Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Archive 5

Should lists of chapters be deleted?
I am wondering what is the encyclopaedic value of lists of chapters. I'd like to hear a rationale for why we have these: Category:Lists of chapters of United States student societies by society. I note this question has been asked twice recently with no response. I feel these lists of chapters fail both WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:CLUB and so should be nominated for deletion, but before nominating them I feel it's worth getting some feedback from the project.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  18:47, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:CLUB essentially indicates that individual chapters are not worthy of wikipedia pages. OTOH, I think that Baird's qualifies as a third party source for the lists, at least the portions which are prior to 1991.Naraht (talk) 19:27, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that WP:CLUB doesn't apply to the lists of chapters; it only applies to articles for each individual chapter. WP:NOTDIRECTORY may apply, but only if the list is ONLY a list of chapter names and locations and does not include any other information. Lists that include the charter date of the chapter, years the chapter has been active, and perhaps other narrative information regarding chapter statistics or historical information would, in my opinion, make the list encyclopedic in nature. Michael07lu (talk) 00:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, some of them have considerably more. I've seen some that have the *day* that the chapter went inactive/became active again as well as the chapter letters, and the location within the fraternity organizational structure. Now there are *still* issues in regards to the lists of chapters where the chapter name is linked to a chapter website, but to me, that should be dealt with separately.Naraht (talk) 14:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I am looking here for the reason why a list of chapters is considered of encyclopaedic value. I don't see that adding the date a chapter was founded gives encyclopaedic value to the general reader. If a list is of little value in itself, adding minor details doesn't make it of greater interest, it simply makes the list bigger. It would not help to add the telephone number or post code, either. In the same way that a list of branches of McDonald's is not of value, adding the date they opened would not then make such a list of interest. What I am looking for is the reason you guys, who are interested in Fraternities, would value a list of chapters for each Fraternity. Why is that of interest to you?
 * As an outsider I wonder if people have been including it simply because the information is available, without thinking of the value of the information. And because the information is quite long, folks have then been splitting the information out into standalone articles so as not to swamp the parent article.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  17:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not extremely well versed in Wikipedia policies, but I can speak as to why I feel this information is important and not at all comparable to a listing of branches of McDonald's.
 * 1.) First of all, there is no uniform way that chapter names are issued. Most (if not all) fraternities use Greek letters to distinguish their chapters, but they vary in the order that names are assigned, especially when dealing with double letter names. While names are generally issued alphabetically according to the chronological order that chapters are chartered, some avoid repeated letter names (e.g., Alpha Alpha, Beta Beta, etc.), while others incorporate other eccentricities in their naming systems. Information on the naming system used is either directly stated in or can be extrapolated from the "list of chapters" articles. Chapter naming is of particular interest among fraternities because chapter names indicate relative age of a chapter (see next point).
 * 2.) Single letter chapter names indicate the oldest chapters in a fraternity. These chapters are usually held in higher esteem because they would most likely have been founded at the same time that the fraternity's founding members were still active in the organization. Thus, there is historical value to be gleaned from knowing what chapters are oldest and which are newest.
 * 3.) Most all lists of fraternity chapters include the founding year of the chapter, and some the exact date. This information allows analysis of the boom growth periods of a fraternity.
 * 4.) For the average user of Wikipedia who may stumble across an article about a fraternity, it may be of interest for that person to be able to see whether there is a chapter of that fraternity at a particular college or university.
 * These are just some things I thought of quickly.Michael07lu (talk) 17:16, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Michael. The 4th point falls under WP:NOTDIRECTORY - the amount of information we could include because it may be personally useful to an individual reader would swamp the encyclopaedia if we didn't have some form of restriction. The information we put into articles should be of general enduring interest to any reader, not to a select handful who have attended a particular college. Having said that, it may be appropriate to mention in an article on a particular college that it has certain fraternities. But that's a different issue. The other three points are all related, and I can see the value in charting the growth and expansion of a fraternity - but listing chapters is a very unsatisfactory way of doing that. What we do on Wikipedia is summarise knowledge gained from reliable sources. So if a reliable source has written about the growth and expansion of a particular fraternity based on the spread of chapters, then that would be fine. But copying out a list, and then expecting our readers to do some original research from that list, is not what we do. We do not do the original research ourselves, and we do not present the full text of primary sources. So, the way we expect things to be done is like this: Acacia_Fraternity rather than this: List of Acacia chapters. We put material in context, as said in WP:EMBED :- "Prose is preferred in articles as prose allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context, in a way that a simple list may not. Prose flows, like one person speaking to another, and is best suited to articles, because their purpose is to explain." Your first three points are all best done in prose rather than in list format. Unless there are any further points to consider, I'd like to put List of Acacia chapters up for discussion at AfD to see how the community feels about these lists. I don't think these lists are obvious deletion candidates, but neither do they appear to be appropriate encyclopaedic content, so the discussion may be interesting.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  17:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There are certainly areas out there where complete lists are included and *not* turned significantly into prose, such as Modern pentathlon at the 1912 Summer Olympics or All-American Girls Professional Baseball League batting records. There is a degree to which Wikipedia is not just an Encyclopedia, but also to some degree an Almanac Jewish holidays 2000–2050. The guide that is being used as to what is appropriate is Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities which is *the* reference book for Greek Letter Organizations.


 * Additionally would the List of Acacia chapters would be more acceptable *with the exact same data* if only the chapter names and schools were available from the acacia.org website and the dates of chartering were pulled from Fraternity magazines and Newspapers?


 * And I've always considered Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources to be about prose, *not* lists.Naraht (talk) 02:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, we have a lot of list articles. Lists can be useful for presenting certain forms of information in an accessible manner. Though not all forms of information are suited to list format, and not all information meets Wikipedia's inclusion criteria. What I am looking for here is why a list of chapters would be useful on Wikipedia. One answer has been that is shows the history and development of the fraternity, though that - as indicated above - is better done in prose. Are there any other reasons?  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  15:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The value is probably pretty low, but I would be inclined to keep them as long as they're sourced and as long as the list is too long to put in the main article. More of a style issue than anything.--GrapedApe (talk) 13:15, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd be interested in why you would be inclined to keep them. What value do they provide? I have not taken any of these lists to AfD, as there are a lot of them, which suggests to me that some people find them of value. I am, however, missing out on why they would be of value. If there is a way of utilising that value on Wikipedia, then I would rather do that than have them removed.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  15:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think a well done list has value: List of Phi Kappa Psi chapters and colonies. Gives an interesting view of the frat's growth and geographic extent. --GrapedApe (talk) 16:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a well done list. From that I can get a sense of the value of chapters to someone interested in the history and development of a fraternity. The list format might be seen as a more useful way of presenting the information because so many chapters are mentioned. To mention all those chapters in prose sections would be unwieldy, and would inhibit navigation. That list could be a Featured List. Seeing where a list could end up if appropriately developed shows the value for even the scruffiest and inadequate start. If a list is of value when done properly, then it is of value, and we don't delete something simply because it's scruffy and starting out. It might be worthwhile someone doing a guide for this project on how to do lists, based on List of Phi Kappa Psi chapters and colonies. Such a guideline would also give legitimacy to this sort of list and provide a ready answer for people like me who might consider nominating a list for deletion.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  18:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the kind words about List of Phi Kappa Psi chapters and colonies. I'm the primary editor, although I've been mostly away from editing duties for over a year.  With regard to making it an FLC, there are a few more things that I believe need to be done.
 * The first is that there is another list, List of Phi Kappa Psi Grand Chapters and Grand Chapter Award winners. I am not sure if this list should stand on it's own.  My plans are to put the finishing touches on at, get a peer review, and than make it an FLC.  If along the way it is not deemed to contain sufficient encyclopedic value, then it will likely be merged into List of Phi Kappa Psi chapters and colonies.
 * Another issue is that a template may need to be created to make it easier for others to edit List of Phi Kappa Psi chapters and colonies. It seems that every time someone makes a good faith effort to edit it, the formatting gets screwed up.
 * It is my view that more information should be entered for various chapters in the notes column. That will take a bit of time.
 * If all goes well, I see it becoming an FLC around April. NYCRuss   ☎  20:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm getting in on this late but think the chapter lists are extremely useful; on a separate page "List of..." is fine. Triangle Fraternity's is an excellent example of a comprehensive list supplying various pieces of information mentioned by other editors as potentially being useful. Check a movie star's Wiki page and somewhere you'll find a filmography even though that info is available elsewhere such as IMDB. Notwithstanding the fact that chapter lists are probably available on the websites of each chapter's national HQ, I suggest keeping the chapter lists somewhere in Wikipedia. And what about a national fraternity no longer in existence? It won't have a national office but may be deserving of a Wiki page. Casey (talk) 23:45, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

