Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany/Archive 1

Initial text
I seem to have a slight obsession with Bundesstraßen and Autobahnen and am adding or expanding articles on ones that happen to pass through my little corner of Germany, the Oberpfalz, especially around Amberg

Think I should just summarize the pertinent de:wikipedia articles?

Texmandie 17:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Need to create FOCUS (magazine)
Hi. We need an article for FOCUS (magazine), "the second largest German newsmagazine". We can just translate from http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus as desired. Thanks -- Writtenonsand 20:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Official sendoff
The project is now officially out of the box. For the next day or two, I see myself as (hopefully) finishing the updated, more thorough of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. Upon the conclusion of same, I shall be attacking the improvement and development of this project in earnest. Sorry for the delay, by the way. Two primary tasks seem to me to present themselves. One of these is the completion of the project page, probably with the inclusion of a gallery of pictures available for use, and the second is to have some work done on the existing Germany page so that it reaches at least good-article status. Anyway, thanks to everyone who has joined so far, and upon finally completing the directory early this week I hope to be working with you all, instead of simply dropping rare messages like this one. Thanks again to everybody who has signed on. Badbilltucker 17:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks to you for getting this started! I'm looking forward to your organizational suggestions. A gallery of very good Germany-related pictures (featured either here, at de: or on Commons:) can be found here, but that's probably not what you mean. Fully agree that Germany should be one of our first tasks, it is referenced really badly, several sections (esp Culture and Science) are just bad lists, and organisation of content between here and the subpages needs to be thought about. Kusma (討論) 17:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

