Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Archive 14

Chapters
10 Active chapters, 5 Inactive chapters, should chapters = 10 or chapters = 15? Naraht (talk) 00:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I've often wondered that when I see the infobox in the wild. If anything we should change the wording of the label to be "Active chapters" to make it more obvious. I don't think the number of inactive chapters is particularly useful. Primefac (talk) 11:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * In the wild indeed. What about a defunct group that used to have 375 chapters? Would that be zero? I tend to go with the number of active chapters if the group is still active and the total lifetime chapters if the group is defunct. But what about a case of 125 total chapters with only 3 active? Some editors solve this issue by something like: 3 (active), 122 (dormant), but not everyone does this and I think it clutters the field. See my suggestion below. Rublamb (talk) 12:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Reposting my suggestion for the chapter field from above: We could expand this to provide the option of Active Chapters, Dormant Chapters, Alumni Chapters, and Graduate Chapters. These could stand alone or populate the Chapters field, the way Lifetime goes into the Members field. That would let us add these chapter options without having to immediately address the many variations of data currently in the Chapter field. Rublamb (talk) 13:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)Reply Rublamb (talk) 12:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My only quick comment here is that I *hate* using the term dormant in this context. If a GLO uses that term fine, but using it across the project, ug.Naraht (talk) 16:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Inactive works for me. That terminology would align with our chapter tables. FYI: I just came across an article that had something like: 123 (chartered), 12 (active) in the Chapter field. Rublamb (talk) 17:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * At least useful. A group down to 10% of charters. Oof. Naraht (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * , by "I *hate* using the term dormant in this context," do you mean we should reserve "dormant" to describe an entire organization, and use "inactive" for individual chapters? I'd be OK with that.  And again, I support the general plan as discussed.  Jax MN (talk) 20:02, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * All contexts...Naraht (talk) 04:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Delta Sigma Rho-Tau Kappa Alpha Confirmed inactive
Could someone please take a look at my changes and tweek if necessary. Naraht (talk) 14:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Done. I really want to split this into three articles, but we have such a small amount on the merged group that this is not possible yet. Rublamb (talk) 15:52, 7 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Good catch Naraht, on that 2019 announcement. Thanks for jumping on the editing review, Rublamb. I hadn't known of their demise.  This is a great example of where it would be helpful to include the year of their demise in the infobox. Jax MN (talk) 16:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jax MN, can you see if the joined group is in Baird's 19th or 20th? I would like to divide this into three articles, but the details post-merger are lacking. In the meantime, I am going to create the chapter list for Tau Kappa Alpha from 1963. Rublamb (talk) 17:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sent, via email. Jax MN (talk) 18:41, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So eventually (sort of like what happened with Kappa Omicron Nu), I *think*, a DSR page, a TKA page, a DSR-TKA page, a DSR chapters list, a TKA chapters list, and a DSR-TKA chapters list. I don't know if to be glad or not that we don't have any list of notable members.Naraht (talk) 21:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's because I have not yet look for notables. LOL. There probably won't be enough for a list article. Rublamb (talk) 21:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Anything to do other than the APsiO chapters. :) :)Naraht (talk) 21:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Also, avoiding a GA review with really picky comments. Rublamb (talk) 21:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * What I'm avoiding is trying to figure out how to express the three separate articles in the ACHS page and ACHS template.Naraht (talk) 21:26, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Were the former groups ACHS members? Rublamb (talk) 21:50, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * as far as I can tell, dsr, tka and dsr-tka were all members, I need to confirm.Naraht (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I found it; recovered an old ACHS page Rublamb (talk) 23:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * thanx. still thinking about it.Naraht (talk) 02:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

