.F.C. Sudbury. There are quite a few non-League clubs with lists like this. Number   5  7  20:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I like that. Again I'd prefer a column giving the level numerically (again I am very much a lay person & that's usually what I'm looking for!) but this seems to be exactly what I'm talking about ...   CJ [a Kiwi] in    Oz   21:16, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not overly keen on the "level" column for clubs that have spent time in non-League, as there was no formal levels below the Football League until relatively recently. For example, it would be impossible to say what level Ipswich were playing at until their entry into the Football League in the mid-30s. Number   5  7  21:20, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you know what's silly? this.  Featured article, with a table just as I was describing, that does not appear to have been listed anywhere on the Brighton & Hove Albion F.C. page.  Still trying to figure the logic of that one out.  ...   CJ [a Kiwi] in    Oz   03:29, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Liga MX Femenil
Over at Articles for deletion/Brenda Viramontes and Articles for deletion/Daniela Carrandi, there is an ongoing discussion as to whether the Liga MX Femenil is "fully professional" and, more generally, whether citations describing a league as "professional" are sufficient to establish its status as a "fully professional league." Sources, , and clearly describe the league as "professional" but do not use the phrase "fully professional" at any point. However, it's also worth noting that, outside Wikipedia and mirrors, there are no Google results using the exact phrase "fully professional league" to describe the English Premier League (or more specifically, there are four pages of alleged results, none of which actually do so.) So clearly we don't need a citation using that exact phrase. However, while the EPL is clearly fully professional, some users have raised doubts as to whether this description is really accurate for this league. That being said, an AfD is not the appropriate place to be having this discussion, so I'm bringing it here. Pinging as he participated in the discussion over there. (On a side note, similar questions regarding Liga MX Femenil's notability were raised at Articles for deletion/Lia Morán, but that's a different situation since she hasn't actually played a game in the league yet and as such wouldn't pass NFOOTY regardless.) Smartyllama (talk) 16:37, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There was previously a discussion here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive_26. Number   5  7  16:44, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As I tried to explain, spmething being described as "professional" by the media is not the same as it being "fully-professional" per WP:FPL standards. Consensus is that the Liga MX Femenil is not (due to salary) and therefore playing in it does not make you notable per WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 18:36, 9 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment Here are some additional previous discussions to consider with regard to the exclusion of all top women's leagues except the NWSL from this notability essay - mostly repeatedly done by the same handful of editors:
 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2
 * Archive 3
 * Archive 4


 * If you're interested in opening up a discussion beyond the same handful of editors who have a recorded history of deleting women's leagues and articles here, I'd suggest incorporating a Requests for comment to gather a more thorough and up-to-date consensus and notify related projects, not excluding WP:WOSO, WP:WSPORTS, WP:WIR, WP:WOMEN, and the Gender Gap Task Force. There's an edit-a-thon for Women in Sports this month - this notability essay might make for a great and timely discussion - particularly with more than 50,000 in attendance at the Liga MX Femenil final last Friday and over 45,000 at the 2018 FA Women's Cup Final. Totally notable leagues. Handful of editors who keep them removed from this essay as well as any notes indicating status (see archive 2). I have more links to discussions to contribute to a more productive, well-rounded discussion with RFC. Hmlarson (talk) 05:10, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Based on my cursory review of online coverage of Liga MX Femenil players, I don't think the majority could satisfy the GNG. There are exceptions for star players (and Mexico national team players), but squad players don't appear to get the same degree of coverage that their colleagues in Liga MX do.  I think GNG is the proper notability test for players whose highest level of play is in Liga MX Femenil, but I'm happy to entertain sourcing that suggests otherwise. Jogurney (talk) 16:37, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Costa Brava Trophy
At the beginning of the season Man City played away in Spain against Girona in this Trophy, but we don't seem to have any information on this friendly tournament on wiki. I was wondering if we should have a page or not? Govvy (talk) 06:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)


 * And the report on the Man City season page is a Daily Mail one and should be changed. I am off to work now! Govvy (talk) 06:58, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * What evidence of notability? GiantSnowman 07:41, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Isthmian Division One North Playoffs
Hi, I tried to edit the honours section for my local non-league club Haringey Borough as they won the Isthmian Division One North playoff final 2017-18 last Sunday. Previous winners of the playoff final have it listed in their honours section on their wiki pages. It is a great achievement for a club of Borough’s size, being promoted to the Isthmian Premier is the highest that the club has ever climbed in the football pyramid. My edit was rejected on the grounds that winning the playoff trophy is not an honour. Another user suggested that I posted in the football forum. If the general consensus is that it shouldn’t appear as an honour, fair enough, but I thought that it was worth raising. Many Thanks, Donbenkneetoe (talk) 21:14, 10 May 2018 (UTC) Donbenkneetoe (talk) 21:14, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not an honour (it's an achievement) and shouldn't be listed on other club's articles either IMO. Number   5  7  21:48, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * They certainly are an honour and are on the majority of club's honours sections as far as I can see. Dover Athletic F.C., Gillingham F.C., Ipswich Town F.C., Manchester City F.C., Norwich City F.C., Sunderland A.F.C. and York City F.C. have their play-off honours listed in their honours sections and they are Featured Articles. None of the other club's with FA status have ever won play-offs so that's 100% as far as I can see. Haringey Borough F.C. only have four other honours and this is the greatest accomplishment in the club's history so it should be excluded from the honour's list based on what logic exactly?--EchetusXe 21:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Because they didn't actually win a competition. A league title or a cup is an honour. Winning a promotion play-off is not. As enjoyable as it was, I don't see Ipswich's play-off win as a club honour. Number   5  7  21:59, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * So you're saying a promotion is not a club honour? Smh... Mattythewhite (talk) 22:24, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I'm saying (the York article is the first time I've seen it listed as such). I really can't see how finishing third and getting promoted can be considered an honour. Or even worse, Corinthian-Casuals just got promoted after losing a play-off final because of clubs folding in the divisions above. Number   5  7  22:37, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Promotion is the objective for the season. Finishing first or third is irrelevant, the goal is promotion. It doesn't make sense that a club can go from League Two to the Premier League without picking up an honour on the way yet we can list a Welsh Cup victory or whatever as an honour. I guess Corinthian-Casuals's promotion could be classed as more of a league restructuring due to other club's resigning rather than an honour or accomplishment but funny things happen that far down the pyramid.--EchetusXe 22:43, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * For many clubs the objective is to avoid relegation. I don't think Huddersfield can add this season to their honours list though. Number   5  7  23:28, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I think there's two separate questions potentially getting conflated here: 1. Is winning the play-offs an honour (for which, in the EFL at least, the club gets a trophy, plays at Wembley, etc)? 2. Is simply gaining promotion (even if not via the play-offs) an honour?  Specifically here we're asking whether winning the play-offs counts as an honour, I think that is a different question from whether we should list every time a club finished second/third/fourth and gained automatic promorion (which in some cases could have occurred a dozen or more times) as an honour on a club article...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The play-offs are a tournament within a tournament. Clubs qualify for them, clubs win them, and often get a trophy for doing so. The play-off final is often a special event. Which I think means the answer to your first question is yes. The second question is more difficult. I don't think we should be listing 2nd, 3rd and 4th places as honours just because they gain promotion (or CL qualification). This raises the awkward complication that a club finishing second and gaining automatic promotion won't have it listed as an honour, while a club finishing the league in 6th and winning the play-offs would. I think the justification is that the play-offs can be considered a seperate mini-tournament with a winner. On the other hand, if Manchester United or Liverpool got relegated and then got promotion through the play-offs, it would seem ridiculous to list it as an honour. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 10:51, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Runners-up spots are honours. The style guideline for club honours sections says so, quite explicitly. It's been discussed a number of times, and there's never been anything approaching consensus for excluding them in principle; in practice, we can and do for "clubs with a large number of major trophies". cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:01, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think that an entirely accurate summary of the situation. It's been discussed a number of times, and all the discussions have ended in no consensus on whether runner-up spots are honours or not. Because the MOS was written before there was a serious discussion on the issue, it's been stuck like that by default because there's been no consensus to remove its inclusion. As for the points above, I think they highlight why counting play-off wins as an honour is not a good idea – Wycombe finished third and went up automatically this season – that's a bigger achievement that finishing seventh and winning the play-offs. Number   5  7  11:19, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's accurate, just without the backstory ;-) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:38, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree that league survival isn’t an honour. However, Huddersfield do have last year’s Championship Playoff final listed as an honour. Just looking at the current members of the Premier League, 11 of the teams have previous playoff victories listed as honours on their Wikipedia pages (Bournemouth, Burnley, Crystal Palace, Huddersfield, Leicester, Man City, Stoke, Swansea, Watford, West Brom, West Ham). Many other professional and non-League teams also list playoff success. I agree with you that it is an interesting debate as to whether a playoff victory is an honour or an achievement. Perhaps as you say, no club should list it as an honour. However, as so many clubs do have it listed as an honour, as a compromise I would suggest that at the very least Haringey’s section could be renamed ‘Honours and Achievements’ and that the playoff final victory is included. I am new to editing Wikipedia and respect everyone’s views here. Kind Regards. Donbenkneetoe (talk) 07:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I am looking for precedence and looking at AFC Wimbledon, they won the Isthmian Premier League playoffs and that is listed in their achievements section. Whether that may have any impact on this, I leave it to others to decide.  The C of E God Save the Queen!  ( talk ) 07:40, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And rightly so as winning the play-offs has a place of honour within the club's history. The section is called honours, not trophies or competitions won. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 09:03, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * .........although of course (in the EFL at least, not sure about non-League) they do get a trophy for winning the play-offs ;-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

On a similar note, should promotions and play-off victories be listed for players as well? Kosack (talk) 11:23, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Haringey Borough did indeed get a trophy for winning the playoff, I was there to cheer them on :) Donbenkneetoe (talk) 11:39, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Points
what is the formula for the points in 1936 Soviet Top League? for 1937 Soviet Top League it looks like it's 4*w+1*d+0*l? Frietjes (talk) 16:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem to be a consistent formula. What works for one club, doesn't for another. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 16:29, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The Russian article seems to say it is "3 for a victory, 2 for a draw, 1 for a loss and 0 for no appearance". Possibly as some teams at the time failed to arrive at matches, this was used? Would be helpful if this was mentioned on the articles. It's actually mentioned in the overview section, might be better to include it in the standings section though. S.A. Julio (talk) 16:34, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's 3 for win, 2 for draw, 1 for loss. It seems to add up for the 1937 league, with the numbers from rsssf. I've added the information as a footnote to the standings table in the 1937 Soviet Top League. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 16:38, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Sud Ladies Cup nominated for deletion
The Sud Ladies Cup article has been nominated for deletion. Can members of WP:Footy please come and offer their feedback here. TheBigJagielka (talk) 20:44, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Arabic translation needed
Please can an Arabic speaker read this press release image and add any missing details to South West Asian Football Federation article? I've seen some news articles claim that the Iraq and Oman FA are also members of the group but I've not been able to verify it. 22:05, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Faycal.09 may be able to help. Number   5  7  22:34, 11 May 2018 (UTC)


 * This is the translation of the page:


