Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 51

Albanian second tier
To me it sounds a bit dubious that Albania can support two tiers of fully professional football. The second tier is listed at FPL because of one mention in a rulebook: "A player can be registered to a team participating in the Albanian Superliga or Albanian First Division only as a professional player". However, I think the use of the standalone word professional, which can mean several things, is too vague to prove full professionalism. I think it's so strange that Albania is listed with two fully professional tiers whereas Montenegro, Macedonia and Latvia have none - that I think it the claim should be substantiated further. How is the economy really on the Albanian second tier? Geschichte (talk) 21:28, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that a source saying that a league is "professional" isn't enough. Nehme1499 21:32, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

In my eyes, economy is tied to club income, which has different sources; sponsors, media revenue and match attendance. Weltfussball has match attendance from the last pre-covid season, of which I've sampled a few from different stadiums: 800, 700, 800, 500, 300, 1200, 700. Seems pretty low, though much higher than e.g. the Baltic countries, it's on par with the biggest teams in the Faroe Islands. It can also be reiterated that all the teams need to have a professional economy in order for a league to be fully professional. Geschichte (talk) 09:11, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Should we remove it from the list then? Geschichte (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Possibly. We need a better source, in any case. I'm pinging a few regular Albanian contributors to see if they can prove that this league is fully pro, ,  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I am pretty certain that the top divisions of countries like Montenegro and Latvia are fully professional. On the other hand i have no clue how that FPL list works, i see a lot of pro leagues missing there. What would you consider as a proper source? MercedesBenz240 (talk) 15:44, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * we're looking for something that confirms that every player in that league is full-time and that they don't need to have a 2nd job just to have a decent living. This is why Geschichte is looking at the figures above and not sure if this league is truly professional. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 16:11, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, i will try to find something. MercedesBenz240 (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * did you manage to find anything? Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 20:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No, sorry. I personally know for a fact that players in this division are full time professionals, but i couldn't find anything that specifically proves it on the internet. MercedesBenz240 (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No worries, thanks for taking a look. and  do you have any further thoughts? On one hand, we should always AGF where we can but, on the other hand, it seems difficult to keep a league on the list without a valid source.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * My biggest thought is how the league would be fully professional. What supports it economically? Since it may not be the attendance, sponsors and owners are other options, and it shouldn't be impossible to find sources about that. On another note, Mercedes Benz iterated that "players in this division" are pro, but there's a difference between that and the entirety of the player base being pro. Geschichte (talk) 21:13, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yep, I think that's it. No doubt there are a large number of professional players there but it seems doubtful from the information above that all players are full-time and making a good living from football. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 21:59, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * In addition, I also have my doubts about whether regular players in the Albanian second tier actually pass GNG. Take Artion Alillari and Mateo Allkja. Would any reasonable interpretation of GNG give them a pass? Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 23:19, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

North Korea
This will be a difficult subject to find sources for, but I was reading an article from a South Korean website, interviewing a defector(?) to South Korea in 2002, and he says that North Korean footballers do not need to work, and are paid more than the average worker - source. This source also says that "different salaries are paid to all selected players according to the player rating criteria".

Obviously the average wage in North Korea is very low, but isn't the parameter for "fully professional" just that all senior players are paid, and that they are making above the national average? I'm also aware of the two sources on the main project page claiming the league to be amateur, but this is clearly contradictory, and I don't see why South Korean sources would lie about the league being professional. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 19:18, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Super League Greece 2
I whole-heartedly believe that the Super League Greece 2 ceased to be fully professional in 2021. The league was expanded from 12 to 32 teams. While the economy might very well have been good enough to support 12 pro teams in 2020-21, this can surely no longer be the case. Up to 10-15 pro teams, ok, but I'd say that a claim of 32 pro teams is in dire need of verification. The 2021-22 edition includes two teams with a stadium capacity of 600 and 700. I'm having difficulty finding the actual match attendances. Geschichte (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Fully agree. GiantSnowman 15:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Have to also agree on that assessment, Greece has been having a lot of trouble financially so it's easy to see problems within the Greek leagues. However you didn't provide any sources to backup your post here. Govvy (talk) 10:59, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked for any, since I only employ common sense here and don't read Greek, I asked a Greek editor to attend to this discussion though. We probably don't have a source to back up that the league is professional in 2021 either... Geschichte (talk) 12:45, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Professionalism of African leagues
Having had a look through the list of non-pro leagues, a lot of the sources provided for African leagues are weak/outdated; I feel there are multiple African leagues that could possibly pass the FPL criteria and there is a need for stronger sourcing to categorically distinguish these leagues into those that pass or fail the guideline.