WikiWomen's History Month
Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Fraternities and Sororities will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in sorority history. We've created an event page on English Wikipedia (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Filipino Fraternities
I've been recently dealing with Wikipedia pages for various Filipino Fraternities and Sororities Category:Fraternities_and_sororities_in_the_Philippines and they tend to have a high degree of Self-promotion in the pages and my guess is heavy WP:COI issues. Any help and suggestions would be welcome.Naraht (talk) 11:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Featured Article candidate
Kappa Kappa Psi is a current Good Article-class, High-importance article in this WikiProject and it is being considered for Featured Article status. The current nomination is due to an exemption given by one of the FAC delegates; the first nomination closed with few comments and no consensus on whether or not the article had achieved Featured Article status. I am posting this to ask all contributors to the FRATSOROR project to consider reviewing the article. Thanks! Sycamore (talk) 19:46, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Single chapter fraternities
Articles for deletion/Kappa Phi Epsilon. Notability claims based on receiving "first place in spirit points at Dance Marathon."--GrapedApe (talk) 12:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Verifiability
Recently, a WP:V was added to the Kappa Sigma page. A cursory glance at other fraternity and sorority pages contains no consistency of when or why the tag was added, other than many of these pages contain lots of references to the organization's own web site, pledge manual, or newsletters. Pages without tags include Sigma Chi (reliance on the Norman Shield - their pledge manual), Beta Theta Pi (only one reference to their web site), Alpha Chi Omega (several references to its website). At the same time, both Delta Gamma and Pi Beta Phi have the verifiability tag attached to their page.

To me, this raises two questions: 1) Since WP:V does allow for self-published sources, does reliance (or heavy reliance) on an organization's website or other material merit that the page should be tagged with a WP:V tag? 2) Since most of these organizations do not get much press coverage (with the exception of college newspapers), are there better ways to find neutral third party sources about these organizations? --Enos733 (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say that the answer to you first question is "no." The two FAs under this project (ΑΦΑ & ΑΚΑ) have over 50% of their references from self-published resources. The only current FAC (ΚΚΨ) has a similar percentage. You point out the reason--there just isn't much independent coverage. But ΑΦΑ, ΑΚΑ, and ΚΚΨ have many independent resources citing important bits of information also. If there is TOTAL reliance on self publication, I think WP:V might be merited. Reliance, even heavy reliance, on self published material is to be expected of articles under this WikiProject. We must ensure for the integrity of the project that this reliance does not introduce or excuse issues of POV. 2) But there are resources for all GLOs: Greek marketing websites can serve, as they do for ΚΚΨ, an independent attestation of membership numbers. Google Books and Google News Archive can provide historical facts. University archives from Alpha chapters may display yearbooks and college newspaper archives online, or a collegiate editor from the Alpha chapter could access microform editions. Baird's Manual is in just about every college library in the US and can provide an independent resource for expansion rates, historical events, and even verifiable descriptions of the society's jewelry. Most facts will be cited back to pledge manuals or the inter-/national website, but creative editors can find ways to cite quite a bit through other means. Sycamore (talk) 14:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Disputed/protected pages...
At this point, I know of 3 Fraternity and Sorority pages which are at various level of protection due to a referenced fact being included on the page where that fact is something that a significant number of members of that Fraternity or Sorority do *not* want on the page. These are
 * Kappa Sigma - Name given for organization in Kappa Sigma History


 * Phi Gamma Delta - Use of the Greek Letters of the organization in the Infobox instead of Fiji


 * Alpha Phi - full private motto

I'd appreciate any additional entries to this list and ideas on how if at all as a project, we can work on this. For example, as far as I can tell from the argument, if a decision was made on the Wikiproject that exceptions could be made to the policy of using the Greek letters in that location, it might be good enough to change the decision on Phi Gamma Delta. For the others, perhaps a dicussion of what is and is not a proper reference for greek information might be useful. This might change the decision on Alpha Phi (which is from one book that doesn't have a good reputation). I doubt it would do so for Kappa Sigma, as the reference there is to an old edition of Baird's (and if Baird's is not an acceptable reference for Fraternity and Sorority articles then we might as well *all* go home...)Naraht (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * According to the FIJI talk page, "The decision to include the Greek letters in articles about fraternities was made at WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities. They have decided that the Greek letters add encyclopaedically useful information to articles about fraternities and sororities." I think that, if FIJI does not use their Greek letters the same way other fraternities do, it's almost misleading for us to use them the same way on Wikipedia. The words "Phi Gamma Delta" and "FIJI" are okay to use, so we just need a note on the page explaining that they only put their Greek letters on certain items and change the Greek letters on the page to FIJI, as that word replaces for them what the actual Greek letters are used for most other Fraternities.
 * As for Alpha Phi, I think that the source for what is allegedly their secret motto can be contested under WP:RELIABLE and removed. If another, reliable source comes along, then unfortunately it would likely be added again.Sycamore (talk) 16:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * See section created below. For Fiji, having the discussion on the Template page and referencing it here (and the Phi Gamma Delta page is, IMO, the way to deal with this. In addition, I can't find where the "decision" was placed in stone. One way or another, I think it is a good way to go.Naraht (talk) 17:57, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Proposal on change to description of the letters field.(Fiji exception)
On the talk page for the Infobox Fraternity (Template talk:Infobox fraternity), I started a discussion on allowing for a more common name in place of greek letters if appropriate. Yes, this is done as the formal way to consider allowing for the use of Fiji rather than the greek letters in the Infobox at Phi Gamma Delta. Please comment at the Template talk page. I am also posting this to Talk:Phi Gamma Delta.Naraht (talk) 17:46, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Single chapter fraternities
Is every club with Greek letters automatically notable, even if it has only 1 chapter and totally fails the general notability guideline? Some people think so. Over the past few weeks I have been trying to review the hundreds of articles on single chapter fraternities to determine which are actually notable. Here are some AFDs that could use some review by project members:
 * Articles for deletion/Beta Kappa Gamma
 * Articles for deletion/Beta Omega Phi
 * Articles for deletion/Beta Sigma Zeta
 * Articles for deletion/Gamma Sigma Zeta
 * Articles for deletion/Phi Beta Epsilon
 * Articles for deletion/Phi Eta Kappa
 * Articles for deletion/Phi Society
 * Articles for deletion/Phrateres
 * Articles for deletion/Sigma Delta Phi (2nd nomination)
 * --GrapedApe (talk) 18:37, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Essay for new Fraternity pages...
There is a Wikipedia page for every NIC, NPC, and NPHC organization (except Iota Nu Delta), but there are still more pages about Fraternities being created, and especially for non-honoraries, there are *severe* COI and N-NPOV issues. I think of particular difficulty in this regard are the Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines. I'd like to put together an Essay in this regard, either for creation of all new Fraternity/Sorority pages or particularly for the Filipino groups. I'd like suggestions and such for the essay including any essay would could be used as a guide...Naraht (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * DEFINITELY NEEDED. Good idea. Started at WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Notability.--GrapedApe (talk) 01:17, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Input gained from 3 users. Any others before I remove Draft proposal?--GrapedApe (talk) 03:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Lede convention
It seems to be conventional for fraternities to begin their lede with the Greek-letter name of the fraternity, rather than the legal name—such as "Kappa Kappa Psi, National Honorary Band Fraternity, (ΚΚΨ, colloquially referred to as KKPsi or KKY)" as opposed to "Kappa Kappa Psi Fraternity, Inc. (ΚΚΨ...)". All three Fraternities and Sororities FA-class articles are formatted that way.