 * However I saw another link with Iraq and Oman members . However curiously, Qatar is not member !!! --Fayçal.09 (talk) 14:12, 14 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Seems a number of other likely nations have been left out: Nepal, Bhutan, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Qatar (source). The source suggests the move is partly because of a dispute over moving the headquarters of the WAFF from Amman to Saudi Arabia. So it looks like WAFF has split in two. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 14:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Nepal might also be joining link. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 15:03, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Play-offs
Should appearances in the end of season play-offs (in England) be included in the infobox and/or as League appearances in the "Career statistics" table? 77.130.195.244 (talk) 06:39, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe play-off stats are not for the infobox, they go in the "other" column in the career stats table. R96Skinner (talk) 06:43, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks - that's what I thought. 77.130.195.244 (talk) 06:47, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Correct. GiantSnowman 16:06, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Alexis Zárate
Not sure if this is the most ideal place to ask, but: I've just created the Alexis Zárate article due to his professional footballing career, but while researching him there's actually been a big court case regarding rape. here, here and here. Is there a specific way we go about wording legal things, I'm not sure how to. Not helped by the language barrier either, which is making it trickier to understand the full order of events. Could someone who fluently understands Spanish take a look, please? R96Skinner (talk) 19:25, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I found an English language report. There may be more reports in English, and the Spanish-language press might have more details, but at least this is enough to mention it in the article. Jack N. Stock (talk) 08:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Not sure how my search missed that! Think The Sun is considered an unreliable source on Wikipedia, but at least it helps understand the situation more to edit. R96Skinner (talk) 08:23, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Zdravko Karadachki
Will someone please verify that the subject of this draft has played at the fully professional level? Robert McClenon (talk) 10:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, he has not played in a fully professional league. The club mentioned in afc comments only attained that status after his time there. Eagleash (talk) 10:25, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * done afc commenting and cleanup. Matthew_hk   t  c  10:43, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Jlloyd Samuel
Could an Admin please semi-protect Jlloyd Samuel, Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 14:30, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ GiantSnowman 14:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Macedonia and ČŽŠs
I saw that some articles about Macednoian clubs were recently moved and renamed in the style of replacing Č Ž and Š with CH ZH and SH, for instance most famous FK Rabotnički, but also others like GFK Tikveš etc. Is there any new policy about that considering transliteration macedonian to latin? I believe we should return them to Rabotnički... Linhart (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The naming of club articles should follow what the reliable English-language sources are referring to them as. In the case of the first club linked above it should be named 'Rabotnicki' based on the sources at the article. Eldumpo (talk) 06:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * For Rabotnički, it was requested by in Requested moves/Technical requests (Special:Diff/828262173).
 * "The club name in Macedonian is ФК Работнички, which in the past used to be translated/transcripted as FK Rabotnički but the transcription rules have changed over 10 years ago and letters like ч or ш are no more translated as č/š (that were used in Yugoslavia) but they are now replaced with ch/sh instead"
 * — Matthew_hk   t  c  09:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I know that, i know macedonian. But this is like Kyiv, it is irrelevant, we should follow reliable sources. And most of them uses Rabotnički or Rabotnicki, not Rabotnichki. Even club's official page in english uses Rabotnicki. Linhart (talk) 12:28, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It seem yet another endless argument on name. Official transliteration (ISO? government standard?) vs common name (but what if English news article was not available or even article in latin script?). The tennis player was referred as Djokovic as common name in media, instead of proper transliteration Đoković ; Ibrahimović the "ć" was retained as even only half or less English article use ć (more use c), but "ć" seem appears in his shirt. Matthew_hk   t  c  12:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, well either is fine for me, č or c, I just think that ch seems a bit off, only wiki uses that.Linhart (talk) 13:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

There is not much English secondary source, but may be sufficient to as a citation for a proposed move to FK Rabotnicki (FIFA.com 2018, BBC 2010, 90min 2018), but yet it would be tug of war on move discussion between Rabotnicki or Rabotnički, but definitely not Rabotnichki. Matthew_hk  t  c  11:06, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

1933–34 Lebanese Premier League
If you look at the template on the page there are a huge amount of stub season articles, from the 1930s onwards and I am not sure if they even pass WP:NSEASONS. Should they be AfD'ed or not? Govvy (talk) 21:11, 14 May 2018 (UTC)


 * If the only source available is just showing the champion we don’t need a season article as the facts can be covered in a 'List of Lebanese Champions' article. Eldumpo (talk) 22:05, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Well I don't know how to do group AfDs, but ye a List article might work, I only came across them because they haven't been assessed. Govvy (talk) 10:55, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, for technical reason it may better turn the stub to redirect. Certainly someone had ability to add more Arabic source (such as newspaper article at that time) would be better, but the current state the stub only had routine information. Matthew_hk   t  c  11:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That seems like a simpler solution than AfDs, that could very well result in a "redirect" decision anyway. Jack N. Stock (talk) 11:40, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Redirect all of the articles which are just one-sentence sub-stubs to Lebanese Premier League -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * k, took me a little while but I went through all the stub articles and redirected them. Govvy (talk) 11:23, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * NSEASONS isn't relevant to league seasons – it concerns club seasons. Number   5  7  11:40, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Then what do league seasons come under? Just GNG? Govvy (talk) 11:48, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes! Only WP:GNG. Hhkohh (talk) 12:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Players' honours section
Hi. What is the consensus regarding including honours for players who weren't in the squad for a cup final? For example, Mikel Arteta was an Arsenal player when they won the 2014–15 FA Cup, and he was actually the first player who lifted the cup on the podium at Wembley. Also, Arsenal.com says: "Former captain Mikel spent five years at Arsenal, and led the Gunners to consecutive FA Cups in 2014 and 2015" and "After winning the FA Cup twice with the Gunners, Mikel left the club at the end of the 2015/16 season". He played in earlier rounds of the competition but he was not in the squad for the cup final (I'm not sure whether he received a medal or not). Does this mean the 2014–15 FA Cup should be included in his honours section? I ask this because it was recently removed. Hashim-afc (talk) 11:43, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Edit: After further research I don't think Arteta actually played any games in the tournament. However the question still stands as there are many players for which this case applies such as Laurent Koscielny who missed the 2017 FA Cup Final, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain who missed the 2014 FA Cup Final, Thierry Henry who missed the 2005 FA Cup Final, Patrick Vieira who missed the 2003 FA Cup Final etc etc but who played earlier games in the cup. Hashim-afc (talk) 11:48, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * What do reliable sources - do they explicitly say he won the honour? We cannot assume that players have won an honour just because their team won the trophy. GiantSnowman 11:52, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I put the link to Arsenal.com saying Arteta won two FA Cups above, is that a reliable source? Arsenal.com also says Henry won 3 FA Cups (thus including 2005). Hashim-afc (talk) 11:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)


 * According to the FA Cup article, which cites the FA rule book, each club gets 40 winners or runners-up medals and it is up to the club who gets one. Usually at finals the whole squad go up to receive a medal and that includes unused subs on the bench. There are photos of Wojciech Szczesny with his FA cup winners medal and he didn't play a second.  If Arteta lifted the cup it suggests he was one of the players who went up to get a medal. Unfortunately, I don't think these observations help determine who won an honour, but it seems likely Arteta has one of the medals. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">  Jts1882 &#124; talk 14:47, 16 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Yeah, so anyone who was in the starting eleven or on the bench for the final will obviously have the honour. For those who aren't there on the day you'd have to have a source to say they got given a medal anyway, which would be very unusual if someone who didn't feature in the tournament at all got such a medal.--EchetusXe 19:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Again, there's no "obviously" here. It's up to the club how they give out their medals. We cannot assume, even though it is highly likely, that a player has one. GiantSnowman 19:16, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * So are you going to remove honours where a report to the final is cited? Good luck with that. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you remember how long it took England 1966 squad members to get a medal (originally only the starting XI got one)...we cannot assume that p;ayers will get a medal just because they are on the bench of the final, or even play for that matter! GiantSnowman 20:01, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

May transfers
Should I put them on the end of this season club pages or the coming season? Govvy (talk) 19:08, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I think it's in the following, since these players will make their unnofficial debuts for their new clubs in the pre-season and their official ones in August. MYS <i style="color: red;">77</i> <sup style="color: orange;">✉  19:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The vast majority of players won't sign until the start of the new season (1 July) so they should be part of the new season. GiantSnowman 20:00, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * k, cheers. Govvy (talk) 20:22, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Notability of interim managers
I have a doubt about interim managers: should they have the same consideration as players, using WP:FPL as a parameter? I mean, some managers are suspended and generally their assistants are in charge of the team during the match.


 * 1) This very same assistant is notable enough to have an article? And
 * 2) This should be considered in a different approach than the regular one (which some team does not have a manager, and some assistant or youth team manager acts as an interim for a match or two until the appointment of a new manager)?

