Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 61

Paul Wheatcroft / FC Fortune?
I've just created a page for Paul Wheatcroft and have come across a number of sources that say he played for FC Fortune (or possibly Fortuna) in Belgium. However, the only club I can find with that name is the South African club, now named Western Province United. Can anyone shed some light on this please? Cheers, --Jimbo[online] 16:19, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, does anyone know of his whereabouts after 2004? Thanks, --Jimbo[online] 16:20, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I would have guessed Dutch team Fortuna Sittard, but no appearances there according to VI. GiantSnowman 17:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * FC Fortune is the South African one. Man Utd had a relationship with them at the time. See e.g., . cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:59, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they were owned by Quinton, that's how Wheatcroft (and others) ended up there. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

FNB Stadium → Soccer City
FNB Stadium has been renamed Soccer City because that was the common name during the 2010 World Cup. There was no discussion and no one alerted us. I believe the page was moved incorrectly based on Common Name. Please comment on it at the article's talk page. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the stadium known as Soccer City for a few years before it became FNB Stadium? Even so, the name of the stadium and the precinct is still a matter of dispute. Hack (talk) 03:19, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The complex still is known as Soccer City, but the stadium is FNB Stadium. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Naming: Fußball-Bundesliga (women)
It seems inconsistent to have the German language "Fußball-Bundesliga" then "women" in English. If we must call football "fußball" here, then why not use "frauen" instead of women? I am not necessarily arguing against German (or other foreign) language titles, but this sort of jumbled mixture is far from ideal. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 10:33, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The word 'Fußball' is not used because it is the German for football. It is used because the name of the league is the 'Fußball-Bundesliga' (Federal Football League, I think) it is used as a proper noun. i.e. La Liga means The League in English but we don't refer to it as such. Adam4267 (talk) 10:55, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that's true, any more than the proper noun for the Premier League is the 'Football Premier League'. In any case Frauen-Bundesliga seems to be the actual name of the women's league. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 11:26, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not that consistent to Frauen DFB Pokal which then would be DFB-Pokal (women). -Koppapa (talk) 21:50, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And Damallsvenskan would be Allsvenskan (women)... and so on. I'm not against doing it this way if that's the consensus, but at the moment there is no consistency either way. I'd like to see us pick one way of doing it and stick with it. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 12:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd move it to Frauen-Bundesliga too.-Koppapa (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't realise the actual name of the league was Frauen-Bundesliga. Going along with current conventions it probably should be moved there then. Adam4267 (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Proposal: New category
In the wake of the ridiculous Herve Xavier Zengue decision. I'd like to propose that a new category is created for players who have been capped by an international team but have been ruled ineligible. What do others think? TheBigJagielka (talk) 17:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I feel that if he has been ruled ineligible, so he should not have the "X international footballers" category attached to his article. What exactly is on your mind, can you please elaborate? --Vasco Amaral (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The players have represented the national team though so the category should stand. I believe we need an additional category that would group players together, who have played full national football and have later been banned from doing so. TheBigJagielka (talk) 20:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * So there would be one article in it? There is no need for that. -Koppapa (talk) 19:56, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There would be several.. Brian McLean, Nii Plange, George Mourad off the top of my head.TheBigJagielka (talk) 20:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In reply to Jagielka, I do agree that a new category could be useful, but make sure the wording explicitly states the criteria to be included. The reason I say that is because you have those players that think they can play for another country, get called up, but later realize they're not eligible, without making any appearances. I know there is one such player that had that issue when trying to switch from Belgium to Turkey. Those types of players should not be included in my opinion. In reply to Vasco, if he has made appearances for the national team for which he is not eligible, he should have "X international footballers" category in his article. For example, in Zengue's case, he made 3 appearances for Burkina Faso (2 in official matches), so by definition he is a Burkinabé international, even though he might no longer be eligible to represent that country. I noticed that Zengue's article doesn't have Burkinabe international footballers category, so I'm going to add it. TonyStarks (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Brian McLean article is out of date (i.e. wrong) now. He was temporarily ineligible, but on 3 June 2009 FIFA Congress passed a motion removing the age limit for changing associations for players who had already played for a country's national team at youth level under article 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes. Per this, he could apply for a change of association to NI. -- Club Oranje T 08:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Open page move discussion

 * (Discuss)–Golden Team →  Kauffner (talk) 01:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Minor youth tourneys
I'd prod all of them, your opinion? -Koppapa (talk) 20:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Taichung World Youth Football Festival
 * Tri Nations (association football)
 * Alcúdia Tournament
 * Kanga Cup
 * Umbro Galway Cup
 * Helsinki Cup
 * Chilean Football Youth Leagues
 * Malta Youth Football Association


 * Thumbs up from me, let them fry! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 22:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, I don't see what makes them notable. The Alcudia one has a table with one edition and little else. TonyStarks (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If it can be expanded, I'd keep the Chilean Football Youth Leagues, as it appears to be about the official league structure organised by the chilean FA. The rest are clearly minor non-notable tournaments. Sir Sputnik (talk) 01:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Marcus Bent
Can someone confirm that he is now playing in Indonesia?--EchetusXe 12:32, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't read it but perhaps this helps. --  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 12:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * There are several news articles in Indonesian (including the one above) that came out this afternoon saying that he already came to Indonesia yesterday and will play with Mitra Kukar FC. See this news or its translated version. However, all the articles that I found failed to mention that a contract has been signed, and these websites sometimes reports unconfirmed and unreliable news. This news article and the one above even mention that he is the older brother of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. striker Darren Bent. — MT (talk) 12:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Cheers. I found those reports as well but as it is your opinion that they are unreliable I will revert any such mention of Indonesia until I find verification from the usual channels.--EchetusXe 13:16, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, I'll let you know if there are any further development. To clarify things, in the news articles above, one of the official from the club actually says that Bent is already in Indonesia and will start training tomorrow, but he claimed that he doesn't know anything about the contract. — MT (talk) 14:56, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Les Rosbifs are also reporting this as fact. GiantSnowman 18:33, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like it may come to pass.--EchetusXe 20:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

🇼🇸 [[samoa national football team|samoa]]
Why is the Samoa hyperlink not been corrected to Samoa national association football team rather than Samoa national football team. Can this be changed at all please? Mr Hall of England (talk) 15:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This diff gives the rationale: to differentiate from the Samoa national Australian rules football team. I don't really think that's necessary, but an RM seems like a sensible next step. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 15:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

How can you edit the 🇼🇸 samoa link which should be like this Samoa national association football team not the redirect. Australia has is like that but not redirected Mr Hall of England (talk) 22:08, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Compare: 1 and 2, it seems, it is the | link alias-football= I can't edit that page. -Koppapa (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

MOS:FLAG and lists
I was cleaning up an edit this weekend past where an anon stated that the Los Angeles Galaxy officially changed their name to LA Galaxy. After not finding a source to support the claim I reverted changes on the page and cleaned it up. It remained on my watch list and another edit today made me realize that they had some WP:REPEATLINK violations starting around this point: Los Angeles Galaxy. The problem is that the table has country templates that then violates repeatlink differently. I can't remove the multiple United States links without removing the flag. I would just as soon roll all three of those hounours sections (Most Valuable Player, Golden Boot and Defensive Player of the Year) into a single table labelled year-by-year honours (or honors for the American team) or possibly recognition. Each of the awards could be represented by a column. Suggestions? Concerns? Would it be good to do that to other articles as well? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:35, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Template: infobox football league
I have raised a post at suggesting minor changes to the template and wording to clarify the statement regarding the level that the league sits at on the respective country's pyramid. Please post there if you have any comments to make. Also, assuming there is no opposition, can someone indicate how changes can be made to the page, as it wasn't clear from first glance, and I don't normally get involved with changing templates. Eldumpo (talk) 09:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The template isn't protected, so you should be able to edit it yourself. Or do you mean that you don't know what coding is required? The request doesn't actually touch any template logic, so it should be a straightforward text replacement. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 12:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know what all the coding means. There's various curly brackets and 'If' statements, and when I try and change (using preview) it does not appear to work. Presumably the separate documentation page will need updating as well? Eldumpo (talk) 23:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * You're just looking to remove the "(s)" from "Level(s)", right? Or is there more to the change than that? The docs will need updated as well, yes. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 08:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, remove the "s", but then also revise wording under 'Parameters', to make it clearer exactly what should go in this field. Eldumpo (talk) 11:44, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * A neater suggestion was put forward at the very top of the relevant talkpage four and a half years ago! "Does anyone know (because I didn't when I created this template and still don't) if it's possible for the "Level(s) on the pyramid" field to display "Levels x to y" if the league has multiple divisions but just "Level x" if it has only one? Currently the Kent League page says "Level(s) 9" which looks really silly and potentially confusing..." — don't know if it's possible though. While we're looking at, is there any reason why the MLS Cup and various US-centric competitions and awards are built into the template? More to the point: does it matter?  Omg †  osh 22:59, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You could just write x to y or x through y in the parameter if you want several levels. And i guess the US stuff shouldn't be in there. -Koppapa (talk) 10:48, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think it would read strange to have Level (singular) even when a league covers multiple levels. I picked up on the strange inclusion of MLS as well. Hopefully we can get a consensus on this and the change can actually be made by someone who knows a bit about the code. Eldumpo (talk) 14:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Coaching accreditation
Is there an international standard for licencing of coaches? I note that there seems to be standardisation between UEFA and AFC but what is the situation with the other confederations? Hack (talk) 08:25, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Are you asking as a general question, or as part of work on an article? Even our coverage of the one coaching badge for which we have any coverage at all is severely lacking right now. FWIW I very much doubt that there is a global standard, nor that such a thing really matters when European football is so dominant in regards to top coaching. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 11:14, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm working on an article on the AFC Pro Diploma and it got me wondering about the other confederations. Hack (talk) 11:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I know CAF has its own system with three levels of licenses: A (highest), B and C. I had a quick look at the CAF website but apart from the coaching subsection and some press releases, there wasn't much on the actual system itself. Other than that, couldn't tell you if it was similar to UEFA or AFC's system. TonyStarks (talk) 23:41, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

2006 Yemeni League
Any editor more adept at tables jump over to this article and fix it, thanks Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Lame rsssf copy though. -Koppapa (talk) 08:56, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Club infoboxes - most apps + goals
Please join in the discussion at Template talk:Infobox football club. Merci, GiantSnowman 22:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Roda JC Kerkrade
How bout changing the club's name to the previous "Roda JC"? Makes no sense at all, it's like having "RCD Espanyol Barcelona" or "S.L. Benfica Lisbon" no? Unless i'm much mistaken, NO OTHER club in the world has RODA JC in its name, has it? So no need to differentiate methinks...

Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:46, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Vasco, the 'answer' to this is basically what do the reliable sources say. Have you had a look? FIFA use Roda JC Kerkrade, whilst Soccerway use SV Roda JC. Eldumpo (talk) 08:03, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Notable fans
There has been a bit of a discussion on the Talk:FC Bayern Munich page in regards to lists of notable fans being added. I'm not in favour of such lists as they will lead to an influx of IP addresses adding their favorite little star to club articles. However, some people are and a broader consensus might be needed. One was reached in 2006, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 2, and it was clearly against such lists but this is five years ago and opinions might have changed. My vote is no, the Manchester United F.C. or the Real Madrid C.F. articles don't have them and they would have lots of notable fans! Calistemon (talk) 01:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that because an IP comes to the article to edit that we should prevent it? I would encourage IPs to add reliable material to any article. If they come to add material that is unreferenced, it's a chance to inform them of Wikipedia policies and encourage them to continue to improve the article. The article itself has at least three very active editors and the fans are all referenced. I don't think that this should be a standard section in all club articles, only when it is completely referenced. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Personally, I don't think this section should exists in every club unless there are notable fans doing something notable to the team that makes them relevant to the team's article. It's not their notability that makes them relevant to the club, it's what they do to make them relevant to the team. We don't need a list of 50 Manchester-based singers/actors who claimed they like to watch Manchester City, we just need some notable fans, such as Liam Gallagher who recently involved in Manchester City's kit launch. Some other examples of notables fans who are relevant to their team: Jack Nicholson holds Los Angeles Lakers' season ticket for 30 years, Steve Nash buying a stake in Tottenham Hotspur, or anyone who wrote a song about his favorit club, or any notable fans who directly involved with the team (in promotion or management), etc. I'm not that familiar with the names mentioned in Talk:FC Bayern Munich, but if their fanaticism is relevant and referenced, they could be mentioned in FC Bayern Munich. Also, if this section should exists, it shouldn't be in list format, it is better in prose with an explanation why they're notable to the team. — MT (talk) 04:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Excellent point. So it's not notable that the pope is a fan, which is the case, however if he has officially blessed the team at the start of the season or has done something else notable, then it could be added. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The way I understand Martin this means: If there is something to write about, then do it, otherwise don't. Don't create a section that looks like "List of notable xy supporterts". Actually this should be common sense in my opinion, but in the current example (Bayern) there is just a list with absolutely no descriptive text, and that's the don't-part in my opinion. OdinFK (talk) 08:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sebastian Wurth, lol. What fanboy added him? Bet 99% of Germany's non teens don't know this guy. -Koppapa (talk) 09:05, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Javier Mascherano
Why does the lead and article say he plays for Man U and the infobox says Barcelona? PLease correct it.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Because the article was vandalised? It happens around here.  Simple revert to previous version was all it would have taken, not a note on a Wikiproject talkpage! The Rambling Man (talk) 10:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Since we're on the topic, how come Argentine players have their place of birth in their intro while almost all other players (and biographies in general) don't? I thought policy was to not have that in the intro .. although personally I prefer having it. TonyStarks (talk) 11:59, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:OPENPARA is very clear - the place of birth shouldn't go in the opening brackets, but in the main body of the text somewhere. GiantSnowman 13:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Whilst the current MOS proposes not to put place of birth in there, any conscientious football player article creator who created a page between 24 July 2005 and 28 March 2008 would perhaps have referred to WP:FOOTBALL MOS page WikiProject Football/Players, and possibly even used it as a cut'n'paste template. With the rate of change to MOS and other guidelines it is expected that a certain percentage of 3+million articles will not conform to current styles.-- Club Oranje T 23:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Nationality categories ANI
Please contribute at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. GiantSnowman 13:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

UEFA Euro 2012 seeding
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? See the talk page for a discussion. I've reverted edits that assign teams to pots a couple of times, but I'm not going to carry on, especially if my views don't align with the Project's. I won't explain the situation here because there's ample explanation on the talk page I've linked.  Omg †  osh 16:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Potsdam won the UEFA WCL round of 16 first leg 10:0 and the possibility of them not advancing is like 1 in 10000. But they aren't and should't be marked as advanced. -Koppapa (talk) 21:58, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree.  Omg †  osh 07:29, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Lists
I guess List of African national football team managers and List of European national football team managers unsourced lists could be deleted right? The first only seems to be linked from Templates and the second has no links at all. -Koppapa (talk) 12:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 12:39, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see the List of African coaches list kept. Would providing a source help in keeping it or is it just getting deleted because its a list? As you know, African football doesn't get much coverage so lists like that are good references for fans of the African game, such as myself. TonyStarks (talk) 15:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Is there a need to have a perpetually-out-of-date list of national team managers in a given confederation, though? What ties the coach of the Algerian national team to the coach of the Burkina Faso national team other than that the teams they coach happen to be located on the same rather large bit of land? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 16:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well the countries are part of the same football confederation and play against each other in international competition, so there is a definite link and like I said, it provides a reference for African football, something you'd struggle to find anywhere else on the internet (and just looking at it real quick, it seems pretty up to date) .. but, if you look at my message, I was just asking if the list was getting deleted due to it being unreferenced or because this type of list does not comply with guidelines. If it's the latter, I have no issue with it being deleted. If it's due to references, I don't mind adding them and keeping the article. TonyStarks (talk) 16:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * For me it's just an arbitrary grouping: I'm somewhat more averse to list articles than the median, though. If you want to work on it feel free to contest the PROD and add references. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 16:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Compare to List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_winning_managers, at the very least it would need a note when it was updated, refs, a lead, maybe a sortable date of appointment. Maybe pictures. -Koppapa (talk) 17:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Would it help if the list was titled List of current national football team managers in AFC or List of current national football team managers in UEFA, or perhaps merge them altogether into every national team in the world titled List of current national football team managers. References could be easily added from FIFA.com. I notice that there is no precedent about "current" list in this project, but I've been maintaining List of current National Basketball Association head coaches for awhile now and it's a good place to compare those current coaches. These kind of list can be expanded to include the date of appointment, achievements, and perhaps statistics if they're available. — MT (talk) 03:43, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Apparently there is List of English Football League managers and several other similar lists. These managers are grouped because they are in the same competition, which is English Football League, and . Those African managers are grouped because they are under one federation, Confederation of African Football (CAF), and also in the same competition, Africa Cup of Nations, African Nations Championship and FIFA World Cup qualification (CAF). Similarly with the European managers. With a proper reference and expansion and perhaps a move to a proper title, I think these list could be kept. — MT (talk) 04:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the prods on both. The discussion here clearly indicates they're not "uncontroversially a deletion candidate", which is what prods are for. Please feel free to improve or take to AfD. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:38, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Most african coaches now have an appointment date. 5 new in the last 2 weeks by the way. For the rest it is tough to digg up an article. If maybe everone could try to add info to one it would get completed fast. -Koppapa (talk) 11:17, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've just added three references (Ghana, Morocco, Senegal) for countries that had unsourced dates of appointment already. Don't know where the unsourced dates come from, but they're not necessarily accurate, as both the Ghana FA and the Morocco RFF gave different dates from those already there (I used a FIFA ref for Morocco, but a press release on their federation site confirms FIFA's date). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

A new user named has created four articles that may be problematic. Two are for clubs in the "Premier League" but also mention being part of the "Youth Premier League". I have marked those two for A7 deletion as being a youth team isn't a claim of notability and there are no other claims of notability or references in the articles. I'm not familiar enough with the subject to assess the other two and their detailed enough that they warrant a look from someone more qualified than me. That's where you come in. Can any of you please check the article created by this user and give them some guidance? They seem to be excited about editing and may be a great contributor given some guidance.  Ol Yeller21 Talktome  18:30, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Clearly copied from the corresponding Premier League article. He has changed the table around, but as there already exists a 2011–12 Premier Academy League and 2011–12 Premier Reserve League then I'm guessing it is nonsense.--EchetusXe 18:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Everything this user has created thus far is total rubbish, he is either using WP as a webhost for some sort of fantasy league or else he has just made it all up from the depths of his imagination -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * All gone now. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:02, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * LegandofThor2 was a sockpuppet account of User:SebastainTorres.--EchetusXe 00:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of 2011–12 Hannover 96 Season


The article 2011–12 Hannover 96 Season has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Duplicate of 2011–12 Hannover 96 season article.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