The reason I bring this up is that recent edits to the Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia page have changed the lede to "Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia Fraternity of America, Inc. (also known as Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Phi Mu Alpha, or simply Sinfonia)". This appears to be in line with WP:NCCORP, which recommends that the first sentence include the full legal name of the corporation. Should we change fraternity pages to be in line with this naming convention, or create our own naming convention for fraternity and sorority pages that excludes legal names? In most cases, the legal name is just "Fraternity, Inc." or "Sorority, Inc." appended to the end of the Greek-letter name and seems superfluous to the article. Sycamore (talk) 01:18, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd have the Fraternity full name including Inc pushed down to the history section which probably should include the date it was incorporated.Naraht (talk) 15:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Two different lists of Stubs...
Ideally Category:Fraternity_and_sorority_stubs (which comes from putting the on the article page and Category:Stub-Class_Fraternities_and_Sororities_articles which comes from putting  (or other importance) on the talk page for the article, *should* have the same articles in each category, right? Any situations in which they should be different?

Sigma Theta Pi's article/page deletion
The wiki page about Sigma Thêta Pi, an international francophone fraternity was deleted on October 28, 2012 by User:RHaworth. Please review this deletion and the issues that led to the page's deletion, as this fraternity is a legitimate and recognized Greek letter organization. Thank you. Drdpw (talk) 03:33, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, it was deleted 3 times (Sigma Theta Pi and Sigma Thêta Pi). Please review WP:GNG to learn about the requirements for a notability.--GrapedApe (talk) 14:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the requirements of notability. I believe you missed my concern and request.  Would someone from the fraternity and sorority project group please take a look at Sigma Theta Pi Fraternity and the deleted Wikipedia article about and determine whether the organization merits having an article in this Wikipedia and how, if it does, can the page be restored/re-created and improved so that it meets Wikipedia standards.  On a general note, I see up-page that there has been discussion about articles for single chapter fraternities/sororities; I guess I posing a new general question, which is, What, in the project group's opinion, makes an international fraternity or sorority notable enough to warrant having an article written and posted about it? Drdpw (talk) 16:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Tau Epsilon Phi Fraternity
Hi I have recently been following the Tau Epsilon Phi Fraternity wikipedia page because my children were involved in a hazing incident at Cornell University. There were significant amounts of 'legal' debates going on that wiki page that just are not about the spirit of fraternities in general. I have looked at other fraternites on this network and not one of them has these objectionable content posted. I think that there is a lot of selfish point of view being tossed around and things that are not important to encylopedic content. As a parent, already, flabergasted by a hazing situation, I think you need to put a stop to Tau Epsilon Phi talking about personal corporate business on its site and removing the legal issues all together. It is not good for the spirit of fraternities in general and some things are best kept inside. Thanks.
 * If a fraternity has legal issues due to hazing that are covered in reputable secondary sources, it is appropriate to have information to that respect in the article. For example, look at the Kappa Kappa Psi article which addresses issues that arose with the (non-fraternity) hazing death of FAMU drum major Robert Champion and how those issues affected the fraternity's FAMU chapter. While I don't think that a laundry list of any fraternity's legal troubles should be included in their article, it's encyclopedic to include when it can be cited appropriately. I think it's appropriate to keep such information concise, though—the Tau Epsilon Phi article is about half legal issues, which seems overkill. Sycamore (talk) 02:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Then, why doesn't the same apply to butt chugging incident of Pi Kappa Alpha and how it affected the UT chapter like FAMU chapter by indefinite suspension? Cantaloupe2 (talk) 02:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Because without the contentious material, the Pike article sits at 381 words of prose. The Tau Epsilon Phi article does not include any contentious information as of right now, and sits at 556 words of readable prose (as calculated by User:Shubinator/DYKcheck). Tau Epsilon Phi's article is nearly 1.5 times as long as Pike's, and the ΤΕΦ history section is 316 words. That's 83% of the entire size of the Pike article and 135% the size of Pike's history section. The issue, as I alluded to above ("While I don't think that a laundry list of any fraternity's legal troubles should be included in their article, it's encyclopedic to include when it can be cited appropriately. I think it's appropriate to keep such information concise, though—the Tau Epsilon Phi article is about half legal issues, which seems overkill."), is WP:WEIGHT.
 * Including information about the incident at FAMU for Kappa Kappa Psi is not WP:UNDUE because while that portion includes 246 words of prose (over half—65%, to be precise—of the size of the entire Pike article, for comparison), the Kappa Kappa Psi article itself is 4,281 words of prose long, making the information about the FAMU chapter only 5.7% of the entire Kappa Kappa Psi article. Furthermore, the Kappa Kappa Psi article gives a great deal of background regarding the death of Robert Champion because no article exists to cover that incident. If an article is created for Robert Champion's death (which I have been considering for some time, but have not had time to create yet), the material on the FAMU incident could conceivably trimmed at KKPsi to be less than 5% of the entire article, which I believe would be ideal.
 * That gives the information about FAMU half the weight of the Howard University incident as it is currently included (specifically, the sentence "This and contemporary racist incidents at other schools caused Pi Kappa Alpha's move to begin a colony at the historically black Howard University in 2006 to be met with disapproval from many students and alumni.") which is 35 words and 9.2% of the Pike article. This previous revision of yours had 12.2% contentious material, and this older revision which still had information about hazing events at Berkeley had 16.7%—nearly 1/5 of the article—marked as undue weight.
 * That is quite different than Kappa Kappa Psi's 5.7%, but not as severe as ΤΕΦ's obvious undue weight in this revision, with 24% of the article devoted to the fraternity's legal troubles, and certainly not as severe as the undue weight in the revision that sparked this original conversation, in which a whopping 62.5% of the article was devoted to its legal troubles.
 * While I don't think it's appropriate to say "at this percentage of an article, contentious material becomes WP:UNDUE", I think it's useful to make these comparisons for the sake of discussion. Sycamore (talk) 03:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, I saw a parent post the Cornel Hazing allegation on there but it was moved and rightfully so. I think specific names of indivudals and legal battles about money and god knows what else is a silly a useless waste of time and resources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.222.164.241 (talk) 02:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of notable incidents that receive US wide or international coverage
Company pages on Wikipedia sometimes include notable incidents receiving major attention even if it was something that occurred at one location. One such example is McDonald's coffee incident which can be found n McDonald's' Wikipedia page

When butt chugger butt chugged at PKA frat, it received international attention. If incidents put the name of fraternity in international light, wouldn't it be notable event to include? (positive or negative) Cantaloupe2 (talk) 21:06, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If it references reputable sources and doesn't give undue weight to the incident, then it should be included. Pike's article is currently very short (295 words of prose), so including information on the incident could easily be as long as the existing content which would give undue weight to a single incident at a single chapter of the fraternity. When the Florida A&M chapter of Kappa Kappa Psi was shut down for hazing and made national news, I worked it into the KKPsi article—but the Kappa article sits at a little over 4000 words of prose, so including it doesn't lend undue weight to that incident. Sycamore (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