In my opinion, the second one is notable enough to earn a page, but I have doubts about the first one. MYS <i style="color: red;">77</i> <sup style="color: orange;">✉ 19:19, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The way I look at it is this, if a coach is signed on to be the head coach but for some reason only lasts 1 game before he is sacked, he would still get a page right? He wasn't the interim, he was the main head coach. Why would that be different for a guy who came in to coach once because a coach is suspended? If the match report has that "temp" coach as the coach for the game, he is notable, at least in my eyes. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Managers who manage in a fully-professional league are notable per WP:NFOOTBALL - doesn't matter if they are permanent or interim. GiantSnowman 19:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * , A clear example of my doubts is occurring right now: CD Tenerife is playing against Sporting de Gijón, and Sporting's manager Rubén Baraja is serving a four-match ban. During this period his assistant José Ramón Rodríguez Sánchez is taking charge of the team in those matches on his place. Is he notable enough to have an article?  MYS <i style="color: red;">77</i> <sup style="color: orange;">✉  20:06, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say yes, especially when there are also good in-depth sources about him like this. GiantSnowman 20:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Giantsnowman, that is what I am saying. MYS77, I would consider him notable. He is in charge of the team for those matches, setting up the team, making the changes in a professional game, subbing players etc. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:30, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject Football/Deletion archive
Currently, this list is only served for archived AfD discussion, but due to name title, I think other deletion nomination which listed in TfD, CfD, MfD, FfD and RfD (expect PROD) should be also archived, What is your idea? Pinging and other's people comments are welcome, thank you! Hhkohh (talk) 10:35, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: If no one replys, I will archive those from next month, thanks! Hhkohh (talk) 10:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * No harm in this really, but I don't see what purpose it has - the AFD list was created (if I remember correctly) to check if articles were being re-created, something you simply don't get with TFD/CFD etc. GiantSnowman 10:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Think that when someone nominated a page deletion, they can easily find and refer to previous similar deletion discussion. Hhkohh (talk) 12:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That's what we have (the underused) WikiProject Football/Consensus is for, is it not? GiantSnowman 12:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I still think using both is better than a single. Hhkohh (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Proposal to "modernize" some presentation
Hi everyone, I write this post in order to do proposals about different templates in presentation of past games. I think that we could adapt the "score templates". I propose to begin only with the "World Cup Finals tournament games". Friends, we are talking about "old games" that a lot of readers haven't seen. Than it will be much interesting to adapt with a "chronological presentation of goals" using added "br/ code and giving the "score evolution". "Dry" Final scores are not always reflected a game. With my proposal new readers-younger readers will receive a better information. That also gives "energy" to the presentation. Eventual missing penalty kick could find a place in those small lists, it was often turning point of a game. "Encyclopedia is also to inform and not only simply publish". My proposal targets also to add information because it's nearly impossible to write a "fiable" summary of each game. I think it's also better to insert the First name initial letter of goalscorers. I also propose to use Flags icons for referees. And also with flags, to insert flags above the line-ups BUT, follow my advice, "50px" size is enough for games with kits templates illustrations. LAST, I will be glad to receive lessons to be able to create "football kits templates". Per example, shirts with "federal logo" makes all the difference. To give you ideas of my proposals, I use it when creating/updating "1974 FIFA World Cup Groups pages" (see 1974 Group B, Poland vs West Germany to see a example with missing penalty). Many thanks to waste time to read me, and to answer me. Shanon11 (talk) 12:32, 22 May 2018 (CET)
 * Penalty misses should NOT be in the football box. Flags should also not be used per WP:MOS. Overall, per your talk page what said... Was fine as it was. Kante4 (talk) 12:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And there is no way the score should be presented next to the goal and scores in bold. (here)... Kante4 (talk) 14:52, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It does seem a shame that missed penalties aren't to be included, after all it's a verifiable incident in terms of time and taker, as Shanon11 has said, is often a pivotal moment in a match which is not signified at present, and we already have an icon for it (I realise it's intended for penalty shootouts). In club season articles, every yellow card including the time seems to be recorded, but not a missed penalty, seems a bit back to front to me. Crowsus (talk) 15:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not necessarily opposed to including missed penalties, though it should not be included in the football box, but rather the table below. Flags should not be included next to referees (this violates WP:ICONDECORATION), a link to their national FA suffices. The chronological presentation of goalscorers is unnecessary and excessive, and goes against the formatting used on the rest of Wikipedia. S.A. Julio (talk) 16:16, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Golden Shoe awards
I wonder why players from 1991 to 1996 are even on the European Golden Shoe article, when the award was not even given during those years? and under the section 'multiple winners' Ally McCoist are shown with 2 awards, even when he didn't even get one, as it didn't exist during that time. I looked up some information on my own, and indeed no award was given to any of those players, so why should they be there? Isn't it best to just remove them and simply write that no award was given from 1991 to 1996? The award was given first in 1967-68 season, as an example, this would be the equivalent of me adding top scorers to this article before 1967, as no award were given there too. This is an article for an actual award, not an article for european top scorers in general. Could someone please help me out with this? SteamingStars (talk) 10:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * After reading rsssf I'm in favor of deleting those years. Also McCoist didn't even lead the unofficial ranking. -Koppapa (talk) 13:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ESM, the current organizers of the award, list winners for those years, which match up what is in the article. That seems to me to be a reliable source for this article. OZOO (t) (c) 13:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * RSSSF lists the top scorers in those "missing" seasons here. BTW, McCoist was definitely presented with a golden boot award in 1992 (there are images of him being presented with it on google). This BBC article from when Henrik Larsson won the award says that the 1992 award was official, but 1993 was not. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:32, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah I see, great research there, Jmorrison! I just wondered why it was there since the article itself says it wasn't awarded, but I guess it was then? SteamingStars (talk) 13:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * My thinking is that Adidas, who sponsored Rangers' kit at the time, may have custom made a golden boot for McCoist(?). The golden boot he was presented with clearly has their branding. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

An article in The Independent from September 1992 describes the 1991/92 award as the "Adidas Golden Boot". Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Shoot! magazine gave an "Adidas Golden Boot" award - that may be what McCoist was receiving. See this photo of Teddy Sheringham receiving it, and it looks like the same trophy.  However, back when I used to read Shoot! (early to mid-80s), I distinctly recall that it was for the top scorer in the top division of the Football League, not all of Europe (Sheringham was never European top scorer)..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Amos Nasha notability
Would Amos Nasha pass WP:FOOTYN? Made an appearance (and sitting on the bench a few times) for West Ham United in the early rounds of the Europa League in 2015. Only problem is that the team (FC Lusitanos) he played against probably aren't professional. JSWHU (Talk page) 23:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't believe so, based on WP:NFOOTBALL anyway. He'd need to play in a fixture in an FPL-listed league between two clubs from an FPL-listed league. R96Skinner (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The game he appeared in was against FC Lusitanos of the Andorran Primera Divisió. This isn't listed on the FPL list, although it is described as professional on the league article. Nzd   (talk)  01:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Not notable. GiantSnowman 17:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

NFooty question
Do players not pass NFooty when playing in the FA Cup proper rounds anymore? Govvy (talk) 22:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Both teams have to be "fully professional" I believe.. Nzd   (talk)  04:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Both have to be from fully-professional leagues (as otherwise players could qualify from matches played between fully-pro clubs in non-League). Number   5  7  08:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay because Blaine Hudson which is currently prodded has played for fully-pro club against other fully pro clubs in FA Trophy and FA Cup according to Soccerway. Govvy (talk) 11:28, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The prod is correct – he wouldn't pass NFOOTY. Number   5  7  11:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * No probs, thought I'd double check because for a bit there I thought he qualified to pass NFooty. Saw he played Champions League qualifiers also, not many get to do that. Govvy (talk) 12:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The Welsh league in general is a bit of a anomaly. With TNS being a professional team, but the league not being professional; and being able to play against other professional teams in England and the CL. It's a bit of a weird one, but I'd argue that he does have at least some press coverage, such as BBC Sport, The Leader Magazine, quite a few mentions in the daily post, Shropshire Star, plus more. You could make a point for WP:GNG, which could potentially trump WP:NFOOTY, in this manor.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I did think about that but thought it was a little routine to pass GNG. Govvy (talk) 21:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Need assistance with Template:2017–18 Eredivisie table (continued)
Edit war going back a week over a detail on the table. <b style="color: blue;">Enigma</b><i style="color: #FFA500;">msg</i> 16:08, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Where is even the guide on the template? Koncorde (talk) 16:36, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know. Can anyone help? <b style="color: blue;">Enigma</b><i style="color: #FFA500;">msg</i> 03:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Flix11 invited me to this discussion. Sb008 and LICA98 have been notified by me in my talk page, hopefully they will come. Also summon, , , who frequently edit Bundesliga and Serie A templates; as well as , who currently has the most recent edit on the template documentation. @Sb008: I do not see anything seriously wrong with the way we use footnotes and statuses. To try getting your point, I read your manifesto in Template talk:2017–18 Eredivisie table, and saw some subjective assumptions. ''Similar the "C" and "Q" status cannot be combined, since it's a final and an intermediate status which can't apply at the same time... Intermediate and final statusses can't be combined, especially if they apply to a different cyclus. An European league season is not a phase of an Eredivisie season...So it's either "C", "R", "O" or "Q" or no status. These statuses are mutually exclusive...A status for the Cup winner is not among the predefined statuses. So it has to be define using the "X" status''. None of them appeared in the instruction, as far as I know. You would also like to dedicate a status for domestic cups winners. Sorry, template documentation currently suggests us use a note for that case. Centaur271188 (talk) 18:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Centaur271188, sorry, I don't know what you are asking. do you want to have C,Q or what? Frietjes (talk) 20:41, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, while does not, he thinks C and Q should not be used together. He also apparently wants to stop using status X (Assured of... but may still...), invent a status for cup winners, etc. And other editors (including me) disagree. Generally, the edit war in Eredivisie template is about that issue. Centaur271188 (talk) 20:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * You say you saw some subjective assumptions, but you don't present any reasons why they are.
 * Maybe you can answer me some questions:
 * * What according to you is a status, a phase and a footnote?
 * * What do succeeding phases make up, a season, 2 seasons?
 * * Why is champions a status and cup winners not?
 * * If the statuses C and Q can be combined, should the Q status remain forever? Should it be removed, as some claim, at the end of the season and if so what circumstance changed to cause a change in status indicators? Is, in that case, the team at the end of the season all of a sudden no longer qualified for the next phase? Or should the Q status be changed into an E status as soon as the team gets eliminated from the CL or EL?
 * * If another league is considered to be a next phase, shouldn't teams which relegate also receive a Q status, as well as teams in lower leagues who get promoted?
 * * If it's not limited to another league, shouldn't all teams receive a Q status? After all, all teams continue to a next season.
 * * I defined the C, R and O as final statuses. For the simple reason if you become champion in a particular season, you'll be champions till the end of time for that season. Similar applies for R and O and the not predefined Cup winners status. If the Q status, in your opinion, is not an intermediate status, but a final status, why would there be a reason to ever removing it?
 * * Are there any other cup winners besides domestic cup winners in national leagues?
 * * What causes a change of status besides a change in circumstances?
 * * If a status is not delineated, and can be something like "at least this but maybe that", in essence "either this or that", which definition of status are you using?
 * * I call "at least ....", "guaranteed ....." analytical conclusions. Why you call it a status?
 * * Shouldn't we also have, as I call them, pseudo statuses like, "guaranteed not to relegate" or "can no longer qualify for the CL" or a few more like that? Where is the end?
 * * Because template documentation suggest something, it's supposed to be correct by definition? Or more general, something which is suggested or even stated or even considered to be correct at some time, is true by definition till the end of times? I can think of, in my opinion, more "imperfections" in the template. You can define team names, matches won, statuses, etc etc. All of them are clearly visible in the table in some way. You can also define start points and adjust points. But neither of the 2 can be noticed in the table right away. You can only notice them by checking if the combination of W/D/L matches results in the number of points shown or if footnotes are added.
 * * etc, etc.
 * Maybe I only/partly present subjective assumptions. But only stating I do, without any reason or a more valid alternative, is even more subjective.
 * You can all disagree, but only saying "you disagree", "it's always done like that", "it's nonsense", "it's subjective" doesn't make a strong case.
 * Yes judge, we don't have any evidence, not even a case to present, but we all think he's guilty, so sentence him for life. --Sb008 (talk) 01:58, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

sorry for pinging again, just in case my first one did not work. @Sb008: another manifesto here? I do not have to tell you what I know or think about footnote, status and phase. Similarly, I think there is no point in looking up their definitions in the dictionary, just to question the way we practically use them here. As far as I know, Wikipedia does not work that way. We have a template documentation, and a consensus on editing tables. If you think that instruction have logical flaws, then please propose a change and discuss it here. Until we agree to make such change, do not start an edit war just because you think your way is better. Centaur271188 (talk) 05:56, 9 May 2018 (UTC)


 * There is indeed template, or better module, documentation. But that documentation doesn't cover in any way how the module is used by some. I looked for a discussion where a consensus was established. I can't find such a discussion (note: I don't claim there isn't any, I only state I can't find it). So please tell me where your working method is covered. --Sb008 (talk) 00:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that the Module documentation is only intended to explain how the module needs to be called to display a certain table, it is limited to the technical part of it. This is because different projects might have different usage and those projects should determine how it is used for their respective sports. Although the module arose from football tables, it is now more widely used. Football tables have a a long standing convention on how to use these letters, although I do not think it was ever codified, there might be an excess of previous discussions in which some kind of consensus was formed though. CRwikiCA  <i style="color:navy">talk</i> 02:19, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that the Module documentation is only intended to explain how the module needs to be called to display a certain table, it is limited to the technical part of it. This is because different projects might have different usage and those projects should determine how it is used for their respective sports. Although the module arose from football tables, it is now more widely used. Football tables have a a long standing convention on how to use these letters, although I do not think it was ever codified, there might be an excess of previous discussions in which some kind of consensus was formed though. CRwikiCA  <i style="color:navy">talk</i> 02:19, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

LinkedIn as a source
Someone added the staff back on Leeds United F.C. using LinkedIn as a source. Wasn't there something against using that website to cite? Govvy (talk) 10:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Primary and unreliable source. I can open a fake account with fake name and fake position; or even the information in LinkedIn is true, it is not usually citing someone CV. Matthew_hk   t  c  11:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I would actually rather have no source than LinkedIn. Completely unreliable.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It fails WP:BLPPRIMARY. GiantSnowman 11:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * k, I couldn't remember the conversation last time about it, we did remove all the linkedIn staff last time on the Leeds page, but for some reason they got put back. Govvy (talk) 11:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Notable Games
Participants may be interested in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports AIR<b style="color: green;">corn</b> (talk) 08:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Squad sections in under-23/academy articles
Hi, reviving this post from archive 114 (I haven't deleted it there) because it got no responses at the time and I think it's worth talking about! As with last time, apologies about the length. This might also help with some off the stuff about player inclusion on main page articles discussed under "Manchester City F.C." in archive 116.

