Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 18

Bangladesh Premier League
Is Bangladesh Premier League (football) can be regarded as professional league? Ibrahim Husain Meraj (talk) 15:26, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Not without sources confirming that it is. Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * News articles, , , , Coverage in football sites , , confirms its a professional league. Ibrahim Husain Meraj (talk) 15:45, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Also the distinction made for WP:FPL, and therefore notability via WP:NFOOTY is that a league is fully professional, which requires a higher level of sourcing than simply articles which mention the word professional. this is the issue that came up in the AfDs last time. there are articles out there that indicate foreign players in the league do pretty well, but it lacks reliable comment about the league as a whole and how domestic players fare. If you can find any other sources though, please present them. None of those above indicate that the league is fully professional. The league may well pay all its players, but this does not mean it is their sole source of income. Fenix down (talk) 15:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Sources : Run By Bangladesh Football Federation with codified rules involving transaction, doping etc. "The Bangladesh Football Federation (Bengali: বাংলাদেশ ফুটবল ফেডারেশন) is the governing body of football in Bangladesh, controlling the Bangladesh national football team. It was founded in 1972, and has been a member of FIFA and the Asian Football Confederation since 1974." Source: History BFF BANGLADESH FOOTBALL FEDERATION Bangladesh Premier League (football) matches take place in National Stadiums, have foreign coaches. In the news:"Bangladesh Football Federation (BFF), in its bid to increase the number of matches in the professional football league, has proposed a third phase for the Bangladesh Premier League in the upcoming season." and "The recommendations of the BFF’s Emergency Committee will be passed on to the Professional League Committee and if it is approved there, it will be sent to the executive committee to make it a rule." Members of the national team participate in the League including the captain of the National Team. 70000$ sponsorship deal. Is placed in the Bangladesh National league category by FIFA. Clubs have played in the International Club Matches such as the AFC Cup.source Described in the news as "professional football league" and  "country's top league" with underperforming clubs facing demotions. Source Has 11 teams and about 25000$ to each club as as appearance money.SourceVinegarymass911 (talk) 23:22, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - Not really sure what is attempting to be achieved here, none of the sources presented above add any weight to the notion of a "fully" professional league:
 * Source 1 - Can't see anything in the regulations regaridng full professionalism,nothing in section four of the regulations makes any comment about a minimum salary for example.
 * Source 2 - Makes no mention of professioanlism at all, therefore not relevant to this discussion.
 * Source 3 - This is jusy the national associations FIFA page. Makes no mention of professionalism at all, therefore not relevant to this discussion.
 * Source 4 - The presence of foreign coaches does not indicate full professionalism and there is no reason why it should. Makes no mention of professionalism at all, therefore not relevant to this discussion.
 * Source 5 - Mentions professionalism, and no one here on in earlier conversations is doubting there is at least a degree of professionalism, but nothing to support fullprofessionalism. Comments such as After plenty of discussion, the BFF stuck to its previous plans of keeping the BPL a ten team affair – rejecting discussion over the last few days to increase the number to 14. The decision was based largely on the assessment that 14 teams would not be able to maintain the basic standard, due to a scarcity of quality players suggest the league is not fully pro as a league which was would be more likely to attract players of sufficient quality.
 * Sourcre 6 - A routine match report. Makes no mention of professionalism at all, therefore not relevant to this discussion.
 * Source 7 - Unclear how a $70000 sponsorship deal is meant to confirm full professionalism for the league. Almost every countries' top league will have some level of sponsorship and some cash prize available which makes them professional to a degree. This does not mean they are fully professional.
 * Source 8 - This is just the league's page on FIFA's website. Makes no mention of professionalism at all, therefore not relevant to this discussion. All leagues, regardless of their level of professionalism have these pages.
 * Source 9 - Makes no mention of professionalism at all, therefore not relevant to this discussion. There is no "full professionalism" requirement of the AFC Cup.
 * Source 10 - Makes no mention of professioanlism at all, therefore not relevant to this discussion. Promotion and relegation exists at all levels of football, amateur or professional.