(e/c)
 * The McDonalds's coffee incident had long lasting effects on McDonalds and actually had international coverage. I've been unable to find *any* news source outside the United States on this. The fact is that the incident got less coverage than many Hazing incidents, I've seen. The *only* thing that I've seen that is notable from it is that the word "butt chugging" has made some end of the year "word lists" but the first one I checked, it was one of 30 or so words for the year... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naraht (talk • contribs)
 * The fact that it got picked up by UK, New Zealand and Hong Kong news outlets speak a thing or two about notability. Daily Mail UK and Huffington Post UK New Zealand Hong Kong and actually re-written in what looks like Chinese Cantaloupe2 (talk) 23:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that it's a notable incident, but I think that adding it to the Pike article when it's as short as it is lends undue WP:WEIGHT to this one event. I don't think this is really comparable to the McDonald's incident, either. It doesn't look like this is going to have a lasting impact on Pi Kappa Alpha or Greek life in general beyond the term "butt-chugging" and the suspension of one chapter for three years. Sycamore (talk) 00:16, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the recent Northern Illinois University hazing death in which a member died? Media reports it a ritual, fraternity national office allegedly refutes it. In RfC, comments were made that actual hazing incidents connected to the association can be worthy if inclusion. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 00:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, it's an issue of WP:WEIGHT. Wikipedia articles about fraternities and sororities should not be laundry lists of hazing incidents at chapters of those organizations. If an article is long enough to support information that is unfavorable to the image of its subject, such information can be added if it has been widely covered and is notable. It's my personal opinion that the Pi Kappa Alpha article is not long enough to support this, as it doesn't look to me like there is enough information in the article for even a single new member education session. Adding information about either the NIU hazing death or butt-chugging would easily be as long as the current article if any amount of necessary detail was included, so I don't think it's appropriate to add it without likewise expanding the history and philanthropy sections. Sycamore (talk) 00:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)


 * So, what is your interpretation of that policy? It says that "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views." If most of coverage in mainstream media is happens to be more negative than positive, that represents the majority view and as such, it doesn't appear to represent "minority view". Do you have same contentions about frats that only have positive coverage in its article and should those points be removed until counterbalancing negatives are found? I don't think that's how it works though. Look through press coverage. If you were go go back to early 20th century, you'll find routine announcements about its social events and such, but it is predominantly about incidents, death, hazing, authorities and what not that PKA chapters find themselves in. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 00:52, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Even going back to historical things and print books.. Again it looks like death... hazing... is a big part of histories of fraternities, as well as PKA Wrongs of passage Whites Only clauseCantaloupe2 (talk) 00:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The relevant part of the policy is the fourth paragraph in that section (emphasis mine):
 * I don't personally care whether or not the majority of news coverage of any given Greek-letter organization is positive or negative. I imagine that it's mostly negative, but fraternities and sororities actively pursuing their purposes and mission aren't interesting news stories. The point of Wikipedia is not to give a laundry list of every negative incident that makes the news for any organization, because that's clearly POV, regardless of the viewpoint given by news articles.
 * And yes, hazing has historically been part and parcel of Greek life, and racism has a long history in predominantly White GLOs, but it has been decades since the last national GLO lifted its Whites-only clause, and every national GLO has anti-hazing policies. It's not significant in my opinion to mention Whites-only clauses in fraternity and sorority articles unless an organization was particularly and notably stubborn in refusing to remove such a clause or if it is part of a detailed history of the organization in question. Looking back through this conversation and your recent edits, it appears to me that you have it out for Pike. Sycamore (talk) 01:22, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not something I was aware. Its actually something I discovered as I was sourcing "Pi Kappa Alpha" on Google Books, so I learned something new; and I would guess as will the article reader, which is the point of this purpose. People don't come to Wikipedia to read up on things a duplicate of what they can read on the homepage of the subject. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 12:28, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * As a comment, Alpha Phi Alpha *does* include information on when the Fraternity allowed men of all Races (previously limited to only Negros), but that's part of a History section for the Fraternity that goes on for 4 or 5 screens. Get the PiKA history (and note, I've *never* seen Pi Kappa Alpha abbreviated PKA before) up to 2 screens and I'd support adding it. I would also personally be supportive of a wikipedia page with information on each fraternity/sorority who had or have limitations based on race and/or religion, when they removed it and whether any chapters left or were declared inactive over it. *That* article belongs on Wikipedia.Naraht (talk) 14:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * What else would you use to establish the organization's notability requirements? Until I started editing, the article was pretty much spokesperson page for PKA based entirely off of their website which is a ground for notability failure. If the majority of reliable and significant coverage is mainly negative, would you say its POV? I can understand POV concerns if there's plentiful of press coverage on both sides.  If general coverage skews to one side, it maybe a good representation of general perception by society. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 15:40, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Almost every extant fraternity or sorority can use Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities to establish notability and provide citations for basic facts about the organization such as a brief history. A matter-of-fact handling of the organization's history may be supported by WP:PRIMARY sources (A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge.) and secondary sources where these exist. What is inappropriate is bringing up several incidents, including incidents that happened over fifty years ago as you did on the Pike article, that are "disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic" and therefore at odds with WP:UNDUE, which I have mentioned several times and you have ignored each time. Sycamore (talk) 20:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In this case, I suggest and select the top of the 3 entries which is the 1920 Baird's.Naraht (talk) 14:37, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In this case, I suggest and select the top of the 3 entries which is the 1920 Baird's.Naraht (talk) 14:37, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that once notability is established, factual information about organizations can be described using their own materials. This is not to say that they can be used to establish notability. If it was, any page about anyone would be allowed on Wikipedia written entirely off of their personal site, press release and such. Companies, organizations, and people REQUIRE reliable, in-depth, third party coverage for inclusion consideration. A mere existence does not automatically constitute notable. There is no Wikipedia POLICY which says fraternities are held to different notability standards than other private groups (i.e. community groups, student groups, church groups, etc. etc. etc.), so everything is to be held to WP:CORP and WP:ORGDEPTH unless contradicted by policies.   Cantaloupe2 (talk) 10:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Which is why I said that you can use Baird's Manual to establish notability. That's literally the first sentence of what I wrote and the entirety of Naraht's contribution. Sycamore (talk) 10:45, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Auxiliaries
There doesn't seem to be any information about "auxiliaries" on Wikipedia--that is, typically female-membership "little-sister" organizations to fraternites. They've been banned by the NIC, but they were fairly significant and widespread in the early- to mid-20th century from what I can tell. Do later editions of Baird's say anything about them? I would like to see if there's enough information out there to create at least a stub covering auxiliaries. It would be useful for Tau Beta Sigma, which originally petitioned Kappa Kappa Psi to become a nationally-recognized and sanctioned auxiliary unit, and I don't think it's necessary to expand on the concept of auxiliaries in a single sorority article when it was not unique to TBSigma. Sycamore (talk) 02:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Created a stub at Auxiliary (fraternity or sorority) but there's a lot of room for improvement. Sycamore (talk) 02:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment
I have initiated an WP:RfC at Talk:Pi Kappa Alpha.

Concerning supposed project wide conflict of interest editing
In light of my recent editing, another member who is apparently well versed in this area of articles commented that there is a project wide struggle with WP:COI, WP:SPS and WP:RS. I should also note that the member who commented this on this page is a Pi Kappa Alpha member. Given this loaded POV expressionhis significant direct editing is highly controversial. In the areas of products and companies page, astroturfing by company staff and PR firms have raised many controversies, including Microsoft, Daimler, US Congressional staff and Stella Altois. Given a charged statement "I took it upon myself as a brother of PIKE to restore it to a respectable state", "respectable" in the interest of Wikipedia and how the subject wants to be portrayed are not consistent. Pike maintains a library about its organization and I would think that other ones do as well, however such library is a private library and can cherry pick which books to stock and reasonably carry something that looks favorably upon itself.(as do churches about their own denomination). If "brothers" and "sisters" write based on those materials, it can cause systemic bias in GLO articles.