Also, as a redirect, it has no value. Kingjeff (talk) 00:17, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Standard for links in career statistics tables
I think a standard should be set for the links to corresponding years in career statistics tables (such as 2010-11 or 1988-89). See Robin Van Persie and Wayne Rooney for examples of three different places these years link to. The links on Van Persie's page go to the corresponding year in English Football, the links on Rooneys's page when he was at Everton go to corresponding year in the EPL and the links on Rooneys's page when he was at Man United go to the corresponding Manchester United season. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SAuhsoj (talk • contribs) 18:51, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I would suggest club season, personally. GiantSnowman 19:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If club season exists then it should link to there. Edinburgh   Wanderer  19:07, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, however I should point out that the majority of articles I have looked at seem to link to the year in English (or other nationality) football so that seems pretty standard already. The links to the club's season seem to be the odd ones out.SAuhsoj (talk) 19:11, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Club seasons should take precedent. The standard should be set at what is most useful for the reader as opposed to what happens to be more common at present. Club seasons are less common because the corresponding articles have only been created in the last few years, after a lot of statistics tables had already been constructed.--EchetusXe 00:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Does a standard need to be set? Why not leave it up to the editor? Eldumpo (talk) 09:38, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the MoS actually has it right at Manual of Style/Linking. As far as the player/club is concerned, the season article is the most relevant if it exists. If it doesn't exist, something (the country's season article) is better than nothing (a red link). —WFC— 11:05, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

IPs adding stub templates
I'm noticing that we seem to have several ips adding various stub templates to articles that are well past stubs. While this project has a large number of stub articles, it seems that no one may be looking at changes to articles that are simply the adding of a stub template. It might be nice if a few members of this project can look at the long stubs report each week and help with the cleanup there. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian (talk) 19:58, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

2011 Big East Tournament
The article 2011 Big East Conference Men's Soccer Tournament is in need of some work. First, we need a better template to display the tournament. Currently, it is using Template:12TeamBracket but that isn't perfect because the winners from the first round should have lines showing they are going to one each to all four of the second round games. If someone with more knowledge on templates could do that, please do. Also, under Qualification, we have regular standings for the Blue Division, but not the Red Division. If someone who knows how to do such things could make one for the Red Division using the standings at this page that would be awesome. Thanks. And if this is the wrong place to put this, I sorry. Smartyllama (talk) 21:23, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Template:16TeamBracket-Compact-NoSeeds-Byes should work fine. -Koppapa (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

IP vandalising football pages
Can anyone do something about this IP? He has a weird Japan/Soviet Union fetish and it needs to stop. --Lipik (talk) 00:04, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I put a final warning on his talk page. If an IP is vandalizing dozens of articles there is no need to bother with the early stages.--EchetusXe 10:11, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Question about Manual of Style
WP:FOOTY has a number of MOS's for the various types of pages. For example, for clubs, there's this. Are these just recommendations/guidelines or must they be followed? The reason I ask, is that on Club Africain, whoever did the article decided to use a table for the current squad section. Should the current squad section be replaced with a fs template or are editors allowed to do it this way if they choose? I was never quite sure about this. Thanks! TonyStarks (talk) 06:03, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The footy MOS is guidance not a must do. I don't see a real problem with the C Africain squad table. The text appears a little smaller than normal but I don't see that it needs to change for the sake of it. Eldumpo (talk) 10:17, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * While the MoS merely documents best practices rather than mandates how articles should be written, deviation from it should be supported by good arguments. Using the fb templates makes articles more consistent and the colour used is far less distracting than the bright red currently (over-)used in the Club Africain article. In the long run I'd imagine it'll be migrated to use the more common layout. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 10:29, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Two table headers that have the temerity not to be grey or sky blue strikes me as neither "overuse" of red, nor a "good argument" to be migrated to the most widely used template for its own sake. I think the date of birth and former team are interesting and add value, particularly in the absence of a season article. —WFC— 11:01, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The latter half of the article is extremely colour-heavy (two tables full of bright red with bright red flags, several large photos of players in bright red shirts, and followed by a bunch of icon-sized sponsor logos). IMO all of that detracts from the substantive content in the tables. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 11:14, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Aesthetics might justify a change to the table colour (and colour alone). But surely removing the flags from the president's table and the two pictures to the left of the squad table would have a far bigger effect on the visual appeal? —WFC— 11:38, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Enlarging the font back to readable size would help. Which I've now done. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:49, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And made a bit of a mess of it... The bigger font meant the display was mucked up on smaller screen resolutions, so I moved the images to the right, which makes it work even on smaller screens, but the images push down into the next section. If anyone with more skill or aesthetic sense than me could prettify it without returning the font to unreadably small, I'd be ever so grateful. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:45, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I translated the dates of birth into English.--EchetusXe 13:01, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * On my screen half of the far-right column in the table is missing..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. If it's my changes that made it go peculiar for you, please feel free to undo them. Put it back to tiny print till someone that knows what they're doing can have a go at it... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:26, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

The glossary's peer review
I was wondering if a few regular footy editors could chime in at the aforementioned peer review. I'm not looking so much for a full review, more for a general consensus on what direction the list should take. As Brian has rightly pointed out, there is inconsistency in the types of things that we have listed. The jist of the question is whether we should include informal terms that are specific to a country, club or individual (such as Mighty Magyars, Busby Babes or the Hand of God).

While I'm here, any help in reliably sourcing the following entries would be much appreciated (strike when you're done):


 * Reserve
 * Rounding the 'keeper
 * Season
 * Shoulder charge
 * Square ball
 * Street football
 * Studs up
 * Super Cup
 * Three points for a win
 * Through ball

I haven't checked the quality of the other sources against FLC standards, but once those have refs then everything on the page will at least be backed up by something. —WFC— 11:31, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Procedural help, please
Hi, I'm not well-versed in how to report things for admins to look at so I'd appreciate some help with the following. User:Agelshan has made a ton of edits to the infobox appearances and goals of MLS players over the last 2 days and they are all incorrect. It looks like he's been adding playoff games to the infobox but even then he's got a lot of them wrong. All of his edits need to be reverted en masse. Where do I go to get that process started? I'm not reverting them all one by one. Thanks in advance. DemonJuice (talk) 16:43, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:AIV and/or WP:ANI, but try talking to the editor first to see what he's up to. GiantSnowman 22:16, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Maximum wage
I'm researching Learie Constantine, a very well paid league cricketer in the 1930s. One of the sources states that he earned more than the maximum wage for footballers at the time (it quotes his annual wage at £600 up to 1934 and £750 afterwards). I wondered if there was any corroboration of this, or an indication of the maximum (and if possible average) wages between approx 1929 and 1939? Any help greatly appreciated. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:11, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I would say about £5-20 a week, I'm no expert on it but I think it was about that. Adam4267 (talk) 22:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, one of those things that short have an article really (Maximum wage (football)), or be mentioned on maximum wage.--EchetusXe 23:41, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A useful source: Cattivi (talk) 00:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well found!--EchetusXe 00:30, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Brilliant! Much obliged, thanks. --Sarastro1 (talk) 18:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

RfC on infobox sourcing
Those of you who don't have Infobox football biography on your watchlists may not be aware of a Request for Comment on infobox stats sourcing, at Template talk:Infobox football biography, which may be of interest. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:51, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Northern Premier League players
Category:Northern Premier League players has been created today. Just posting this message to say if you know of any players that fit this category then it would be great if you could add them. I know a lot of people, like me, 'look after' one club and its former players, some people work on non-league players and so on. Also there are only 312 pages in Category:The Football League managers, so that could probably be filled out a bit. Cheers!--EchetusXe 11:16, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Valeriu and Gheorghe Andronić
Salve a tutti, sono un utente di it.wikipedia. Inanzitutto mi scuso con voi: preferisco scrivere in italiano perché il mio inglese è pessimo. Volevo scrivervi riguardo i calciatori Valeriu e Gheorghe Andronić. Sono fratelli, nati in Moldova. Vorrei capire perché il cognome dei calciatori è "Andronić" e non "Andronic". Mi sembra che non ci sia nessuna traslitterazione da fare, inoltre nessun link esterno suggerisce di usare la "ć" nel cognome. Grazie e scusatemi nuovamente. --Aleksander Sestak (talk) 18:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Google translate:

Hello to all, are a user of it.wikipedia. Formerly i apologize to you: i prefer write in italian because my english is very bad. I wanted to write about footballers Valeriu and Gheorghe Andronić. They are brothers, born in Moldova. I would like to understand why the surname of footballers and "Andronić" and not "Andronic". It seems to me that there is no transliteration to do, moreover, there was no external link suggests to use the "ć" in surname. Thanks and please forgive me again    Edinburgh   Wanderer  19:15, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Human translator (it-M) says :-))) :
 * Hello everbody, I am an it.wikipedia user. First of all, I want to apologize: I prefer to write in Italian, since my English is very bad. I want to ask you about footballers Valeriu and Gheorghe Andronić. They are brothers, born in Moldova. I would like to understand why their surname is spelled "Andronić" and not "Andronic". It seems to me that there's no transliteration to do, nor there is an external link that shows that "ć" is to be used in the surname. Thank you, and I apologize again.
 * --Triple 8 (talk) 19:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As User:Mattias321 and User:The does made the changes, I have invited them to comment. --  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 20:07, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow google translator is pretty good. BTW has anyone else noticed that Gheorge's P.O.B. is Chişinău, Moldova. While Valeriu's is Chişinău, Moldavian SSR, Soviet Union. Adam4267 (talk) 21:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * One was born during the Soviet era, the other just after. TonyStarks (talk) 00:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The does (talk) 12:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't have thought that one instance in a US-Croatian site justified changing the spelling from that used pretty well everywhere else, including all the Moldovan sources in the articles, UEFA, the Moldovan Football Federation, etc. Suggest we move them back. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Which I've now done. Struway2 (talk) 13:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, I understand. Thank you very much. --Aleksander Sestak (talk) 14:30, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Current squad section of National Team articles
Two questions that I usually have every time FIFA international break rolls around, figured now is probably the best time to ask:


 * 1) Do we leave injured players in the current squad section or do we drop them to recent call-ups? Technically speaking, they were called up to the team, so one could argue that they are part of the current squad, even though they are not able to participate. On the other hand, being injured, they withdraw from the squad. One could argue both sides.
 * 2) What is the basis for squad numbers? Is it based on the most recent game or is it "historical" numbers? For example, player X might always wear the number 10 for his country .. but if he's not selected for the last game (for whatever reason) and player Y goes on to wear that number 10 jersey, should the number 10 be given to player X or Y in the current squad section? TonyStarks (talk) 14:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Doesn't matter too much. Either leave them in, or move them to the 'recent call-ups' and have the current match as their latest call=up
 * Only have the currently allocated squad numbers, that is, the numbers for the most recent squad. If there are no numbers currently allocated, leave it blank. --Pretty Green (talk) 14:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If there's no match squad announced, then there's no current squad, technically. Same goes with squad numbers. GiantSnowman 17:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

2011 Barclays First Division (Seychelles)
Hi, I'm FCNantes72, a french user on french wikipedia, and i work on the article, and i search for example the topscorer of the season, moreover RSSSF doesn't detail the season. I ask your help to develop the article. Let me your message in english on my french page fr:Discussion utilisateur:FCNantes72. Thank you!!Cordially!!--83.195.74.73 (talk) 14:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Ihor Belanov
Can someone please provide a TRANS_TITLE for the German-speaking ref i retrieved for his piece? I tried, but my German knowledge is nicht genüg...

Attentively, thank you very much in advance, happy weekend - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:38, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "How Igor Belanov soured his reputation" should just about cover it, I think. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:12, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Done, many thanks! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 17:36, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Walsall managers
I won't be online for a day or two, so I thought I'd drop this source here. Should be useful in turning a few of these red links into blue ones.--EchetusXe 17:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Sunday football league club
Is it possible to create an article for an Engligh Sunday football league club? The club was founded in 1978 and is an important part of the community in Maidenhead, Berkshire. Match reports and articles are also published weekly in the region's main local newspaper. Benvoss222 02:05, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As you have already discovered, it is possible to create such a page, but as you also have discovered it is likely to be deleted. Recreating pages multiple times will only get you in wiki-trouble, so coming here for advice first is the right thing to do. For a page to be acceptable it must pass certain criteria, most importantly verifiability but also notability. As the notability requirements are a little open to interpretation there are subject specific guidelines - for sportspeople that would be WP:NSPORTS - and also go-bys created by some wikiprojects. This project has WikiProject Football/Notability, which User:Alexf recently pointed you at. If your Sunday league club does not meet these requirements it is unlikely to be acceptable as a stand-alone article unless it can be shown to meet the wider general notability requirements. Note that local newspaper coverage is not likely to satisfy critics for coverage. A small mention at Pinkneys Green as has been done already is potentially valid but really requires a reliable source and even to be included within that article should have some semblance of note. In fact the entire Pinkneys Green article needs sourcing. -- Club Oranje T 07:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ...and having done some of that sourcing now, I don't believe Pinkneys Green FC is likely to pass notability standards any time soon - even their single sentence in Pinkneys Green is being liberal with paragraph 2 of Reliable sources and undue weight.-- Club Oranje T 10:03, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. What kind of sources exactly would be required? Benvoss222 13:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * National newspaper or BBC coverage (not a one-off article nor simply results). To be honest I don't think there's any chance that your team is notable enough for an article - even those that have won the FA Sunday Cup don't have them. The general rule of thumb for English football clubs is that they must have played at level 11 of the pyramid or in the FA Cup, FA Vase etc. The only two English football club articles that I am aware of that fail to meet this criteria is Wallsend Boys Club and Senrab F.C., who are both notable for having produced numerous professional players. You can see the referencing expected in the Senrab article.  Number   5  7  20:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Level 11? It gets lower every year. Big  Dom  08:15, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my mistake, it is level 10. Number   5  7  09:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

As a football fan living in Maidenhead and regular reader of two local newspapers, I'd never heard of this club until I read this. Presumably the Maidenhead Advertiser is the paper referred to, but it covers nearly every club within twelve miles in some form and a quick search suggests that Pinkneys Green is very low in its priorities. The club might be an important part of the community at a very local level, but that doesn't extend to the rest of the town and certainly isn't enough to justify an article in an international encyclopedia. The entry at the locality article is more than enough. Alzarian16 (talk) 01:40, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

River Stars FC
Hello, was River Stars FC existing anytime? (Or now?) --Diwas (talk) 22:20, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't find anything on google about it. somsoccer.com speaks of 25 registered clubs in the country, and river stars is not to be found in the 25 under the clubs section. -Koppapa (talk) 08:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Now prodded. --  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 07:08, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Parrillas One

 * Parrillas One: What about [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Parrillas_One&action=historysubmit&diff=441696049&oldid=435032851 this edit]? Is it an update or a downdate? --Diwas (talk) 00:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)Diwas (talk) 19:29, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Flórián Albert
Hello!

I'd like to ask an expert's attention to the Flórián Albert, Sr. article as some question came up, with that You are definitely more familiar and could fix them quickly and precisely. Thanks in advance, Thehoboclown (talk) 18:22, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello again! Just wanted to say thank you for the wise words given in the article's talkpage. This project is really lively, acitve and helpful, hats off! Thanks guys! Thehoboclown (talk) 09:59, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Andy Townsend
Watching ITV's coverage of the FA Cup, Townsend said that his father played for Charlton Athletic. Could his father be Don Townsend? Don was playing for Crystal Palace in 1963, not far from Maidstone or Bexley.--EchetusXe 12:32, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks that way. Found this after a bit of digging. J Mo 101 (talk) 13:00, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well found, thanks.--EchetusXe 18:26, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

First Anguilla Trust
Should First Anguilla Trust be deleted, or is it relevant? (It was prodded in the past.) --Diwas (talk) 20:02, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "known as amatory Anguilla football club in Anguilla football" - I've heard of sexy football but this is ridiculous...--EchetusXe 22:10, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Stadion Bogorodica, FC Bogorodica and FC Galejb AB
I stumbled upon these three pages the other day: Stadion Bogorodica, FC Bogorodica and FC Galejb AB. All marked as high-importance, and with no links to them, except from eachother. They might be clubs playing at lower division in Makedonia - but something tells me that it's all fake. Either way it cannot be notable, can it ? Mentoz86 (talk) 20:09, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Club plays in the fourth tier in Macedonia 1. -Koppapa (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Ronnie Allen
Similar to my Townsend thing, can anyone confirm that this guy was Ronnie's son?--EchetusXe 23:16, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He is. From Ronnie Allen's Independent obituary: "... whose son Russell started with Albion before serving Tranmere Rovers and Mansfield Town in the 1970s". I get "An unexpected error occurred" when trying to load that url, but the google cached version is available (search for "Ronnie Allen" obituary), and Allen's bio at Englandfootballonline carries the same piece. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, great find. Didn't realize that site would be so useful.--EchetusXe 09:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Steve Harrison (footballer)
Watched this show yesterday on TV (SPORTS YEARS: 1991 it was called), found this story about this guy, it does seem to have its relevance (http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?38092-Steve-Harrison-anyone-remember-his-*hilarious*-prank), does anybody think it's encyclopedical material?