And we probably should have separate articles for the Theta Kappa Phi and Phi Kappa chapter lists.Naraht (talk) 21:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with this plan. Jax MN (talk) 18:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Single Line infobox fraternity usage
I *know* that all templates work if the are all on a single line. Most of the cite templates are intended to be used that way. But for Infoboxes, I find it annoying. Would anyone object to changing single line usages of infobox fraternity to have one line per parameter like the example in the docs? (there aren't many, maybe half a dozen at most)Naraht (talk) 15:08, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Fine with me. Rublamb (talk) 20:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Beta Sigma help needed
I have worked on the Draft:Beta Sigma Fraternity that was declined in draftspace and have it ready to go. However, it brings up the Grove City redirects again (see discussion above). There is a redirect for a local frat at Grove City that is not mentioned in the college article. The fraternity in the draft has over 100 chapters, including international locations. It clearly should have the Beta Sigma title. @Primefac, do you have the abilty to delete the redirect or to fix it so that we can publish this draft as Beta Sigma? Rublamb (talk) 06:51, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Uh... neither Beta Sigma Fraternity nor Beta Sigma have pages there, though I do note that the latter was just deleted a few hours ago via db-afc-move. That or db-move are the best ways to get redirects that are in the way deleted (for future reference). Primefac (talk) 17:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I have the afch tool which marked this when I tried to approve it. I'll check on status when I get home. Naraht (talk) 17:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The Beta Sigma redirect was still live when I checked. I think @Naraht had submitted requests to delete all of the Grove City redirects and it just happened to have perfect timing. Thank you both for looking at this. Rublamb (talk) 20:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No problem. Looks like it went through. I'll need to look at the cats for it, I didn't expect when I requested the deletion of the redirect that it would go as far as it did.Naraht (talk) 20:37, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Just like I wasn't expecting to find secondary sources for a Philippines fraternity... Rublamb (talk) 20:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

UP Cineastes' Studio
The *first* edit on this page was creation with the Infobox Fraternity, and it hasn't changed, but I'm wondering if Fraternity or Organization is more appropriate, opinions?Naraht (talk) 17:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I would think organization since it doesn't seem to have the characteristics of either a GLO or honor society. I will make the needed changes. Rublamb (talk) 19:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It does appear that one applies for membership, maybe that's the reason?Naraht (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Membership is open to all students and does not have restrictions for academics or area of study. It sounds more like a club than a GLO, professional or honor society. Rublamb (talk) 00:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing status
Nineteen left. All are ones that I'm not quite sure of how to put the status, ranging from small GLOs that apparently had a website (but don't have any more) to groups that have been active, lost all of their collegiate chapters but continue alumni activities to I have *no* idea. Could someone please take a look at the remaining?Naraht (talk) 13:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Some were ones I had worked on previously, so I have made progress. Rublamb (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Theta Phi Alpha
Would appreciate eyes on the article. Over the last 4 months, there have been several attempts to delete motto and patroness, but still listed on the sorority website at https://thetaphialpha.org/collegians/Family-information Naraht (talk) 21:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Infobox needed...
Naraht (talk) 01:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Peithologian Society

Good article reassessment for Dartmouth College fraternities and sororities
Dartmouth College fraternities and sororities has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * @Jax MN, do you have time to look at this? Coincidentally, a couple of days ago I decided to work on our FL, FA, and GA article that have declined. I am in the middle of another article (that is in much worse condition) and would rather not jump to another project. Rublamb (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)


 * It's on my list, but I too have several other items in the queue. If someone else gets to it prior to me, that's fine.  I'm not regularly involved with FA and GA analysis or nominations. Jax MN (talk) 20:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I was thinking more about adding needed updates (new or defunct chapters), as that should address any concerns. Rublamb (talk) 23:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This lost GA status. I am fine with that as it has an updates needed tag. However, I guess we need to address the reviewer's statement that this is a list article. I disagree with that and have given the article a B class, one level down from GA. To me, it has more detail than would be included in a list. Thoughts? Rublamb (talk) 18:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