Fraternities are organizations and as such they should be held to the same scrutiny as a company officer editing their company page when it comes to self advocacy(through their pledged members who are supposed to be honorable to their fraternity). "honor to fraternity" and neutrality can have a conflicting interest. I'm not seeing enough use of here to avoid direct editing by members and alumni. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 16:00, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think the appropriate comparison here is with a company. I think the appropriate comparison is with a religion. Pi Kappa Alpha brothers should be held to the same standards editing the article that a Catholic would be held to when editing Pope Pius VI (to pick a random pope.). (Officers in a company are likely to measure no more than 1000, both fraternity and religion membership are several orders of magnitude more)Naraht (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with the last comment. The problem is not that members of an organization edit, but how they edit. If the editor tries to "cleanse" an article of controversial facts, that is the problem. If an editor, who happens to be a member of the organization adds relevant, encyclopedic information, that should not be discouraged. Enos733 (talk) 18:17, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * First, WP:COI is a guideline, not policy, and it clearly states at the top that "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." There is nothing that says fraternity members must make use of in order to edit their fraternity's page, so long as they are editing with the goal of improving Wikipedia thru their edits and not to promote their organization—though the former may have the same side effect of the latter. It would be best practice for fraternity or sorority editors who intend to heavily edit the article of their own organization to declare their affiliation, but I see no requirement in any guideline. What is not and should not be permitted is the editing of any GLO article by that organization's headquarters staff because they are paid employees of the organization. Even if an editor is an officer at a local chapter, that is not comparable to serving as a paid officer of a company and editing that company's article. Naraht's comparison is accurate. Sycamore (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, that is incorrect. There is no written policy which differentiates closely affiliated personnel from paid editors. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 23:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, you're wrong. There is no policy that deals with COI (COI is a guideline, not a policy—a minor but important distinction in this case because guidelines "are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply" according to WP:PG). According to WP:COI, "Editors with COIs who wish to edit responsibly are strongly encouraged to follow Wikipedia policies and best practices scrupulously. They are also encouraged to disclose their interest on their user pages and on the talk page of the article in question, and to request the views of other editors." and "Paid advocacy is a subset of COI editing" which means that in fact paid advocacy is different from unpaid volunteer editing by affiliated parties. Sycamore (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I was addressing that there's no distinction between paid vs unpaid editors in how policies are applied. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 02:00, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Did you read WP:COI? It very clearly states that "Editors with COIs who wish to edit responsibly are strongly encouraged to follow Wikipedia policies and best practices scrupulously." while "Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing, and should instead propose changes on the talk page of the article in question, or on a noticeboard such as WP:COIN. ... If you have a financial connection to a topic (as an employee, owner or other stakeholder), you are advised to refrain from editing articles directly, and to provide full disclosure of the connection. You may use the article talk pages to suggest changes, or the template to request edits. Requested edits are subject to the same editorial standards as any other, and may not be acted upon."
 * Very few fraternity/sorority members are stakeholders, owners, or employees of the corporation that controls the fraternity. Mere membership in the organization does not confer stakeholder status. There is a very obvious difference between paid editors and unpaid editors in how WP:COI (which again is a guideline and not a policy) is applied. Sycamore (talk) 02:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with comparing with religion. Entering/leaving religion is much easier than joining/unjoining frats. Suppose PiKA members were to insert something that goes against something that is in conflict with his pledge of conduct, or something unflattering into PiKA page. Could the member receive any sanctions? What if a member posted a phrase from the uber secret ritual and the chapter/national found out? Could he be subject to persecution, harassment, or sanctions? If so, there is a PW:COI which limits how someone may edit openly. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 02:00, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

phi beta sigma fraternity inc. philippines chapter
phi beta sigma fraternity inc. Founded here in Philippines DECEMBER,07,1973 on julo sulo.. Our Mother chapter MSU.. Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity was founded at Howard University in Washington, D.C., January 9, 1914, by three young African-American male students. The Founders, Honorable A. Langston Taylor, Honorable Leonard F. Morse, and Honorable Charles I. Brown, wanted to organize a Greek letter fraternity that would truly exemplify the ideals of brotherhood, scholarship, and service. The Founders deeply wished to create an organization that viewed itself as “a part of” the general community rather than “apart from” the general community. They believed that each potential member should be judged by his own merits, rather than his family background or affluence…without regard to race, nationality, skin tone or texture of hair. They desired for their fraternity to exist as part of an even greater brotherhood which would be devoted to the “inclusive we” rather than the “exclusive we”. From its inception, the Founders also conceived Phi Beta Sigma as a mechanism to deliver services to the general community. Rather than gaining skills to be utilized exclusively for themselves and their immediate families, they held a deep conviction that they should return their newly acquired skills to the communities from which they had come. This deep conviction was mirrored in the Fraternity’s motto, “Culture For Service and Service For Humanity”. Today, Phi Beta Sigma has blossomed into an international organization of leaders. No longer a single entity, members of the Fraternity have been instrumental in the establishment of the Phi Beta Sigma National Foundation, the Phi Beta Sigma Federal Credit Union and The Sigma Beta Club Foundation. Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, founded in 1920 with the assistance of Phi Beta Sigma, is the sister organization of the Fraternity.

Mission Statement

The brothers of Phi Beta Sigma are the Fraternity’s most valuable resource and strength. They are the primary means by which the Phi Beta Sigma objectives will be achieved. In order to accomplish the Fraternity’s objectives, it is essential that systems are instituted that effectively embody “Culture For Service and Service For Humanity” and promote brotherhood To optimize Phi Beta Sigma’s effectiveness, the Fraternity will: •	Strengthen and serve proactively the brotherhood, as a supportive resource that positively impacts the Fraternity’s growth and financial solvency. •	Reaffirm and maintain a strong commitment to brotherhood, •	Ensure that the Fraternity programs are focused and committed to serving humanity. •	Create an environment that respects the dignity and worth of each brother. •	Exhibit integrity and ethical behavior in conducting the Fraternity’s business. serving as a model for all. •	Maintain and improve the Fraternity’s technological literacy, in order to better service its members and the community at large. •	Foster and nurture our constitutional bond with Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Inc. •	Encourage a closer and mutually beneficial working relationship with fellow filippino organizations, other community service organizations, businesses and government. •	Select leaders who are committed and have demonstrated their ability to lead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.194.245.168 (talk) 08:22, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * What are your chapter letters for Phi Beta Sigma at Mindanao State?Naraht (talk) 15:35, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There are no chapters in the Philippines that are recognized by Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc. Per the directive of Phi Beta Sigma International President Jimmy Hammock, a cease and desist demand will be sent by The Fraternity's General Counsel John M. Turner.  (user)(talk) 16:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've communicated with a number Pinoy (Filipino) Fraternities and the Fraternities using US images, badges and belief that they have a tie with the USA is truly scary. As far as I can tell, the only groups in the Philippines that have a recognized tie to a same named group in the US are Alpha Sigma Phi Social Fraternity and Alpha Phi Omega Service Fraternity. Other groups with *no* legal tie include Phi Beta Sigma, Alpha Tau Omega, Alpha Delta Phi, Phi Beta Kappa and Alpha Chi Omega. There are a few groups that have the same name, but don't claim any tie at all such as Sigma Alpha Epsilon (which in the Philippines came from "Society of Agricultural Engineers", sometimes individual brothers will use SAE-USA symbolism, but the National Organization has said that isn't proper.


 * I wish the Fraternity General Council luck. Phi Beta Kappa-USA has been trying to nail down Phi Beta Kappa Philippines for over two years. One advantage that Phi Beta Sigma *might* have is that it doesn't appear that Phi Beta Sigma in the Philippines has registered with the Philippine [[

Securities and Exchange Commission (Philippines)|

Security and Exchange Commission]] (http://iregister.sec.gov.ph/MainServlet).

Image column in tables for Lists of members of United States student societies
What do you think? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:16, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you mean in the templates used to create some of the tables like List of Alpha Phi Alpha Brothers? Interesting idea. If so, I tend to oppose for a couple of reasons. First that it will tend to make very obvious those with pictures and without. Secondly concerns about images due to their copyright are only suitable for the page about the individual person. Thirdly, on some of the larger pages like the List of Alpha Phi Alpha Brothers, it would make the tables *much* longer.Naraht (talk) 15:39, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what templates you mean. I'm referring to list articles like List of Kappa Alpha Psi brothers and List of Sigma Kappa sisters.


 * Images for some would make others seem missing, but I'm not sure that's a huge deal. Food for thought.


 * Most images of people are from commons, and so they're okay to use in multiple articles.


