Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 22

Bulgarian Second League
I recently added Bulgarian Second League to the list but my commit was reverted for not discussing it here first. Please accept my apologies; I didn't know this was the established practice. The source I have added was a link to "Regulations for football leagues and tournaments in the BFU system for 2016/2017 season" - an official legal document issued by the Bulgarian Football Union. What other evidence is necessary to prove that this league (formerly known as B PFG) is fully professional? Yavorescu (talk) 17:49, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The issue is with what is meant by the term "professional status" in your source – in some cases it refers only to the fact that the players get paid, regardless of how much (so the playes in question could be semi-professional). I'd be interested to know how these clubs can afford to pay players full-time wages (if they do) when more than half have fewer than 500 spectators at their games. Number   5  7  18:05, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The only difference between A PFG and B PFG is the level in the football pyramid. The players certainly get paid (it is rumoured typical wages in this division are 800-1500 BGN per month).  Citing another document by BFU, Regulations for the footballers' statute: "A professional footballer is a physical person who has a contract in writing with a football club and for whom exercising the football game is a main occupation".  All clubs in this league are required to employ professional footballers and obtain profesional licenses according to BFU's procedures on annual basis. The funding of these clubs (and all Bulgarian clubs for that matter) is a long topic but one thing is certain: it doesn't come from attendance and it has been that way since time immemoriam. Yavorescu (talk) 18:35, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Rumours of wages are not the basis of inclusion on this list. Can you indicate exactly where in the document your above quote can be found?Eldumpo (talk) 18:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Of course they are not. I was just pointing out that due to the low standard of living in Bulgaria the wages are much lower than most second tier European leagues.  The quote I provided is from page 2, Article 2 (2).  The document which describes in detail the requirements which a professional football club (in First or Second league) must meet are listed in Regulations for the statute of football clubs-members of BFU, in particular sports criteria (p.13), financial criteria (p.14), infrastructure criteria (p.15), administration and HR (p.17), legal criteria (p.18). Yavorescu (talk) 19:22, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