Hypothesis/proposed solution
Users aren't served well when U23/academy article pages use the squad template that's found on the main club articles. Users will be visiting these pages principally to see how their side's development players are progressing. How old they are, how many players they have in a certain position, are they internationally capped, a professional yet etc. They won't be looking to click around numerous articles with little information in them - and indeed a lot of these players won't have articles.

This sort of summary can frequently be found in season articles for first-team players, but development players don't tend to be included. And we have these articles that can service this need (and indeed, if they don't what's the point of them?).

So my suggestion would be to provide a single sortable table including all academy scholars (as these players will frequently be in the under-23 side pretty quickly) and a selection of any players the club has who are under the age of 23 (more on this in a sec).

Potential columns

 * Name, nationality, birthday/age, position would be fairly standard, I think
 * Squad number (not sure of value in this context)
 * Professional status (scholar, scholar with professional deal, professional - an alternative might be a "professional?" yes/no column)
 * Highest international representation
 * First-team appearances (and goals?)
 * Out on loan (I'd suggest including players that are out in the main table, because users will still want to see them in relation to their peers)
 * A general notes column could provide some flexibility
 * Maybe a bit more difficult to source and not sure you'd want this information patchily added to a notes column (but might be good if can be sourced in full): Contract expiry, place of birth, joined date (and from?)

The closest existing examples of what I'm talking about that I'm aware of are Leeds United F.C. Reserves and Youth Team and Everton F.C. Reserves and Academy. With the latter, I had a play with adding some of the stuff I've been talking about above/below (some of it has been changed since, hence the URL link).

Inclusion criteria

 * Show every academy scholar and any professional under the age of 23. Means no judgement calls, but does mean that you're potentially including players who've graduated to the first-team or who've been signed from other clubs for the first-team, potentially for millions of pounds. You could potentially mitigate for this by including a first-team appearances column, or adding notes for any player that's signed for a transfer fee. A benefit of this approach is that, even if you're showing a few players who have for the most part moved on, you're still showing how many academy players have made it to the current first-team.
 * Show every academy scholar any professional player under the age of 23 who doesn't meet a certain criteria. The most obvious would be some sort of appearance for the first-team - if you were doing this I'd suggest league starts as a brief sub appearance/a start in a cup might not be representative. But even then, you could make a few appearances under one manager then disappear back into the development sides, make a start in the final game of the season. A less extreme way of separating these players out might be to list them in prose above the table (as I did as a quick one in the example above) or place them in a separate table alongside the main one. But I'd be concerned about this approach being rather original research-y.
 * Show every academy academy scholar or professional player listed in the relevant sections on the official website. The problem with this one is... official websites are often terrible and/or infrequently updated. The Everton one, for example, includes some first-team players in the under-23 section but not others, a few are duplicated. It also includes at least one player who isn't with them anymore. You get the sense these sections are updated once in pre-season and then left for a year. So I'd be reticent using them as a definitive source.

Summary/discussion
I think this proposal would provide an improved selection of information for the users. My inclination would be go with including loan players and go with all under-23 players, with a combination of table information/prose that marks out players who may have progressed beyond this stage. It'd be good to reach some sort of consensus on this idea, not because I think these sorts of articles are ever going to be completely standardised, but just so whether we agree it's something to work towards. Cheers, HornetMike (talk) 17:40, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * A lot of this proposed information would be difficult to source. I suggest use the standard squad template like in the first-team. GiantSnowman 18:53, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree with GS, this is an encyclopedia not a football annual. I am not a great fan of the ever expanding bloat that is going on with some of the existing club articles. The reserves / U23 is just another example of another bloaty bit of flabby English football. Koncorde (talk) 13:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Stub, empty or should be deleted
I have seen a few articles such as 1943 Santos FC season. They're tagged as stubs, but there's only one piece of useful information in the article. Should we be nominating such for deletion? Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:00, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * We don't even have 1943 Campeonato Paulista (= pt:Campeonato Paulista de Futebol de 1943, RSSSF) redirect unless people can dig out the squad list with reliable source. Matthew_hk   t  c  20:14, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think these articles have any value at all. Them being blue-linked now really gives a wrong impression. -Koppapa (talk) 13:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed - there's no such thing as 'automatic' notability if they can never be populated with content/notability shown. GiantSnowman 13:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Rita Guarino
Please take note that Rita Guarino has just won the Italian women's league as coach of Juventus Women, the female squad of Juventus F.C. of Turin. -- <span style="font-family:Bookman Old Style,Palatino Linotype,Times New Roman;font-size:8pt;color:#C00000">SERGIO  <span style="font-family:Bookman Old Style,Palatino Linotype,Times New Roman;font-size:8pt;color:#000000">aka the Black Cat 08:21, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * feel free to update the article to reflect this, citing a reliable source. GiantSnowman 11:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * , Ok, but please then have a review on my edit, because I am not a native speaker of English. I just reported the thing here for someone to update the article :-) -- <span style="font-family:Bookman Old Style,Palatino Linotype,Times New Roman;font-size:8pt;color:#C00000">SERGIO  <span style="font-family:Bookman Old Style,Palatino Linotype,Times New Roman;font-size:8pt;color:#000000">aka the Black Cat 18:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

New player signings
Where should we add player transfers after a club season is over? (With over I mean all official matches played, not 30 June.) Should we add transfers to the 2017–18 season or to the 2018–19 season? SLBedit (talk) 19:07, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * 2018-19 for me as they won't make their debut(s) somewhere else before the new season and most contracts run until 30 June. Kante4 (talk) 19:15, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Depends what country we're talking about. Hack (talk) 16:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Evidence of player receiving medal
Hi. I recently added honours to the honours section of Mikel Arteta, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gabriel Paulista and Santi Cazorla. With each edit I added a source to a video showing the players receiving medals on the podium at Wembley. The videos actually show the players getting handed the medals. However, reverted them and said "Youtube videos of people holding medals really isn't sufficient". For that reason I want to ask: what is sufficient? Surely evidence of the player receiving a medal means that he got the honour? If not then how do you define a player getting an honour? Because John Terry was not in the squad for the 2012 Champions League final but he has the honour on his page presumably due to the photos/videos showing him receive a medal. Hashim-afc (talk) 19:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * A video uploaded by an unofficial account to a video-sharing site isn't even close to meeting WP:RS, no matter what the video may depict.
 * With regards to FA Cup medals: per the FA Cup rules (accessed under the "Key Information" section near the bottom of the page), "The Association shall present 40 medals to playing staff and officials of both Clubs in the Final." It is almost impossible to ascertain who actually received medals, especially historically when there wasn't video coverage of practically everything a professional footballer does.
 * For that reason, I am inclined toward only listing this competition as an honour if a player appeared in the matchday squad for the final.
 * With regards to John Terry's Champions League honour, it's included as RSSSF, very much a reliable source, lists him as part of a winning squad. Whether something similar exists for historical FA Cup winners, I do not know, although I highly doubt it. Mattythewhite (talk) 19:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I see. Is using any type of video as a source not acceptable then? Because there are videos from the FA Cup's official account which show the same thing as the unofficial accounts' videos. There may be also clips from the BBC website showing the trophy lift although I haven't checked that yet. It also says on WP:RS page: "audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources".
 * I've seen many people say that players should have honours on their page if there is evidence they received a medal, whereas you are inclined that they should have the honour only if they were in the squad. This shows that there isn't really a consensus among editors on the issue, I think we should try to reach a definitive consensus about it with many other editors. Hashim-afc (talk) 19:42, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Regardless of videos on YouTube, you can cite DVDs, so if you add the right details down of the football match DVD with the correct ISBN that would be accapted. Govvy (talk) 19:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * For Arteta at least, I would agree with Hashim, the club site says he won the cup twice, and the video CLEARLY shows the player in question receiving a medal during the ceremony on the second occasion. I don't see why it matters whether the video is official or not, the physical evidence is there, I mean are we somehow suggesting the footage was doctored to falsely depict Arteta? It took me 5 seconds to find a video from the official Arsenal acocunt showing him cavorting on the pitch with the medal, so that surely negates the official aspect. If there is no available evidence which demonstrates the winning of the honour, fine, it can't be included. In this case, the body controlling the honour (the club) clearly wished for him to receive it, and the video evidence (which would surely be admissable in court) shows that he did get the medal. Crowsus (talk) 19:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. I also found this article saying "Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain won the FA Cup three times with Arsenal", and this article saying "During that time he [Gabriel Paulista] won two FA Cup trophies under Arsene Wenger, but despite being in the matchday squad for the 2015 final, says that there is no bigger game for Arsenal than the north London derby". I feel like these articles combined with the videos is surely enough to count those FA Cups as honours for these two players. Furthermore, the video I used to add the 2017 Community Shield to Cazorla and Gabriel's pages was from a verified channel (Fox Soccer) that was one of the broadcasters of the match. This surely makes the video reliable too as it's not from an unofficial account. If you don't use videos because they could theoretically be doctored, surely we can't use photographs too as they could be doctored. Personally I think the articles and videos I've provided together is enough to count them as honours and I've now added those sources to the pages. What do you think ? Hashim-afc (talk) 10:51, 23 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Youtube itself is not a reliable source. But the original TV program is a good source, however, it is primary source. People may find official FA Cup DVD in the store and amazon, but watching the DVD and make interpretation, not sure it is WP:OR or not. It is not so simple as watching the match highlight and concluded the shirt name of the player or who is substituted actually. Matthew_hk   t  c  19:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Sources like the mirror and goal.com are not reliable, nor are online videos. You need solid, written sources to verify who got a trophy or not. A YouTube video of someone on the winners’ podium doesn’t mean anything. If you can find official club sourcing or reliable sources like you did with arteta then they can stand, otherwise there is no concrete proof. Also, isn’t this like the 5th time recently that the same thread has been made? It’s even listed above at the top of the page in a separate post! Davefelmer (talk) 12:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Why does it even matter if a player got physically given a chunk of metal or not? The title of the section is not "medals" it is "honours". OZOO (t) (c) 12:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed - It should simply be noted if they were classed with the honour. YouTube in itself is not a reliable source, but a reliable source posting the video is fair gain.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:07, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * - It matters because many editors believe that receiving a physical medal means the player received the honour and not receiving one means he/she didn't....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Watch the videos properly Davefelmer, it's not just them on the podium like you said. It's them actually receiving the medal. The video shows them being handed the medal and them holding it which I'm assuming you did not pick up on. Plus the source isn't YouTube the website, the source is the YouTube channel that posted it i.e. Fox Sports (which is a verified channel that broadcasted the game) and the official FA account. WP:RS says: "audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources". Are Fox Sports and the FA not a reputable party that has broadcast/distributed the video? Surely they are? The thread is made often because we need to establish a consensus on this issue, three different opinions on what constitutes an honour for a player have already been brought up in this discussion alone so we need to discuss this more, and this discussion is more about video evidence hence why it's a separate discussion. Also, is there a consensus that Goal.com is not a reliable source or is that something you decided yourself? Hashim-afc (talk) 14:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * On top of the videos I added a source from Arsenal.com for Chamberlain and from Sky News for Gabriel. Hashim-afc (talk) 15:00, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * In case you guys haven't watched the videos, here are the screenshots of them:
 * Chamberlain with FA Cup 2014 medal: here
 * Gabriel with FA Cup 2017 medal: here
 * Gabriel and Cazorla with Community Shield 2017 medals: here
 * Only the second one is from an unofficial account but the Sky News source supports that one anyway. Hashim-afc (talk) 15:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Pictures of people with medals aren't conclusive or reliable of them actually receiving an award. We need something firmer. That's basic stuff. GiantSnowman 17:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I can't think of anything 'firmer' than actual footage of a player being handed an award, uploaded by an official association or broadcaster. What do you suggest is firmer than that? Hashim-afc (talk) 17:41, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * A reliable source saying he has won the award/honour. GiantSnowman 17:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Is Goal.com a reliable source? Hashim-afc (talk) 17:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say yes. GiantSnowman 18:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I dont think goal.com is reliable, but in any case videos are not definitive at all. For instance Arsenal's official site credits Cazorla with 2 FA Cups and 2 Community Shields, published just a few days ago: https://www.arsenal.com/news/santi-cazorla-leaves-club. This clearly contradicts the video of him getting one on the podium for a seperate Shield triumph, and shows why written reliable sources are most important. Davefelmer (talk) 22:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And still arsenal.com is a primary source. primary source is good as citation for routine thing only. For those contradiction between video footage (primary source) and other primary source and/or secondary source, it seem it would drag into some WP:OR judgement, or solved by this project form a consensus on arbitrary inclusion/exclusion criteria. Matthew_hk   t  c  23:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)