 * I see your point about making some articles too long. But, many tables are not 100% wide because a wasted area at the right is used to add a few images. If that area is removed by moving the images into the table, that should result in only a slightly longer table, in most cases. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh right. I see the template now. Then yes, that's what I mean. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:07, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The whole thing sounds like a can of worms. I think I should just drop it. Thanks for the thoughtful reply, though. Cheers, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

RS question...
http://books.google.com/books?id=4htx62wIXIgC&pg=PA256 is used as a reference in the Pi Kappa Alpha article (p325). Any ideas on that book.
 * It's from the For Dummies series, That seems like an RS to me.--GrapedApe (talk) 14:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review Needed
I thought i would reach out to those who have the most interest in the topic. I'm looking to have a review done on the Phi Beta Sigma article in hopes to have it reassessed and upgraded from Start level to FA, GA, or A level in time for Phi Beta Sigma's centennial. The article has recieved extensive expansion and the major problems with it have been fixed. If anyone is interested in helping please contact me on my talk page. (user)(talk) 19:55, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I took a crack at it. Anyone else can feel free to chime in.-GrapedApe (talk) 14:10, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Looking for some input into Phi Alpha Delta
Hi all. I just gutted some fairly large swaths of what I believed to be cruft from Phi Alpha Delta's article. This professional fraternity is fairly ubiquitous around law schools, and has pretty clearly been around for a long time. Unfortunately, it looks like the article has stood fairly unchallenged by cleanup efforts for several years. Not being too familiar with fraternity and sorority articles around WP, I'm not entirely sure what belongs and what doesn't (e.g., a complete list of all "chapters", which is basically just a local student group at every American law school). There are some NPOV issues as well (the "A Fraternity of Firsts" section comes to mind). I think I've done all I can with it. Could someone more familiar with these issues take a look? &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 20:43, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Sigma Phi Epsilon Chapters Missing
There are several missing Chapters in this page. I cross referenced a few state lists and in a matter of five minutes I had already found many missing chapters. Kansas is missing Pittsburg State, North Dakota is missing University of North Dakota, California is missing California State University at Fresno, Northridge, Sacramento and University of Southern California, University of California at Los Angeles, and Florida is missing Florida Atlantic University. Im sure there are several other missing chapters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnharrison1995 (talk • contribs) 08:10, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You should feel free to Be Bold and add them yourself.--GrapedApe (talk) 11:45, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

List of chapters templates
Regarding the template for chapter lists, I feel it would be improved if the information under the location heading be separated into city and state so the two can be sorted separately. Also, the name of the state should probably be spelled out. Freddiem (talk) 22:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

People in a Fraternity Category
My rule of thumb for a person being in the Category:Rho Rho Rho is that the person either have been a founder of Rho Rho Rho or have been a National Officer for Rho Rho Rho. So for example, for Alpha Phi Omega, there are four people in the Category:Alpha Phi Omega. Frank Reed Horton, primary founder, Ray O. Wyland who was a founding advisor, Harold Roe Bartle who was the second National President, and Senator Mark Hatfield, who served as the National 3rd Vice President for a term. It does *not* include president Bill Clinton even though he was the most well known alumnus because he didn't hold an official position in the Fraternity. Does this rule of thumb sound reasonable?Naraht (talk) 15:49, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * It does. IMHO, Hatfield probably shouldn't be in the APO category unless he did something significant while he was a national officer. The top-level category for a fraternity should be limited to founders and major national officers. If it's relevant to categorize alumni, then some kind of a members or alumni category should be used, such as Category:Rho Rho Rho members. —C.Fred (talk) 16:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've gone back and forth about Hatfield a number of times and decided to include him only because he was elected by the entire national body. And I think the decision has been not to have any "Member" category for GLO or "alumni" category for schools. OTOH pages with lists of Notable members/Notable alumni are appropriate.Naraht (talk) 19:12, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Corps Altsachsen Dresden
Hello everyone, A while ago, I started reading about this Wikiproject and decided that we needed to add a few German Fraternities to the mix. Hence, I translated an article with some friends of mine from German to English and added it to WP a few days ago. As I'm not a native speaker (and only two of my friends are "half-natives"), I would love to have the article be checked by a native English speaker. The article deals with a typical old-school European fraternity that is only somewhat similar to what people know in the US and Canada as student societies. Anything that you'd like to add to or improve in the article would be highly appreciated. The review can be found here: Peer review/Corps Altsachsen Dresden/archive1 (and the article, obviously is Corps Altsachsen Dresden) Thank you for your help :) Cheers, -- WikimanGer  Talk • Mail   17:28, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

AfD for Sorority at University of Ottawa
This AfD for Sigma Beta Phi on grounds of notability is relevant to your WikiProject, if you'd like to participate in the discussion. 0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 14:31, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Alumni Associations - new page or not?
A new user recently added a (rather large) list of area Alumni Associations to List of Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia chapters. I'm thinking that this list should be on its own page; while there are multiple AAs across the country, they're affiliated with regions and not specific universities/chapters. I thought I'd get some opinions before proceeding. Cheers. Primefac (talk) 18:46, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd say that alumni associations should definitely not be given a new page. I'm ambivalent on whether they should be on the chapter list pages: that should be a content discussion for the talk page.--GrapedApe (talk) 23:19, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Psi Upsilon crest
Hey, does anybody have an image of the crest of the Psi Upsilon fraternity? I've realized that we are missing one and it would be very useful to put on the page. Vacationlandman (talk) 07:30, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet for Wikiproject Fraternities and Sororities at Wikimania 2014
Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost The deadline for submissions is 1st July 2014 For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to: Project leaflets Adikhajuria (talk) 13:31, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorority and fraternity template
I'm wondering if we should make a sorority and fraternity template. There are separate templates for NPHC, greek umbrella organizations, etc, but it seems like it would be a better navigation tool if they were combined into one big template. For instance, if I'm in a fraternity and am interested in reading about that topic, chances are I want to read about organizations outside of just NPHC or NPC. I think it would be a good addition to wikipedia. I'm willing to do the work (if I can figure out how to do so). Thoughts? Bali88 (talk) 15:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about an infobox? If so, there's Template:Infobox Fraternity. Primefac (talk) 07:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I mean a navigation template. I'm not sure if that's what it's called, but if you look at the bottom of the United States article, there is a "united states topics" box. I think there should be a big one that combines all of the various sorority and fraternity topics. Bali88 (talk) 13:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, it is finished. I'm sure it could still need some brushing up though if anyone wants to work on it. Template:Fraternities and Sororities Bali88 (talk) 14:44, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The template looks very nice, but it seems a bit lengthy to me. Is it really a good idea sticking that at the bottom of every fraternity/sorority page? There's already the List of social fraternities and sororities (which looks like it needs some minor cleanup), so a "See Also" section could be added to the bottom of each page linking to the full list instead of adding that monster.Primefac (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It is very long. Way longer than I had anticipated. I'm still trying to figure out the direction I'm going to go with it. I figured out that some of the organizations are in multiple umbrella organizations, so if I delete the multiple listings, that will narrow it down some. I might also make the template just for social fraternities and sororities. That would cut it in half! It should change quite a bit in the next week or so. Bali88 (talk) 13:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I would leave just the first two rows "History" and "Related Concepts" and then add a third row with a list of lists of fraternities and sororities. Enos733 (talk) 21:38, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I tend to agree. I'll do that in the next few days. Someone else is welcome to work on it too. Bali88 (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Archiving topics
This talk page is getting a bit long, if no one is opposed I'll set up an archive with lowercase sigmabot III.Primefac (talk) 16:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC
 * There are previous archives, but apparently created by hand (User:Miranda mostly). I'm cool with the addition of botted archives here.Naraht (talk) 16:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Derp, didn't even notice the archives list at the top. It's not a huge page (and doesn't get added to very often) so I'll just do it by hand. Primefac (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because there is a large (> 3 month) gap, I'd move everything up to April 2013 into the archive and keep the October 2013 and after .Naraht (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Next Chapter List to fix - List of Tau Epsilon Phi chapters
I think the next list to fix is probably List of Tau Epsilon Phi chapters. There is a pretty good source at http://www.tep.org/chapters/chapter-roll. Sadly enough, there are few enough active chapters, that the external links might be suitable to keep.