This Goal.com article quotes average mnothly salaries for multiple non-FPL African leagues: Angola's Girabola pays $25,000, the Linafoot in DR Congo averages $20,000, Sudan averages $15,000 and the domestic leagues in Zambia, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Tanzania and Botswana all have average salaries between $3,000 and $10,000, which suggests players receive a decent living wage in those leagues. The standard of sourcing for these leagues being non-fully pro varies greatly:
 * Girabola (Angola) - a link to an archived article is seemingly provided, but the page doesn't exist, so there is no source.
 * Linafoot (DR Congo) - BBC Afrique article provided states that working conditions for players are poor, but this seems too tangentical to the league's professionalism to be able to categorically state that the league is not professional
 * Sudan Premier League - the first source is a Goal.com article from 2009 that writes that 'the stakeholders have to be a lot more professional', but appears to be using the word in a very general sense. The second is from 2011 and the quoted text highlights two points: the dominance that two teams exert over the league (irrelevant to FPL status) and heavy government funding for the league (somewhat relevant perhaps, but not enough on its own for me).
 * Zambia Super League - sourcing is enough to suggest that it wasn't an FPL as of 2015, but more recent sourcing may be helpful.
 * Ethiopian Premier League - link is dead but archive link works and is sufficient to show non-professionalism
 * Moçambola (Mozambique) - first article is a dead link, but archived page exists; it seems to say half of clubs don't own their stadia before going off on a tangent, but its in Portuguese so idk. no comment on second ref as its in portuguese and I dont understand it.
 * Tanzanian Premier League - google translate of article suggests there are concerns over standards of stadia and refereeing
 * Botswana Premier League - first source quotes then national team manager Peter Butler in describing the league as "semi professional" in 2016; second source, also from 2016, asserts league transitioning to be professional.

I am happy to accept the sources for Zambia and Ethiopia to be sufficient, and the Botswana source is probably good enough, but I'd like to see better sources for the other leagues. Language barriers and lack of reporting prevent me from finding good sources myself, so am asking if anyone can provide sources to support or contradict these leagues being fully-pro. Many thanks, Microwave Anarchist (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think your analysis is very well-done (I'm blindly trusting that what you have written above is true). Given the info presented, I would have no issues moving the leagues above (bar Zambia, Ethiopia and Botswana) to fully-pro. Keeping a league as non-FP just because of a 2009 article that says that "the stakeholders have to be more professional" is ridiculous, especially when presented with a more recent source that shows the league to pay $15,000 a month (on average, though, which is a slight problem). Nehme1499 20:57, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I would probably want something more substantive than average wage figures before considering moving them to fully pro, especially given the goal article is only one source and the fully pro definition requires things like "sufficient contact hours, and facilities, equipment, expenses and other support", but these seem difficult to find or source. I would support removing them from the not-fully pro list until better sources can be located however. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that every league which is not demonstrated to be fully pro, belong in the non-fully pro by default. Geschichte (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Why? If the source cannot demonstrate that the league is not fully-pro, we should not claim that that is the case. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 16:29, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Because if it's not fully professional, it is necessarily non-fully professional. It doesn't make sense to place some borderline leagues in a "void" or "limbo" between f-p and n-f-p. Geschichte (talk) 12:47, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You cant say it's not fully professional if there are no sources to say that is the case. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The onus is on you to prove that it's fully pro, not the other way around. Nehme1499 00:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, but if it can't be demonstrated to be either fully-pro or not fully-pro, it doesn't belong on either list. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * And for the record, I don't care which category these leagues belong in; I just want to ensure that it is correct and verifiable. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