 * For the arbitrary criteria, i think it is obvious to set up for Premier League, WP:RS + appearances that pass the criteria that written in the regulation to make him eligible to a medal. For FA Cup, as it it did not have min appearance in regulation, either setting the criteria to RS+ all players in the final lineup including unused bench, or RS + all player that made one appearance in the cup that season, or stick to the current consensus RS+ all players that actually played in the final. Matthew_hk   t  c  19:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I added this from FourFourTwo as evidence that Alan Hansen got a League Cup medal in 1982 although he missed the final. I take it this is OK as it is a reliable source, and although it's an interview we shouldn't assume people lie about such trivial things. He mentions they're all on display at Liverpool's museum so a source from there might back it up. Harambe Walks (talk) 15:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)


 * an interview that published in a magazine, is still somewhat a primary source. The problem of interview and autobiography is, human memory is not reliable. Matthew_hk   t  c  19:06, 26 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I think you're confusing someone stating "I think I had another medal, maybe the league Cup, anyway they're all in the museum" with "I have 17 medals, not 16, and all 17 are in the museum". That's a pretty big difference between an uncertain memory and a definite assertion. Also it's published in a reputable magazine so someone else has looked at it and is happy it can be in their publication, or are we just assuming that those are unreliable too since they involve the input of humans with dodgy memories? Crowsus (talk) 19:46, 26 May 2018 (UTC)


 * interview is a primary source and i can't verify it unless go to museum and have a look, so it seem tricky to use it as WP:primary source. And i doubt news reporter would do it (to museum) to verify. If the interview was acted as a citation for a statement "X player who played for Y team in FA Cup but missed the finals, claimed he still won a personal medal", would be sufficient, but definite say yes he had a medal without any supporting secondary source, seem a no-no. Some interview that some player claimed he signed for X club, or he is the relative of Y player, were later rebutted by other secondary source or the club itself, so one single interview is not enough even the player may be "football legend" or some sort. Matthew_hk   t  c  04:56, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Ongoing edit war on Template:UEFA Champions League winners
Users involved are and. Edit warring started on 11 September 2017. SLBedit (talk) 22:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * FC Steaua București (Fotbal Club FCSB) is considered by UEFA to hold the 1986 Champions League title. CSA Steaua București (football) was founded in 2017 and has no honours, but TPTB keeps adding it as the UCL winner, among others. Check CSA Steaua București (football), and you'll see for yourself. I did not meant to get in an edit war, but nobody else does anything to stop him.8Dodo8 (talk · contribs) 09:56, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Interesting situation regarding the club, but technically it's still one club isn't it? Why are there two separate articles for one club? Govvy (talk) 10:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * No, FCSB and CSA are separate teams. FCSB is in the top division and CSA is in the fourth division. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * A very unique situation in this case. Surely we can only link to the team that has the information regarding the campaign in which it was won included? CSA Steaua București (football) currently has that it was founded in 2017, so would be very confusing (As it is to me) that it won a title in 1986. 10:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Looking at this again, both articles link to History of FC Steaua București, which is beyond confusing.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:21, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It still doesn't make sense to me, I don't understand how two different teams that operate today have the same history. There is an extreme lack of clarification between the two clubs. Govvy (talk) 10:29, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Well both claim to be successors of the old Steaua. The situation is pretty complicated and in court for a long time, so i think linking to the same history article is a good compromise. -Koppapa (talk) 10:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I think at the very least, it should be the main thing in the lede of the history article. Heck, I'd argue Steaua București needs to be edited from a disambiguation page, into an article (Or WP:OUTLINE) regarding the court case/history dispute. I don't think this really is an arguement regarding the champions league template, it needs to be looked at more objectively to avoid confusion, which I still have.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:44, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * It should apply for both users for topic ban on FCSB and CSA Steaua București. It just endless edit war between them on the articles and templates that around the two teams. Matthew_hk   t  c  15:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The short version is, CSA Steaua (the army sports club) owned the football team until 1998, then separated it into an affiliated non-profit of some kind, dodgy businessman Becali got involved and in 2003 turned it into a private enterprise run by him without consent from the army, courts have decided that current 'Steaua' has no rights to the name and that's why they are now called FCSB in the Europa League etc. Meanwhile the army restarted their football team (new CSA Steaua) last year in the bottom tier.

The dispute is over who own the impressive history and honours prior to 2003; both teams claim them on their websites but to be honest, in my opinion neither has a particularly good good claim: if FCSB has been ruled a different club, how can they claim honours won before their existence, and the new CSA is only one year old, so can they really claim honours won by a team with the same name and parent organisation which ceased activity 15 years earlier (it must have done so if FCSB was the only Steaua team from 2003 until 2017)?

At the moment, UEFA considers FCSB to be the successor to 1986-era Steaua. So that should probably be the article linked to on the template. An alternative could be to link to the History article, but I realise that's a very unusual way to do it. Just to confuse matters further, I understand the army possesses the physical trophies. Crowsus (talk) 15:57, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Based on that description the football club has continuously existed as the same entity under different names: first as the football section of CSA Steaua (the army sports club, 1947-1998), then as an affliliated non-profit (1998-2003), and subsequently as a private club (2003-present) that is now called FCSB . As there is continuity, it seems reasonable to consider it the same club and winner of the 1986 cup. This is the UEFA official position. Until 2017 there was no confusion, so why should the creation of a new football club by CSA change the ownership of the cup win? The new club has no connection with the cup winners apart from the same founding sports club, seventy years later.
 * Sometime the successor clubs in a footballing sense and legal sense gets convoluted. If we look at, say, Leeds United or Rangers they are clearly different legal entities, but are considered to own the history by football authorities. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">  Jts1882 &#124; talk 16:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * That's a very fair argument. The complication is that the people who involved with CSA Steaua consider Becali to have stolen their club's identity and there are legal proceedings ongoing in respect of who owns what part of Steaua. At the moment it is only the brand that the FCSB are banned from using, but if it is ruled that their owners had no right to ever associate themselves with the historic club, it would place in doubt their ownership of the trophies won pre-2003. Sadly, it may turn out that neither entity is allowed to claim them and 'old Steaua' ceases to exist in a present context, only as a historic entity. Crowsus (talk) 17:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I was wondering if there should be three articles, one for the old club and the other two for the next generation. Also remember MK Dons returned silverware to AFC Wimbledon, I think!! Govvy (talk) 16:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I suggested that a while ago but got shot down from both sides, as both consider themselves to be the successor so don't want to see a visible split in the history. Crowsus (talk) 17:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The "UEFA" stand point was an over interpretation of UEFA.com factsheet, the factsheet often wrong in the past for those transfer fee or missing and adding honor. So far UEFA won't given official ruling (those real ruling that can appeal to Court of Arbitration for Sport) on such mess of succession. However, wikipedia should only acted as a summary of external source, so it seem sufficient enough on the re-founded CSA Steaua football section, stating the club claiming the previous honor and history, but not extensively the same content on two articles. Fork out the content of old CSA Steaua as part of an article History of FC Steaua may be a solution, but it need to sort out the edit war that the original contributor choose to blanking FC Steaua and c&p content to CSA. Or lock those article from edit except admin may be a "solution" for such divided fansbase of the same club. Matthew_hk   t  c  05:07, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Manchester United F.C. little edit-war
Can an admin sort out User:Hashim-afc and User:Davefelmer as they have been on this little edit-war on the Man U article, well that what is seems to me, as they revert each others edits since 14 May. Govvy (talk) 12:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It seems that User:Davefelmer is in the wrong here (he seems to think EFL is a sponsor), so he'll be blocked if he reverts again. Number   5  7  12:41, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Re the content that is in dispute, is it not standard practice to include all the official names a competition had at the time the club won it? So I would go for something like "Football League/EFL Cup" or "Football League Cup/EFL Cup". Mattythewhite (talk) 14:33, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Although there has previously been disagreements over whether competitions should be listed under their current name in an honours list if a club had won it under its former name, my understanding was that there was general agreement that if a club had won a competition under the current name, it should be listed as such, even if the club had also won it under the former name. Number   5  7  14:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I was always under the opinion you can list the League Cup under it's current sponsor name and as the League Cup. Another thing that gets my beef is this situation around what you call a double, there are editors listing two cup wins as a double. When in-fact a double is classed as a league and cup win. Yet, despite some editors are listing the doubles incorrectly. Govvy (talk) 15:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It should never be listed under its sponsored name as far as I'm aware, as I believe there is a consensus to avoid them wherever possible (as for stadiums and leagues). Number   5  7  20:41, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