Any others in Category:Lists of chapters of United States student societies by society that stand out as need to be updated?Naraht (talk) 15:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Article on Beta Beta Beta needs this WikiProject's help to expand it
Granted, it's an academic fraternity (as opposed to social), but, this Project's Talk Page Banner (as seen at Talk:Alpha Phi Omega and other places) clearly states "includes but is not limited to International social societies, local organizations, honor societies..." and so there we have a Greek Letter Honor Society (AKA an Academic Fraternity). My point is that we should add more Sections to that Article, probably make the Chapter List a separate Article, and while I'm at it, make sure the serial numbers in the table match the actual chapter letters (instead of getting lazy at the end of a slowly expanding table, as it is right now).

Who else is with me on this? Look at the Article as it stands and see for yourself. It has improved immensely in the time I've followed it, but it is still not enough. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe this is obvious and I'm just not seeing it, but what are the numbers for? And yes, if we include all 500+ chapters, it would need a separate article! Bali88 (talk) 23:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The numbers are just a legend for the Local Chapter Letters. So we don't have to memorize that Rho Beta Chapter is (by definition) the 410th Chapter of its organization, for example. (Founding Chapter being Alpha, second being Beta, third Gamma, etc.) Still, you have a point. Perhaps we could remove the left column numbers from Beta Beta Beta (and other GLO Articles which currently have them) and Create an Article on Local Chapter Letters, or better yet, somebody develop an App that converts serial numbers to Chapter Letters and vice versa.
 * So we are in agreement about needing a separate List of Chapters Article, which we already have for Tau Kappa Epsilon, Alpha Phi Omega, Phi Beta Kappa, and others.
 * As to where this Article can go, there is plenty of information available on this organization's history, and also its association with Bios (one of the few peer-reviewed journals that accepts undergrad theses). There is certainly plenty of notability here! The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:04, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I think an organization with 500+ chapters is notable enough to have a stand alone list of chapters. My suggestion for the list is to make it sortable, then put a column detailing the year it was originally founded. That way, the reader can put it in order if they want to with just one click and if an editor comes by and does a crap job putting them in serial order, it's still a usable chart without a ton of work. Plus, I think there are probably a lot of dum dum readers like me who won't know what the numbers mean. Also, I don't know if this will work, but it's worth a shot: I'm wondering if we have a sortable list, instead of writing them out (Alpha Phi), if we put the greek letters instead (ΑΦ), if it would automatically alphabetize them? I think a sortable list is the way to go. I'm sure there are probably people who would want to put it in alphabetical order by school too, so I think it's a good solution. Bali88 (talk) 13:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The entirety of this article seems to be the chapter list, so it definitely needs more fleshing out to avoid a possible AfD. I do agree, though, that there is no reason to put the chapter number in the table. I would suggest simply ordering them by founding date, which would both put them in Greek-alphabetical order; not really any reason I can see to have them be a sortable table. Any chapters founded out-of-order can have some sort of note (like those in the Phi Mu Alpha chapter list.Primefac (talk) 15:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The reason I suggested to have a sortable table was because Willstro was concerned that multiple editors may work on it and put them out of order, necessitating further editing. Secondly, a reader may want to sort by most recent additions, or alphabetical by school. Also, it's not any extra work doing it that way, so there isn't much downside to it. Bali88 (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * See below, founding date and greek letter name do *not* line up for Beta Beta Beta.Naraht (talk) 15:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Table List
OK, I've uploaded the list from http://www.tri-beta.org/localchapters.html, cleaned it up a *lot*, table-ized it and put it at User:Naraht/BBB chapters sandbox (Yes, Ideally we'd use the Fratchapterstart, etc templates, but for now...). The numbers are irrelevant as far as I can tell, Beta was not chapter #2 in founding, (somewhere between 6th and 9th) and as far as I can tell, the chapter letters were defined by location, (for example all of the chapters starting with Zeta are in Puerto Rico). If the areas can be referenced, then it might even make sense to split the table by these sections. I can certain change/add the spelled out letters (Zeta) with the Greek, but I'm not sure it makes as much sense. No information on how to sort within the years, haven't found an easily accessible list with months and days. Anyway, take a look.

Should I replace the table in the article with the one from my sandbox?Naraht (talk) 03:14, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally I think the Universities should be wikilinks. Too bad there isn't more detail regarding founding dates, would make the table a lot more informative. As to your question: what you have is better than what's currently there, so I think it should be replaced. Primefac (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks great. I replaced the sorting markup because it didn't appear to be working and got about 1/3 of the universities wikilinked. Go ahead and put it in the article. Bali88 (talk) 16:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for starting the Wikilink, but I'm going to go back to the spreadsheet that I've got and automate the addition of the double brackets and then fix the ones that would be redlinked using what you've done so far, so hold off with the remainder of the wikilinking, OK? Also, thank you for the fix on the sorting markup. If I haven't gotten a better version in my sandbox by Friday, go ahead and upload it. (Yes, I know that anything I've uploaded anyone may edit, but give me a bit of time, OK?Naraht (talk) 16:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Status of Table. I'm doing with linking everything and the National Treasurer of BBB has been helping with disambiguating entries like Emmanual College and Bethel University. I've got one that I missed and sent back to her. If she doesn't have anything with chartering dates within years or which ones are active, then I'm going to put it in the article and move on to the next challenge. Anyone got a suggested GLO for next?Naraht (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * As a quick note, I figured even if I couldn't find the exact date for most chapters I could still find it for their founding chapter, but *nope*. I can't find anything including on the Society homepage and rituals (those are public) saying what day in 1922.Naraht (talk) 16:04, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Done with Chapter List
The chapter list is done. History can be filled in with Baird's and a Prose version of http://www.tri-beta.org/Milestones/index.html. Naraht (talk) 15:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this list should be on its own page, especially given its size. I am happy to do this. Primefac (talk) 15:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for working on this guys! Bali88 (talk) 15:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Fine on own page, leaves the original page a little light (though not quite stub, I think), which of course can be fixed.Naraht (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank You
Thank you all so much! There are still a few changes I would suggest (such as finding a reliable way to indicate inactive or disbanded chapters where they appear in the table), but those can be discussed in the "List of Beta Beta Beta chapters" Article Talk Page at a later date! For now, thank you all, and I hope the weekends you're all enjoying right now are as wonderful as mine! The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 20:50, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

List of chapters template
Regarding the template for chapter lists, I feel it would be improved if the information under the location heading be separated into city and state so the two can be sorted separately. Also, the name of the state should probably be spelled out. Freddiem (talk) 00:29, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's create an Article on Rho Tau Chi (PTX)
This is a coed service Fraternity not entirely unlike Alpha Phi Omega (AΦΩ). Whereas AΦΩ was founded for students who are/have been Boy Scouts, Rho Tau Chi (PTX) was founded for Veterans who subsequently go back to college. Just as AΦΩ no longer requires prior Boy Scout affiliation, PTX no longer requires prior Military service. Still, both these coed frats have their themes and their sources of Fraternal values based on other pre-existing organizations (in the case of AΦΩ, the BSA, and in the case of PTX, the US Armed Services).

Basically, PTX is to the Military what AΦΩ is to Boy Scouts. That is just for the sake of analogy to introduce PTX and ask you guys to help me find enough sources for a future Wikipedia Article (since PTX has as yet no Article).