Also, the fact he was England's assistant does not appear in his box as well. Attentively, happy week - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 16:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What are you doing reading seven year old forum posts? lol. Well in Peter Swan's autobiography he mentions a number of the "hilarious" pranks (to be fair one was genuinely funny, he and a teammate borrowed a hearse and made old ladies go pale as they drove around the area as Swan slowly emerged from the coffin every so often) that he pulled. The only mention I make of these pranks is "...he continued to land himself in hot water with a big practical joke he played on the FA officials who came to speak to Rudge at Vale Park.." So no, not really encyclopaedic unless a reliable source cites it as the reason for him losing his job, and even they it would be best to allude to the incident rather than explicitly describe it "...lost his job after an incident with a paper cup" *shivers in disgust*


 * Would set a bad precedent to start describing unfunny pranks. I imagine half the vandalism we see on player articles come from their teammates...the jokers...--EchetusXe 17:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Home Boy FC
Is or was Home Boy FC existing and notable? I guess it shout be prodded. --Diwas (talk) 22:50, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Real Bella Vista
I guess Real Bella Vista should be prodded. --Diwas (talk) 23:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Keren FC
Should Keren FC be prodded, I guess yes? --Diwas (talk) 22:25, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * After the 3.5 year old unrefferenced squad, there isn't much left. Couldn't find that club going through the recent RSSSF years. -Koppapa (talk) 09:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is this the same as Anseba Sports Club? Hack (talk) 05:36, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Template:Friendly tournaments 2012
I started the template "Friendly tournaments 2012", maybe a little early but everybody is welcome to paste in.--Feroang (talk) 03:00, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I hate to be negative but is it really necessary? TonyStarks (talk) 06:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What's the point having a navbox that only has one article in it? Big  Dom  17:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I see little point, and would advise someone with the time to take it to WP:TfD. GiantSnowman 17:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Currently the template has one linked article, but it's creator clearly invited contributors to expand as appropriate. The equivalent Friendly tournaments 2011 template has many linked articles, as do the previous years, which was easy to determine simply by clicking the <<2011 link in the template. Being less than 2 months from 2012 I see little chance of a successful TfD. Thank you Feroang for your contributions.-- Club Oranje T 07:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

C.D. Honduras
Yes I found a reference, but I guess C.D. Honduras should be prodded. --Diwas (talk) 23:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC) But now I found in rsssf: Honduras changed its name to Progreso in 1969. --Diwas (talk) 23:53, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The reference relates to a local team in the St Louis leagues whereas the article is supposed to be for a Honduran club? Eldumpo (talk) 15:52, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Immigrant soccer players from across the globe that's why the club names are international, I thought about an international tournament of several amateur clubs from all over the Americas. --Diwas (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * But, what should be the name of this article, what is the name now? Does the club existing now? --Diwas (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Mass page move request
A mass nomination to move articles about sportsmen based on diacritics in their name has been filed at Talk:Dominik_Halmosi -- Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 12:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Football at the All-Africa Games
I got a request from a friend to have a look at a recent edit war he's involved in at the Football at the All-Africa Games article. Basically, he worked on the article and set it up in the same style as similar articles for the Football at the Summer Olympics article, Football at Asian Games, etc. However, another user reverted the changes saying that the article does not use the format in the MOS. I don't know who is really right in this particular case and I was hoping I could get some input. Also, the reason the first user came to me was because his English is limited and he was having problems communicating with the other user. Any help would be greatly appreciated! TonyStarks (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Rcardiffcity27
User has recently begun adding national flags to player infoboxes, which goes against the Player article MOS. Just giving you guys a heads up. I've reverted a couple, but he's done a lot. —  JS   Rant Away 01:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have reverted José Moreira. --Vasco Amaral (talk) 01:23, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I reverted the rest that I found over the past 24 hours. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Newish editor: over-enthusiasm rather than vandalism, uncontroversial reverting. Surely a note to him to explain that it is not the thing to do, and asking him to stop (and possibly even asking him to undo his own) should precede denouncing him in front of everyone here. Kevin McE (talk) 07:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

"Director of football"
The Messiah has returned to Edgeley Park, this time proclaiming himself to be director of football. However the club website notes that "James will be responsible for all football matters including 1st team selection and transfers". Isn't that the job description of a manager? Should we consider him to be the club's manager? Or is there some way of editing the squad template to suit Gannon (for it is he)? Its a manager Jim, but not as we know it. Also note how the website refers to him as 'James Gannon'... it would not surprise me to find another Andy Andrew Cole situation developing. --EchetusXe 21:51, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The Non-League Show specifically addressed this point this week: I suppose you could use it as a reference? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

AfD - User:MYS77
Found these two, more out there 100% SURE: Álvaro Jesús García García and José Antonio Prieto Hernández, only played in Segunda División B so far, user does not care and continues creating tons of irrelevant non-notable articles - he and User:Alexanderalgrim - he has been warned extensively (both have).

Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 03:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Those two aren't recent creations: one was started in February and the other was last year. Standard procedure is, if the subject isn't notable, follow the instructions at Proposed deletion, add its name to the list at WP:WPF, and get on with something else. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Advise him of our notability standards - GNG and NFOOTBALL - and continue to monitor. GiantSnowman 21:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, several Valencia CF Mestalla players have been created, one of them is "notable-as-can-be" Salvador Ruiz, aged...16! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 21:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have done as SNOWY requested, warning the user. However, it may be worth noting that STRU has already warned him (in English) and i have already warned him (in his - mine - mothertongue, Portuguese), both to no avail... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 21:41, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * More an attempted explanation of notability re footballers playing in Spain than a warning, on my part. And in my opinion he's (I think he's a he) got the message and is now making valuable contributions.
 * After reading this thread yesterday, I had a look through MYS77's recent contributions. They've created numerous articles over the last month, ALL of which pass WP:NFOOTBALL, all of which are properly referenced (not just a list of external links) – see for instance Jorge D'Alessandro – and all of which are written in understandable and improving English. It'd be a shame if people started "warning" such a contributor just because in his early days on Wikipedia he didn't grasp the details of notability. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I wasn't suggesting a warning be given, I was suggesting helpful, constructive advice. But it's all good in the hood now, as he looks to be vastly & quickly improving. GiantSnowman 12:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

FIFA date?
sorry for maybe this stupid question, but how we call when many nationals team are playing at same time in diferent competitions in some exactly date of the year? official name of it? wiki article?--Feroang (talk) 05:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You mean competitions / tournaments overlapping in time? How about: parallel events? I'm not sure what exactly you are asking for. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 05:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * what is the name of a day like yesterday, when clubs free his players and it play for Ecuador national football team and Italy national football team and many games around the world, many of it qualificatory to 2014.--Feroang (talk) 06:14, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * FIFA International Dates? It's part of the International Match Calendar. Hack (talk) 06:43, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * that, we must paste it in Glossary of association football terms, and maybe make his on article with the list of dates in 2008-2014 periode--Feroang (talk) 07:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the term you are looking for is FIFA release period. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 08:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * COMMONNAME would probably suggest International break - maybe something along the lines of:
 * "International break : period of time set aside by FIFA for scheduled international matches per their International Match Calendar" -- Club Oranje T 08:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We oughta add an official term, if there is any. Madcynic (talk) 09:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The most common term I've seen used is FIFA International Day/Date(s)/Break. TonyStarks (talk) 10:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The FIFA Match Calendar which is sometimes referred to as the Coordinated International Match Calendar in their official documentation simply lists "fixed dates for national matches". Their events calendar notes "International match days". They frequently refer to "international break" in their articles, and less often "international dates". FIFA Release period" refers only to the amount of time prior to a match that a club is required to release a player (which varies depending on whether it is a friendly, qualifier, competition and even whether the opposition is in a different confederation) and only appears on 46 copies of their calendar. I don't quite see why we need an "official" term, half the other glossary entries are simply commonly used terms -- Club Oranje T 11:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * ClubOrange has got it all figured out, listen to this guy :)
 * Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 11:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Newcastle/Sports Direct Arena
Can someone revert the latest IP edit and semi-protect this article. IPs keep changing the stadium name to Sports Direct Arena. I've been fending them off so far and was about to protect the article, but having just been hit with a warning I'd rather someone else did it. Cheers, Number   5  7  12:42, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone? Number   5  7  19:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I would help you but there doesn't appear to have been any IP edits since your most recent edit. Also I'm not an admin so can't semi-protect the page but if you think it needs to be, and don't want to do it yourself, just request page protection. I can do it for you if you want because I use Twinkle so I can do it in one click. If there is an edit you like to be made please ask and I will do it for you. Adam4267 (talk) 19:41, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the article I meant is Newcastle United F.C., not the stadium article (should have been clearer...). Cheers, Number   5  7  19:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ahh, I see now. Argyle has already reverted him but I will put it on my watchlist. Adam4267 (talk) 19:58, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I've put it back to how it was. If it carries on then the page should be protected because we all have better things to do than waste energy on a pointy anon. Less said about Ashley's desecration of St James' the better as far as I'm concerned, wouldn't be pretty. Argyle 4 Life  talk  20:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, although you missed the link in the intro and at the top of the stadium section. This diff needs changing back. Cheers, Number   5  7  20:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Have done that I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have expanded the name change into the stadium section, hopefully covering all aspects of it. Maybe that will make the IP stop? I doubt it though. Adam4267 (talk) 21:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Sadly not. I've given in and semi-protected it for a week. Hopefully that will be the end of it. Number  5  7  13:46, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Season Articles
Just after an opinion on what should happen to articles like these for example 1968–69 Rangers F.C. season or 1911–12 Rangers F.C. season not picking on rangers just an example. I know the seasons themselves are notable as the club is but other than the infobox their is nothing in them. Surely their existence is futile unless complete and sourced. I know someone could come and improve but for instance the latter has barely been edited since it was created in september 2010. Edinburgh  Wanderer  20:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * They are stubs so, IMO, should just be treated the same way as a stub for a player or club would be treated. Adam4267 (talk) 20:36, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say they are even that there is no content just an infobox every single section has an empty tag. Edinburgh  Wanderer  20:43, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * PROD them. Boilerplate articles like this are useless at best. Wikipedia is not an almanac. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:07, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Tuples in association football
This page is a mess, full of unsourced basically trumpet blowing for people's own teams. The lead still hasn't been re-written from when it was quadruples and only two teams 'tuples are sourced. With Barca's being clear Original research and Celtic's being a dead link (which can be fixed). Adam4267 (talk) 21:46, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Also the title is completely ridiculous, given that there's no such word as "tuple". Who on earth dreamt that up....?? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know. It used to be called Quadruple, I believe but someone changed it because that name didn't allow them to blow there teams trumpet enough. There is a similar, Treble (association football), page which is only slightly less ridiculously badly sourced and is, IMO, much worse for trumpet blowing. I mean who the hell cares if your team won a 'near treble'? It's absolutely ridiculous! Adam4267 (talk) 21:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No such word as tuple?! You're definitely not a mathematician... Alzarian16 (talk) 23:02, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So the page should really be called 'ordered list of elements in football'. Adam4267 (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In theory, yes. Which pretty much shows that whoever chose the current title didn't really understand what the word actually means.
 * To be fair, we shouldn't really blame the creator in this case. The page seems to have come about as the result of merging three rubbish articles into a single easy-to-manage rubbish article. (Insert Ocean Finance joke here.) Alzarian16 (talk) 23:14, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well seeing as, AFAIK, only one club has actually won the quadruple (or above) it shouldn't have been that hard to manage. Although for some there were about seven or eight different teams listed, all using wonderfully diiferent and vague criteria. At the rate it was going, every team who had ever won four trophies would have been on that page. Adam4267 (talk) 23:20, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Would something like "multiple title seasons in football" work? Hack (talk) 00:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeh I was thinking of something like that, we have Double (association football), Treble (association football) and Tuples in association football. To join all three in their current form would create a pretty mammoth size page. So we would either have to cut a fair amount down and just have one page, or have individual pages and just rename the 'Tuples one. Adam4267 (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

There is absolutely no need for us to categorically list every time a team has won more than one trophy in a given season. I'd roll the entire lot into Double (association football) and maintain a small ancillary section for those few teams with notable achievements over and above that, presumably referenced solely to articles written in reliable newspapers discussing such things (inevitable rolled out in the British papers every team a team looks to be on course for one, so probably easy enough to find). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page: Talk:Tuples in association football.

UEFA 2011
Strage title. Is the contenst worthy to save? I don't think so. -Koppapa (talk) 13:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * WP:NOT a sports calendar. We should endeavour to concentrate on documenting that which has happened rather than that which may go ahead in the future. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Rivalry template
I've taken a shot at creating a generic infobox for college sports rivalries:. Comments appreciated at Template talk:Infobox college rivalry. Thanks, Mackensen (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Place of birth
Hello everyone, I'm hoping that there's some kind of Wikipedia consensus view about this question. An editor has been going around to articles of football players and changing "Barcelona Spain" to "Barcelona Catalonia" (e.g. here). I know there are complicated and nationalistic issues involved but I was hoping there was a consensus view on which is the preferred form. Any thoughts? (Cross post from WP:SPAIN.) SQGibbon (talk) 00:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Barcelona, Spain. Just revert the edits. Nationalists, splitter and other politically motivated editors vandalize topics all the time. Just revert it, and take a look into the contributions of the user, if there is more to revert. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 00:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * No Jonathan, it's "Barcelona, CATALONIA", or "Seville, ANDALUSIA", or "Bilbao, BASQUE COUNTRY", just to give extra geographic info. It's followed in the article's introduction by "is a SPANISH footballer", so no one is; 1 - being politically driven; 2 - vandalizing anything OK? If people choose to remove the geographic region, then they should also not write SPAIN, why should we have repeated stuff like "...born 31-3-1980 in Barcelona, Spain, is a Spanish footballer"? Greetings as well, from Portugal (i'm Portuguese, not a Spanish nationalist, and if i'm seeing it well, the editor who keeps doing the stuff mentioned above is not one either, he's BRAZILIAN!) - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 03:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm with Vasco on this, it's just extra information about the city's region in the country. However, I believe the usage depends on various factors here. If writing "Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain" is too long for the infobox, just write "Barcelona, Spain" there. In the prose, either in the lead or in the section about birthplace, it doesn't hurt to have "Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain". As Vasco says, it would be silly to have "...Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain, is a Spanish...", therefore I believe it's better to simplify it into "...Barcelona, Catalonia, is a Spanish...". Anyway, US-related articles often have the states written between city name and "United States" and even sometimes "United States" are omitted. — MT (talk) 04:12, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, so I looked around a bit and here's this from the guideline on opening paragraphs:

3. Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);
 * 1. In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.
 * 2. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.

Which indicates that we shouldn't even have something like "Gerard Piqué i Bernabeu (Catalan pronunciation: [ʒəˈɾar piˈke]; born 2 February 1987 in Barcelona, Catalonia) is a Spanish footballer,...", but just " Gerard Piqué i Bernabeu (Catalan pronunciation: [ʒəˈɾar piˈke]; born 2 February 1987) is a Spanish footballer,..."

This is backed up from the Football style guide which gives as an opening sentence: "Tim Template (born 1 January 1975) is a professional footballer who plays as a striker for Temp in Templatonia Premier League.

Template was born in TempTown and played youth football with Template Juniors and Template Youth before starting his professional career with Template United F.C. ..."

You can see an example at Wayne Rooney. I guess following the guidelines successfully sidesteps the issue. I will also note that while I would like to think that most readers know that Catalonia is an autonomous region in Spain the reality is probably that it isn't well-known at all and having the line "... born in Barcelona Catalonia is a Spanish football player ..." might actually be confusing in that unless you know what Catalonia is you would think that the player changed nationalities from Catalan to Spanish. I agree that "Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain is a Spanish football player" is a bit awkward but at least it's perfectly clear. In any case, editing these articles to conform to Wikipedia biography and football guidelines solves the problem. SQGibbon (talk) 06:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Vasco & Martin. In the infobox the vast majority uses the country and not the state. The state is used and the country omitted, if eg it is clear goeing in, that this a solely US-related topic, like US Congress elections or something like that. Otherwise you should always include the country rather than the state. Not everybody knows Bilbao is located in Spain, not even everybody knows Basque Country is in Spain, so you shouldn't leave the country out of the infobox, and not every footballer is playing for the country he is born in (Vasco you as a Portuguese probably know Pepe, a Portuguese footballer born in Brazil), so it is not okay to cut short the country of birth assuming it is included in the introduction anyways, because it is not necessary correctly decribed here, the introduction uses the country the player represents in internationals. So given the choice, you would have to choose Spain and not Catalonia. Of course it would be okay if someone wants to be more specific, and wants to add the region or state. "Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain" is totally fine, no problem here. In my personal taste it's a little redundant, but if the editor wants to do the extra work including the region, fine by me. But if you in the same move delete the country - and thats what the topic starter described - then this is not acceptable and the edits has to be reverted or at least corrected. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 06:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I never said that the country should be omitted entirely, just in some cases where it is redundant and the country was already clearly written or clearly known such as in US-related topics. I'm just saying that it would be difficult to create a consensus on whether to use "city, country" or "city, region/state/province, country" or "city, region/state/province" because not every case is similar. — MT (talk) 06:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello. Just want to make clear that this is not a national issue, because I am Brazilian and I have no relation Spanish. The intention, as Vasco said, just tell the place of birth. I'm only following an agreement that was.
 * I some cases, was placed "is a Catalan footballer", and I reverted to "Spanish". So to make understood, my opinion is to leave as it ever was. Example: born 2 February 1987in Barcelona, Catalonia) is a Spanish footballer,..." — Raulseixas (talk) 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * According to WP:MOSBIO a person's birthplace should not generally be included in the opening paragraph. Therefore I've removed it from Pique's article Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It should not be included in INTRO, but it should not be REMOVED SUMMARILY as i often see either. --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be removed from the lead without putting it somewhere in the body of the article instead, certainly. MOS:BIO says that "Birth and death places should be mentioned in the body if known, and in the lead if they are relevant to the person's notability." I've added Mr Piqué's birthplace to the Personal life section of his article. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hello again.
 * @Martin: i understand you wanted to differenciate by explaining how it is okay to add info about the region, but (look at the title) i answered with "Bercelona, Spain" because i felt i was given two options here, and given the two options i think deleting the regional info is more desirable than deleting country info. As you yourself stated "Bercelona, Catalania, Spain" is a bit long for the infobox, and it gets worse with other names that are much longer if you want to include the region.
 * @Vasco: So you basicly agree?
 * As for that "Catalian Footballer" part: The mentioned nationality is the nationality the player holds or the country he represents. I'm sorry but Catalan is not a nationality, and it is common standard to use the nationality in the short description. Both is okay to me, region + country, but only the region and not the country is not. If some regions / states really think it is important, that their region is represented seperatedly from their country, they will have to apply at FIFA or the continental institution for their own international team, like "Scotland" (UK), "Northern Ireland" (UK), "Wales" (UK), "England" (UK) or "Faroe" (Denmark) that are international teams which do technically not represent an official country. Until that such an exception is granted Catalanian footballers are "Spanish" footballers (whether they like it or not), because otherwise we could face a mass edit warring with every region or nation changing the despription of the player back and forth.
 * If that player has a involvement/special meaning/love to his region in particular (like say charity work or political involvement or anything else), or if he for some reason doesn't like the country he lives in or represents, his affiliation to his birth region or his rejection of the country can be further explained in the section "personal life". Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 16:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

NOTE:This widely used costume of putting the place of birth behind the birth date in the lead should be removed per WP:OPENPARA. The place of birth should be moved to the article body, something like: ...born in Barcelona, started playing football at... FkpCascais (talk) 16:57, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

As per WP:OPENPARA and the MOS for football articles I've moved the birth place information from the lead to the main body for the articles in dispute. I left Catalonia in but I don't have a feeling about that one way or the other. I did put Spain back in since it does belong but it no longer has the awkward wording that others have pointed out. Other than cleaning up my edits (and fixing any other articles that have this problem) I think we can say this issue is resolved. SQGibbon (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think so too, issue is resolved. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Where did i go astray explaining myself? I did not say CATALONIA is a nation, never, when i say "born in Barcelona, Catalonia" i am NOT SAYING the player hails from that "nation", the nationality is explained in "...is a SPANISH footballer who plays for...". Yes, CATALAN/BASQUE/GALICIAN footballers are Spanish 100%, when did i say the opposite?

Again, if you insist in removing the community/province, please leave ONLY the city, not "PIQUÉ was born in Barcelona, Spain", that makes zero sense. --Vasco Amaral (talk) 18:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Vasco. :) Why does "PIQUÉ was born in Barcelona, Spain" make zero sense? 99% of the articles are written this way. Obviously most people want to include the country, not only city or city and region. For Pepe eg this would look like this:
 * Pepe (born 26 February 1983 in Maceió, Brazil) is a Portuguese Footballer...
 * This would be a standard of phrasing that in a clear way includes all relevant information for almost all possible combinations. I really don't understand why this makes no sense to you, and i would ask you to further explain. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * (editconflict) Vasco, I think the point you are not getting here is that we cannot have, sometimes, vague or unknown regions of countries in the lead. You may know most of Spain's regions but many other people will not. Similarly, there will be many countries where you will not know any of the regions. If we have one standardised way of doing things it makes it a lot easier for everyone to know what they are reading and what it actually means. Adam4267 (talk) 19:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * VascoAmaral, I think we're all making an effort to understand what point you and Raulseixas are trying to make but would you please try to explain it again? What is it about including "Spain" in the main body of the article (with the place of birth removed from the lead) that makes "zero sense"?  The main body of an article is supposed to repeat everything in the infobox and the lead and then further expound on those points with sources. Help us out here. SQGibbon (talk) 19:22, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * 1 (Jonathan): Pepe was born in one country and represents another, so his case is different IMO; 2 (Adam) - yes, coherence is needed, but i see most English footballers have city and borough detailed in their bios (sometimes even in INTRO!) 3 (Gibbon) - i don't know man, even with the bit removed from the lead, knowing the nationality of the player makes me have that "no sense" reaction, why not just have "Born in Barcelona" instead of "Born in Barcelona, Spain", since you folks seem to shudder at the the geographic detail that much (as MARTIN TAMB put it earlier in the debate, it's just extra geographic info, nothing more, nothing else)? Furthermore, i feel the "reference to differ" should be applied when more than one city/town in the world bore the same name (i.e. Birmingham), AFAIK there is ONLY ONE place named Barcelona in the world.