So the average player in DR Congo earns 1 million dollar in 4 years? (240,000 a year = 960,000) Hmmmmmm... This CNN article states the wages at TP Mazembe (2010) were 3,000 a week, i.e. 156,000 a year, and that this kind of "money dwarfs every other team on the continent". Most of the other Linafoot teams obviously trail behind, Vita Club and Daring Motema Pembe maybe not that far behind, but many other teams astronomically far behind. Geschichte (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * How are wage values from 2010 relevant? The wages have likely increased significantly in 10 years so it would be patently absurd to use figures from one club 10 years ago as evidence here. I'm a little dubious of the figures cited by this article but if the source says that "the average player in DR Congo earns 1 million dollar in 4 years", we need to disprove that with more than blind assertions. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 16:37, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Had a quick search for some more refs that may be useful: this interview suggests that Zambia Super League players earn significantly more than in the Nigerian Professional Football League, and this cites wage figures around $5,000/month for many Zambian sides; this suggests, as of 2016, that many smaller Congolese sides only pay "200 to 300 dollars per month", which is low but above the average income there, though also that many clubs are financially insecure. This suggests some players in Angola are on a wage of $28, but doesn't specify whether this is a weekly or monthly value, though that below what one would expect of an FPL either way. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 01:03, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Swiss Challenge League
The Swiss Challenge League is fully professional and should be added to the list. Together with the Swiss Super League, it forms the Swiss Football League, which is responsible for professional football in Switzerland. They work in conjuction with the Erste Liga — semi-professional as per article 1(3) and 1(4) — and the amateur levels of the pyramid, each governed by their respective bodies.

In addition, as per the official regulations, specifically article 6(1), players must be in possession of a work contract to be eligible for registration. It essentially excludes amateur players from competing. --Cslk (talk) 20:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Is there any regulation about the players needing to be full-time footballers (i.e. not relying on a 2nd job to support their income) or about a minimum salary? Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:14, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There's only a distinction between "non-amateur" and amateur and from the articles I could find, a minimum wage has been discussed but not yet introduced -- note this applies to both the Super League and the Challenge League, since their regulations are identical. Instead I have an article that states footballers on average earn a living wage, admittedly in the case of the smallest clubs one that's closer, but still above the poverty line (= earning enough to train full-time).
 * Additionally the regulations use the same wording as the sources German 3. Liga and Austrian 2. Liga reference (both of which are on the list). Incidentally, judging by this article, Austrian 2. Liga players were actually right on the poverty line before covid. Let me know if I gotta translate anything. Cslk (talk) 00:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There is implicitly a minimum wage laid out the regulations, however it's so low that I highly doubt anyone is actually being paid that little. At article 2(3), the regulations refer to the Wettspielreglement of the Swiss Football Federation (found here) to distinguish between amateur and non-amateur players. These in turn say, at article 139, that an amateur player may receive reimbursement of their actual expenses, plus an expense allowance of up to 500 francs per month. Anyone earning more, is considered a non-amateur. Both regulations also require a labour or employment contract (arbeitsvertrag) for non-amateurs, and I'd like to think paying someone as little as 500 francs per month would probably run afoul of Swiss labour laws. I'd say the regulation do allow for possibility that the league is not within the scope of this list. Whether or not it actually is, is another question entirely. Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:47, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Regarding labor laws: As far as I know, if there's no collective employment agreement that's been negotiated through a union (which I think is the case for footballers), you can pay your employees as little as you want, except for the four or so cantons where there's a general minimum wage. I think the 500 franc limit becomes more relevant in the Erste Liga (i.e. Promotion League & 1. Liga) where teams have a mix of non-amateur and amateur players. Cslk (talk) 16:41, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Considering the lack of objections, what's the consensus? Cslk (talk) 16:33, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Jordanian Pro League
According to this 2011 article, the Jordanian football "stars" earned about 500 dinars (~700 dollars) per month, an increase of 200 dinars compared to two years prior. It also notes that most national team players also held secondary jobs. This 2021 article also stresses the low figures of Jordanian players' wages (between 700 and 1,600 dollars). The average salary in Jordan seems to be over 2,000 dinars (3,000 dollars) per month. Given the information provided, I feel that the league has never been fully professional. Nehme1499 16:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's quite damning. Unless anyone has sources to the contrary, we need to strongly consider moving this to NOTFPL. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 06:53, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I've been bold and have moved the league to non-FP. <b style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:80%;color:#000080">Nehme</b><b style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:80%;color:#27B382">1499</b> 12:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * That's fair enough. It's certainly also worth considering sending a few to AfDs whose only weak claim to notability is playing in this league Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 22:28, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I have already done so :) <b style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:80%;color:#000080">Nehme</b><b style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:80%;color:#27B382">1499</b> 22:30, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Replacing New Zealand league on list
I know it's not as big of a priority, but the New Zealand Football Championship folded last year. It's been replaced by the New Zealand National League as the country's top professional league (that isn't FPL). It should be changed on the project page but I don't know what to source. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 05:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Ykkonen League
Hi. I think Ykkonen should be included in the WP:FPL because although Ykkonen is the second-highest level of the Finnish football league system (after Veikkausliiga) but Ykkonen is in fact the highest league managed by the Football Association of Finland - also mentioned in the Wikipedia page of Ykkonen. The premier division Veikkausliiga is organized by a distinct organisation and the lower tiers (fourth tier and below) are organized by the 12 district organisations - mentioned in the Wikipedia page of Football Association of Finland. So being the highest league managed by the Football Association of Finland, I strongly feel that Ykkonen should be included in the WP:FPL. Thanks Jamalahmadpk (talk) 05:28, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not - the Veikkausliiga is probably not technically fully 100% professional, but remains on the list because of the level of coverage it and the players receive. Playing in the Ykkonen definitely does not confer notability. GiantSnowman 08:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. But the reason I stated that Ykkonen should be included in the WP:FPL because is the highest league managed by the Football Association of Finland. Thanks Jamalahmadpk (talk) 07:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Still has no bearing. Otherwise we would include every country's top league which is the top division managed by the respective footballing association. For example, the top New Zealand league is the top division managed by the NZF, but we don't include it because it's not a FPL. RedPatch (talk) 12:39, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