Thank you in advance. Just think of it as a reason to create 1 more Fraternity Article. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 04:14, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If I'm reading my sources correctly, Rho Tau Chi has only one active chapter and was founded in 1993, correct?Naraht (talk) 15:54, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Always link?
The word "Red" shouldn't always be linked, is there any circumstance where a GLO with a wikipedia page shouldn't be linked from another article (other than already linked elsewhere in the article)?Naraht (talk) 21:52, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Stubbing the remainder of the ACHS
I noticed that Sigma Lambda Alpha honor society was more or less built from the entry at http://www.achsnatl.org/society.asp?society=sla&honor_society=Sigma_Lambda_Alpha. I created Mu Kappa Tau based on that. Does anyone see any problem with creating these stubs?Naraht (talk) 19:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Use of 'the'
Which is preferred (and is it preferred enough to make changes?) or Naraht (talk) 15:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Smith is a member of Rho Sigma Tau fraternity.
 * Smith is a member of the Rho Sigma Tau fraternity.
 * From what I've seen, it depends on the context; when you're talking about an aspect of the fraternity, there would be "the," but if it's just the fraternity itself, there is no "the"
 * Smith is a member of the Rho Sigma Tau fraternity.
 * Smith was initiated at the Delta Nu chapter.
 * Smith is a member of Rho Sigma Tau.
 * At the end of the day, I think it's ambiguous enough that we shouldn't spend time splitting hairs over what's grammatically perfect. Interesting question, though. Primefac (talk) 16:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Sigma Delta Rho
So I created Sigma Delta Rho but am thinking it should be renamed. Basically, from 1909 to 1932 it was a local at Amherst College, Sigma Delta Rho. From 1932 to 1957 it was the Alpha Mu chapter of Theta Xi. It then returned to being a local but not under its former name, as Alpha Theta Xi, which it was known as from 1957 to 1985 when it became defunct. Which name would be most appropriate for this article? DocumentError (talk) 01:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Personally, I would go with whatever it is referred to most in the sources. Honestly, you might have a notability issue with this article. The fraternity has been mentioned in several sources, but I'm not sure it would survive an AFD. Something you might consider: I think an article about greek life at Amherst might fly if it does get deleted on those grounds. The information contained in that article would be great in an article about the history of greek life at Amherst. Bali88 (talk) 02:47, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a very excellent suggestion. I'll start working on that now and plan to fold this into it. Thanks! DocumentError (talk) 03:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

GA noms
FYI, I've just nominated Delta Upsilon, Delta Psi (University of Vermont), and Rainbow Fraternity for GA if anyone is interested in reviewing them. DocumentError (talk) 22:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Phi Beta Kappa chapter list?
It seems almost odd that we don't have a page for the Phi Beta Kappa chapter list. So far the best that I've seen with years attached is at https://books.google.com/books?id=6Sw7AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false, I can'treally find anything useful at www.pbk.org that would be easily brought to Wikipedia. Does anyone have any ideas? I'd be happy to create it if I can find a single source for anything close the the present day.Naraht (talk) 16:34, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The 1991 Baird's repeats the 1976 list, so we've got everything from there back, I may have to OCR that list from my copy. I guess that I can call them as well...Naraht (talk) 16:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Created and working on expanding at List of Phi Beta Kappa chapters. Any help on finding dates for any of the chapters without chartering dates is helpful!Naraht (talk) 20:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Alpha Phi Alpha FAR
I have nominated Alpha Phi Alpha for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 13:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

List of LGBT and LGBT-friendly fraternities and sororities
Recently, someone deleted a sorority from the list of List of LGBT and LGBT-friendly fraternities and sororities with the rationale that it is not notable enough to have a wikipedia article. When I questioned it, they pointed me to the talk page saying that the criteria is listed there. All I can find there is a post saying to abide by the criteria set forth in the lead...which does not contain any criteria. If there is criteria set up for the article, it should be more obvious. Maybe it's just me and I'm too much of a dumb dumb to find it, but I think it should be laid out a little more clearly. Also, I disagree with the criteria that the article should only contain organizations that have wikipedia articles. Typically, that critieria is only used when there are hundreds of possible entries and you have a need to limit it. At most, there may be a handful of LGBT organizations so there is no reason to limit it like that. The list of social fraternities and sororities doesn't even limit it like that. Anyway, no one is apparently manning the article, so I'd love some feedback to gain consensus on this. Bali88 (talk) 13:38, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * , while I agree that there is no explicit "rule" set out anywhere in the article (except one deleted last year) there does seem to be precedent to only keep groups that have a Wikipedia page. You've done the right thing by posting on the talk page, and until it gets resolved (formally) then I would advise not re-adding Gamma Zeta Rho (or any other REDLINK, even though per Wikipedia's rules they're acceptable). Primefac (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Right, that's what I'm trying to do here--get it resolved. So if you could give your feedback on the talk page I would appreciate it. :-) Bali88 (talk) 15:40, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Fraternity Pins
Template:Infobox fraternity has entries for Pledge Pin and Colony Pin, but not for brother pin. I've found a Fraternity Pin collector on Wikipedia who is willing to share images of the Fraternity pins that he owns. I've seen at least one fraternity that has an image of the pin in the *crest* entry in the infobox, that that shouldn't be. So should we add it? I guarantee we'll get more entries than the Colony Pin. And in loading the image, under what Licensing should it be loaded?Naraht (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This is worth exploring, and the photos of the pins would be a fine addition. What we will find is that adoption of pins varies widely. While some groups use "colony pins" others simply have a standard pin and a pledge pin.  (These of course may also have levels of grand officer pins and donor pins.)  For a time, chapter designation pins were also common.  Naraht, you mentioned my use of a pin photo instead of a crest in the infobox for Psi Omega. True; this was done because after a search I was unable to find a JPG of their crest or a scanable image.  Further, it appeared that the pin itself was a stylized version of a 2-d crest. Some other researcher may be able to find one, and I'd welcome that change. Nevertheless, I think the infobox template can and should be updated, as you have suggested. Jax MN (talk) 12:52, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Do we have any examples of articles with colony pins? Alpha Phi Omega does have one (we call our colonies petitioning groups), but I'm curious as to whether that entry is currently used in the infobox. Well, we should be able to scan pretty much anything out of the pre 1923 Baird's...Naraht (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Delta Psi
FYI, I just created Delta Psi (University of Vermont). St. Anthony Hall is currently sitting on a redirect to Delta Psi ... would anyone feel a "Delta Psi" disambig page would be in order? (My assumption is SAH should just keep the wikilink for Delta Psi since it will be more likely to be searched given its extant status.) DocumentError (talk) 10:59, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The only unlabeled disambiguation page I've seen is Delta Phi Epsilon. There is also an Omega Phi Alpha (disambiguation) page, but only one of the Omega Phi Alpha's is active. At most, I'd go with a Delta Psi (disambiguation) page with links to the two articles. As you said, Delta Psi is much more likely to be search for SAH.Naraht (talk) 16:03, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Add Naraht (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Draft:University of Virginia Greek life
Hi, I'm working to get an article on UVa's Greek life added to Wikipedia and I'm looking for some help with adding third-party sources/reviewing the article. Unfortunately, my initial submission was rejected because several of the published histories of UVa that I used have conflicts of interest (i.e. the author is an alum, a former faculty member, the book was published by UVa Press, etc.). Likewise, most histories of Kappa Sigma and Pi Kappa Alpha (which were founded at UVa) present conflicts of interest as well, since most of those histories were written by people associated with the fraternities. I've already used Baird's Manual and I have several sources that briefly mention UVa's Greek life, but I'm looking for other third-party sources (likely histories of UVa or histories of fraternity/sorority life) that discuss UVa's Greek life in greater detail. Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks! Puppysnot (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)Puppysnot (talk) 17:16, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks like this page has now been accepted. Congratulations.  Jax MN (talk) 03:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep! Thanks for your advice on my talk page. I'll continue to improve the article and link to it on other pages so it gets more exposure. Puppysnot (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Can someone look at the Theta Phi Alpha page?
Hello I'm new to wikipedia but I've been doing a lot of work on the Theta Phi Alpha page I was wondering if someone could look over it to see if it still needs the starter quality or if it can be bumped up to C-class (If thats how you do it; honestly I have no idea). Thank you in advance :) Msnicolem (talk) 19:21, 10 July 2015 (UTC)