No idea why this was brought here nor what this notion of a ban is for considering I reverted the other user only once on the United article, and multiple other editors have reverted him in the past few days too so it isnt just between me and him. Evidently from the discussion here as well it isnt seen as a clear-cut issue. In terms of the debate in general, I dont find Number 57's argument for listing a comp under the current name instead of the general name to be true at all as its not like anyone who won the League Cup in the late 90s and early 00s has it listed as the "Worthington Cup" for instance. It is just the League Cup, and personally I feel thats better as its more easily identifiable to readers, who might not know it under all its different incarnations, and thus might not know what is being referred to. Davefelmer (talk) 16:30, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh and furthermore, it is listed as the League Cup for most other clubs including Arsenal and Liverpool. So why should United's say EFL anyways? Whats the consistent standard that should be applied here? Davefelmer (talk) 16:32, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's typical to refer to subjects by contemporary names. Since United won the EFL Cup in 2016/17, after the Football League changed its name to the English Football League, it makes sense to refer to it as the EFL Cup in all instances relating to that time period. However, I disagree with the "double" of EFL Cup and Europa League being mentioned at all, since I've yet to find any reliable sources that also do this. – PeeJay 17:47, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * OK but what about in general club articles? On the season review page for 2016/17 for instance that would make sense, but the Man United general page? They've won the League Cup 5 times and on only one of those occasions was it called the EFL Cup. So should all clubs change League Cup to EFL Cup now? And what about all the players that won it when it was the Worthington Cup or Milk Cup? They all have it listed as the league cup in their honours, do we go back and change all of those too? It seems much simpler to just call it the League Cup for general club pages, and reference it by what it was called in a particular season in things that only cover such a period, such as season review articles. Davefelmer (talk) 20:41, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Milk Cup and Worthington Cup were sponsored names, the name was still Football League Cup at that time. In contrast, EFL Cup is an actual change of the tournament's name rather than a sponsored name. Man Utd has won it while it was called EFL Cup so it makes sense to call it EFL Cup on their page. Other teams that only won it while it was called Football League Cup has that name on their pages. Hashim-afc (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As Matty has suggested, it makes sense to use "Football League Cup/EFL Cup" for Man United and other clubs that have won it during both eras. Those that have only won it in the 'League Cup era' (regardless of sponsor) would use "Football League Cup". Nzd   (talk)  21:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * This is the sensible solution and consistent with how other competitions that changed name are handled. Two examples can be found in the section of the article in question: "First Division/Premier League" and "European Cup/UEFA Champions League". The unambiguous solution is to change it to "League Cup/EFL Cup".
 * I'll note that on other club pages you can find "First Division/Premier League" and "Second Division/Championship" even when the clubs have only won them under one of the names. This strikes me as inaccurate. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 06:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Deviating from the original discussion, but it's relevant nonetheless. Just had to make some changes to the Arsenal F.C. page, where I've noticed the honours format is very inconsistent. The biggest bugbear I have is the "gold trophy", recognition of a fine achievement but it doesn't need to be mentioned in the lead, and using the same image twice in the article borders on the self-indulgent. Parity please, let the readers think and achievements speak for themselves. Lemonade51 (talk) 11:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I was just checking on my watchlist for my wiki-fix before I decided to get some sleep, it feels like another edit-war is arising on the Man U article! Govvy (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Join
How do I join this group? --IAWI (talk) 12:32, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * You are but here you can enter your name. Just put me in there, forgot that. Kante4 (talk) 13:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Sock user above --Quek157 (talk) 18:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * heh, didn't know there was a list, the Josh person with all these sock-puppets must be really bored doing all that work to annoy people!! Govvy (talk) 18:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * playing with puppets seems fun to someQuek157 (talk) 09:32, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I am bored to report him to WP:SPI, but I am willing to do it if I find socks. Hhkohh (talk) 09:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * how exactly to fill SPI via tw, keep on getting the sock and the master wrong. Quek157 (talk) 10:14, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I always use Sockpuppet investigations, just fill the blank with the name of the alleged master, and start filling the form and click save/publish. Matthew_hk   t  c  01:38, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

FLRC for List of Vancouver Whitecaps FC players
I have nominated List of Vancouver Whitecaps FC players for featured list removal here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured list criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks; editors may declare to "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.

I was hoping to get some community input on whether or not this article should be de-listed. This is my first time doing this so I hope I don't annoy too many people by posting here if I'm not supposed to. Cheers. Jay eyem (talk) 04:19, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Paul Scholes
keeps adding into the intro of the Paul Scholes article that "he is one of the most decorated footballers in history". In my view such a statement is very vague and not necessary in this intro. Davefelmer supports the use of this term by saying that "7th most trophies out of millions of players" makes him "one of" the most decorated. This logic is flawed in my opinion because then where is the limit? Should the player with the 100th most trophies have that statement too seeing as he is 100th out of millions of players? There were discussions before involving Davefelmer about using this term on the Sir Alex Ferguson page which led to the conclusion that it should not be used. For that reason I removed the term but I've now done so three times and don't want to start an edit war. I'd like to hear your opinions on whether this is actually appropriate for the intro of the article. He also used this term to say that Scholes was the most decorated player in English history, which I've changed to "won more trophies than any other English player in history" as this is much clearer to me and less vague. However can we be sure there aren't amateur English players that have won more trophies? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well. Hashim-afc (talk) 19:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Mate stop putting every disagreement between us on the project page. It can be discussed on talk pages first. The support for such a statement on Scholes's article is from several articles from the like of the Telegraph and BBC asserting him to be such (all reliable sources) and a source listing the most decorated players ever having him in the top 10 which makes the statement a valid one. Furthermore, if various players in various sports can be attributed statuses like "one of the greatest ever" or "one of the best left backs ever", what is so different from saying "one of the most decorated ever"? And what do you mean amateur players that have won more trophies? How does that even work? Davefelmer (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Also, what you are saying about the Alex Ferguson article isnt true. Firstly, the debate as I recall was years ago and consensus and opinions change in that time, and secondly, it was about the phrase "most successful" which was argued against because the concept of success was not universal and there wasnt a definitive, reliable source that said that exact phrasing at the time. This meanwhile is about "one of the most decorated" which is totally different and is actually the preferred phrasing that was decided to be used on the Ferguson article, which is still there now. Davefelmer (talk) 20:50, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't put our first disagreement on the project page, but since someone else put that here I decided I may as well put the Scholes one here too. The project page will get a lot more opinions than the talk page would anyway. As you can see at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 99 and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 106, both these discussions were heavily talking about the term 'decorated' so I don't know what you're talking about. Many people were disagreeing with it including User:Koncorde who said: "Decorated is not the same as Trophies ('decorated' is closer to 'accolades', so may include monthly awards, yearly, national and international awards)", and User:Jmorrison230582 who said "Claiming that one manager or another is the most decorated is inherently POV because it depends on which trophies you count (or not) towards a total" which User:Super Nintendo Chalmers agreed with. As far as I can see, it does not say anywhere on the Ferguson article that he is the most decorated manager. Anyway I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking for others opinions as I don't want to edit war. Hashim-afc (talk) 21:10, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * My opinion has not changed. For subjective opinions claiming someone is the "most" or "one of the most" then it should be done while ascribing it to the person responsible for that opinion. For instance wikipedia saying "Paul Scholes is one of the most decorated and successful footballers ever" is very different to "Scholes has been described by X as one of the most successful footballers ever, and won X trophies and X individual awards during a 20 year career in the top flight of English football. He was regarded by X as the best English player of his generation". The first one is bollocks and shouldn't be used. The second one is encyclopedic and can be referenced.
 * The Pelé article for instance is very clear in the distinction between what is factual, and what is a claim from a specific reliable, authoritative and notable source. Koncorde (talk) 22:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Fully agree with this. Hashim-afc (talk) 14:01, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:PEACOCK is the official Manual Of Style policy, and it says we should avoid these statements. We're meant to be precise with facts and let them speak for themselves.
 * On the other statement about Scholes winning the most trophies, I'm also a bit suspicious. It has citations, but they don't state how broad their data are, so, like says, they might not consider amateur players, etc. What's more, | this source says Beckham has won an equal number of trophies. Madshurtie (talk) 00:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is source-based content. If numerous sources attribute and describe someone in a certain way, and they are valid sources, what right do editors have in saying it shouldnt count based on arbitrary means. What does this amateur nonsense even mean? The list gives no indication that it doesnt include amateur players so why would you presume that? In any case I'd think being a professional footballer would be an established cut off point for what footballer has won most! Secondly, so what about articles like Paulo Maldini and Roberto Carlos amongst many others where they are attributed "grestest of X" or "one of the greatest X" without it being stated by who it is being attributed? There are so many examples of this it would be impossible to list them all, so are they all wrong and we must go through wiki to establish the norm being proposed here? And if those are all okay to stand, what is the difference between that phrasing and this? "One of the most decorated" to "one of the greatest" - it is the same concept. The most successful English player is then backed by sources, even including that new one with Beckham having won as many, it doesnt change that no player has won more than Scholes.