MLS Next Pro
Is the new MLS Next Pro considered a FPL? It's launching this year as a Div 3 league in the US. Majority of the teams will be B teams of the MLS clubs that played in the FPL USL Championship (2nd tier) and USL League One (3rd tier) that are moving over to this new league, as well as some independent pro clubs. It's being touted as a fully pro league, not a reserve division. The rosters will include players on all professional contracts, but also allow for youth players from the team's academy to make some (limited) appearances. RedPatch (talk) 23:28, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I have looked to find information about salaries in the league, but thus far I have not been able to come up with anything other than that the league ostensibly does not have a salary cap. Given how little information is out there right now and how little the league has said about anything, I think it should not be included for now. Jay eyem (talk) 16:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Nothing official yet, but anecdotally a professional player in the USL Championship has said early indications are that salaries for MLS Next Pro are comparable to USL League One, which are only nominally lower than the USL Championship. Worth waiting for more info, but teams that were USL Championship a few months ago have very similar rosters and similar calibre of professional players. UncleTupelo1 (talk) 16:36, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I second what Jay is saying. There's a lot of grey right now. The Athletic published a piece last month that notes a few points (since this is paywalled I'll try my best to include cites to non-paywell versions for each point). Firstly, not only is there no salary cap but there is neither a minimum nor a maximum salary for players. Second, team's will be comprised of 35 roster slots; 1-24 are for professional players and slots 25-35 are for amateur players. That last bit sticks out since to fit FPL, doesn't a team need to be fully comprised of professional players? I know reserve teams sometimes get exceptions but this could be 1/3rd a roster. Plus, those amateur roster rules would apply to independent teams like Rochester New York FC, right? ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
 * USL Championship also has the caveat of being able to play Academy players so I dont really think that should be the cutoff if that is where the hesitation lies. And there is a minimum number of professional players needed on the field at all times. Jstreeter2 (talk) 22:23, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The league has started, any updates on its status? There are a bunch of player articles already created solely after their debut in this league. BlameRuiner (talk) 15:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
 * No changes as far as I can tell. MLS has not been forthcoming about the wages in this league and I don't see a reason to add MLS Next Pro to this list. I think a lot of those articles could safely be nominated for deletion, especially since the major changes at Notability (sports) were instituted. Jay eyem (talk) 03:28, 26 April 2022 (UTC)