German Burschenschaft
Can I get a second opinion of German Burschenschaft? It has a fraternity infobox but appears to actually be an umbrella organization. Should it be added to Affiliation? Rublamb (talk) 21:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it does count as an umbrella, but how many do we have underneath it? Bring it up on the talk page of the infobox.Naraht (talk) 19:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know how many we have but it claims to represent 70 fraternities. Rublamb (talk) 19:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Good catch. It should be added. Jax MN (talk) 20:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I changed the infobox type and moved this within our watchlist. Rublamb (talk) 18:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yup. Umbrella.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Unknown
Is it worthwhile to have an "Unknown" (not sure on the word) status? I've seen a couple like Delta Epsilon Iota where we don't seem to have surety.Naraht (talk) 19:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Good catch. I agree. The word will also gather answers to the little mystery. Jax MN (talk) 20:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * status defaults to if it doesn't match one of the given values, so Unknown would still show as "Unknown". Primefac (talk) 11:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Once we get the number of missing statuses down to a reasonable (which might be zero), we might want to generate a directory where the value is something other than the given values. (so Unknown and foobar would both drop things into further research needed)Naraht (talk) 17:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

No infobox
I don't want us to forget that we want to identify articles without an Infobox. We could start with any article that has a WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities tag and see what that yields. Rublamb (talk) 02:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That would probably be a Petscan, I think. I'm not quite sure how to do this but the following springs to mind.
 * Include Category:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities articles (In the talk page)
 * Exclude Category:List-Class Fraternities and Sororities articles (in the talk page) Alternately Category:Lists of chapters of United States student societies by society, Category:Lists of chapters of United States student societies by college and Category:Lists of members of United States student societies and subcats from page
 * Exclude Template:Infobox Fraternity (and any redirects to it manually if Petscan doesn't handle them)
 * Exclude Category:Fraternity and sorority houses and subcats

Ideas for other exclusions?Naraht (talk) 15:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I had previously tried Petscan, using Category:WikiProject Fraternities (talkpage) and Sororities without Template:Infobox fraternity. However, I did not get any results. Can you try and see what you get? Rublamb (talk) 15:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * How did you specify that the category was talkpage? I don't see anything on the Category tab to specify that. I tried putting both in the template with WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities in the has all with talk checked yes and Infobox Fraternity in the has none and didn't get any hits, and I think I should (at least the chapter lists.).Naraht (talk) 15:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There is a check box below the place where you enter Category. Rublamb (talk) 16:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I see checkboxes for that in template, not category. Looking at https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=28171132 where is the checkbox?
 * You are correct--under the three template boxes. I was just using template options: items with "WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities" and lacking "Infobox fraternity" as I thought anything with the –  was treated as a template. Rublamb (talk) 18:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Merged/Dormant add year?
Beta Sigma Omicron has been edited to Merged (1964). Do we want to include that on ones where the date is known? I'm concerned about that working with the code to drop groups that are merged from those where it complains about missing website.Naraht (talk) 15:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I think you mean edited to be Dormant (1964). Not a problem. I have only done this with a few. Maybe we should look at Infobox University which has a "Date closed" field. If provided, this the closure date automatically combines with the "Date established" field to give a date range. In reality, status would not be needed if we instead used "Date closed" and would be more specific. We could use the defunct category to find closed groups and only undate that smaller group, rather than all infoboxes. This also makes more sense to me--I think it is weird to indicate 85 years since being formed for a group that only operated for 10 years in early 20th century. Rublamb (talk) 03:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Problem. Changing Sigma Sigma Omicron from status = Merged to status = Merged 1964 adds it *back* to the needs database category. We need to either
 * Stop adding dates
 * Change the software to handle the added date
 * Add in a merged_date and/or dormant date