 * Furthermore, I'm a bit suspicious by the activities of Madshurtie and ; apart from Hashim branching out into Iraqi football, both users seem to go on a select number of English football pages identical to each other, always meet on the same talk pages to discuss virtually the exact same ideas, always argue for each other across other talk pages and use very similar verbiage, as well as appearing to support the same team...Davefelmer (talk) 02:10, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I suggest you strike out any such accusations they are not going to get you any traction here.
 * Reading Maldini's intro, it is quite clear that after the initial statement it then presents a dozen sources for the numerous different awards specific to that claim or the general idea that he is one of the greatest. Koncorde (talk) 06:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah sorry guys, I've been Hashim-afc's sockpuppet all along. :-D if you want to investigate us, you're meant to do it at WP:SPI, not on the football project. You have to provide convincing evidence from our edit history or they won't bother investigating. Showing two editors have slightly overlapping areas of interest and occasionally agree on talk pages probably won't do unfortunately. Madshurtie (talk) 08:40, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And just read the MOS policy, Davefelmer. We're not trying to create a new norm, we're just following the existing policy for the whole site. If other articles don't follow official policy, then, yes, they should all be changed.
 * The Maldini one looks OK because it says "is widely regarded as one of the greatest...", with citations showing by whom. That makes it clear that it is the opinion of others and Wikipedia is neutral on the topic. The Carlos one just says "Considered one of the best...", which should be changed because it implies the opinion is universal, which is unverifiable. Madshurtie (talk) 08:58, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Roberto Carlos lead now changed. Madshurtie (talk) 14:35, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If you think we're the same person, start a sockpuppet investigation. The fact that 90% of my edits on Wikipedia are to do with Iraqi and Arab football which Madshurtie has never made a single edit in should work great for your argument. Maybe the reason why me and Madshurtie agree on lots of things is because we actually edit with neutrality rather than trying to make our club and its players the greatest to ever exist like you constantly do with Manchester United. You've been adding things like this to Man Utd articles for years: . You've insulted and accused Liverpool fan editors of being envious of Man Utd's success: . And you removed the following sentence from the Phil Neal (Liverpool legend) article: "He is one of the most successful English players of all time" despite adding the exact same sentences to Man Utd players' articles before which shows your bias towards Man Utd and against Liverpool. Granted these edits were from 2015 and 2016 and it seemed you finally stopped making such disruptive edits but here you are in 2018 trying to add the same sentences to the Man Utd article  and now to the Scholes article, and are now accusing editors of sockpuppeting with no evidence. Honestly hard to believe. I'm not perfect but when I make mistakes I actually learn from them. You clearly don't. Please, drop the bias and start acting properly. This is an encyclopedia not a competition between clubs. I'm only saying this because you have accused me of something with no evidence, in a discussion that is not related to sockpuppetry at all. Now I'd like to actually stick to the topic. Hashim-afc (talk) 13:57, 21 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The state of using stuff from August 2015 as a baseline for someone's consistency since, 3 years later. Absolutely ridiculous. And you are the one that has chosen to focus on the last line rather than the basis of the argument before. OK, you changed Roberto Carlos' page, but I can think of at least 10 other pages off the top of my head for football and other sportsmen where the same principle applies. So should all those be changed as well? Is this the now established standard? And what about the point of wikipedia, that it is source-based? If multiple reliable sources state something, what business do we have deciding on whether to use it or whether to use its info differently than what is said in the source (i.e. multiple sources saying someone is the best at something changed to "widely regarded as one of the best")? I dont quite get the rational. In terms of success-based sources, that is easier to measure as you are comparing raw trophy numbers, which the sources in question do without attributing any arbitrary status to them as sometimes seen ("major", "minor" etc), thus its perfectly reasonable to be used along with the other one provided here and they all show Scholes as most decorated ahead of any english player. It is also referenced in other reliable sources present. Thats a final point in regard to the 2015 edits brought up by Hashim, ok I might have been a bit biased in my selection of players to add sources to, but the sources themselves were reliable in adding info to player pages, and have now been reinforced with multiple more reliable sources. So what difference does it even make? Anyone is free to find statistical data reinforcing someone's career success and adding it to articles if it is backed by reliable sources, if I was a Bristol Rovers fan and added it would it make a difference? Davefelmer (talk) 14:56, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Unfotunately Dave your editing history precedes your current editing history, and anyone who may look at your current history may see constructive edits and a significant improvement in many ways, but your attitude has barely changed in tone when you talk to other users and you do still push POV edits because you do not get fundamentals of how sourcing should work on occasion.
 * The greatest of anything is rarely a simple universal agreement. It is often clouded by club bias, national bias, historical bias, etc and multiple sources often carry their own bias independent of that. Any wikipedia article that states a player is the definitive "greatest" anything is wrong. We reflect the facts of reliable sources, and we reflect the opinions of reliable sources. However even if tomorrow an award was made called "FIFA greatest footballer ever", it would still be described as "player X was awarded the Greater Footballer Ever award by FIFA", rather than an explicit statement that "X player is the greatest footballer". Making subjective claims about a player such as "most decorated" in particular is utter conjecture; just defining 'decorated' itself is problematic with few sources actually explaining a single metric for their opinion, and this may be equally refuted or disputed by an equally authoritative source with their own measures.
 * Some other sports, in contrast to football, often have specific metrics that they use to define the "greatest", or even hold regular award ceremonies or make specific career awards. Retiring player numbers, special trophies and titles, etc may all reflect the "greatest". But unless this sport has only a single universal source for its evaluations (i.e. the NFL which only has the NFL as a basis of its claims) then any rival organisation or federation may dispute the claim.
 * Some sporting teams meanwhile honour specific players with "their greatest ever". Again this is their subjective opinion, and even though it is unlikely another source would have a significant opinion on X being the best player ever for Y (unless it was contentious) it is still only an opinion attributable to the team. The 100 Players Who Shook The Kop would be a fine example for instance, as an evolving audit of opinions that will change and reflect more recent opinions over historic success (Lucas Leiva at 36?!?). Koncorde (talk) 15:31, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of using "most successful", "most decorated", etc. in any article as it smacks a bit of WP:PEACOCK. In the instance of Paul Scholes I think that it would be sensible to simply state the major honours he's won in the lead, broken down by competition - I think that he holds the record for number of English league titles won by an English player (and is behind Ryan Giggs for all players) which would definitely be worth noting in the lead (if I'm correct!). Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:28, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

If you are willing to say "most titles out of any English player" why then is "most trophies of any English player" not fair to use? The sources clearly show not to distinguish between certain types of honours ie "major" honours so why is it potentially biased to include that, when every trophy won is counted in the measure? Davefelmer (talk) 19:19, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Nobody is objecting to "most trophies". They are objecting to you saying he is the most decorated (which is not qualitatively equal), or the greatest (which is a subjective claim). Koncorde (talk) 19:39, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit suspicious about "most trophies" because the media generally has a top-flight bias, so these counts probably only include top-flight trophies. Friendly trophies are probably excluded too, which isn't accounted for by the wording. That said, "winning trophies" is clearer to most readers than being "decorated". My suggestion is to word it something like "most top-flight trophies" or "most officially organised top-fight trophies". Madshurtie (talk) 22:17, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Most officially organised trophies or top flight trophies in these cases sounds needlessly wordy in my opinion, of course friendlies would be excluded as they are uncompetitive. Nobody thinks of literal friendly games as trophies so readers would not be confused. Davefelmer (talk) 23:18, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The clearest, and most NPOV method, is to list the honours separately (e.g. "...has won x English League titles, a record for an English player, y FA Cups, and z European Cups", or whatever the details are). This could be done such that only "major" honours are included in the lead, without making serious judgement on what constitutes a "major" honour, and allowing all honours/achievements to be noted later in the article. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 08:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * "Major" honours is literally one of the most subjective things out there, it has no real meaning to it and is just something the English press sometimes write to better define what is "worth" winning. Doesnt strike me as NPOV. Davefelmer (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Exactly, which is why phrases like "most decorated" are unhelpful. It is very possible that a slew of non-league players out there have won far more than Paul Scholes, just competitions that are less prestigious.Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 08:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It’s not just saying most decorated, it is specifying in terms of what (most trophies). The rest is just you presupposing something without evidence yourself. The sources in question state to be encompassing all trophies so there is no reason to suppose they aren’t doing so. Furthermore they are backed by other reliable sources linked in the article. Wikipedia is a sourced based project, and reliable sources dictate as evidence what is already written. To remove them under the basis of a hunch with no proof would go against what is the purpose of the project itself. If you find sources showing a non league player has won 25 conferences or FA Trophies then bring in the source and the wording can be changed, but until then we have multiple sources of a reliable nature confirming something that shouldn’t be challenged without new info to do it from. Also, why would semi pro and reserve matches compare to senior first team games? I know I spoke about major honours being a fake term but this is surely common sense. Non league cups are between reserve teams and semi pro sides, if you wanna compare that to pro honours, what’s to stop throwing in stuff like women’s matches and youth team games into the mix? The project would look ridiculous because nobody compares like that. Davefelmer (talk) 12:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * One of the sources on the Scholes lead specifically says "major titles – counting both domestic and international trophies", and the others are completely unclear on the specific trophies they're counting and just provide totals. Without any specifics, the sources are pretty low quality. The wiki article itself also lists the European Under-19 Championship as a trophy of his, which the lead and sources doesn't consider.
 * ' suggestion of showing Scholes' records in each specific competition seems the clearest solution to me. It's also the way honours lists are presented in the leads of most club articles. Madshurtie (talk) 17:43, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * You literally state it says its counting domestic and international trophies and then say its not providing specifics. That seems pretty neutral and specific to me. And other sources included are from the likes of The Telegraph and FourFourTwo.com, widely used reliable sources. His England U-19 Championship in the honours section is sourced seperately by a reliable source, meriting its inclusion. Davefelmer (talk) 22:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * You didn't read what I said. I said the only source that gave specifics said it was counting major trophies, which is what you were denying. The other sources didn't give specifics.
 * Because they don't give specifics, the sources don't give enough information for us to know exactly what they're saying, even though some of them are perfectly reliable.
 * The European U-19 isn't in the totals mentioned in the lead, so I'm not sure what your point is. My point is it contradicts the claim the totals include all trophies. Madshurtie (talk) 22:41, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Aggregation of different types of honours into one grand total is confusing, and assumptions are made in it. Just compare eggs with eggs by breaking things down by competition. By the way, most non-league competitions in England do not feature reserve teams - they are all clubs' senior team. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 08:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree. One other problem is a total presents every trophy with equal weighting, which can make comparisons between clubs or players very misleading. On this note, I've been working on List of football clubs in England by competitive honours won and I increasingly wonder if the totals should be stripped from the page entirely, leaving just the individual trophy entries. Madshurtie (talk) 21:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Mate, you are clearly being obtuse. The source title is "footballers who have won the most trophies in club football", making no mention of major or minor status. It then carelessly throws in the word 'major' within the article, but then immediately clarifies that it is referring to domestic and European trophies, which is pretty clear to me. Had the word major not been lumped in there you'd have no basis to make this case, and considering the title and the explanation of what its counting, the specifics are clear. Are you implying a source needs to get super specific and state concretely that it is counting "first-team, top-flight, competitive trophies" or something? Because that is never gonna happen and no source does that regardless of reliability. Its obviously referring to such, as other sources that say the same tend to do, because nobody would ever consider equating youth, reserve or semi pro tournaments in trophy counts. The wording is as clear as it gets in major mainstream reliable sources and is well backed up, so there is no reason to change it. The U-19 tournament, as a youth event, is obviously ineligible by such a count and is sourced through a different reliable source in the honours section, just like all those Arsenal pre-season and friendly tournaments on their page that you and other editors fought so hard to include are sourced through different sources from the major mainstream ones depicting their total trophy count. Davefelmer (talk) 15:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

You do realize you're arguing that the source includes all trophies while simultaneously arguing it only includes domestic/European trophies (or first-team, top-flight, competitive trophies, as you put it) and leaves out the U-19 trophy. Madshurtie (talk) 20:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Also, I didn't fight to include any honours on the Arsenal F.C. page. Madshurtie (talk) 20:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I thought you were part of that debate. My bad, never mind then! In terms of the Scholes article, you are taking literal definitions too far here. The part of the article compares his achievements as a professional football with other professional footballers. The source in saying it considers "domestic and international trophies" clearly lays out the broadest basis to consider the success of a player in terms of what he has won. The youth tournament is not professional competition, hence it is isnt included here. Its also why friendlies and such arent considered either, as these arent professional. Otherwise you are just being difficult about this; you cant use the word 'trophies' as a basis to compare anything where a prize is given out as thats obviously not the intention of the usage in the article nor the way it is used in reliable sources. Otherwise whats to stop you saying that in theory some guys from the local pub could get together every week and play football for some little pot, one team wins 26 times so each player has 26 pots and you use that to claim these guys are "english football players" that have won more than Scholes. It would be beyond absurd, and if someone wants to actually attempt to go down that road than A) you'd need sources of such documented occasions and claims rather than a hunch that "it could be possible" because thats not what a source-based content site like wikipedia is about and B) it doesnt matter in any case because the use of 'English footballer' as used in the sources implies professionalism which excludes unofficial games like friendlies, local kick abouts, youth games [as they arent fully professional] etc Davefelmer (talk) 00:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Is sportskeeda.com actually a reliable source? I find it surprising that (other than Pele) there are no players who play(ed) outside Europe on their list. I may well be wrong, but I'm sure there's a decent chance that someone playing for a very highly dominant club in AFC, CONCACAF, etc. could've racked up a fair number of trophies but, because there is little coverage of this in the English language (particularly "pre-internet"), it may be difficult to find. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 08:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Sportskeeda isn't remotely a reliable source. You send in a piece and if it's halfway literate and opinionated enough to stick a clickbait headline on, they'll print it. I remember an occasion where a young Wikipedia editor got a piece published on there, under their own name, and then tried to use it as a source on a BLP. Didn't get very far. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

In all fairness if you look across the football world, competitive football leagues didn’t even start in most countries until 30-40 years ago. Only in Europe and South America has it been played for a long, long time. North America is a good example of this as the MLS is still in its teenage years I believe and the Canadian league began like 5 years ago. Thus teams from most countries have not been around for long enough to win anywhere near as much in comparison to the best teams in Europe so it would make sense their players are less decorated. There are actually very very few clubs in football and even sport that achieve huge trophy hauls to the levels we are talking about to make it on these lists as players. There are a few highly decorated clubs in Central America though so maybe you could have someone from there, although there doesn’t seem to be a reason to generally doubt the neutrality of this list based on what it says is its criteria for inclusion.

