Wikipedia talk:WikiProject French communes/Archive 5

Rating
How does someone request the rating of a French town's article's rating? Rating seems to applied all over the place but no apparent section of this Wiki project seems to have a rating section request or discussion. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 19:48, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Rating? As in, assessment?  jj137 (talk) 22:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia WikiProject French communes is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks. NA 	This page is not an article and does not require a rating on the quality scale.
 * Pretty explicit, I'd like one of these updated on a particular article if that's possible. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 17:57, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone from WikiProject_French_communes alive and available to rate an article then? Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 19:58, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't help much on this. I suggest looking at procedures for review in WikiProject France/Review. I've never asked for a review to be made of my work or made a review. I just get on and write/translate stuff. Dickie (talk) 16:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, thanks for the tip, will have a read of Wikiproject France's rating process. Cheers, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 15:14, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group
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Fouday Bas Rhin and Ban de la Roche
The modern official grouping of several villages under the new name Ban de la Roche was very temporary. The name Ban de la Roche nevertheless remains relevant for the Ancien Régime seigneurie and Comté. I would write Ban de la Roche rather than Ban-de-la-Roche (it is several words) ; it grouped the villages of Rothau, Wildersbach, Neuviller, Waldersbach, Fouday, Bellefosse, Belmont, Solbach.

I would suggest American Wikipedia to put the light on the whole of the seigneurie ; it was culturally a whole ; you could be born in Fouday, baptized in Walderbach, married in Rothau. I think Fouday in itself does not have muxh interest for the American reader, but Le Ban de la Roche as a whole clearly has much.

As a whole, Le Ban de la Roche (the ancient régime seigneurie, not the temporary modern township) has a certain importance for Americans :
 * immigrants as early as 1636 on ship fr:Princess Augusta (navire)


 * many immigrants after ; many American descendants in Pensylvania, Ohio, Ilinois ; an example : I read that the name Gockley is the 40th American name in number ; well, Gockley (Cocklin, Gagley, etc) is a englishisation of the bandelarochian name Caquelin (a family arrived in 1636 on the Princess Augusta)


 * an Amish place ( fr:Censes anabaptistes )

It has an interesting culture : witchcraft trials, permanent religious dissidence,minister J. F. Oberlin I have difficulties to express myself in English Look at all this --Nicolas Baeteman (talk) 07:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

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Thanks. — Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}<sub style="margin-left:-4.0ex;">κοντριβς – WP Physics} 09:10, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

Problematic mass editing of french communes
There has been some discussion on the admin boards regarding recent alterations to a great many articles on French communes by a dedicated wiki-gnome. That discussion can be seen at Administrators' noticeboard/Archive189. Basically, references were added to those articles, one of which is being discarded as a self reference to the French Wikipedia, however, links to the main page of the INSEE and IGN sites might also be questionable. Discussion to be continued here, not on the admin boards. Should those links stay ? Is there any way to access information about communes on the IGN site (which keeps changing all the time ...) ? Maybe automate references to census numbers on the INSEE site ? Equendil Talk 20:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * There are two pages on the INSEE site for each commune that are particularly useful: one is already linked directly from the infobox (if the insee number is given), e.g. http://www.recensement.insee.fr/RP99/rp99/c_affiche.affiche?nivgeo=C&codgeo=24210, giving the population at the 1999 census, the other is the "fiche", e.g. http://www.insee.fr/fr/methodes/nomenclatures/cog/fichecommunale.asp?codedep=24&codecom=210, giving the administrative setting of the commune (department, arrondissement, canton). Given the insee number, this could be automated as well. IGN used to have really useful pages about each commune with coordinates and minimum and maximum elevation, but they have disappeared. Markussep Talk 22:24, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * For a couple of years, on the advice of an administrator, to all communes I've updated, I've been adding the following (example):
 * == Notes ==
 * This article is based on the equivalent article from the French Wikipedia, consulted on September 12th 2008.
 * Could he (Ksnow) have part-copied this, thinking it was the right thing to do ?
 * N.B. As advised, I also add this banner to the talk-page
 * All we need to do now is persuade him to do the same. Dickie (talk) 10:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, we should not be using self-refs in the articles themselves; if the articles are based on the French Wikipedia articles, we should cite the sources the fr.wiki articles used. The talk page bit, on the other hand, is fine. Having just noticed that we have templates for this kind of thing and thus are encouraging it somewhat, I've asked for clarification at Wikipedia_talk:Citing sources – xeno  ( talk ) 14:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Interested parties may wish to comment at Templates for deletion/Log/2009 April 13. – xeno  ( talk ) 14:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well the templates were kept in the TFD... So how do you guys want to treat the lines added by Ksnow? Remove outright, or replace with Frenchtrans perhaps ? My bot is approved to make these 21000 changes en-masse, but I need you guys to sort out the consensus on what to do. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 19:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Could your bot replace Ksnows general INSEE reference with specific links, using the INSEE number given in the infobox? For instance http://www.insee.fr/fr/methodes/nomenclatures/cog/fichecommunale.asp?codedep=AA&codecom=BBB, in which "AA" are the first two characters of the code, and "BBB" the last three? Note they're not always numeral, for instance "2B050" for Calvi. Markussep Talk 07:25, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd vote for replacement with, only because that's the one I use. The INSEE update would only work if there's already an infobox, of course. Provided that existing updated examples (e.g.Nohant-en-Graçay) don't get corrupted, I'm happy with your bot doing his stuff. Dickie (talk) 07:49, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