Naraht (talk) 20:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Number 1 is the easiet for now. But take a look at the way the dates work in Infobox university. I like the way the closure date field merges with the opening date. Rublamb (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I understand and agree with you, Naraht, that this creates difficulty. This particular example shows the value of inserting the date, adjacent to the "Merged" or "Dormant" term.  Sigma Sigma Omicron had several name changes, making it more difficult to understand the eventual outcome except if one reads the body text carefully.  But the problem you note, remains.  If Rublamb's helpful suggestion of using similar code to the University infobox is workable, that may be the best resolution.  I will defer to consensus, but am strumming that same string: aiming for clarity even when it means I/we have to ask someone with more skills in this matter to do some additional coding for us.  By the way, I know that in working through a few hundred situations where "image_size" was missing, that I likely filled your inboxes with alerts that you had to review, so that you could continue tracking each of these societies.  Thanks for enduring that.


 * I think there is a way to accept all such changes without individual review, but I know that I prefer to look at each one. Again, I am a chronic proofreader; never assume that my following up your edits with another "cleanup" edit is in any way trying to upstage. I welcome your edits of my own work. Jax MN (talk) 20:59, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Lambda Delta Sigma and Sigma Gamma Chi - Merged or Defunct?
Given the fact that the Church functionally merged them into LDSSA, would these count as Merged or Defunct?Naraht (talk) 15:34, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Since it did not merge into another GLO, I would use defunct. Rublamb (talk) 20:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Looking for a website
Right now, a group being merged or defunct in Status removes it from the list of websites needed. I sort of wish we also give a pass to "Secret Societies" (Skull and Bones is unlikely to havea web page) and just about anything in the Philippines (I think Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) may be the only one with what we would want for a website).Naraht (talk) 19:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * That makes sense to me. Also maybe Location PR and Type Confraternities. (I know the one confraternity has a website but that is an excpetion, like APO Philippines). Rublamb (talk) 20:06, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Neveremind on confraternities. I have found more websites. Rublamb (talk) 18:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Former_affliation for groups that went local
For groups like Chi Tau and half the Dartmouth GLOs, the situation is that they were members of fraternities in the NIC and then left the Fraternity. It doesn't feel right to have NIC as an affiliation, the independent GLO was never in the NIC.Naraht (talk) 23:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I agree. Rublamb (talk) 00:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

And Our first *three* former group organization.
Sigma Phi Delta. Member of PIC, PFA and NIC and now independent. Have to think about that.Naraht (talk) 02:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Can you put more than one value in the former affliation field? Rublamb (talk) 01:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not and have it do the autolink. May make sense to do a former_affiliation3. I'm *really* in favor of treating PFA and PPA as separate groups given there was a merger with PIC, not simply a name change.

wl jewels and flowers
Based on the July run, I'm going through and wikilinking Jewels (and when in the same infobox, Flowers). Not that major, but I think worthwhileNaraht (talk) 17:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

free label comment
The free labels (and 1 and 2) should match with the displayed labels. In the Displayed Labels, the only words which aren't first that are Capitalized are Greek and Roman. I think the Free Labels should be held to that as well, so "Cardinal principles", not "Cardinal Principles".Naraht (talk) 21:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is any controversy here. This suggestion follows the clear naming rules for subheaders.  FWIW, I agree. Jax MN (talk) 18:25, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think any you are finding are either random editors or typos. Rublamb (talk) 18:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For the Cardinal Principles on Alpha Phi Omega, I may have put it there, but I'd have to check the edits from prior to 2010.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Report not refreshing
Can someone figure out why Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing affiliation is not refreshing? Rublamb (talk) 19:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Because you are using a custom field instead of affiliation. Primefac (talk) 19:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Affiliation still does not show up in VE. Rublamb (talk) 19:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've been going in and replacing your free fields with affiliation. If that is all you are doing, I suggest changing out of VE. I'm guessing something isn't set in the infobox, but for now, the free_field additions are a half measure requiring cleanup.Naraht (talk) 20:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Altered the Infobox doc. Hopefully that should help.Naraht (talk) 20:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I will. Didn't know this was an issue. Rublamb (talk) 21:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)