I found two more sources supporting my opinion that Bulgarian Second League is fully professional. Bulgarian football: Bankrupt CSKA Sofia demoted to third division describes how CSKA was demoted to Third League and could not participate in the Second division precisely because of its professional status. BFU investigate whether to make B Group amateur is about BFU's concern that too many clubs from B group were either going bankrupt or abandoning the league during the course of the season for financial/organizational problems and its intention to change the status of the league from professional to amateur. Paragraph 5 is interesting: "The cleanest option for BFU is to change the status of the division to semi-professional so that each club can decide whether to employ professionals or amateurs. UEFA allows this before the beginning of the season, but it's only valid for the top division in the relevant country provided that these are the maximum opportunities of the clubs." I couldn't find this UEFA requirement on their website, but if it is correct it means that this division cannot be semi-professional. Yavorescu (talk) 16:08, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * This is good enough for me. Number   5  7  22:02, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Same here. If he can answer Eldumpo's questions then I say add the league. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:12, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sure the 1st and 5th paras confirm fully pro status of the league, or just that all clubs are professional. Are wages enough for full time? Also, is the 4th para not referring to some kind of problems with payments, don't know what the 'not shipping' translation is meant to mean? Sorry, above comments are only based on Google Translate (caveat I know). Eldumpo (talk) 18:34, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Clubs participating in this league are obliged to be professional and that is a problem for some of them. Chernomorets Balchik gained promotion to Second League last season but refused to participate for financial reasons (source).  In that article, the club representative says they need a budget of 700-800K BGN for Second League.  Some Second League clubs have 1-1.5 million BGN budget.  To your second question - yes, the wages are enough for full time (800 BGN is considered a good salary, and there are usually bonuses for away wins, etc.).  If we take a typical squad size of 25 players with average wages 1000 BGN/month it makes 300K annual wages.  Wages must be max 40% of the budget so this corresponds with the figure that Balchik are chasing, more or less.  Here is the 4th paragraph translated: "According to the information of the agency the biggest problem of the clubs in B group are not the travelling expenses, but the professional licensing, the payment of fees and for referee's observer, employment contracts and payment of social security/medicare." Yavorescu (talk) 21:34, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your further reply but where is the source for 800BGN wages, and we should be looking at what the lower paid are getting, not the average or higher paid. Eldumpo (talk) 22:49, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Clubs don't disclose their players' wages so there is no reliable source. In 2008, BFU signed a memorandum with the Professional Football League and the Association of professional footballers; they agreed on minimum wages of 700 BGN/month for A PFG and 450 BGN/month for B PFG (source). Officially, for 2016 the minimum salary of a professional footballer is 568 BGN per month (list); see line 80 - "Activity of sport clubs (only for professional sportsman in a football club)" and remark No.5 below: "Line 80 is applicable only for professional footballers and the minimum social security income for the professional footballers in A and B group is determined according to qualification group 3 - technicians and applied specialists." FYI, the minimal salary in Bulgaria is 420 BGN, the minimal pension is 161 BGN. Yavorescu (talk) 06:43, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I found the Collective employment contract - this document from 2014 can be considered official as it is sent to the Executive Agency "General Labour Inspectorate" for registration. Article 17 (2) says that the minimum monthly salary for a professional footballer from B group is 500 BGN.  Yavorescu (talk) 06:59, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Whilst the language/alphabet barrier is not helping me in reviewing the various links, it does seem that the league is 'fully-pro' and that is what is mentioned in our guideline. Personally, I'm not convinced, based on the attendances of the league, that players in it are really notable, and don't think Wikipedia would benefit from a series of stub articles for players who had appeared a few times in the Bulgarian second level with teams such as PFC Bansko, FC Balkan Botevgrad and FC Pirin Gotse Delchev. Eldumpo (talk) 09:30, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time and effort to review all those links. FWIW, if I have to be honest and unbiased, I tend to agree with your conclusion that the players are probably not notable enough.  However, something doesn't feel right, you really should have uniform criteria for notability.  Perhaps fully-pro status combined with attendances or something else.  I have my doubts that Belarusian First League, Albanian First Division or Greek League 2 are any different when it comes to average attendance or general notability of their players. Nevertheless, they are listed which doesn't seem fair. Yavorescu (talk) 11:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Wait, what? Gamma Ethniki, in Greek Γ΄ Εθνική Ερασιτεχνική Κατηγορία, C National Amateur Division, is included in the list and even says it's amateur in its name? What did we missed there? FkpCascais (talk) 11:45, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Personally I would be strongly in favour of moving to attendance-based criteria, as it's far easier to source and is probably more strongly correlated with notability than professional status (although the two are strongly linked in most cases).

Moldova
The Moldova reference does not state the exact section where the fully pro status of the league is confirmed by the source. In the absence of evidence I would suggest this is a candidate for removal from the list. If it was added today it would not be allowed to remain due to the lack of a specific cite. Eldumpo (talk) 18:50, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It may not be detailed in the list, but the source is explained and translated at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 9. Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:22, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Malaysia Fully Professional Football
Malaysia has two fully professional leagues, the Malaysia Super League (12 teams) ans the Malaysia Premier League (12 teams). I do not read or speak malay language so finding articles written in english is limited that makes clear cut statements. However, I am personally aware of the set up as I have family from this country, and I am a football coach with knowledge in this region. Both leagues are run by the FMLLP (see below) including the FA cup and Malaysia Cup.

http://www.fam.org.my/news/kevin-ramalingam-appointed-ceo-fmllp

The Football Association of Malaysia (FAM) announced the appointment of Kevin Ramalingam as the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Football Malaysia Limited Liability Partnership (FMLLP). The three-year contract started effective on 17 April.

The decision was reached by the FAM Executive Committee after two stages of screening and interviewing potential candidates.

The 40-year old has been involved in football since 2001 and was previously the CEO of The Red Warriors Sdn. Bhd. overseeing the development and management of commercial areas of Kelantan Football Association.

“I would like to thank the FAM and also the committee for entrusting me with this post. It is a big responsibility and there are certainly a lot of challenges ahead. It is my mission that the league is managed in a professional, advanced and efficient manner from technical and commercial aspect.