If sportskeeda is an unreliable source for the total count, what about the one Madshurtie introduced above? https://www.football365.com/news/top-20-players-ranked-by-amount-of-club-trophies. Davefelmer (talk) 12:36, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * First footballer, third sentence "On grounds of fairness, we have had to exclude his Intertoto Cups with both Juventus and Fulham". What grounds? What fairness? Is it not a club trophy? etc. Yet Gerard Pique includes his Charity Shield. This is the reason we generally avoid utilising such analysis in favour of hard numbers and facts.
 * Looking at a few footballers on that list and their articles appear to need a tidy up. Koncorde (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Since the football365 list starts off by saying "only players who have played at least one season of club football in Europe are included" this clearly is not good enough. Note that there have been national leagues in a number of African countries since the 1940s, so more like 70 years (i.e. longer than Germany). Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 14:36, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I knew of a select few but I didnt think there were several, which African countries have league history that deep? In any case, I agree that looking at the source Madshurtie brought in from football365.com, it is not reliable and very arbitrary on what it includes. Add to that the unreliability of sportskeeda and I accept that there isnt ground anymore for the statement on the Scholes page, so I have changed it and just referenced the number of trophies he has won without any comparison to others. I hope this clears up the situation. Davefelmer (talk) 16:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Certainly there's been league football in Egypt, Ethiopia, and Tunisia since the 1940s (and earlier in the case of Tunisia), and Algerian clubs were competing in the French system, I think. Most other African leagues started in the 1950s and 60s, as they gained independence from their respective colonisers. African club football does have a deep history (the CONCACAF Champions League is only 7 years younger than the UEFA version, for instance) nut it's often hard to find much decent info. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Just had a look at most of the pages and it appears most actually began in the early or mid 70s, with lots of competitive leagues forming in the early 70s in particular. I knew Egypt, the Ivory Coast and Tunisia had long football heritages, I was a bit surprised about Ethiopia, but yes in terms of success you can definitely include the top team in Tunisia and Egypt (Al-Ahly in particular) as one that would likely have some of the most decorated players ever. They apparently are actually the most decorated team in the world, so I'm sure a long-staying player there would have a mountain of cups. Davefelmer (talk) 22:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

On a Scholes front, anyone want to look at his stat box which shows his first time with Utd ending in 2011, and a second period of 2012-13. Now given he played to the end of 2011-2012 season and only re-signed in 2013 this seems incorrect to me? Yes / no? Should in fact be the first period ending in 2012, and second period being a 2013 only? Koncorde (talk) 01:27, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 * He played to the end of the 2010–11 season, then returned in January of the 2011–12 season, and retired at the end of the 2012–13 season, so the the stat box is correct. Hashim-afc (talk) 19:42, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Honours (part umpteen)
After being reverted by User:Kante4 at Dani Ceballos, i was then informed by them that it had been decided (apparently after consideration in the Gareth Bale article) to reinstate honours where a given player is not even part of the matchday squad. We agreed that it would be best to bring the "situation" here.

Can someone please inform me where is the (new) logic in that? Attentively --Quite A Character (talk) 20:14, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If there is a source for it. Is there a source and what does it say?--EchetusXe 23:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

User:Kante4, can you please bring more light into the thread? I honestly do not know what to answer User:EchetusXe. --Quite A Character (talk) 12:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * This link shows the whole squad, even players who did not make the squad/bench like Ceballos and others. I still feel those who did not made the bench should not have that honour, but the same was with Bale a year earlier and agreed to have that included. Kante4 (talk) 14:10, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Which medal are you on about for Bale? The only one I can see missing from his honours list is the Tottenham league cup runner-up medal from the 2008-09 season. Govvy (talk) 14:38, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure that the eligible players list has much to do with it. The UEFA Super Cup regulations state that the winners receives 40 gold medals, with no stipulation as to who gets them. Which means it's up to the club. Mr Ceballos' profile at the Real Madrid website lists it among his honours, which is probably as close as you'll ever get to finding out whether he did get one, without writing to Florentino Pérez and/or Mr Ceballos' insurance company. Always assuming that we're equating medals to honours, obviously... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Soccerway, whilst not always perfect for honours (as it sometimes inexplicably grants them to non-playing youth players), confirms Bale won the 2017–18 SuperCup... GiantSnowman 14:44, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That was never in question as he played in that game... Kante4 (talk) 14:50, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Somehow it's not listed at Bale anymore, but there was a discussion sometime (i am pretty sure...). Kante4 (talk) 14:51, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Pinging for that as he was involved i think. Kante4 (talk) 14:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * But the 2017-18 Super Cup season medal is listed, it's the 2016 one that isn't there because he didn't take part in the final. I think he was injured. Govvy (talk) 15:01, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, like i said it is. The 2016 one was added because the uefa.com source said he was in the squad, like Ceballos. Kante4 (talk) 15:23, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I think this is the source you're looking for. It's weird that Bale would be included in the squad and then not be included in the matchday 18 (he didn't even travel to Norway due to injury), but he was included. The sticking point is with Ronaldo, who people claim should be given the honour despite the source explicitly saying he wasn't included in the squad (probably because he went all the way to the final of Euro 2016 with Portugal and was still a bit injured). – PeeJay 15:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Someone added the 2005 supercup to the Lionel Messi article also, despite him not playing in it at all. Shouldn't that be removed? SteamingStars (talk) 15:07, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If there's no reliable source confirming the honour, then yes. GiantSnowman 15:23, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject
The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template Transclude lead excerpt.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background
On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you. &mdash; The Transhumanist  07:38, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Well, i have no idea that how to properly update Portal:Association football. Turn to a mini subpage of the homepage/front page of wikipedia? Matthew_hk   t  c  09:56, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Portal templates affecting reflist templates
I don't know why, but there is some bug were the portal template will affect the reflist template and stop the reflist from splitting into columns. One example is Newcastle United F.C., can someone good with templates have a look thanks. Govvy (talk) 17:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * On my screen it splits into three columns. Number   5  7  17:17, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I tried it out on the other computer, I think it's bugged to smaller screen sizes, not sure why. Govvy (talk) 17:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thoughts?  Kees08  (Talk)   17:45, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I copied this thread to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portals, for wider response. Please continue this discussion there. Thank you. ;)  &mdash; The Transhumanist   20:02, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Are these enough for club change update?
This is only my second pre-season as an editor so I'm not certain what is accepted and what isn't. A few editors have been reverted for unsourced changes to these persons: Eduardo Berizzo, Cristian Ganea, Ander Capa. Are these club updates with photos sufficient as a source to change their clubs now, although the players were apparently due to move at the end of June? I'm happy to wait but it seems unfair to revert the changes if the information is actually considered to be accurate? Crowsus (talk) 17:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Transfers in England will only go through on 1 July (as confirmed, helpfully, by the BBC here). GiantSnowman 18:36, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not actually true. Players' contracts expire on 30 June, so a change of club for an out-of-contract player as described in that article can't go through until 1 July. But ordinary transfers can go through as soon as the buying club's season finishes. If you go through the history of this talk page, there'll be links to the various governing bodies' regulations to confirm.
 * As to the original post, the wording at Cristian Ganea is roughly what I'd do: leave him at his current club until 1 July when his new contract comes into force, but add a sentence to say that he wil join his new club on that date. It's accurate, and this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, so we shouldn't be saying he's joined a new club in May when we know he doesn't until July. Whereas the wording in the body of Ander Capa is correct, but the infobox/lead are not: he doesn't yet play for Athletic. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Official Football Association website player profiles
It seems that the official FA profiles of English international players no longer exist. On most articles of English youth or senior international players there is a link in the external links section to an FA profile, but none seem to be working. Considering this is the source for youth international stats this is a bit of a problem... --Stuart1234 (talk) 13:33, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Try the wayback machine. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:12, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Which is located here if you weren't aware. GiantSnowman 11:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

project page sources article
I was wondering if we could make a project page with a list of sources that shouldn't be used on football articles. Govvy (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Could it be a section in this page: WikiProject Football/Links? Number   5  7  14:19, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Could work, a section explaining those links that shouldn't be used citing WP:DAILYMAIL, sources related to Reach PLC (Trinity Mirror) others like transfermarkt.com etc. With a shortcut we can use like WP:FSOURCES? Govvy (talk) 14:29, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe the Trinity Mirror thing was over the top of me.. Govvy (talk) 14:35, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Vice captains etc.
User:SLBedit is removing all the vice captain information from the squads on club articles, there was no consensus or talk regarding removing this information. I like to know who the vice captains are on club articles, I feel this is useful information being removed and this feels very disruptive. I was going to restore all his edits, but I thought this would border on warring with him. Would appreciate some help, cheers. Govvy (talk) 11:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure, tbh. I think, if any, one VC could be added but have no problem when only the captain is mentioned. Kante4 (talk) 11:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * If it's sourced, then include it - but do not assume that players who take over for one game because the captain is injured etc. are 'official' vice captains...and also don't list loads of VCs, just one is needed. GiantSnowman 12:25, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I've also reverted - your edits go far beyond WP:BOLD, no consensus for these changes to long-established practices. GiantSnowman 12:27, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Cheers, GS, I like Vice captains information, not so interested in who is 3rd or 4th, it's a good indication of who the key players are in that squad. I don't mind removing when there are more than two captains, but if I put an analogy on it, it felt like removing Spock and giving Captain Kirk all the credit and not recording Spock contribution at all!! Govvy (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not about what you "like", it's about what's encyclopaedic. If the club has a sourceable hierarchy when it comes to their captains, that's fine, but we shouldn't just add stuff because we "like" it, especially if we're just attributing a position in the captaincy hierarchy based on one or two games where a certain player took over the armband. – PeeJay 23:10, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * What I like? I've been helping out this project since 2006 and I've never added captain information to articles, I've left that to other people and not once have we ever directly cited the captaincy next to the player name! What I like has nothing to do with the main argument. Govvy (talk) 11:11, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You’ve said twice in this thread that you like to know who the captains are. I took that to mean that was your main argument against removing that info. – PeeJay 11:31, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I also like burgers and shawarma, really... If someone says they like something about a wiki article.. at what point do you think it necessary to point wiki-policy back about liking something, it's not always the obvious you need to read but the other parts around those elements of what someone writes. Please don't look too hard at the context otherwise you will miss the obvious points. Govvy (talk) 12:22, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I remember your edit: "one captain is sufficient" SLBedit (talk) 21:00, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * GS, why did you readd unsourced content and reverted, at least, seven proper edits I made? SLBedit (talk) 22:42, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That edit you refer to had 4 captains, far too many. And apologies if anyone genuine edits got caught in the mass revert, happens sometimes. GiantSnowman 18:16, 3 June 2018 (UTC)