Attentively, with the utmost respect - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 21:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Then let's go with "Barcelona" (a number of articles seem to do it like that) but you might want to mention that to Raulseixas who reverted my attempts to do just that. Thanks. SQGibbon (talk) 22:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Completely wrong there guys, Barcelona (disambiguation), in any case users shouldn't have to check whether there are other cities with the same name to decide whether they should put the country down as well. This is why the country is needed so people know in what city they were born and in what country that city is. If anything is to be removed it would be the city because that is not integral to a player's career whereas their country is (I'm not advocating that just saying).


 * Also, Vasco, I know that many English players have borough and city and many players from other countries have many different regional discrepancies (i.e. Spain with their autonomous regions) but that is no excuse for breaking the rules. If one player was born in Rockingham, Perth, Australia and another was born in Newton Mearns, Glasgow, Scotland and another was born in Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain and another was born in Chicago, Illinois, United States. The unsuspecting reader might not be aware that the first two go Suburb/City/Country and the second two go City/Region/Country, thus taking the wrong information away from the page and forever thinking Glasgow is one of Scotland' Regions or Barcelona is a suburb of Catalonia. Nobody wants that, do they? This is why we need a uniform rule that is actually followed by people. Actually we have a unifrom rule, but people just don't follow it. Adam4267 (talk) 22:49, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Vasco buddy, I don't want to personally attack you or slow down your commitment, so please don't get this the wrong way, but you seem a little confused. You ignore the key arguments people give you and don't answer the questions you are asked. I have a respectful request: if you oppose reaching a consensus, then at least do this in a productive way. Okay, answer me this: what do you mean "Pepes case is different"? I make a long explanation and you brush it all aside with that short and unprecise half-sentence? That's not argumention, that's just quarreling. I think Pepe is a good example for this discussion: He is born in a country+region+town and is a footballer that represents a club and a country, so he is in every relevant way not a different case. He fits perfectly here. Also he is good for showing how a good standardisation works because he has three different places relevant here: birthplace, country he represents, club he plays for. We are looking for a standard of phrasing that can be applied in all footballer articles, not just in articles where there is an overlap in some places relevant for the bio. If you say the case is different, does that mean you want to create a different standard for different footballers? This seems unneccessarily complicated, and certainly wouldn't clarify anything for readers and editors. And if this is what you want, where besides serving your odd taste of article design would be the advantage of that, since I honestly only see disadvantages? You have been given a lot of good explanations and suggestions how to handle this here in the discussion, but you oppose it all without coherent arguments or proposing a appropriate solution yourself. Really I don't want to criticise you personally, but the way you interact here is not productive, and your attitude seems highly questionable. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 00:33, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I thought i had presented my arguments to the best of my abilities, i see i did not, still being "almost" insulted (not your intention, but it looks like it), but i agree i am feeling confused, nobody's fault but mine there: i OPPOSE everything? How? I am only quarreling? I thought Pepe was different only because he is BRAZILIAN and plays for PORTUGAL, nothing else (thus, he could have "born in Maceió, Brazil" in his article - even though i prefer "born in Maceió, Alagoas, Brazil"), in no way do i desire a different standard for different players.

Questionable attitude? ONLY disadvantages to what i have said? I had THREE people asking me a question, i tried to reply them all as precisely as i could, you say i "brushed it all aside"? If i was not confused before, i certainly feel now...--Vasco Amaral (talk) 00:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In short, Catalonian nationalism has no place on Wikipedia and certainly not football articles on English Wikipedia.
 * At length, the United States of America are a collection of independent states. They are an exception to the rule of City, Country. The nations within the United Kingdom are recognised individually by FIFA and several other bodies. They are a different exception. I have no problems with listing Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, or Edmonton (and other Canadian cities) as City, Nation however they are usually listed City, Province because of the American influence on their leagues. German clubs are not listed as City, State, Nation. Pretty sure French, Italian, and other European nations are listed similarly. I suspect that Chinese, Japanese, and other Asian countries with subdivisions are also listed as City, Country. So no, the state should not be mentioned unless you can gain consensus from WP:PLACE, I can't see us making an exception either. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi again Vasco. Okay, I really don't want to insult you, and I also really don't want to almost insult you. If I came across there wrong, I apologize. The problem here is, not only i disagree with your view, but also with your way of discussion. Let's keep it simple, we're looking for a standard of phrasing. I stronly suggest to include the country. You want to include the region. My suggestion is this:
 * Pepe (born 26 February 1983 in Maceió, Brazil) is a Portuguese footballer...
 * Gerard Piqué i Bernabeu (born 2 February 1987 in Barcelona, Spain) is a Spanish footballer...
 * And so forth. You prefer this (as far as I understand, you are a little vague, correct me if this is not what you meant):
 * Pepe (born 26 February 1983 in Maceió, Alagoas) is a Portuguese footballer...
 * Gerard Piqué i Bernabeu (born 2 February 1987 in Barcelona, Catalonia) is a Spanish footballer...
 * You immediatedly see, why i wanted the standard with the country included, and why i brought up Pepe as an example. While there is no problem with Pique, because you immediatedly see the country a few letters further, there is a lack of clarification in Pepes case, this looks like Pepe is born in Portugal to the casual reader, which makes your proposal undesireable. So given the choice between country and region, I'd prefer the country included. There could be a case for also including regions (so town+region+country), but then again where does it stop? If there is any relevance for that region to be mentioned in the players article, then put it in another section, like the already suggested 'personal life'. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 01:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * No worries mate, no offense taken, i was just taken aback with the "questionable attitude" comment. Yup, i indeed prefer the second (city, region). In Pepe's case, why do you think the confusion is possible? Pepe's piece reads is a Brazilian-born Portuguese footballer. Asking your last question, no, the region of birth almost always (99,999999%) does not have any relevance whatsoever, only further information.

If you say in Piqué the nationality's only a few letters further ("...is a Spanish footballer..."), so in Pepe ("...is a Brazilian-born PORTUGUESE footballer..."). Same goes for, for instance, Liédson. Greetings as well - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 01:21, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * But your way to phrase it "Brazilian-born Portuguese footballer" has two disadvantages: first it makes the article longer with a more complicated phrase while adding no more info, and second this is not a standard that can apply to all footballer articles, we would have two different standards, which seems less favourable than one needed standard like in the case described above. You can only get your idea into one different standard by using the phrase "Pique is a Spainish-born Spanish footballer" or something like that in other articles, which obviously will not be used since it looks ridiculous. So to this two disadvantages I see no advantage (and you refuse to name one), other that satisfying rare preferences to include regions. And honestly, this just doesn't seem enough. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 01:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Regarding PEPE, LIEDSON, Fernando Amorebieta, Julio Álvarez and others, that intricate intro can be solved like this (it has been discussed at length at WP:FOOTY): since those players now represent a different national team than "expected", only that nationality stands in article (so Pepe would have "...is a Portuguese footballer..."), but he gets both the PORTUGUESE FOOTBALLERS and the BRAZILIAN FOOTBALLERS categories.

What you can be sure is that, no matter what the consensus reached is, i will abide by it. Don't know about User:Raulseixas, but i will. --Vasco Amaral (talk) 01:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I beleave X-born Yonian player has been used only for cases where a player is born in a different country than the one that represents. That doesn´t seem to be much of a problem in my view as it is standard only for those cases. FkpCascais (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Summary: So where are we folks? Here's a summary of views and such as I see them:

1) The lead sentence should only be in the form of "Person (born 1 January 1990) is a Spanish footballer" as per WP:OPENPARA and WP:FOOTY's own guidelines. I think we're all in agreement on that.

2) The main body should contain the additional information: "Person was born 1 January 1990 in Barcelona ...". So far so good ...

3) The question is, should it read A) "Barcelona" B) "Barcelona, Spain", C) "Barcelona, Catalonia", or D) "Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain"? I understand that "Barcelona" should heavily imply Spain so "Spain" might not be needed but then what happens with more obscure cities? Should we take that on a case-by-case basis or just stick with one form regardless? And why would Catalonia be added at all (not saying that it shouldn't, just trying to understand the various arguments)?  And if Spain is not included then why would Catalonia be?

Personally I think (B) "Barcelona, Spain" makes it the most clear for any reader who happens to not know where Barcelona (or any other city) is. That the lead already states "Spanish footballer" might make it seemingly redundant but again, if the reader does not know where Barcelona is then it might not be so redundant. But I could be convinced that just (A) "Barcelona" is fine as well (and fully list other towns as needed). Obviously if someone is born in one country but plays for a different national side then all the information would be needed. Does this cover everything? SQGibbon (talk) 02:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * To your question 3), I prefer (B) too. I already stated in the second post he minutes after you opened the topic, and explained it extensively later on. (A) is fine as long as the country in some mention immediadly follows somehow. If the country of birth is not the country the player represents, then i would prefer adding the country after the birthtown to avoid the then redundant term "X-ish born" further on. (D) is for my taste tmi, it's just redundant in most cases, and if it is not redundant and somehow relevant it can be added in a later section. And the "various arguments" you say there are for (D), well in this thread i don't see even one argument for (D), even if asked directly the only user who seems to promote that solution ignores the request to explain an argument pro (D), it looks to me as if it just the personal taste of one editor. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 03:57, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Again remember that this is not a matter Catalan nationalist. I think it makes the reader the full information of the place of his birth. This is because many players in Spain are known for their place of birth. Therefore, I propose a compromise: we use the model (D) - Barcelona, ​​Catalonia, Spain / Almeria, Andalusia, Spain / Fuentealbilla, Castile-La Mancha, Spain. Can it be? So everyone involved in this discussion would be included. -- Raulseixas (talk) 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * And what would be the reason to include the region? I still haven't read a single argument for that case. That is just redundandly pumping up articles without adding substancial info. No thanks. If someone wants to know which region the birthtown is, he can click on the provided link to find out more. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 12:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For major cities, there isn't any need to include a region. Mind you, for major cities, there's not much point in including the country either, particularly if it was mentioned two lines earlier in context of the subject's nationality. For lesser-known places, including the appropriate region, province, state, or county, might be sufficiently helpful to the reader to avoid their having to navigate away from the page they're on. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact, if context has already established the subject's nationality, which will usually be the case, (Fred Smith (born 1 May 1966) is an English footballer...) and if the subject was born in the country of which they are a national, it would be pretty standard practice to omit the country of birth from the prose whether the birth town is major or not. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Jonathan, why the aggression. I'm just proposing a deal. so you NEVER saw an article published in Spanish player. It is always the same story: people who do not even want to edit an article always be right.
 * And more ... Spanish players always pick on ... what's the problem? In English or French players have to the district where they were born ... why not discuss it too?
 * Wayne Rooney Rooney was born in Croxteth, Liverpool to Thomas Wayne and Jeanette Marie Rooney (née Morrey). Just saw? Why can Croxteth, Liverpool, but can not Terrassa, Catalonia? If you take the Catalonia, take Liverpool too. Daniel Alves ... born in Joazeiro, Bahia. See, this is not a question of nationalism, is only an additional information ... almost all Spanish players have ...

-- Raulseixas (talk) 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Raulseixas, Liverpool, as used in the Rooney article, is not a region like Catalonia is. Liverpool is the city and Croxteth is a suburb of that city. Many readers are going to have no idea what or where Croxteth is so the addition of the major city it is connected to is helpful.  The situations are not the same.  With Alves, Joazeiro is a city within the state of Bahia similar to cities and states in the US.  If the city is well-known (say Los Angeles) then we don't need to list the state (California, in this example).  But for an obscure US city like "Garland" then listing its state (Texas) and maybe even the city it is a suburb of (Dallas) might be warranted.  The question becomes if the Spanish city is obscure is adding Catalonia or Spain more useful?  Personally I don't think that for the average reader Catalonia is all that helpful but I might be wrong about that.  Also, if there are articles for English and French players that contain way more information than is reasonably needed then those should be altered too. SQGibbon (talk) 23:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * So, per STRUWAY's approach, in PIQUÉ's case, since he was born in SPAIN and represents SPAIN, its CLUB CAREER lead (or PERSONAL, or EARLY YEARS, whatever section is in article's beginning) should read "Born in Barcelona, Catalonia" or "Born in Barcelona", no "Spain" needed. - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 20:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the just "Barcelona" option then looks good and then if the city is obscure then "Spain" should be added. SQGibbon (talk) 23:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Sigh.


 * 1) "Gerard Piqué i Bernabeu (Catalan pronunciation: [ʒəˈɾar piˈke]; born 2 February 1987 in Barcelona, Catalonia) is a Spanish footballer,..." is fine. The MoS discourages the inclusion of place of birth, but it's not wrong as such.
 * 2) "Gerard Piqué i Bernabeu (Catalan pronunciation: [ʒəˈɾar piˈke]; born 2 February 1987 in Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain) is a professional footballer,..." is in some ways slightly better. Again, it would be best of all to leave place of birth out of the first sentence entirely, though.
 * 3) "Pepe (born 26 February 1983 in Maceió, Alagoas) is a Portuguese footballer,..." is egreciously wrong and makes me want to claw my eyes out. Pepe did not move to Portugal until he was 18. Highlighting his Portuguese nationality simply confuses matters for the sake of someone's national pride. Leave the nationality out of the first sentence and explain it more fully later in the lead.

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree slightly - personally I'd leave the POB out of the first sentence, but include nationality - after all, a more defining charactersitic. So I'd have 'John Smith (born 1 January 1900) is an English footballer. Born in...' etc. GiantSnowman 13:39, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In the modern game, nationality itself is not actually that defining. It only matters to a very small proportion of footballers, and even then there are a tremendous number of cases where it's not clear-cut enough to just say "English" or whatever. By avoiding it in all cases (even the clear-cut ones) we help to teach editors not to try to make less clear-cut cases conform with torturous phrasing like "Scottish-born Irish" or the like. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:04, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It may not matter to footballers but it certainly matters to the media - look at all the reports saying 'Man Utd will sign Brazilian midfielder', 'Arsnenal have secured Czech wonderkid' etc. - not 'Scunthorpe-born keeper moving to Chelsea' (unless it's very local news, but then they have nothing better to report on). GiantSnowman 17:11, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Despite understanding Chris´s reasoning I agree with GS. It is inevitable to use the nationality in the lead and removing it for some cases would hardly be a way to teach editors as it will look more like an accidental omission of info rather than a purposly left out info, as it is not explicit anywhere.
 * Chris, sorry to say, but it is really hard for me to buy how nationality is so irrelevant. I know in England the foreign players are so common you hardly follow track of all of them (even so, not so sure about that...) but, for instance, I grew up from young age being very close to Spanish and Portuguese football (top level football, definitely) and as much as in these cases the clubs are "international" for long time now, it is a fact that it is undeniable, even for Real Madrid case for exemple, to ask the first thing when a new player comes the question Where he comes from? as meaning both, nationality with existing or potential NT appereances, and his previous clubs and career. I really cannot see how to ignore this and name it irrelevant, specially for players with NT appereances.
 * I already said this in the past in similar discussions. My experience in a highly problematic area of Central and South-Eastern Europe, where these "nationality cases" are more frequent, is that being precise and including the correct mentioning of nationality is way more productive then leaving a hole which was allways used as prefered area for "smart IP´s" to "complete in their POV" the missing nationality info, obviously mostly wrong or incomplete. So basically what I am saying is that even the unestethic "X-born Yonian footballer" ends up being the only stable solution for these cases. FkpCascais (talk) 19:18, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not talking about removing it from the lead; I am talking about expanding it from a label in the first sentence to a fuller explanation later in the lead. The effort required to move the nationality data into another sentence of the lead is minimal. I am absolutely not going to be convinced that we have to lower our own standards for reliability thanks to well-meaning editors with such severe attention deficit disorder that they cannot get past the first sentence of an article without demanding to know a player's nationality. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I know Chris, that is why I started saying that I understand you, as for me the issue of the nationality being on the lead or lower is not important, but we could make a test if you want: we do it your way in several cases of those and we see what happends. I bet that for the more known cases it want take long for people to start re-adding the nationality in the lead, but if I come to be wrong, it will definitelly mean that I am a bit too pesimistic about wp users, and I wan´t mind at all to leave things that way. Also notece that I have been advocating to move the place of birth from lead to article body where it can be adequatly mentioned and expanded if necessary, something that is quite similar to what you propose. It is just that I don´t have much faith that users will leave blanked the nationality in lead despite all efforts we do in expanding it further, but we can allways make a test and see how it goes. FkpCascais (talk) 23:30, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Júlio Regufe Alves
Article keeps being vandalized - no good faith there, NEVER played for Porto as a senior for example - i'm about to lose it, specially because the "user" seems to have several IPs.