'''I’ll also ensure that Malaysian Super League (MSL) and Malaysian Premier League (MPL) teams will have additional income in the future. Success of the new league system will take time, but everything needs to start from somewhere. We are currently at the same stage where English Premier League (EPL) was in the early 90s’. I hope to make our league at least half successful as the EPL,” he said.''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slowfootball (talk • contribs) 12:19, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think the source you have provided indicates full professionalism. The only reference to professionalism is concerned with the manner in which the league is hoped to be run in the future. You don't however need to provide English language sources. Any language is acceptable if you can provide Malay sources and indicate where specifically the notion of "full professionalism" is dealt with that may be perfectly acceptable. Fenix down (talk) 15:50, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Lithuania
OK, as I saw in history section it's required to create a discussion section before editing the list, so... Current evaluation of A Lyga was made all the way back in 2010 (2009-10 was rough period for Lithuanian football when many famous clubs had bankrupted and were replaced by I Lyga clubs (including mentioned FK Mažeikiai) which were added to the highest league not taking into account the sport principle(by special permission of Lithuanian Football Federation) and as I see wasn't checked from that time. Current sources quite clearly proves that league is professional: - The about page of governing organization of the league (Lithuanian football clubs organization "A Lyga"), which members are all clubs of the league, main aim is "skatinti, vystyti, populiarinti futbolą bei kelti profesionalaus futbolo lygį Lietuvje" (Translation:boost, develop, popularize football and increase professional football level in Lithuania). Another source would be an article from one of three main football specified Lithuanian websites -. This article is answering why Lithuanian footballers leaves A lyga for non-professional clubs in Norway: "finansinis atlygis už darbą galimai bus net didesnis nei už profesionalų futbolą A lygoje" (Translation: pay for work might be even bigger than for professional football in A Lyga). I hope these sources shows enough to re-establish A Lyga as a professional football league. - Respublik (talk) 09:50, 10 August 2016 (EEST) (P.S. Sorry for my English grammar)
 * Hi Respublik, the key word with regards to this guideline is that clubs must participate in a "fully" professional league, i.e. one where all clubs pay their first team players sufficient that they can all be considered full time professionals. The quotes you cite above certainly indicate there is a degree of professionalism in Lithuania, but they also indicate that the league has yet to reach a fully professional state. Fenix down (talk) 08:49, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What I want to clarify is that clubs organization "A Lyga" only function is to control A Lyga and all clubs of A Lyga are(and they're only) members of this organization. If they declare they purpose to increase professional football level in Lithuania, than it's clear indication that all current league clubs and the league have professional status, cause otherwise they should be reaching this level. Respublik (talk) 17:30, 10 August 2016 (EEST)
 * I would argue it actually states the opposite, that the league does not have a universal level of professionalism, merely semi-professional or with a few clubs only that are fully professional and that they have the stated aim of increasing this to achieve a status which could be deemed to be fully professional in the future. Fenix down (talk) 14:46, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Interview with LFKA president Deividas Šemberas . "Tikriausiai žmonės ieško geresnių sąlygų, tiek gyvenimo, tiek ir futbolo. Ir jei jie gauna pasiūlymus išvykti ir uždirbti daugiau pinigų, natūralu, kad nusprendžia palikti Lietuvą. Gal tai nebus visiškai profesionalus futbolas, gal jie dar papildomai darbuosis, bet tai yra pačių futbolininkų reikalas. Manau, visi žino, kad Lietuvos futbole nėra didelių pinigų. Tas pats Utenos „Utenis“ negali pasiūlyti žaidėjams prabangių sutarčių, bet jie visada sumoka tai, ką pažadėjo, dirba profesionaliai ir suteikia jauniems futbolininkams galimybę tobulėti." (Translation:Maybe people are looking for better conditions, both living and playing football. And if they're receiving offers to leave and earn more money it's natural that they decide to leave Lithuania. Maybe it won't be fully professional football, maybe they're going to have extra work, but it's personal decision of these footballers. I think that everyone knows that in Lithuanian football there isn't much money. For example FK Utenis Utena can't offer luxurious contracts for its players, but they always pay what they agreed on, works professionally and gives chances for young footballers to improve.) - Respublik (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2016 (EEST)