(From User talk:Xeno) Looking at the matter it appears that most editors don't realize the real nature of the problem. Ksnow has added a sentence "based on the article in French Wikipedia" (something like this) without actually checking if it was actually true. This is what made me doubt of her reliability - she seems to have assumed that any article on a French subject was automatically based on the French version of the article. The point is, she added according to the principle "when in doubt, add", so what i have been asking for on WP:ANI is "when in doubt, remove". I didn't think it would be so complicated. As far is i know, nobody has yet bothered to check if any of the 21.000 articles was indeed based on French Wikipedia! --RCS (talk) 18:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have created a more general template, Template:iw-ref that might alleviate these issues (the fact that most of Ksnow's edits were just some census updating means that it was unlikely the entire article was based on the fr.wiki, but merely incorporated some information). See it in use at Alette:
 * thoughts? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 15:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well yes: even if this template is much better, it is still speculative. There is definitely no way to know how much Ksnow or anybody took either from French Wikipedia or directly from the horse's mouth (for instance, whenever i changed or updated a figure, i took it directly either from the city's official website, or from the INSEE). As i said, when in doubt, remove, this is my firm opinion.--RCS (talk) 18:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I am no longer adding this sentence. In fact, I am removing it when it appears. Ksnow (talk) 12:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Ksnow
 * So you agree it needs to be removed entirely, rather than replaced with the above mentioned template? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 12:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. It was pointed on my talk page that it is not really a valid reference. Ksnow (talk) 12:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Ksnow
 * Thank you. I will proceed on this information. Happy editing, –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 12:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC) Some comments copied over from User talk:Ksnow for posterity
 * Phew! --RCS (talk) 13:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

&larr; So, just to confirm before I start: Remove the line by Ksnow. Remove IGN... (? per )) and try to incorporate the INSEE numbers from the infobox to the ref? Do I have it right? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I say yes, but then i suppose you want fellow admins to tell you. Have a nice day. RCS (talk) 14:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not at all, I want input from FRCOM members like yourself =) Barring any objections, I'll proceed as planned once I have the Find/replace module worked out properly. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 15:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep - The IGN link was pointless, as clicking on the coords (if they exist - and they should) gives precise links to myriad mapping sites anyway. Dickie (talk) 08:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Another useful reference would be the Lion1906 webpage. It contains the coordinates, average elevation, area and some more information that's not on the INSEE site (and was on the IGN site before they removed it), for every commune in France (except those outside Europe, like Guadeloupe, Réunion). For example for Bresdon, a small village in Charente-Maritime: http://www.lion1906.com/departements/charente-maritime/bresdon.php. The search engine can handle INSEE codes, for instance http://www.lion1906.com/Php/Resultats/Resultat_Codes_Insee.php?VilleCodeInsee=17062 (17062 is the INSEE code for Bresdon). The site doesn't really say where the data comes from, but I think it's reliable. Markussep Talk 16:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The French wiki communes nearly all include an =External link= to the Lion1906 site as "Localisation de Commune sur une carte de France et communes limitrophes" Dickie (talk) 09:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's right, but Lion1906 gives more info than just the location and a map. It could serve as a reference for the coords anyway. When in doubt about commune coordinates, I mostly use http://www.geoportail.fr or Google maps. Markussep Talk 09:19, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You could also write a Lion1906 search into the infobox - it might be difficult to have the bot automatically find the correct link. Docu commented at my talk page that if the INSEE was split into two paramaters, both INSEE could be linked from the infobox. It's too bad there's no parserfunction that can chop up a string.
 * Anyhow, with some kind coding help from User:MZMcBride, the bot is running (Special:Contributions/Xenobot) - let me know if you notice any issues. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 00:33, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Task complete
The task is complete, I believe. It ran from May 1 to May 12 (UTC). To review the contributions, start here, and go backwards 21,415 edits... Only one person came by to comment, right at the very last few edits ... It seems that after the line was added they actually made it true! Anyhow, I told them how to use iw-ref, i.e., if actual, significant information is brought over from French Wikipedia that requires GFDL attribution:

would result in:

let me know if you guys notice any issues. =) cheers, –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 04:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Minor attention
Talk:Bailly, Yvelines explains the minor attention this article needs. --DThomsen8 (talk) 22:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Kiwipete (talk) 00:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Done some more. Dickie (talk) 10:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)