Suggestions please - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 22:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:AIV, WP:RPP. Don't start warring. GiantSnowman 10:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

playerhistory.com
New site launching in December apparently - I await with baited breath. GiantSnowman 13:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Hossam Hassan
Have not fed the troll in any way, just used ROLLBACK. Served me just the same, one "user" keeps adding a chart of STATISTICS of Didier Drogba - what the hey?! - to Hassan's page...People bored until the weekend comes in full blast i see... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

winners template
Didn't we discuss that tournaments shouldn't use template:winners? I've just seen it at 2011 CONCACAF U-17 Championship and 2011 FIFA U-17 World Cup. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And a few WP:MOSFLAG violations. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:11, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't recall if there was discussion on this, but what was your understanding as to why we said it shouldn't be used. Perhaps this should be discussed on a general template or sports page? I note that football is the first example used at the template. Eldumpo (talk) 09:04, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, why shouldn't we use it? Personally, I've used it pretty often for contintental or regional club competitions. Didn't know we weren't supposed to. TonyStarks (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Dutch translation required
Could someone translate the phrase "d'n trainer met ne poot genoemd" in the last paragraph of the article on Horace Colclough, who was a coach at Heracles Almelo in the 1920s despite having a knee injury. Thanks. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 11:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Something to do with his leg and the fact that was a trainer. It might be slang or a local dialect but it seems to me to be roughly translated as "the trainer with ??? leg", like 'gammy leg' or something not in dictionaries.--EchetusXe 14:46, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The phrase is rather comtemptuous (and in dialect). Poot usually refers to a limb of an animal. literally: The trainer with that leg. (referring to his limp) Cattivi (talk) 14:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Babak Rafati
He tried to kill himself yesterday and an IP added that this was "due to the fact that a week ago he saw Jesus which told him if he commited suicide, he would go straight to the heaven". So lets keep an eye out for vandalism on this article, cheers.--EchetusXe 00:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Addick Koot or Adick Koot
Hello. I found you page "Addick Koot". I don't think that spelling is correct (the only external link is National-football-teams.net, who writes "Adick Koot"). The page was moved in 2009. I apologize because my english is very bad (I'm italian). Thank you. --Aleksander Sestak (talk) 11:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * NL.WIKI seems to name him "Adick", and these articles i have found (also Dutch) do the same (please see here http://www.wereldvanoranje.nl/profielen/profiel.php?id=1052 and here http://www.psv.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwspagina/PSV-eert-gouden-selectie-van-1988.htm). So, it seems the page was not well moved. Ciao! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 13:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I've moved him back. Thanks, Struway2 (talk) 13:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've been told he's Adick. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, thank you. Bye! --Aleksander Sestak (talk) 19:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Free transfers and their clubs in transfer lists.
I have noticed that in transfer lists many people have a tendency to put down a player's previous (or subsequent) club despite them having a significant period of time being "unattached" between the two moves. Celtic's current season is a great example. Andre Blackman has just signed and his "From" club is listed as AFC Wimbledon. It is correct that they were his last club. However, he was released by them nearly a year ago. The current layout suggests that Celtic have signed him from Wimbledon, which is just completely incorrect. They signed him from nobody so it should really be unattached. Whereas Adam Matthews and Kelvin Wilson were signed immediately after thir contracts expiring so did actually sign from their previous clubs. Freddie Ljungberg and Andreas Hinkel left and didn't immediately sign for their new clubs but they are listed in the table as having done that. I think this is wrong because if someone wants to know who they went to they can open up their page but Celtic's page should show them as just being released because that's what actually happened. Adam4267 (talk) 21:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * its the standard we have been following on all the scottish season articles this year. And also appears to be the case on the list of transfers by season from previous years. Edinburgh   Wanderer  21:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say if the release and the signing for a new club is within the same transfer window it should be considered a direct move, otherwise the player should be listed as signing from 'unattached'. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:56, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with ArtV.--EchetusXe 09:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What I've started doing with Birmingham season articles is put brackets round the previous club if the player joined Birmingham after his contract with that club expired (whether he joined the day after it expired or months later). And for players who leave when their Birmingham contracts expire at the end of a season, I list them as released on 30 June, and if someone adds their next club, it gets brackets round (again, whether they join their new club the next day or months later). With an explanatory note below the table. See e.g. 2010–11 Birmingham City F.C. season. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * A bit of a sticky one this. Even if a player's contract expires, I'm led to believe that his former club retains his registration; the Bosman ruling prevents clubs from withholding that registration in the event that a player wants to sign elsewhere in the EU, but it doesn't negate the registration itself. Case in point, if Sone Aluko signs for Rangers after his current trial then Rangers will have to get his registration from Aberdeen (and I think Aberdeen are entitled to compensation due to development of an under-21 as well) even though he's not actually been contracted to Aberdeen since the summer. However, I think it's pretty rare for a professional player to actually be out of work during a playing season, so it's probably okay simply to rule on these on a case-by-case basis and make sure the article contains an explanatory footnote (with references of course). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Nationality categories
Right we need consensus on this matter - if a player born & raised in England, capped by England at youth level, makes a senior appearance for Wales, does he "lose" his Category:English footballers? I say of course not, but would like consensus established. GiantSnowman 21:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Last time around i thought we HAD CONSENSUS, pretty much everyone said that the category stays (Fernando Amorebieta, Liédson, Marcos Senna, Julio Álvarez, etc, etc). Oh, and the guy who removes categories without even one word in summary, User:Kolins, said "talk to the hand" when asked to participate in the discussion (discussions?) and/or being notified... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * (editconflict) No, he is still an English person and footballer. He is just now 'Welsh' in terms of footballing nationality. So Category:English footballers should remain and Category:Wales international footballers should be added after the switch. I don't think Category:Welsh footballers should be added Adam4267 (talk) 21:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * ?? A different turn now, and not a positive one in my opinion. If the given subject, born and raised in England and capped for the country at youth level, appears as a senior for Wales, he should have BOTH categories (ENGLISH footballers, WELSH footballers - if he appears for the latter's national team, he is a Welsh footballer, albeit a "borrowed" one), the intro should read "...is a WELSH footballer...". Thought this was clear last time round. --Vasco Amaral (talk) 21:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It doesn't make sense that a player should be in Welsh international footballers, but not Welsh footballers. There's nothing controversial about footballers having multiple nationalities, and the categories can easily reflect this. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:58, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I would have thought that Category:Wales international footballers covers the change (I agree with your point about the intro) so I would think it a bit redundant to have both categories as he is a 'Wales international footballer' but not a 'Welsh footballer', technically. Maybe I am wrong and getting too caught up in semantics, I don't know. Adam4267 (talk) 22:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * We should keep the category English footballers and add the category Welsh footballers. We should keep the category England youth international footballers and add the category Wales international footballers. However, the lead should read "is a Wales international footballer" not "a Welsh footballer". What was clear last time round and every time this is discussed is that we shouldn't be confusing the reader by expecting them to guess what any individual editor means by "a Welsh footballer". And I agree with Adam below: we do need a consensuses page... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 22:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

We should be concentrating on what the sources are saying, rather than coming up with our internal rules. Also, what is the rest of Wikipedia doing? Once all that is sorted we should ensure that all footballer categories have an appropriate intro clarifying the remit of the category in line with the consensus. Eldumpo (talk) 22:56, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Still referring to Adam (then Kolins): if his consensus was to be the correct one, Kolins is doing the exact OPPOSITE, he removes the category of the "born and raised" stuff, leaves only the "international footballer" category. And, i repeat, NO SUMMARIES!

Addressing Dumpo's query, the intro was also rendered very clear last time round: Amorebieta, for example, due to his international allegiance shift, should have "...is a VENEZUELAN footballer who plays for...", the rest of his intro also explains he represented Spain at YOUTH level. Regards to you all (including Kolins!) - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I think we strayed a bit off-topic there, with regards to this hypothetical player that GianSnowman envisaged. Does everyone agree he should have the categories; Category:Wales international footballers, Category:Welsh footballers(I personally don't agree with this one), Category:England youth international footballers and Category:English footballers. Adam4267 (talk) 00:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In reply to Giant Snowman's hypothetical question, he should keep his English footballer category and also add Welsh footballer and Welsh international footballer. Just because he represents Wales doesn't mean he stops being English. So yes, I do agree with Giant Snowman. TonyStarks (talk) 03:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not convinced he should go in Welsh footballers as well, as he's not really 'Welsh', he has just played international football for Wales. However, it comes down to what I said above, that the categories should all have an intro explaining the criteria. Eldumpo (talk) 10:15, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

In the long run the only solution is to mass-move category: Xian footballers to category: footballers from Xland and create new and separate category: players capped by the Xian national football team. "Xian" is simply too ambiguous here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with this proposed approach except I think the first category should be Category: Footballers born in X land. Eldumpo (talk) 10:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps; but for now, I think we can all agree that you don't 'lose' the existing nationality categories? GiantSnowman 12:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Most biographies are categorised by nationality. We're just somewhat uniquely sensitive to it because nationality has some direct impact on the sport. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree with Eldumpo, the first category should be footballers born in Xland, the second is fine. Adam4267 (talk) 15:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe it is best to have the "NationX international footballers" categories and the "footballers born in NationX" since those are typically easily verifiable and unambiguous. The "NationX-ish footballers" categories do not have commonly understood meanings, so if we keep them, someone needs to add descriptive text for each that explains which articles belong in the category (i.e., a description of what footballing nationality means). Jogurney (talk) 15:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * But what about those born in X, raised their whole lives in Y, clearly Yish, yet with no international appearances. GiantSnowman 16:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I believe that the "international" categories are the most important intersections (and most deserving of categories). It is interesting to categorize football players by place of birth, passport, or even by their "home town", but I'm not sure how important those distinctions are. Jogurney (talk) 16:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to over complicate and mass move and create new categories and whatever else is being proposed. It's quite simple. Taking the example mentioned in the original post, an English player who goes on to play for Wales. He's an English footballer without a doubt, so there's one cat he's in. He's also a Welsh international footballer, that's another cat he's in. To be a Welsh international footballer, you must be a Welsh football, ie. part of the pool of Welsh footballers eligible to play at the international level. Therefore, he's a Welsh footballer as well and has that category as well. I don't see the problem with having all 3 categories. From my experience, plenty of Algerian players are born in France. Their articles all have "French footballers" and "Algerian footballers" categories, as well "Algeria international footballers". TonyStarks (talk) 21:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Tony. I have been editing biographies using all appliable cats and there has been no problems with that. FkpCascais (talk) 22:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Funny how KOLINS continues to not drop one single line here... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

List of consensuses page
Following on from what was said above, I think we need to establish a page in which we can list our consensuses and stop having to re-hash old debates over and over. This was brought up before but despite most people seeming to agree nothing happened. Adam4267 (talk) 21:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * WikiProject Football/List of consensuses (that is the correct plural) can this page now be made? Adam4267 (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There's unanimity that we need  something . The reason this didn't happen last time was due to concern over the purpose and scope of the page, not least due to the amount of clout that something along the lines of "consensus decisions" or "list of consensuses" would potentially carry. To avoid the possibility of that discussion resulting in another stalemate, I'd suggest that we start the page at WikiProject Football/Perennial discussions, using something along the lines of the template EchetusXe gave in the previous discussion. If the project later decides to lock down issues by explicitly stating that it has a position which is unlikely to change, it wouldn't be too difficult to adapt the page accordingly. —WFC— 01:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We certainly need something so it would be worth working on. Edinburgh  Wanderer  21:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * How about WikiProject Football/MOS issues. Adam4267 (talk) 21:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Transfermarkt
Is extra information available if you are a registred member? That's what I have an editor claiming over at Donaldson Sackey. I have my doubts, seeing as the editor is claiming that Sackey scored 7 in 18 for FC Oss, despite Voetbal International having no record... GiantSnowman 15:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Being a registered member has only two benifits: You are allowed to edit the database, and vote in polls. Extra information is not available. Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, can you please also confirm that no appearance stats are available for Sackey, apart from his two for Oststeinbeker SV in 2011? GiantSnowman 15:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep - that's the only appearance data there. U+003F? 16:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Fantastic - in which case can somebody please revert 's edits over at the Sackey page, as I've already done so three times. GiantSnowman 16:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. U+003F? 16:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Many thanks. I have also posted on the editor's talkpage, directing them here. GiantSnowman 16:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Is there any checking of who becomes a registered member, given that they are then allowed to edit? Can it be regarded as a reliable source? Eldumpo (talk) 17:31, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure; I have my doubts, seeing as on Sackey's profile a spell in Spain has appeared since I created the article, which I suspect has added himself. GiantSnowman 17:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Transfermarkt's database should not be considered a reliable source, precisely because it can be edited. Articles published by transfermarkt on the other hand are usually reliable. Most of them are written by third party sources. Most of the German ones are written by the Deutsche Presse Agentur, for example. This is also not the first time a user has edited transfermarkt for the purpose of adding fake information to Wikipedia. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 47. It's definitely something we need to keep an eye on. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed. As a user-generated site that doesn't publish its sources, it can't be a reliable source in the Wiki sense: see WP:USERG. When it was discussed at the External links noticeboard, its advocate stated that "In many cases (often Eastern Europe, Turkey, Greece and German leagues) the personal data of a player is entered directly from the player or his agent." As if that were a good thing..... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

is continuing add to add these phantom stats to the Sackey article, again claiming Transfermakt supports him, can someobdy else have a word please? I want to keep assuming good faith but my patience will only go so far, and his user name is slightly suspicious... GiantSnowman 20:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Done, reverted their changes & gave the user a 3rr warning, & reinforced the suggestion they should join the discussion & advised transfermarkt isn’t considered reliable. (&#9733;&#9734; DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733;) 20:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC))

Wait a sec. I became registered editor at Transfermarkt and I have to make a correction of what has been said here. There is indeed a filter on Transfermarkt edits, when editing you have to provide a source for all edits and then the changes go to an admin that analises and aproves changes. The way some said it here, you left an idea that Transfermarkt is a site like WP where edits are donne directly without control, but that is not trouth. I made several edits on several players, and only the sourced info was put in place, and usually when you submit a change it takes a couple of days for an admin to check it and do the changes in the article. FkpCascais (talk) 22:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Honours
Even though the consensus was made the last one or two discussions (it being that runner-up counts in domestic cups and some national team competitions - thus also third-places for the latter - medals are handed out):

Those "runner-up" positions continue to be removed in FC Barcelona and Real Madrid players (the only ones i follow extensively in that matter), without ONE WORD in summary. Also per summaries, i see i am THE ONLY ONE reverting this situation. Quite off-putting but that's OK, unfortunately i am unemployed...

Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Vasco everyone has to deal with vandalism. In fact today I got this charming edit . Seriously, I know it's annoying but you don't need to come here every time. The IPs will have absolutely no idea what our consensuses are they are just making changes cos they think it should all be done their way. Just revert it and don't get so worked up about it. Adam4267 (talk) 00:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Absolutely right ADAM, you're right, the anon IPs don't follow the discussions here...Wish i did not get so annoyed by it man! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 00:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeh they can be annoying sometimes but that's just one of the joys of Wikipedia. Adam4267 (talk) 00:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Please see
Please see Templates_for_discussion/Log/2011_November_22 and the general suggestion there. Debresser (talk) 09:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Spanish translation
The 2011 Copa Libertadores Femenina has its group stage finished. There are some contrary reports of who plays who in the semi-finals. Interestingly enough even the CONMEBOL website doesn't seemed to be sure :). See Option A this wanted to pair the two best first place finishers, that quotes the regulations. Option B was to pair Group B and C winners. Soccerway had Winner A vs winner B set til yesterday. During the tournament, on 14 November it seems they changed it the way that if 2 Brazil teams make the semifinals they would be paired automatically together. So the match Santos - Sao Jose seems to be fixed now, FIFA and soccerway confirming that. I put a text above the bracket trying to explain that situation. Could a Spanish speaking person confirm that Option A was indeed pairing the best two first place finisher? -Koppapa (talk) 14:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The link you put with Option A says that the three winners and the best second-placed team will be ranked according their points, so that the best of the three top-teams will be #1, the second best #2, and the worst top-team #3, leaving #4 to the best second-placed team. Then #1 would play #4, and #2 against #3. This said, I have to add that the Conmebol rarely gives some accurate info on anything. You just wait, and they might surprise you with 6 classified teams from nowhere... Ipsumesse (talk) 15:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Jason Beardsley
I don't know where to put this, but there is a user who constantly removes referenced Stafford Rangers information in the Jason Beardsley article.--95.150.248.89 (talk) 22:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * User:Maggy1992 claims to be Beardsley's representative (see this edit). --  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 22:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The information he is removing is sourced and i can find others to verify it. Ive added to my watch list. Appears to be a conflict of interest.  Edinburgh   Wanderer  22:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, regardless of whether Maggy/Dave who he/she says he/she is, or not, we have rules on Wikipedia and a supposed representative of a player removing sourced information about him violates at least 2 of our rules. Adam4267 (talk) 22:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

UEFA Euro qualification (again)
Some time ago I brought a table of my userspace to everyone's notice. Judging from the subsequent lack of comments by other contributors, it did not then receive much attention. Having meanwhile updated the table to reflect the outcomes of the Euro 2012 qualifying play-offs, I now once again offer it to your attention and ask you for any opinions about how and where this table could fit in the article namespace, if anyhow and anywhere. I'll be glad to hear anything, and not even in the slightest would I bother if someone comes up with a "not now" or "not at all" judgement. --Theurgist (talk) 03:58, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I apologise, I wasn´t much active by the time you posted the question the first time. With regard to the table, it looks great in my view, and I like very much your attention to detail, such as the group places for the teams not qualified. I find your table very usefull, complete and informative. There is only one catch: sources. In my view, if you list them at bottom, your table should be ready to go. FkpCascais (talk) 05:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a good idea but I'm gonna be a little less positive. It takes quite a lot of decoding and could do with a quite a bit of simplification. Remember that these tables are summaries - they do not/should not need to contain everything. This table is not intuitive enough. Specific comments:
 * Just blank out all the inactive/did not enter/non-U stuff in the same way as you have with the non-existent countries. The only exception I'd make is where teams have withdrawn or been suspended. Where this is the case, write the text in normal colour font.
 * Only use the red box for people who qualify as hosts. This removes some of the complication, and the need for the 'Qhost' stuff - just put 'Q' in a red box. This standardises the table with others on Wikipedia. Highlight the hosts as well as other qualifiers - it means someone scanning through can quickly pick out all the qualifiers.
 * In the years which ended with a knock out, just put 'sf'. The fact that they qualified is indicated by the highlighting
 * Similarly, in the qual group + knock out years (68-76), remove the details of the qual group. There's no need to add information about earlier rounds and this simplifies things a little.
 * Hope that helps and sorry for not noticing the original post. As for where: why not add it to the info currently in the subheadings 'Participation details' and 'General statistics' at UEFA European Football Championship, and create a new 'National team appearances at the UEFA European Football Championship', or some such name. Pretty Green (talk) 12:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, that undoubtedly helps, thanks. I'll explain in detail some ideas I had in mind, in case they're not sufficiently obvious.
 * I was aiming to present a summary of the teams' performances in the qualification tournaments only; the table has no interest in what happened in the subsequent final tournaments.
 * I was also aiming to distinguish the successful completions of campaigns (denoted by golden backgrounds) and the eventual participations in the finals (red boxes) as two different things that do not necessarily come together in all cases. Automatic qualifiers (hosts, that is) and Denmark in 1992 have the red box but not the golden shading; Yugoslavia in 1992 has the golden shading but not the red box. The table treats "Qhost" essentially as a non-participation in the qualifying cycle, not very much unlike "inact", "non-U" and the others.
 * There is actually a little problem with the red boxes, because they make certain cells appear bordered when in fact they are not (Romania in 2004, Sweden in 1996, Switzerland in 2000). More of those are likely to appear in the future when the 24-team format comes into effect. A solution could be to get rid of the red boxes at all, as the final tournaments are irrelevant for the table, although this wouldn't make a great contribution to the table's informativeness.
 * The inact/DNE/non-U information, if it clutters the layout too much, could be represented as sourced footnotes, and long rows of separate cells (Andorra 1960 through 1996) could be merged as one to improve readability. I think this information is, after all, valuable, because for example each of Croatia, Liechtenstein and Israel had fundamentally different reasons not to enter the qualifying tournaments until 1996.
 * As for the sources, they are arguably a necessity, but I observe that this article (of which I'm planning to make a UEFA Euro analogue) doesn't have them in abundance, and this table doesn't cite a single one, not even for the goalscorers, and all figures there appear to be obtained just with straightforward calculations. So if I make 53 calculations like this one:
 * {| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"