 * I'm confused with what you are trying to say, all you seem to be presenting are quotes that support at best a semi-professional status. Fenix down (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It's about leaving Lithuania for more money in foreign leagues but sacrificing playing professional football("Gal tai nebus visiškai profesionalus futbolas"). Which (I hope finally) clearly shows that it's fully professional league(because otherwise they shouldn't be sacrificing it...). It also shows that even outsiders(Utenis is currently 7th from 8 clubs) are professional organizations.
 * And I hope this shows finally that in A Lyga players earn adequate salaries and are professionals, not amateurs - . Older interviu before start of the season: "Lietuvoje futbolininkai uždirba nedaug. Nuo 500 eurų, iki 5 tūkst. eurų, bet tiek gauna geriausi žaidėjai, žvaigždės" (Translation: In Lithuania players doesn't earn much - from 500 to 5000 EUR (per month), but this is salary which is only received by best players, stars." To add a little bit of context average monthly salary in Lithuania is about 550 EUR per month (data from department of statistic), so I hope it proves that in A Lyga where worst players earn as much as statistical Lithuanian, they're receiving respectable salary and are considered professionals. Respublik (talk) 19:30, 10 August 2016 (EEST)
 * there's no debate about there being a degree of professionalism, but I am not seeing evidence of full professionalism across the league. I would challenge your assumptions on wages in Lithuania too, as this suggests that the average gross salary is actually nearer 1000 Euros. It's referenced but not precise enough for me to identify the specific text backing up the claim. Your 550, seems much closer to the net salary and I am sure the quote you present is talking about gross salary. Furthermore, the general tone of the comments you have produced indicates there is not much money in domestic competition, which doesn't lend credence to the idea that the league is genuinely fully professional. you might wish to post a notice at WT:FOOTY if you want to attract more editors to this discussion. Fenix down (talk) 11:32, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm sorry, I haven't looked closely to the article I took data from, just yesterday evening another article came out, which shows that currently average gross salary is nearly 750 EUR, but it's still isn't far away from the suggested values. And I'm not arguing that in Lithuanian football salaries and clubs budgets aren't big compared to western Europe, but I'm not sure that this is an argument to determine league or clubs status. Also after all data I looked through, I can't find arguments to suggest that some of 8 A Lyga clubs isn't professional to call league semi-pro like it was done before. And maybe you could help with the last part, I'm still a little bit new to these procedures. Respublik (talk) 18:30, 11 August 2016 (EEST)
 * That's OK, I think there is always going to be a wide-ish range of estimates, it would still suggest though that a significant proportion of players in the country are paid somewhere between 25 and 50% less than the average gross salary for the country. Whilst this can also mean that all of the clubs in the top league are professional in the sense that they pay their players more than just expenses, it would be stretching it to say that the evidence presented suggests that essentially all first team players in the Lithuanian top division earn their sole income from football.
 * As an addition, "fully professional" as a term, although not easy to define in binary terms, has gained consensus as a useful guideline to notability since, as a general rule of thumb, it can be said that if all the clubs in a given league can afford to pay their players enough that they need no other income from elsewhere then it can also be considered that the league is of sufficient standing that it can attract the money either through tickets, TV or sponsorship to fund this and therefore is of sufficient popularity in a given area for the players in that league to essentially be considered inherently notable. Fenix down (talk) 15:55, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Well I think there shouldn't be more discussions after this article. Some quotes: "Ką rinktis lietuviams – saugoti profesionalų statusą ar tapti mėgėjų klubais kaip Europos čempionato dalyvių Islandijos ir Šiaurės Airijos lygose?" (What to chose for Lithuanians - maintain professional status or become amateurs like Euro 2016 participants Iceland and North Ireland leagues clubs?), "P. Malžinskas netiki, kad Lietuvoje dar ilgai išsilaikys profesionalų futbolo lyga" (P. Malžinskas doesn't believe Lithuanian professional football league is going to persist for much longer), "Ar ilgai turėsime jėgų išlaikyti visą profesionalų lygą? O gal vertėtų pasekti estų pavyzdžiu, kur keli klubai yra profesionalų, o silpnesnioji aukščiausiojo diviziono komandų