 * Source 11 - Mentions payment of sponsorship money to clubs, but makes no mention of professionalism at all, therefore not relevant to this discussion. Unclear how such a small payment could support the whole of a playing squad (excluding non-playing staff). Fenix down (talk) 08:32, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Liechtenstein
If NZ is considered Pro because of the A-League then surely Liechtenstein should be as well because of FC Vaduz playing in the top level of the Swiss league?--122.60.106.95 (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * New Zealand is not considered fully pro, only those clubs from New Zealand who play in the A-League. I would suggest it was not worth adding Liechtenstein, as the top league in Switzerland is the only level considered fully pro. given that there is relegation from that league when there is not from the A-League, its a much less permanent arrangement than for New Zealand clubs. Fenix down (talk) 08:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Clarification on Myanmar National League
The Myanmar National League is listed as a professional league on Fully Professional League list, yet verifications if players actually played in the league are almost non existent. There have been a number of AFD debates around articles whose subjects may or may not have played a game (see here, here and here). Clarification is needed to save time and prevent more needless AFD debates in the future. I am tagging &  as they have shown an interest in the above AFD debates. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 15:14, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a bit of a difficuolt one, I'm happy that the sources indicate that the league is essentially fully pro, but the language and script barriers make it very difficult to cite reliable sources for non-internationals with domestic appearances. My view is that those who can be shown to have played senior international football in continental competition against another club from a FPL are fine for NFOOTY (especially as it is highly unlikely they would not also have played domestically for their club). For others though, although the league is fully pro, we really need to see evidence of players playing in it for NFOOTY. There are lots of players all over the world who are members of squads in FPLs who will never actually play. That said though, I think each player needs to be judged on his own merits. Fenix down (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I think what we need is someone with Burmese background who can point us to a decent source (in any language) with match reports. It's the lack of match reports in any language which is the issue. Surely there must be some domestic reporting on these games somewhere. Nfitz (talk) 20:18, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

USA NWSL is most likely semi-pro
This article on a 26-year old first-team senior player retiring due to low pay suggests pretty strongly that the league is semi-professional. It claims that most players work part-time jobs during the season to supplement their salaries. The article even characterizes the players as "semi-professional". Should we re-consider placing the NWSL in the fully-pro league category? Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 15:05, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the article is fairly conclusive that it's not fully-professional. Number   5  7  15:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. GiantSnowman 17:31, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The Christian Science Monitor is a reliable source, but here is another (The Oregonian) saying essentially the same thing about several Portland Thorns players. It really looks like a majority of the players are part-time. Jogurney (talk) 17:53, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The next question is: Has the league always been like this, or was it fully-pro at the start and has dropped back? Number   5  7  18:20, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * These articles primarily cover the 2014 season, but there is an implication that the same situation existed in 2013 (when the league was formed). I highly doubt it has changed significantly from 2013 to present. Jogurney (talk) 19:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to agree that these issues probably existed before as well. Of the four sources currently listed for the league, this one is the only one to give concrete details the nature of professionalism in the league. The others simply say that the league is fully pro, but don't provide details. According that source, clubs have an annual salary budget of $200,000. If we take the current champions, for example, this means that the average player in the 19-person squad would earn about $10,500 yearly. In comparison, working 40 hours a week at minimum wage ($7,25/hr in the United States) comes to about $15,000 per year. To me this suggests that since the first season, at least some of the players were not making a living wage. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Would we be showing WP:BIAS by applying the exact same criteria to women's soccer as we do to men's soccer? While "fully professional league" is the criteria which has been set for WP:NFOOTBALL, if you look at other sports (such as WP:NGRIDIRON it only says professional league - including leagues such as Canadian Football League which would not meet the strict fully-professional criteria here. Nfitz (talk) 22:21, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * NFOOTBALL is designed to give articles a pass on immediately satisfying GNG because it is expected that any article which satisfies NFOOTBALL could become GNG-compliant with the appropriate amount of work from dedicated editors. That expectation is typically met for players who have competed in fully-pro leagues, but much less commonly for players who have only competed in semi-pro leagues. I don't think the coverage in reliable sources on the average player who hasn't competed at a higher level than NWSL suggests these articles could become GNG-compliant. The articles that are likely to be GNG-compliance are the ones covering players who meet NFOOTBALL in other ways (i.e., full international or have played in other fully-pro leagues). Jogurney (talk) 21:10, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I-League 2nd Division
I was reading this today and it said that clubs that are allowed in the I-League 2nd Division must pass the AFC Licensing Criteria. Usually passing the licensing criteria handed out by the Asian Football Confederation means you are a fully-professional club... would that make the I-League 2nd Division fully-pro from 2015 onwards? Here is the AFC Licensing Criteria: 1. Cheers. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:55, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Where's Ecuador?
I was just looking through the list and noticed that Ecuador's leagues do not feature on the list? Why is this? Cam Melling (talk) 12:45, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That will be because no one has presented any sources indicating fully professional status or because any sources presented were insufficient to gain consensus on fully professional status. Do you have sources that indicate the league is fully professional? If so, please link to them here to start a discussion. Thanks. Fenix down (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2015 (UTC)