!Year !Pld !W !D !L !GS !GA
 * + England
 * + England
 * 1960
 * 1964
 * 2 || 0 || 1 || 1 || 3 || 6
 * 1968
 * 8 || 6 || 1 || 1 || 18 || 6
 * 1972
 * 8 || 5 || 2 || 1 || 16 || 6
 * 1976
 * 6 || 3 || 2 || 1 || 11 || 3
 * 1980
 * 8 || 7 || 1 || 0 || 22 || 5
 * 1984
 * 8 || 5 || 2 || 1 || 23 || 3
 * 1988
 * 6 || 5 || 1 || 0 || 19 || 1
 * 1992
 * 6 || 3 || 3 || 0 || 7 || 3
 * 1996
 * 2000
 * 10 || 4 || 4 || 2 || 16 || 5
 * 2004
 * 8 || 6 || 2 || 0 || 14 || 5
 * 2008
 * 12 || 7 || 2 || 3 || 24 || 7
 * 2012
 * 8 || 5 || 3 || 0 || 17 || 5
 * Total
 * 90 || 56 || 24 || 10 || 190 || 55
 * }
 * then can I take out the results and use them to construct a similar table for the European Championship qualification tournaments?
 * My idea was to eventually create a new article at UEFA Euro qualification, which is now there just as a redirect (and is linked from Template:Qualification for championships (UEFA)). I think the two tables will suffice for the skeleton, and the rest can be filled in with some text and sources. All this is likely not to happen very soon as I'm kind of busy these days, but we're not on a schedule, and the significant expansions of the UEFA Euro topic are expected only next summer. If someone feels like doing any of that work for me, please feel most free to do so! --Theurgist (talk) 03:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 2000
 * 10 || 4 || 4 || 2 || 16 || 5
 * 2004
 * 8 || 6 || 2 || 0 || 14 || 5
 * 2008
 * 12 || 7 || 2 || 3 || 24 || 7
 * 2012
 * 8 || 5 || 3 || 0 || 17 || 5
 * Total
 * 90 || 56 || 24 || 10 || 190 || 55
 * }
 * then can I take out the results and use them to construct a similar table for the European Championship qualification tournaments?
 * My idea was to eventually create a new article at UEFA Euro qualification, which is now there just as a redirect (and is linked from Template:Qualification for championships (UEFA)). I think the two tables will suffice for the skeleton, and the rest can be filled in with some text and sources. All this is likely not to happen very soon as I'm kind of busy these days, but we're not on a schedule, and the significant expansions of the UEFA Euro topic are expected only next summer. If someone feels like doing any of that work for me, please feel most free to do so! --Theurgist (talk) 03:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 90 || 56 || 24 || 10 || 190 || 55
 * }
 * then can I take out the results and use them to construct a similar table for the European Championship qualification tournaments?
 * My idea was to eventually create a new article at UEFA Euro qualification, which is now there just as a redirect (and is linked from Template:Qualification for championships (UEFA)). I think the two tables will suffice for the skeleton, and the rest can be filled in with some text and sources. All this is likely not to happen very soon as I'm kind of busy these days, but we're not on a schedule, and the significant expansions of the UEFA Euro topic are expected only next summer. If someone feels like doing any of that work for me, please feel most free to do so! --Theurgist (talk) 03:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My idea was to eventually create a new article at UEFA Euro qualification, which is now there just as a redirect (and is linked from Template:Qualification for championships (UEFA)). I think the two tables will suffice for the skeleton, and the rest can be filled in with some text and sources. All this is likely not to happen very soon as I'm kind of busy these days, but we're not on a schedule, and the significant expansions of the UEFA Euro topic are expected only next summer. If someone feels like doing any of that work for me, please feel most free to do so! --Theurgist (talk) 03:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm in general agreement that I don't think you need sources to start with: you only have to be able to provide them if challenged, which we could easily do. As for the red boxes v gold colouring - I see your point. If you put a box around the hosts only, but don't highlight them then: you remove the problem of boxes which appear bordered but aren't; and you show that a nation has qualified, without competing in the qualifying tournament. --Pretty Green (talk) 11:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I just mention sources because wp generally incentivates their usage. Not sure about templates, but generally sources are used, and not only when things are challenged. In this case it should not be difficult, I guess UEFA official website has all the results avaliable, so just mentioning a source where all this can be confirmed wan´t heart no one. But, even I created unsourced templates in the past, so I am OK anyway. Best regards, FkpCascais (talk) 21:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Of course, all will be open for further improvement after it's been posted in the main namespace - we needn't get everything perfect right now. Here are all other tables analogous to the above one. Anyone who feels like filling them in can do so. By the way, am I recalling correctly that while FIFA considers both the Czech Republic and Slovakia to be inheritors of the Czechoslovakia team, UEFA on its part attributes Czechoslovakia's records to the Czech Republic only? --Theurgist (talk) 03:16, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I beleave you are right about Czechoslovakia being succeded by both Czech Republic and Slovakia. The Czechoslovakia national football team confirms that at the end of the first paragraph, althouth it is unsourced. If I recall well, initially only Czech Rep. was recognised as successor, but Slovakia protested and got to be recongnised a well. I´ll try to confirm that and bring some source if I find it. FkpCascais (talk) 20:40, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Internacional articles
Can someone with a bit of time to spare check, and undo as necessary, the edits of User:Joe 9. This account, and others I'm sure, were a persistent nuisance at Leandro Damião for some time and this person was warned on several occasions. It involved adding statistics other than the league to the infobox and even they appeared to be inaccurate. After almost a month of inactivity this person has returned with rubbish like this. The career statistics table on Pato's article is correct so not only is it annoying, it's false. I don't have time to go through them all right now, but I did revert this pearler. If it carries on then a block is in order. Argyle 4 Life talk  18:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've had a look at some of them, and fixed some where the figures were wrong even where I was sure what he was counting. But I don't know what leagues should go in the infobox: do we only count the Brasileirão, or should other league competitions go in the infobox as well, e.g. Campeonato Gaucho? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for helping. I've only been including Brasileirão because it's the national league. Gaúcho is a state championship and there are lots of them. I notice that Joe updated Pato's infobox correctly the other day – albeit without the datestamp – which is good. Argyle 4 Life  talk  14:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

John Barnes (footballer)
Hi, just bringing it up that the image on John Barnes (footballer) has been removed by User:Jprw. This user feels the quality of the image to be substandard, but I don't think it's all that bad. Not to the extent that the article is better off without it at least. Anyway, what do others think? Here's the image. Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 20:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not that bad a picture, definitely should not have been removed. Adam4267 (talk) 20:20, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I would probably want to deem that as not really of publishable quality. Technically (is if I know anything about the technical side of photography), it looks rather soft focus/lacking in definition; composition wise, it lacks the football context that makes Barnes notable, and has someone else's detached ear hovering suspiciously to his left.  I probably wouldn't have removed it (though I have just this evening removed a photo with lots of shake from Marlon King, and took one down from Jonás Gutiérrez some time ago) but there again WP:images is rather undemanding. Kevin McE (talk) 22:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You can still clearly see what he looks like though, unlike the other two that you removed, and while it's not great I would say that a decent picture is better than no picture at all. Adam4267 (talk) 22:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless there is some higher Wiki-wide policy that I am not aware of, the acid test should surely be whether or not the image is clear enough to be confident that it shows what it claims to show. On that basis I can see why the Marlon King one might be deemed inappropriate, but not the John Barnes one. If we had a better free image of Barnes we should of course go with that instead, but that's true of absolutely all content. —WFC— 22:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I took a usable one of Mr King the other week, will upload it when I'm a bit more awake than I am now. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 22:40, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

club
Is there a reason why "club" is treated as a singular noun in Liverpool & Man U articles (both FAs) and not in many others?. "The club were..... " sounds very tabloid newspaper. Tabloid usage should be discouraged. Does this project have an MoS about this? 92.40.59.202 (talk) 15:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Both articles use a mixture of the singular and plural as far as I can tell? 'Club' is generally plural in British English, and singular in American English, though both are recognised. I'm not sure what the standards are elsewhere. --Pretty Green (talk) 15:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It's the discretionary plural. I tend to use Liverpool/the club/the team are, but it's a matter of preference. Nonetheless, there should be consistency across an article. U+003F? 15:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In British English, "club" when used to mean the singular structure or legal entity that is Footown Football Club takes the singular verb; "club" when used as a synonym for "the team" or "Footown" to mean the players who represent it on the field, as in "the club were FA Cup-winners in 2022", takes the plural. The discretionary plural section specifically mentions use of place names referring to sports teams as taking the plural. Personally, I find "the club were" an uncomfortable usage, so tend to restrict use of the word to the singular entity: "the club was founded in 1892", and when I mean the team, I use "the team" or Footown, or restructure the sentence to avoid the problem. In American English, they'd all take the singular, a simpler approach. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I was about to post exactly what Struway2 wrote! Number   5  7  16:34, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My only problem with that is when you have "Manchester United Football Club are the reigning champions. The club has now won 19 titles." One is plural, the other singular yet both meet the grammar rules. That's an extreme example, but I'd rather see consistency of singular/plural throughout an entire article, rather than flipping between the two, even if club sometimes suggests a singular/plural meaning. Then again some of that is the English language's falldown which would rarely happen in other languages. Brad78 (talk) 19:59, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why should there be consistency on here when there is none elsewhere? I have no problem switching between the two uses, and don't think that many readers see it as a problem. English has no rules (there is no equivalent of the Academie Francaise) but I think most native writers and readers would instinctively recognise when a plural or singular use is out of place without being able to explain 100% why. Number   5  7  21:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately we don't have a strong consensus to use the plural form even in English clubs. I try to ensure that articles use the plural consistently when I can, but in cases like Man U and Liverpool (where the vast majority of the fanbase is outside the UK) it's far harder. For what it's worth, the British media are extremely consistent in using the plural (although several sources, including the BBC, consistently use the singular instead when referring to a club in the context of the business). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Sourcing help.
Hey guys, I'm doing a bit of work on James Forrest (footballer born 1991) and there's a dead link because Celtic re-structured their website a while ago. I haven't been able to find another aource but I found a random forum with the article copied on to it. Can it be used? Adam4267 (talk) 15:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The Internet Archive has the article, at http://web.archive.org/web/20100111015611/http://www.celticfc.net/news/stories/news_020909125702.aspx . For me, it comes up in white print on a white background, which isn't particularly helpful, but if you do Edit-Select all, it becomes visible. If you're using cite web, leave the original info in place, and put the archive url in the archiveurl= parameter and set the archivedate= parameter to the date contained in the url, which is the 20100110 bit. On the general question, I'd guess you shouldn't really use a forum copy, because there's no guarantee of a forum posting being an accurate copy of the original, even though 99.99...% of the time it will be. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I did that and it worked. Thanks. Adam4267 (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Medals instead of words
An unregistered editor has made himself very busy changing the highest achievement of national teams, as recorded in the infobox, from text to a graphic sample differential. Personally I'm not a fan, but I've suggested that he desist from doing any more until there is some sort of consensus here. Thoughts? Kevin McE (talk) 07:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it is not as unesthetic as I first imagined it while reading your post, but there is a catch: the numbers 2 or 3 in the case you presented may not be as obvious as should, thus perhaps betten not going that way. I mean, we know what they mean, but less infomed may wander if the means 3th place, 3 appereances, 3 times... FkpCascais (talk) 07:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not a huge fan of those medal symbols replacing the normal text. Eldumpo (talk) 08:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * MOS:IMAGES says that "Textual information should almost always be entered as text rather than as an image", and that "Any important textual information in an image should also appear in the image's alt text, caption, or other nearby text." So if the MoS says we shouldn't use images instead of text, and that if we use images that contain important textual information, we should use explanatory text as well, there's not really much point in using the images. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

gold1, silver2 and bronze3 are intended exclusively for use in tables where the sorting order must be preserved. They are not for general use to indicate first- to third-place. Kill with fire. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Agree with others, these aren't appropriate and should be undone. Camw (talk) 11:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Jamie Vardy or is it!
This is bizzare, someone changed the infobox name from Jamie Vardy to Varney, so I thaught fair enough ill revert it but occupied with other things at the moment (Im a Celeb!) so I come back and a different user has Moved the page to Jamie Varney. Can someone help, im confused! Cheers!  Liam Taylor  22:08, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've moved it back and corrected the spelling in the article, and added a note at the talk page. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Júlio Regufe Alves
Vandal took it up a notch, now not only the box goes, but also the reference in PERSONAL which i provided last week. Clearly trying to get me to feed him, OK, i'll handle the "beast" my way... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 16:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I know that you won't but it's worth saying anyway; don't let them get to you. Revert, warn and if they continue then request a block. Argyle 4 Life  talk  20:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Pointless edit-warring
No real reason for me to write this other than to get it off my chest. Have you ever been involved in an editing dispute with someone and want to hold your head in your hands? Yesterday a former player returned to the club that I support on loan, but the article about it on our official website was poorly worded. The loaning club, the BBC and Sky all said it was a loan, however one user steadfastly refused to believe it. Insisting he had been released and joined us as a free agent, I explained that if that were the case then he wouldn't have been able to join another club until January because it had occurred outside the transfer window. Still not accepting it, the main article was changed again, along with giving him a squad number that hasn't been confirmed, and a message was left on my main page, not the talk page – I undid both.

I come back now to find that the edit on my own page was reverted and the loan parameter on the squad list had been removed again before the user restored it a couple of minutes later. To round it all off, the messages I left on his talk page explaining the situation were removed and the edit summary: it is a transfer he was released no debate needed facts are clear :). Awesome, isn't it? If I ever have to provide someone with a reason not to get involved with Wikipedia then this would be right up there. Incredibly pointless. Argyle 4 Life  talk  23:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * And yet there's nothing on either the article or the player talk pages from either of you. For such trivialities there should be no need for edit warring. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're preaching to the converted here. There was nothing to debate so I addressed him directly with evidence to back up what I was saying. It was met with hostility. Very silly indeed. I'm currently going back and forth with IP's who are in denial about Jake Cole's full name and height, despite it being referenced. Fun. Argyle 4 Life  talk  20:35, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

FA Cup season articles
Simple question: Can someone explain why the FA Cup season articles list the matches in draw order rather than in alphabetical order? -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 07:18, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter which way they are. -Koppapa (talk) 10:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Whilst it's perhaps not a major issue, the matches should really be listed according to the common sources. I see that in 2009-10 RSSSF listed them in alphabetical order. If the current format continues, there ought to be some explanation that 'Tie No' relates to when they were drawn out of the hat. Eldumpo (talk) 12:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