dalis – pusiau mėgėjų?" (Do we have enough power to maintain fully professional league? Maybe we should follow Estonian path when few clubs are professional and others highest league clubs are semi-professional?) Respublik (talk) 09:24, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Well so what term is appropriate then? Almost for a month from the last post there weren't any objections, suggestions, discussions or anything, and from what I remember from the wikipedian guidelines 2 weeks without objections is already relevant timeline to make the edition. So please then comment and help us reach a consensus if this still wasn't enough. Respublik (talk) 22:42, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * So firstly, posting something and then receiving no responses, does not equal consensus. I don't see you posting anything at WT:FOOTY or anywhere else to try to get people to participate. Secondly, you're not dealing with the major issue here, which is that the very sources you presented indicate the average wage for a footballer is well below the average wage earned in Lithuania as noted above. This is a very strong indicator that the league is not fully professional to the standard required by WP:FPL. This is bolstered by sourced figures for the league's attendence here. With no team averaging anywhere near even 1000 supporters per game, the obvious challenge is where on earth is the money coming from to pay players a sufficient salary? As such, I think it is clear that references to full professionalism in the source you present are not to "full professionalism as required by WP:FPL, but to any level of professionalism, with the source actually meaning that a number of clubs will have to revert to a situation where they don't pay their players at all. Fenix down (talk) 09:06, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all I'm sorry that I wasn't able to reply sooner, this discusion somehow became really tiring for me. Now about these uncertainties - first of all I'm not sure what you're comparing, cause there no data about average salary in A Lyga (mentioned above are only minimum and maximum limits, that are currently payed). Second (and far more important) professional player status in Lithuania is strictly set by Lithuanian Football Federation as it is required by UEFA: A Player who has a Contract with a Club and is paid for the sporting activity at the Club is deemed a Professional, i.e. a Player holding the status of a professional football Player, provided that the remuneration is higher than the expenses he actually incurs for the same purpose. The remuneration shall be deemed to exceed a Player’s actually incurred expenses related to his sporting activity at the Club when it is no less than the minimum monthly wage payable in the Republic of Lithuania. The remuneration shall be deemed to exceed a Minor Aged Player’s actually incurred expenses related to his sporting activity at the Club when it is no less than half of the minimum monthly wage payable in the Republic of Lithuania (LFF regulations on status and transfer of players ). Current minimum wage in Lithuanian is €380 per month, and minimum wage in A lyga(once again as mentioned above) significantly excedes this number.
 * Also do we need separate discussion about inclusion of I Lyga into not fully professional list? As mentioned in a source above it is league with a degree of professionalism ("Lietuvos pirmojoje lygoje dauguma klubų yra neprofesionalų ar iš dalies profesionalų." (In the Lithuanian I League most clubs are only amateurs or semi-professionals) ) Respublik (talk) 14:45, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The quote above discusses minimum remuneration, but what it does not do (and would not do since the source it comes from is about the general registration of players in Lithuania, not any specific competition) is provide any obligation for a club to actually pay anyone any amount, merely if they do that there is a minimum amount. Paragraphs 3.1 and 7.1 clearly note that players may be registered as either professionals or amateurs in Lithuania. In Annex 3, I see nothing that states that all clubs in any competition must ensure all their players meet the criteria established to be considered professional in the country. As such, this sources does not confirm that there are no amateur players in A Lyga. On the I Lyga, point, I don't think there is a need to have a separate discussion, I am happy for you to add it to the list of non-fully pro leagues linking to the source you noted. Fenix down (talk) 16:28, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * But in above mentioned interview league president Deividas Šemberas clearly states that at least current salaries in A lyga starts from 500 euro per month, which is clear indication that at least for now no ameaturs players play there. And if you would look into the current  source, the reason why league is assigned to current category is because back in 2010 there were few players, which weren't professionals. Respublik (talk) 18:03, 12 December 2016 (UTC)