England international players
With the article on Tommy White, a milestone has been reached for the project: every player who has ever appeared for England now has a Wikipedia article. A large number of the articles in Category:England international footballers are still stubs however, along the lines "XXX was an English footballer who played for Y and Z, as well as the English national side" so there's still plenty of work to do. Happy editing! -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 21:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Congratulations to all those who worked on them... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 22:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Clayton Donaldson
Hi, I've had a disagreement with User:Pointer1 at Clayton Donaldson and would appreciate any feedback on the best way forward. I've left him a message on his talkpage but he's yet to reply so thought I'd bring it up here. I'm arguing that the title of reference number two should be "First Team" rather than "First Team - Clayton Donaldson", so as it more closely reflects what the webpage actually gives the title as (only a minor point really, but nonetheless). Also, I'm saying references published by clubs should end with "F.C" rather than "FC", so it reflects what clubs' articles are actually titled as (e.g. the Wikipedia article for Crewe Alexandra is "Crewe Alexandra F.C." rather than "Crewe Alexandra FC"). Finally, I say that references published by The Press should be called that, as it's the newspaper's name, rather than York Press, which doesn't exist. Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 17:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) If it was me, I'd call ref#2 "First Team: Clayton Donaldson". The webpage title bar has "Crewe Alexandra | Team | First Team | Clayton Donaldson", and the page content doesn't really have a title. But if a dash is preferred as a separator, it needs to be an endash rather than a hyphen, per MOS:DASH;
 * 2) I use "Crewe Alexandra F.C", with a full stop after the F but not after the C, thus keeping the dots, which are still common usage (or we'd be changing the names of all the football club articles) but avoiding the double full stop in the reference list;
 * 3) newspaper=The Press is unquestionably correct. We're citing newspapers which happen to have a convenience link on a website, so we use the name of the newspaper, not an invention based on the domain name. See WP:CITE. Including location=York would be helpful, and encouraged by WP:CITE.
 * You'd best let him know you've raised the matter here. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For 1&3 I always use the same approach as that taken by Struway. For number 2 I tend to leave out the full stops but I have never really considered it, and if someone came in and put full stops in all the refs I wouldn't revert it. Adam4267 (talk) 18:56, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * On an unrelated note, there's some really wacky linking in that article. " ....and was educated at a school in the city " is seriously excessive, and piping "relationship" to Human sexuality is just bizarre...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably me going linking crazy during my noob days. Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Also, what about the publishers that have been added e.g. Newsquest Media Group; is it particularly important for the readers of this article to know who publishes these newspapers? Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 23:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh, we've all been there. I agree with Struway on what you should do. Including the publisher depends on the editor really, if you do then it needs to be uniform, which it appears to be. It's disappointing that you have been reverted; the York Press isn't a newspaper. Great article, by the way. Argyle 4 Life  talk  00:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to play a little of devil's advocate here; or perhaps be a pedant. However, taking reference 3 for example, it says the newspaper is "The Press". However, The Press was called York Evening Press or was it The Evening Press, but certainly not "The Press" at the time that story was printed. Brad78 (talk) 19:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Note of blargh
I wanted to make a note here of my disappointment and frustration with editors in the footy project for what I see as the tendency to assume new articles about players should be deleted. I understand that some of you are frustrated that so many clearly nonnotable players have articles created. But sometimes it actually swings the other way. Bradden Inman was recreated after a mention on this very project's talk page. It was given the go ahead but it was requested that an admin take a look. A look at the deletion log for the article shows that an admin did review and pull the trigger on allowing the article. While many young and maybe "promising" players receive some coverage, Inman received in-depth coverage from global sources discussing everything from his childhood to present day. Unfortunately, the first two versions of the article did not have those sources and I assume that swayed some people's assumptions. I spent the 10 minutes to find the sources and created something that was at least a little better than a stub while not being a fan page. That is what editors are supposed to do, right? An argument could also be made that FOOTY is met are damn close with him being on the bench for a premier league match and a Carling Cup tie. At the time the article was recreated, the guy was even shown as a first team player at NUFC's webpage. I feel a little bad for ranting but wanted to throw it out there since so many editors are bent towards being deletionist since so many poor articles are written about nonnotable players. The recent version that was just deleted was meant to be much better than those and it sucks that editors here have become so jaded that they won't even consider it (well, four editors if you include me thought it might be OK but we didn't pay enough attention to make comments at the deletion discussion while it was poo pooed). Cptnono (talk) 04:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed that in this case, there's certainly sufficient claim to notability GNG-wise in the revision which went to AfD. However, the simple fact is that this project is almost uniquely burdened by BLP and that it's hard enough to keep on top of that for players whom we can guarantee will be in the news every week (through NFOOTBALL); simply put, it doesn't really make sense to work on article for players who aren't at that level yet in mainspace because they're always going to be subject to deletion nominations from editors with a particularly strict approach to bio notability. It makes sense to work on these in userspace and move them once NFOOTBALL is met. Another good example is Paul Pogba, whose (very good) article was deleted again not long before he made a Champions League appearance. It was then worked on in userspace and recreated when there was no chance of it being re-nominated. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Re:Inman]], the last AfD had zero keep votes, even from you Cptnono. If you're still upset, then WP:DRV is your best bet. GiantSnowman 15:55, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * For starters, I'd just like to apologize again to the OP for not making you aware of the AfD, I usually have no problems with Twinkle informing users but for whatever reason it didn't do so that time. As for the player in question, I would have to disagree with you. For me, if he's going to be notable on Wikipedia for being a football player, the bare minimum is for him to be playing at a notable level. There's tons of articles, interviews, reports, etc. done with youth team players that have huge potential but as you probably know, not all go on to become professional players, for whatever reason. Using your logic, every single one of them should have his own article .. and for what? For being good at the amateur/youth level? It would mean guys that might have quit football and gone on to study in university or work some odd job having an article, without being notable (as per our definition) for what the article is about. Now, if the player was a youth team player and went to have a huge showing at say the FIFA U17 or U20 World Cup (like Souleymane Coulibaly), then I'd have absolutely no problem with them having an article .. but a youth/reserve team player with 0 professional appearances is pushing it for me. That's just my opinion, I'm sure some will agree while others will disagree. Take care. TonyStarks (talk) 15:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Potential sock alert
I'm not sure yet, but I'm worried might be a sock of a user we've had problems with before. bogdan began editing about a month after dragosh's block went into effect. He/she has created four articles, all four of which were previously created by dragosh and subsequently deleted. (Note: Sergiu Muth has since achieved notability per WP:NSPORT.) Just wanted to give the project a heads up. Cheers. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * SOCK, no conversations with the "folks" whatsoever (DRAGOSH that is), recreating articles which have been deleted? Maybe another BLOCK (not that they'll learn anything)?! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 17:03, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Amazed
No talk here about Gary Speed's untimely demise? Would have been a good thing to collaborate on and feature as soon as possible. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good idea, count me in. Happy to start by tidying up the Everton section. U+003F?</tt> 20:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a news service. That people did not immediately clamber over each other to report this is a massive positive in my book. The same applies to any other tragic death, or indeed any other current news article at all. If people want to be journalists / eulogists they should write to their local newspapers inquiring about open positions. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 20:16, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, perhaps you misread, I think it would make a really good featured article. If you want to promote some other point of view, go for it.  This is about an opportunity for us to shine as a project, you clearly see it another way.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't misread: you miswrote. The subject of your first sentence is "Gary Speed's untimely demise". Your second sentence refers implicitly to that subject. Leaving that aside, the article in question certainly could be WP:ITN-worthy. On a different note, I've been numb for most of the day after this news: utterly tragic. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 21:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Chris, get off the high horse and start assuming the good faith that maybe my six-odd years of contributions warrant. Perhaps I should have been more overt: let's get Gary Speed to WP:FAC as soon as possible.  I regret the fact that you thought anything different and anything clamourous or eulogistic.  Let's do the article and him justice.  It's already been ITN-screwed (it's not a US-article) so we should focus on getting it fixed up and featured.  I'm very proud to be a member of this project community and I think it would be amazing if we could all pull together and get his article to featured quality.  Putting it plainly, a modern footballer has many easily accessible references and with the sad and ongoing coverage, we should be able to make a good attempt to cover his life as best we can.  Note, this is not a plea for a memorial, it's merely a request that such a good and able project take on the idea of working together to get this article up to featured status. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It would be a fitting tribute from members of this wikiproject to expand his article. I'm kinda amazed about the quality of his article, only 4 sentences each about his Leeds and Newcastle career. He is surely more notable than that and his wikipedia article doesn't reflect that. I'll be happy to help, but I wasn't into football until the 2000s so I know almost nothing about his early career. RIP Gary Speed. — MT (talk) 03:55, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * All the best folks with that project! RIP Gary Speed! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We need to concentrate on his wonderful career, not his tragic death. GiantSnowman 10:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Had a go at expanding the section on his time at Everton. Whilst I think it's a great idea to get the article to WP:FAC, is that likely given its instability now? <tt style="color:gray">U+003F</tt><tt style="color:red">?</tt> 18:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I suspect it'll take a good couple of months before we could get it to FAC, so not a real problem. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:43, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Uploading non-free files with fair-use reationales
I am trying to upload this picture, (1967 European Cup Final programme) and I can't seem to do it the normal way on Wikimedia commons. Anyone know how to do it? Adam4267 (talk) 18:42, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not an expert on images and Wikimedia Commons so I might be wrong on this but from what I understand, you can't upload non-free stuff on Commons. You have to upload them to the English Wikipedia using fair-use rationale. Click on the Upload file button on the left menu and just select fair-use rationale and fill in all the information as required. TonyStarks (talk) 18:51, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks that worked. Adam4267 (talk) 19:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Inter-league representative games
I've come across the stub Scottish League XI article, which I am going to work on mainly using Bob Crampsey's centenary history of the Scottish Football League. I was just wondering how we would name a category for players who played in these matches, as obviously "Scottish Football League players" or "The Football League players" are already used by the general categories for anyone who has played in a match in the relevant competition. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * How about Category:Scottish Football League representative players and Category:The Football League representative players? --  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 22:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there need for a category? Those are just friendlies, right? -Koppapa (talk) 22:36, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Daemonic Kangaroo Category:Scottish Football League representative players and Category:The Football League representative players would be appropriate.  Edinburgh   Wanderer  22:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, they were proper games and caps were awarded. For a long time they were effectively treated as trial international matches, before the nations had "B" or youth international teams. Some pretty significant figures in the history of the game received their only international honours in inter-league matches (e.g. Jock Stein). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 22:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * How about just simply Scottish football league XI players? Adam4267 (talk) 23:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You don't need the "The" in "The Football League Players" - it's ungrammatical; makes them sound like a theatre troupe. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 23:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * hehe.--EchetusXe 00:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with ArtVandelay except that this would not be consistent with other categories such as Category:The Football League players, Category:The Football League managers and Category:The Football League seasons. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 06:07, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Then they ought to be corrected, I think - it's a mistake to add incorrectness on top of incorrectness in the name of consistency. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * On a vaguely related note, is Denmark League XI national football team correctly named? Surely by definition a "league XI" is not a national team?  Having said that, though, the article claims that the Danish League XI can include players not playing in the Danish League....!??!!?!  -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:59, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

African Youth Championship/African U-20 Championship
There is an ongoing move war between and  over the title of this tournament and its 2011, 2013 and 2015 versions. There is now a requested move on the master article but neither side has produced much evidence. As I am getting rather tired of messages on my talk page about the whole issue (and am not inclined to get involved as I am currently busy with the very important issue of 19th century elections in Belgium), I invite everyone else to pile in and try and work out who is (more) right (this ref refers to it by both names...). Cheers, Number   5  7  22:52, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Well there is plenty of evidence at 2011 African Youth Championship that the most recent tournament was referred to in sources as AYC. It may be that the 2013 tournament will end up getting referred to as u 20, and if that happens there will be justification for a move. Eldumpo (talk) 09:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

April Phumo
Recently deceased, first ever manager of the Lesotho national team, per this - could be a potential DYK if people are willing to help out (my time is limted these days I'm afraid). GiantSnowman 11:44, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've attempted to add some information from a few sources, but there is limited coverage before 2000 except in the South African press. I am confused that a few sources report him as Lesotho's first manager, yet other sources indicate he first managed the team in 1979 (despite the country participating in a 10 internationals from 1970 through 1973 according to FIFA's records). Jogurney (talk) 15:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your additions. Were the 10 internationals 'official'? I presume so if FIFA has a record of them. Did they have a 'manager' (by modern standards) back then? GiantSnowman 15:35, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the matches were official since FIFA lists them on its website, but perhaps the team didn't have an official manager at that time. I think we should stick with the source that directly states he managed the team from 1979 to 1995 until something surfaces that indicates he managed the team beginning in 1970. Thank you. Jogurney (talk) 15:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, there could have been a committee, just as England had prior to Walter Winterbottom taking over in 1946. They were playing matches looong before that! GiantSnowman 16:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Liverpool vs Dinamo Bucharest, 1984 European Cup Semi-Final
This article was deleted a month or two ago and it has now been created again. It appears again as a collection of quotes from players, does not describe the events of the match, as articles on matches should do and is not notable enough to be an article in its own right. I was wondering what other members thought of the article, personally I don't think we should have it. NapHit (talk) 17:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Clearly not worth of an article all for itself, in my opinion, that also sets a "dangerous" precedent. --Vasco Amaral (talk) 17:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, the article was userfied following the AfD, and then had various edits and was put up for review at AfC (not come across this before), and someone has reviewed it. Eldumpo (talk) 17:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * have you got a link for this please? would be interesting to read the review. NapHit (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Not sure about a link, I looked through that WikiProjects archives and only found a link to the articles talk page which has nothing on it apart from the WP banner. The, User:Jprw, who wrote the article in all likliness wasn't aware of the fact the article had been deleted or that our notability guidelines and unfortunately has done alot of hard work on an article which should be deleted. Adam4267 (talk) 19:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The creator made their opinion known at the article's AfD in September, as did the person who has "reviewed" the recreation. As Vasco said, if it's allowed to stay then it sets a dangerous precedent. There is nothing there that sets it apart from any other semi-final. Argyle 4 Life  talk  19:37, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I would agree with you there Argyle. This is an incredibly nondescript match. I did not realise that the creator of the article had known it had previously been deleted. Surely he should have checked here before re-creating the article. Adam4267 (talk) 20:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ye it should be deleted, but as I nominated the article last time and have had a few run ins with Jrpw who also edits this article which is currently at FAC, I don't want to nominate the article this time in case he starts editing the LFC in Europe article disruptively as he did last time. Would greatly appreciate someone taking the matter to AFD, seeing as it was deleted before I'm fairly certain it will be deleted again, especially as it is essentially just a load of quotes from autobiographies! NapHit (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand that, I will nominate the article later tonight then. Make sure that if he is disruptive you come here immediately and don't try and deal with it on your own. Sabotaging someones hard work because of a disagreement on another article is IMO, one of the worst things you can do on WP and I've had it happen to me before. Adam4267 (talk) 22:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've Afd'd it. Adam4267 (talk) 23:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Cheers, greatly appreciated. NapHit (talk) 19:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Apparently this is all part of some gigantic anti-Graeme Souness conspiracy amongst fans of teams who don't like Rangers. Sheesh. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:37, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I like how people who give valid reasons for deleting the article are rounded on by the creator, who accuses them of being biased and uncivil. This should've been G4'd when it was found, but the AfD has been open for a week now and there is clear consensus, so let's end this farce. Argyle 4 Life  talk  04:03, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

List of Iranian futsal clubs in 2010–11 season
I just wanted to share this interesting list. A 09-10 version exists as well. Perhaps a little too crufty since league articles exist? Vanadus (talk | contribs) 10:18, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say yes. -Koppapa (talk) 08:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Be WP:BOLD and nominate it for deletion. GiantSnowman 09:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also lists of football clubs in each season exist too. See List of Iranian football clubs in 2011–12 season, List of Iranian football clubs in 2010–11 season, List of Iranian football clubs in 2009–10 season. Although they repeat information given in the main articles, they do provide an organized and clear results summary of every club in a season. In other words, each one is essentially a synthesis of the league page, the cup page, and international competition page. Still appears a little crufty though... Vanadus (talk | contribs) 09:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Terry Smith (football)
This well known figure in the history of Chester City cropped up on my watchlist, but I don't have the appetite to deal with a BLP matter alone at this point in time. None of the material added to the article since 27 February is sourced, indeed reliable sources have been lost since. Also, a lot of it is POV – "almost defeated Manchester City as the score was 1-1 with 11 minutes left" is certainly one way to describe a late 4-1 defeat.

There is no question that the 27 February version is a stronger base than the 30 November one, in terms of POV and sourcing. I have reverted on those grounds, but a few things make me uneasy about leaving it at that. The first is that however blatant the POV I have removed, and however solid the sourcing I have restored, the version I have reverted to could reasonably be perceived as being negative. The second is the fact that I was heavily involved with the version I reverted to (how it looked before I got involved). The third is that however clear-cut the POV appears to be, I haven't looked into whether the things written about his American football career were factually correct, and indeed some of the material added about Chester might also have been true.

Thanks in advance to anyone who has looked at it. —WFC— 01:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well the line 'Barrow managed a respectable ninth place and won the Conference Trophy in the 2000-2001 season' had me stumped for a minute. I'll change that sentence, heh.--EchetusXe 11:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I like how losing 6-0 to Villa becomes 'lost only 1-0 to Aston Villa on a late handball penalty kick in the 2nd Round of the Worthington Cup'.--EchetusXe 11:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Why did Salamurai remove six reliable sources? Argyle 4 Life  talk  15:53, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Salamurai was trying to tidy up the mess that User:GB Lions left behind in his attempts to re-write the article and big-up Mr Smith. Perhaps "GB Lions" is Smith's agent; it wouldn't be the first time an agent has tried to sanitise his client's article on Wikipedia; e.g. Michael Wilde (User:212.9.31.246) and Michael Knighton (User:Factmaster07) are two that come to mind. --  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 16:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha, just read that there. What a guy, if only the current American owners in the Premier League took a leaf out of his book. It would be much more entertaining. Adam4267 (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Jonathan Soriano
Can someone please have a look at his statistics chart? The last entry (2009-10 ONLY for the cup) does not merit "its own" section, it has to be inserted in the previous entry for the 2009-10 season.

Attentively, ty in advance, happy weekend - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 02:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it should remain seperate - one 2009-10 section is for Barca, the other for Barca B; they are two different clubs. GiantSnowman 09:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * How come i did not notice that?! Silly me, sorry to have bothered "the commission" with that... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 11:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Deletion review for 2011–12 Hannover 96 Season
I started a deletion review 2011–12 Hannover 96 Season here. Anyone can join the discussion. Kingjeff (talk) 06:06, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Quick lede question: footballer or association footballer?
I noteced User:Jojhutton has done a series of edits where he removes the pipe from football to Association football. I beleave we had agreed a long time ago to use the extensive form (association football) only for players that have links with countries where other types of football are popular. As I noteced, the user is American so for him it makes sense, however the articles he made this edit have no relation to USA, Australia or any country where that situation could exist. Exemples: Pál Dárdai, Kostas Eleftherakis, Harold Dean, etc. I reverted him at Pál Dárdai but I will like to consult you all to see if I proceded well. FkpCascais (talk) 07:19, 29 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think it should just pipe to football unless the article has a strong connection to a country where other codes of football are prominent. Eldumpo (talk) 09:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Who uses the term 'association footballer'? No-one. It is either 'footballer' or 'soccer player', depending on where you come from. Have you directed the editor in question here? GiantSnowman 11:11, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I wanted to check it with you all first. FkpCascais (talk) 09:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Apparently the goose and the gander are not are not on the same page. Mostly this comment: The general consensus with most football codes is has been to list the full name of the code, and thus the full link, at its first mention in an article, and then to use the unlinked "football" in the remainder of the article, per ENGVAR. I don't see any reason to change that approach here. by user BilCat. There is also a year old discussion here: Talk:Football/Archive 16, about the same thing. Really I don't care which way this goes, but for consistencies sake, it would be nice to have it be either one way or another. Either simply state Football, or use the entire code. But one type of football should not own the term football over another.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  16:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I definitelly support your call for consistancy and understand your view. I apologise for not notecing you about my post here. FkpCascais (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The consensus on the discussion that you yourself have linked to is that we should use ENGVAR. The fact that "American football" is a commonly used phrase is a red herring – note the prevalence of phrases such as "English footballer" or "English football club" in articles under this project's banner. —WFC— 02:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quite the same reference when English is used to describe the person's nationality, and American is used to describe the sport. Whole different ballgame.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  02:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Suicide/depression/addiction
These issues are increasingly affecting footballers - the deaths of Gary Speed, Robert Enke, Dave Clement, Alan Davies and Justin Fashanu, as well as the large number of players using the Sporting Chance clinic for gambling + other addictions. Are they worth of an article (or articles), and if so, what should we title them? We already have articles on other issues - Racism in association football and Homosexuality in association football. GiantSnowman 13:54, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd say not. The two existing topics deal with the particular relevance to football of the social issues of racism and homophobia. Suicide, depression and addiction are personal issues with no relevance to football other than that footballers suffer from them just like people from all other walks of life. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * But then again Struway, racism and homophobia can also afflict non-footballers, and in fact it does. --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't say otherwise. The existing articles are supposed to deal with the effects of racism and homophobia on and within football, although they do seem to be turning into lists of incidents more than a discussion of the problem(s). Depression and addiction affect the sufferer, who may be a footballer, and have knock-on effects on their friends and colleagues, who may be footballers, but I don't see that they have particular effects on and within football as a sport. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally Struway I disagree, these issues affect ordinary people, usually more than footballers. I don't think there is enough coverage on suicide/depression for it to warrant it's own article. Maybe a category could be created for "Footballers who have admitted to having suffered from depression" or a more elegantly worded equivalent (Not "Footballers who have suffered from depression", though, because we only know the ones who admit it) there is already one for suicides as well. I definitely think there should be one for addictions; gambling, alcohol, drugs, prostitutes. There are LOTS of footballers who have had any one of these vices and there is an extremely large amount of coverage whenever it is found out. One suggestion though, why not call it "Addictions (There could probably be a page for each vice) in association football in the UK". Because, lets face it, apart from a few high profile foreign incidents. That is what it is going to be. Adam4267 (talk) 15:11, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Adding: i do not feel an OWN article is warranted, but the mention of the personal situation being inserted in the player's article individually instead (i.e. George Best, or as i once did in Omar Oreste Corbatta). Cheers - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Struway, I see where you're coming from - but what about the Sporting Chance clinic, set up to deal wholly with these issues? GiantSnowman 15:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Found this article on depression in football . Maybe there could be enough coverage to have an article on that as well. Or we could just have one "Mental illnesses in football" which could cover addictions, depression etc. Adam4267 (talk) 15:54, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "Mental illness" sounds a bit iffy re:BLP, and also doesn't cover gambling addiction. Something to do with 'Psychological issues in association football' would be better perhaps? GiantSnowman 16:00, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * (Not sure where to indent to, replying to several bits)... The existence of the Sporting Chance clinic allows sportspeople to receive treatment for their problems tailored to their needs, in the same way as the Priory does for other celebrities, and the NHS and others attempt to for the rest of us. Its existence doesn't mean that the issues have any special relevance to football. But that's just my opinion. If multiple reliable sources for the subject " in football" exist, then it may (but not necessarily should) have an article. But we need to be very careful that we don't end up with a list of sportspeople with little or no encyclopedic value under the guise of an article on " in football". The second paragraph of the WP:BLP policy is worth a look (or 3rd, the one that begins "Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively"). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see what's wrong with a list, in theory, (although there would be a fair amount of prose as well I'd think). When the media reports on these things they rarely take an in-depth look at the social problems faced by footballers. They usually just say something along the lines of "Gazza's booze binge". Adam4267 (talk) 16:43, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * But we'd need an in-depth look in order to justify the existence of the article. GiantSnowman 16:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we could quite easily establish an overview of these issues. But what I was saying was that the media tend to report these things as a "list of incidents". Adam4267 (talk) 16:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Well Freddie Steele took some years out of the game due to depression and came back to be a great player and manager. Tommy McLaren killed himself after he was released by Port Vale. Gary Roberts has had great difficulty controlling his alcohol and gambling addictions. I see the concerns are probably correct. All I can do is list examples, I cannot offer any explanations or anything worthy of putting into prose.--EchetusXe 16:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also Brian Hill. GiantSnowman 16:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Players' names being written using non-English lettering
I recently came across Guðjón Þórðarson, who also has three sons that are footballers; Bjarni Guðjónsson, Þórður Guðjónsson, Joey Guðjónsson. According to WP:USEENGLISH, well it's rather self-explanatory. While it does say that use of accents or other diacritics in article titles is neither encouraged nor discouraged these hardly fall under that category, they are using Nordic lettering as opposed to English letters which makes some of these words unreadable to the average English speaker. Should they be moved, or is there a reason for why they are at those titles. Thanks. Adam4267 (talk) 01:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We tend to allow European ones because there isn't a will to deal with β in German articles. Wiki-politics, in short. —WFC— 01:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * They should really be moved according to what the English-language sources call them. Eldumpo (talk) 09:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I say keep them as they are; show a bit of WP:COMMONSENSE, and strive for accuracy. GiantSnowman 09:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So long as, for instance, Bjarni Gudjonsson redirects to the right place, what's the problem? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:41, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Precisely. If someone's name is written in their native language in the Latin alphabet, we should write it the same way they do, rather than dumb down for the reader like the media do. Number   5  7  11:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Before anyone here gets too excited by this, please read the lengthy chat at Talk:Marek Zidlicky. This is a bone of contention throughout Wikipedia. Frankly, if a redirect works and points to the diacritic'ed version, great, no-one gets killed, and everyone gets to the article in one move. If someone has a diacritic'ed keyboard and wants to type in the factually accurate name, they don't get redirected and get the factually accurately named article. Again, no-one gets killed and everyone gets to the article in one move. Can't we focus on adding content rather than quibbling about this sort of thing which will never please all the people all the time? The Rambling Man (talk) 12:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Bologna F.C. 1909
Please check club foundation year. --KungFuDuck (talk) 18:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You are able to edit yourself you know... GiantSnowman 19:21, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Sócrates
Just a note, he's not doing too well in hospital, we should be keeping an eye on his article (which is rubbish right now by the way). The Rambling Man (talk) 19:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll "bring out the sweeping broom", if not today, tomorrow, cheers! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:23, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And now he is gone. RIP.--EchetusXe 10:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I gave some shape to the article but the stats are wrong, the playing career consists of six sentences and a paragraph on Garforth Town.--EchetusXe 11:52, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That'll be because he did, for a short time, coach Garforth Town, and played for them once. Kevin McE (talk) 12:38, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The article on his brother could also do with a tidy up; I'm busy today if anyone else fancies having a go...? GiantSnowman 12:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll kill two birds with one stone SNOWMAN, have a go at his brother's article too! RIP Sócrates (what a midfield with Toninho Cerezo and Falcão my dear god)!! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Raí's done, boy did it "hurt the eye"... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 19:28, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Vasco, good work! GiantSnowman 09:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Sergio Luteca Martinéz
Interesting, after i AFD'd several Valencia CF Mestalla players (one was 16 years old and merited a WP article already!), voilá! Another one has been created, and it's a "terrific" candidate for deletion:

1 - refs are bogus, as you can clearly (not) see; 2 - box is a LIE (has never played with Valencia CF's first team officially; 3 - PLAYING STYLE section is as poetic as can be; 4 - just checked this now: visited Spanish football site WWW.FUTBOLME.COM, entered "Luteca" (part of the subject's name) in the search engine, it yielded nothing (ladies and gentlemen, we may be facing a false article).

Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 04:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * More, also from FUTBOLME.COM: please, have a look at the Mestalla squad for this season (please see here http://www.futbolme.com/com/equipo.asp?idtorneo=5&id_equipo=794&modo=fichajes), be my guest and try to find Sergio Luteca "Wally" Martínez... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 04:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And there it was . . . gone! --  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 06:25, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks Kang! LOL! Only just now noticed this: the "storyline" had a great giveaway to see what an utter crap it was: it read he played against RSD Alcalá and Coruxo FC, Valencia B does not even play in that group, the team is in the group of (of course) Valencian and Catalan clubs in Segunda División B!! Pityful... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 13:58, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Quick pic question
Is this OK? I doubt... FkpCascais (talk) 22:24, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks OK to me.--EchetusXe 23:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you mean whether it's free to use? I've not found any non-wiki copies of the image on Google Images so I'd assume good faith.  Mattythewhite (talk) 23:28, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * No, no, apologies for not being explicit... I meant the image size, which makes the page look like cut in half. FkpCascais (talk) 09:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Far too big. I've taken it down to 280px, which is big enough to see but doesn't really stretch the infobox. Hope that's OK. Perhaps the editor who added it didn't know how to adjust the size? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:08, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, problem solved. I´ll conclude that the pic should not be bigger than the usual infobox size, so from now on I´ll do as you did in those cases. FkpCascais (talk) 10:13, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Queen's Park
"The club are currently the only amateur club in the Scottish League" - surely not true, given the fullu-professional nature (or lack of it) of SFL2/3? GiantSnowman 12:45, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait, ignore me, just realised what it means. Sorry. Not enough sleep. GiantSnowman 12:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Controversy of the Veigar Pall Gunnarson transfer
Hi there.

I need some guidance on what to do. We have a anon user (85.166.141.247 and 85.166.141.237 same user), that is somewhat obsessed on Norwegian news, and adds irrelevant info to a lot of articles here on Wikipedia. Since this is WP:Football, I'm only going to concentrate on the Veigar Páll Gunnarsson transfer, where two Norwegian clubs have swindled the French club Nancy.

This is something that in my opinion is suitable for an own article, due to having huge media coverage in Norway, but I feel it's wrong when adding one section about it on Transfer (association football), which is an article about transfers in general, not specific transfer, and another section about it on Football Association of Norway. I tried to undo his edits on the Transfer-article, since I feel it doesn't belong there, and I would undo his edit on Norwegian FA aswell, but I don't feel like starting a edit-war without having a second opinion on this. What do you guys think? Mentoz86 (talk) 08:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Given the complete lack of English-language sources right now, it certainly doesn't belong anywhere outside of the player's own article. If the IP continues to edit war over it the pages will end up getting protected. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Would we expect many English-language sources regarding an Icelandic player in France and Norway? No. Plus, per WP:NONENG, reliable foreign-language sources are fine. GiantSnowman 14:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If this event is claimed to be of more than local importance then there certainly should be English-language sources. These are hardly small clubs and it is hardly a small sum of money. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:51, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a middle ground between "local news" and it being splashed across the front page of English-language papers. GiantSnowman 15:15, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't actually understand what happened in the transfer. How does the clubs negotiating a fee for another player deprive Nancy of their transfer fee? Adam4267 (talk) 15:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There was a sell-on clause, so Nancy would be eligible to a percentage of the Stabæk-Vålerenga transfer fee. Stabæk artifically deflated their asking price for this player to Vålerenga, while increasing their asking price for a second player, so that the same amount was paid overall. GiantSnowman 15:46, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I get it now. Thanks. Adam4267 (talk) 15:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Yesterday the two officials of the clubs involved was arrested by Norwegian police, and even though they were released after questioning they are charged with breach of trust. American, German, French and Danish media have some coverage on this case, while the coverage in Norway is HUGE. My question now isn't if such an article should be created, but what the correct plural of such an article title should be. I have a draft for this article in my Userspace, but will improve it more before I "broadcast" it. Any help would be much appreciated. Mentoz86 (talk) 13:10, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


 * If there's a prevalent form in English-language sources, use it. If not, a neutral one drawn from the source like "2011 transfer of Veigar Pall Gunnarson" will do. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Caps: FIFA vs. FA
This player has 15 official FIFA sanctioned caps, and 23 in total if you include unofficial matches, as the Norwegian FA does. Who should we go with on this, and other, articles? GiantSnowman 14:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Surely, in cases like this there should be a note added to to the infobox to explain, with a detailed explanation in the body of the article. As the "unofficial" matches appear to be Olympic qualifiers/Olympics matches, maybe they should be shown separately in the infobox. Perhaps a full table of his international appearances would be helpful.  Cheers.  --  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 14:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * This page explains why.


 * In my opinion, we should go for the Norwegian FA numbers. Erik Thorstvedt for instance, got 97 caps in most sources and not the 89 that FIFA states is official. And is it our job to decide that John Arne Riise is the Norwegian with most caps when he has 103 caps, since Thorbjørn Svenssen got 2 unofficial matches, instead of the 105 caps every other sources states that he needs to be the Norwegian with most international appearences ? Mentoz86 (talk) 14:29, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * We are listing how many caps he got for Norway, not how many were recognised by FIFA. But it should be said somewhere how many were recognised by FIFA, I think. Adam4267 (talk) 14:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Olympic/qualifiers are NOT official senior-matches; they are under-23 team. I believe that they should be given a seperate row in the infobox. GiantSnowman 14:39, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Olympic matches being under-23 is a relatively recent introduction. I'd be inclined to agree they should be listed separately in the infobox. Though I'd agree with Mentoz86 that the article should give the Norwegian FA's figure as his number of Norway caps – after all, they awarded them – and explain the differences in the prose. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:12, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK then, how about this? Have 'Norway' (15) and 'Norway Olympic' (8) in the infobox, and explain the difference in the prose? GiantSnowman 15:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * When Norway FA states that he has 23 caps, the infobox should have 'Norway' 23 caps, and the text states "Berg has 23 appearences for Norway, even though FIFA only considers 15 of them as full caps" or something similar. Mentoz86 (talk) 15:48, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * See, I think the complete opposite of this. I reckon the infobox should say 15 caps, with text in the article saying something like "Berg has won 15 caps for Norway, also appearing in 8 unofficial international matches." Surely FIFA's number is more reliable since they are the ones who decide which games are full internationals. Big  Dom  15:54, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Big's suggestion is in my eyes a better suggestion then Giant's (Norway Olympic is just wrong, as 1/3 of the olympic matches are official senior matches, 1/3 are unofficial senior matches and 1/3 are U-23 matches), but either way you'll have to change all the other players on this list the same way. Another effect of this, would be that Norway national football_team and List of Norway international footballers should be removed from wikipedia since such lists aren't available with only "FIFA's official caps" and original research shouldn't be included in articles... Mentoz86 (talk) 16:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

This guy played in the 80s, remember. Adam4267 (talk) 16:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * @Mentoz - why is 'Norway Olympics' team wrong? What evidence do you have about your 1/3 splits?
 * @Adam - why does playing in the 80s affect him? GiantSnowman 17:12, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no evidence that it's one third each, but both NFF and FIFA counts Olympic matches before 1975 or 1960 (unsure on the exact date) as official caps. Norwegian Olympic matches between 1975 and 1988, where removed from FIFA's record in 1999 while NFF still counts them as official caps. And after 1988 the olympic matches are not counted as official caps by NFF, and at some point the U-23 team takes over the olympic matches. When I mean 'Norway Olympic' is wrong, it's because it way to imprecise or inaccurate.Mentoz86 (talk) 17:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's as accurate and concise as it can be - he represented Norway in Olympic qualifiers, did he not, and because the status of the team is unknown, it does the job nicely. GiantSnowman 17:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * My comment was aimed at Mentoz, meaning that the Olympics were not the same then as they are now. Adam4267 (talk) 17:59, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I fully agree with BigDom and GiantSnowman on this. We had before cases similar to this, and we allways agreed to use FIFA official caps. FkpCascais (talk) 08:52, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, it looks like we have a consensus to say that Jan Berg had 14 caps for the Norway national team (even though there is only one single source that says that he has 14 caps for Norway), but then we have to change all the other articles on this page aswell. And Jan Berg is a nobody (unless you are a Molde-fan) so noone cares about his caps, but I'm more curious on what will happen when you change Thorbjørn Svenssen caps from 104 to 102, Rune Bratseth from 60 to 55, Erik Thorstvedt from 97 to 89 and so on. Then you'll get reactions, and you'll get a lot of people wondering where you found your sources. Because we, the editors of wikipedia, might agree on this and that, but we cannot violate WP:OR. I looked around for sources on Thorbjørn Svenssen, and all states that he has played 104 matches (except one that say 108), noone states 102. This page is the only source we have for what we are discussing, and at the end of the day - is that a reliable source when all the other sources states something else? And as I've asked before, if we do it like this - what do we do with lists like Norway national football_team and List of Norway international footballers? Mentoz86 (talk) 20:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * But your source is clearly not reliable. GiantSnowman 13:31, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Sources in BLP articles
Even if this is maybe not the correct place to ask, I'd like to know how this is done in footballers' articles: According to WP:BLPPROD, any unsourced article about a living person created after 18 March 2010 may be deleted. But what exactly qualifies as source? Does it have to be an inline citation (as WP:BLPSOURCES suggests) or is a link in the section "External links" sufficient? I have often added an inline reference to BLP articles which only had external links and I'd like to know if this is necessary to avoid WP:BLPPROD. I've searched in the archives of Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons and I've come across this but it doesn't really answer my question. --Jaellee (talk) 14:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * External links by definition aren't meant to support article content. The thing is, many people don't know that and title the section "External links" when they really mean "References" or something similar. As far as BLPPROD goes, I think it's just a matter of checking out the link and determining whether or not it's actually being used as a source rather than for further reading or whatever, and then moving it to an inline cite if necessary to save any further confusion. Big  Dom  14:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * From my experience I must say that many articles were saved from deletion by having sources, or even one source, at External sources section. In several ocasions I noteced the unsourced tag being removed because of them, although WP favours definitely inline sourcing over simple listing as they usually stay in External sources section. I must say that initially, when I started editing, I usually limited myself to add the sources I used at "External sources" section. However, later I understood that sources should be present in the inline sections. So I basically use both nowadays, "References" section for inline sourcing, and "External links" section for infobox info. Basically, this way the article ends up being sourced at its best, as I honestly dislike seing sources used in infobox, I mean, only when really necessary... Resumingly, and to go straight to the question, I don´t recall any article being deleted as unsourced while having at least one external link at any section of the two types mentioned. FkpCascais (talk) 06:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * While Dom's version makes infinitely more sense, Fkp is right as far as saving an article from deletion is concerned. An extremely loose definition of "sourced" was required in order to garner consensus for the BLPPROD. A significant number of editors took it upon themselves to ensure that under no circumstances were articles deleted if anything vaguely relevant to the subject was present. That's how the situation stands, although now that the number of identified articles with zero sources is next to nothing, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a second phase of strengthening of BLP policy. —WFC— 08:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * From WP:BLPPROD: "To place a BLPPROD tag, the process requires that the article contain no sources in any form (as references, external links, etc.), which support any statements made about the person in the biography. Please note that this is a different criterion than is used for sources added after the placement of the tag.". my bolding Fairly unambiguous - if there is an external link that supports at least one statement about the subject of the article it may not be tagged BLPPROD .-- Club Oranje T 09:14, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Arthur Irawan
Thinking it was A LIE as the one i reported above, i clicked on the ref, turns out it's true, the person exists and has signed for RCD Espanyol B (please see here http://www.rcdespanyol.com/ingles/index.php?modulo=detalleNoticia&idnoticia=729&idseccion=7&idlinkchk=0&Amenu=detalleNoticia&idmenu=&idsubmenu=). The important matter of discussion is now:

1 - does he merit a WP article (18 years of age, no pro football played)? I think not; 2 - also, the box refers to him having played football with Preston North End, any truth in that (i mean did he play youth football there - cause SENIOR he certainly has not, as the box shows!)?

Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 19:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I believe he never played for Preston North End. Indonesian FA mention that his club is Preston when he was selected to preliminary squad for Indonesian U-23 team, but they later said that it was a mistake and he was on Preston only on trial without any contract, but they confirmed that he plays for Lytham Town F.C. in the West Lancashire Football League Division One (level 12 in English football). Definitely fail WP:NFOOTBALL. — MT (talk) 09:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Footballer or gore movie actor?
How about this pic? Really does help through your stressful day... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 13:14, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I pray for the day when clubs simply make their official player profile pictures CC-BY-SA and we stop having to get photos of players taken in stadium car parks, nightclubs, bus stops and birthday parties. Hell, for the amount of press the average player bio gets (as an Alexa 5 site, pretty much any notable player's top Google hit is his WP bio) you'd think they'd be keen to do so, but obviously not everyone is on the free content bandwagon yet. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Hahahaaaa... I mean, the pic... :) FkpCascais (talk) 18:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Schickeria
Is anyone else seeing edits like this that are pushing the concept of "Schickeria"? I left it in the first time, but when it was added back in I realized that all of the sources are self-published and as such may not be particularly notable. Any comments? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello!
 * I am writing to about my edits in the article about Bayern München that you reverted (2011-12-05).
 * There is no doubt that the Schickeria München exists and its political positions are no secrets. Officially, the group describes itself as anti-racist and against "Modern football". The anti-racist stance can also be seen on numerous flags and banners and the group has participated in public demonstrations against the commcercialization of football. As a third party opinion, I would like to bring up Gabriel Kuhn, writer on the subject of football and politics. I met him during the  Göteborg Book Fair and I intended to discuss the supporters of St Pauli with him, but instead he pointed at the Schickeria München as an example of the growing number of "progressive" ultra groups in Germany. He also did this in the interview that I posted as source. What concerns the "notability" of Schickeria München, I can not really say. ´What is notability in this sense? I do not know the exact answer to the question, but I think that the actions against Manuel Neuer (whether regarded as an act of sheer stupidity or as an legitimate protest against the clubs politics) and the fuss it created, the group does not pass entierly unnoted.
 * Best regards, Erik EriFr (talk) 21:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the protests against Manuel Neuer were well covered in the press, but I don't recall any mention of this Schickeria group. If RSs can be found on the group itself it can stay, if they can't then it should be removed. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 23:06, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Best regards, Erik EriFr (talk) 21:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the protests against Manuel Neuer were well covered in the press, but I don't recall any mention of this Schickeria group. If RSs can be found on the group itself it can stay, if they can't then it should be removed. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 23:06, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the protests against Manuel Neuer were well covered in the press, but I don't recall any mention of this Schickeria group. If RSs can be found on the group itself it can stay, if they can't then it should be removed. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 23:06, 5 December 2011 (UTC)


 * http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/fc-bayern-streit-um-manuel-neuer-splittergruppe-verletzt-den-artenschutz-1.1117564
 * http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,774417,00.html


 * They seem to be one the groups behind the protests, at least, they the are blamed for this (see the discussions at the Bayern forum).


 * /Erik — Preceding unsigned comment added by EriFr (talk • contribs) 07:17, 9 December 2011 (UTC)