DYKs and New pages
We should see how much overlap the pages of this project should have with those already existing at the portal. Kusma (討論) 18:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Overview of Germany project pages
This needs to be integrated into this project, and we'll need pages where we can list and sort missing pages like WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/German politicians. Kusma (討論) 18:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Inviting more people
I think it would be good to invite everyone who speaks German to this project; could any design a bot to do this?--CarabinieriTTaallkk 21:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I am a bit uncomfortable about massive spamming to talk pages of this kind (will be thousands of users). I think inviting individual users (anyone who makes smart contributions to a Germany-related article) plus a project template on every related page (which should be added by a bot or using AutoWikiBrowser once we have some kind of overview over the category tree) is preferable. Not everybody who speaks German is interested in Germany, and not everybody interested speaks German. Kusma (討論) 07:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Kusma above about not going out of our way to recruit members, although certainly people who have significantly added to any of the major articles (Berlin, Nuremberg, Hitler, Helmut Kohl, etc.), might be told about the new project. And it is my hope that the talk page banner will also include the assessment details about the page, hopefully making it more significant. Also, as a different option, we could try to work out a deal with at least one other project which would allow for multiple uses on the same banner. I'm thinking specifically about the geographical features (possibly including cities, provinces, states, etc.), and working out a deal with Wikipedia:WikiProject Geography to use their banner. It would also have the advantages of allowing other projects dealing with the city (let's say Berlin and the Prussia project) to use the same banner and thus save talk page space. Some banners, like that of Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia, are already set up in this way, and we could try to copy them. Luckily, the quality of the article will remain constant, although the importance of the article to any given project might vary. Anyway, I'd like to here what the rest of you think about this before we go ahead and create the banner. Badbilltucker 12:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * As long as our banner template is extensible and made to be compatible in the future, it should not matter too much and we should be able to start with just a reduced version of the Australian template. To avoid too much unnecessary future work, we should probably use bots to put down a banner that already says "unassessed on quality and importance scales". But I haven't worked on any project assessment talks yet, and would welcome input from anyone who can tell us which mistakes we should not make. I did not quite understand how the cooperation you mentioned works for the Australians - could you elaborate on that? We'll also need similar compatibility with what the WikiProject Biography does. Kusma (討論) 13:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should have a template for inviting people to the project. That should make invitations easier without looking too much like spam. Kusma (討論) 07:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no reservations about saying that that is a good idea and probably beyond my own personal ability. I've created the talk page assessment banner, and will be creating the assessment subpage tomorrow. If you can create the invitation templage, I would be more than gratified. Badbilltucker 23:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I am certainly interested in this project. I have a fairly intense interest in the history of Nazi Germany and feel that most of the major Nazi-related articles need a lot of work, being too full of sensationalism and trivia (see Joseph Goebbels for example - half the article deals with the last two days of his life). I have recently rewritten Horst Wessel, Joachim Fest, Action T4, Fritz Thyssen, Heinrich Müller Herschel Grynszpan, National Socialist German Workers Party and written German Resistance and Memorial to the German Resistance, among others. My next project is a rewrite of Holocaust, which is a dreadful mess. Adam 11:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Comments and questions
I get the distinct impression that Kusma may well be the better person to handle day-to-day details regarding the project than I am, if he wants to. Not that I do not intend to work on developing and maintaining the project, because I do. If he wants to become one of the official or unofficial leaders of the project, I would certainly welcome his input to whatever degree he feels comfortable. I do get the impression that Kusma may have better leadership qualities than I do, and in any event welcome his involvement in the project at whatever level he decides. Also, he indicates that he is a German mathematician, which means that he probably speaks German quite well. He might be able to answer this question, at least in part. I have noticed that the German wikipedia is one of the best other-language wikipedias out there, but that both the English and German wikipedias probably lack more articles on subjects more closely associated with the other language than they would like. I was wondering whether there might be a chance of proposing to the German wikipedia an "article swap" idea, in which we have some English-speakers verify and provide a rough translation of an English-language article that they would want, in exchange for their doing the same. We each could then provide the final edits in our own languages, with the approval of the original, and possibly expand both wikipedias better and faster. Do any of you think that you have a good enough command of German to be able to assist in something like this? Personally, I read German well, but am not that good at writing it. I am much better at English composition and polishing articles. Anyway, I welcome any responses from anyone. Badbilltucker 18:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised and somewhat flattered that you think I have any leadership qualities :-) I'm just being bold and hope that others are as well. I certainly do not want or need any formal leadership positions, as I believe those who do the actual work will be the de facto leaders anyway (that's how I became the main decision-maker at the portal). I am a native speaker of German and speak and write German better than English, but for some weird reasons translate German articles into English instead of the other way around. That means most of my contributions require copyediting, especially when I write about things like architecture where I have no idea what terms to use in English. Anyway, if I am interfering with any long-time plans you have (you seem to be setting up a pretty cool rating scheme and bot stuff that I don't know how to organize), just revert me. If there is anything you need help with, I'll help.
 * Article swaps like you propose are probably already happening on an informal level at WP:GTIE, which has a copyedit request section where I always forget to list my articles (but then most of my translations are partial rewrites in English anyway), and the corresponding page in dewiki. I am expecting that many new articles that we write in this project will be translations, and I will probably compile some lists of articles that I think should be translated - maybe these lists will attract more people than the ones I tried to maintain at the noticeboard. Kusma (討論) 20:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That was not intended in any way as being sarcastic or petulant. I just noticed that you do seem willing to make decisions quickly and well, which are both things I'm generally not that good at. As for the later point regarding the translation pages, I hadn't noticed them before. Thank you for the information. I will do what I can to copyedit and otherwise verify the articles there, as well as any you might think should be reviewed. You have my sincere thanks sincerely for all your valuable input to date. :) Badbilltucker 21:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't read it as sarcastic. Let's just get back to work and make this a great project! Kusma (討論) 21:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Project divisions
Do you think it really makes sense to have a list of those non-existing divisions on the project page? I think such divisions will develop rather spontaneously when a group of editors notices that they often edit articles on the same topic within the scope of this project.--CarabinieriTTaallkk 21:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess these are suggestions that some other project found useful. We don't need to follow them, but should perhaps consider whether that is a good organization scheme. If you are unhappy with it, be bold and implement a better scheme :-) Kusma (討論) 21:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Another question: the sidebar template has a link to a new article page, which is what we essentially already have at Portal:Germany/New article announcements. Wouldn't it make sense to simply move that page toWikiProject Germany/New articles?--CarabinieriTTaallkk 21:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I was thinking about that myself. From an abstract point of view, a subpage of the project is probably the better place for the announcement page. But I hope that the Portal and the Project will cooperate closely enough that it doesn't matter in which namespace a page is. Kusma (討論) 21:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have linked directly to the Portal page for the moment, mainly because I am too lazy to reorganize the archives. If you think the pages should be project subpages, be bold and move them, I will not complain. Kusma (討論) 22:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Many of the divisions are going to be created, probably by me, as soon as I get the time and understanding to make them. The assessment has already been basically started, collaborations are a standard (and probably required with as many articles in as poor shape as we have), peer review is a good way to improve articles, etc. I'll try to start the Outreach section with a regular bulletin as soon as I can. Basically, most of it will be done soon, I just want to finish this ferschlugginer list of portals I'm working on first. It is proving to take a bit longer than I expected, and my apologies to everyone for the delay. Badbilltucker 22:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

project template
I found quite facinating as it allowed to assign "ownership" to a sub project. Agathoclea 08:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * does the same thing. I will be trying to create such additions to the existing project banner shortly, with any luck today, as soon as I can determine which all related projects do not already have project banners. Badbilltucker 12:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Sidebar
Could we have the sidebar also list the numbers articles by quality? I would change it myself, but I don't know if that won't confuse the bot that updates the figures.

Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Assessment
Got fed up of the redlink so I stole WikiProject Germany/Assessment from the trainswiki project. Needs further adapting. Agathoclea 18:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help in any event:). I wasn't even sure how to do that much. I'll do the further adapting either today or tomorrow. Badbilltucker 18:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

AID
How about we create an article improvement deive? Kingjeff 21:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Austria
If anyone is willing to participate in WikiProject Austria Sign Up Here. Kingjeff 15:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Colditz Castle
Colditz Castle is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy (Talk) 17:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Project directory
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 17:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Redirect
Before you had to type in Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany to get to the main page. But I put a redirect at WikiProject Germany. So all you need to type in now is WikiProject Germany. Kingjeff 21:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Most cross-namespace redirects of this form have recently been deleted, so I also deleted this one before it becomes widely used. Please use the shortcut WP:GER instead (and WT:GER for this talk page). Kusma (討論) 11:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Importance assessment summary
Why are there no pages listed? I tried to assess some, and I think some of the categories are not empty. Do they have the wrong names for the bot? I remember renaming some categories from "Class" to "class" or vice versa, so if I messed things up, please correct my mistakes. Kusma (討論) 11:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Category:Germany articles by importance missing? Agathoclea 12:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Should be working now. I noticed that there are some in each category but "Mid" importance, in the probably misnamed Category:WikiProject Germany articles by importance. Have moved all subcategories to Category:Germany articles by importance. Just remeber to type "class" with a small "c", importance with a small "i", and the first letter after the "=" in upper case, and everything should work fine. If not, let me know below. Badbilltucker 14:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

NA flag in Project banner
Seems to still keep the articles in Category:Unassessed Germany articles instead of Category:Non-article Germany pages Agathoclea 12:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Please check for wrong umlauts
As sometimes "ae", "oe", "ue" are substitued for "ä", "ö", "ü", some wellmeaning but illinformed editors (not only in Wikipedia) substitute umlauts for "ae", "oe" and "ue" in German names without further checking this case.

This is wrong. There are German names with indeed use "ae", "oe" and "ue"! Please check with a German language source, de.wikipedia being the easiest (but not always correct) option.

It's not very common, but it was rather embarrassing to see Nobel prize winner Maria Goeppert-Mayer under the wrong Maria Göppert-Mayer. I'm most likely only touching physicists' biographies but I've had seen abother case in the past: Ernst Stueckelberg, not Ernst Stückelberg.

Perhaps a bot-owner can check all biographies with umlaut in the name against their de: counterpart.

Pjacobi 19:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have asked Tawker for advise on which bot could do that, but have had no reply as yet. Agathoclea 17:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Whenever you check for umlauts, please also check for correct category sort keys and existence of umlautless redirects. Kusma (討論) 09:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think this is within the scope of a typical bot, since we probably don't want to do any automated editing here. We may not even want to use a bot or scan the wiki; just download the list of titles for both wikis and compare them, and use a bot to check for redirects; or get a list on en, and use a bot to check for the article on de. -Steve Sanbeg 18:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hope this is a suitable place to ask: Is there a policy on the use of "ß"? See my comments at Talk:Großer Zapfenstreich --Boson 23:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, there's no policy. It's one of the most contentious issues on article naming at Wikipedia. Generally, if an article does have ß in the title, like Großer Zapfenstreich, then there should also be a redirect from Grosser Zapfenstreich, and the template foreignchar should be used at the top to provide a link to the article ß for the edification of those unfamiliar with the character. —Angr 05:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I see you've sorted that out. Thanks!--Boson 06:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Banner placement
All of the existing articles in the Category:Berlin, Category:Dresden, Category:Düsseldorf, Category:Erfurt, and Category:Hamburg have the project banner placed on them. Badbilltucker 00:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Banner question
Do you all think that individuals who have played for a German football (soccer) team who were born or raised in a different country should be counted as being included in the scope of the project or not? Badbilltucker 16:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I do. People who are interested in Germany are more likely to know something about them, than people interested in the country they were born in.--CarabinieriTTaallkk 08:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Assessment Coordinators
It is proposed at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment, that any project doing assessments have at least one coordinator who would perform a complete assessment on each page within the scope of the project every three months. Any volunteers? Badbilltucker 16:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * define "each" page. Agathoclea 21:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * From what I gather from the referenced page, it is supposed to include every page tagged with the banner. Which would amount to several thousand pages. That's why I'm thinking more than one coordinator might be a good idea. Badbilltucker 22:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * one coordinator - many assessors I'd rather say. Agathoclea 22:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably would work best that way. Certainly, everybody is free to assess an article any time that they encounter it. The coordinators job would just be to see that they all do get assessed. That wouldn't necessarily mean doing anything more than seeing that the page hasn't been modified since the last assessment, but it would be the only way to determine which articles have been improved, and which may have been improved enough to be considered as either a good or featured article. Yeah, at this point, considering that not all of them have even been assessed once, one coordinator would probably work best. We might add a few more as the number of articles proliferates. But, when that happens, I note several of the largest projects, like WikiProject Military history, do have more than one coordinator. Badbilltucker 22:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd certainly help out Agathoclea 22:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Berlin Importance
The Berlin article is rated Top Importance but doesn´t say so in the Banner. Any comments how to improve that? all the best Lear 21 18:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The banner is specifically constructed that way. Really, the importance ranking is more or less solely of interest to the members of the project, and they can find it in the category or in categories on the bottom of an individual page. And some people figured out a while ago that individual pages will have different levels of importance to different projects, and that the conflicting importance levels might confuse some people. With the banners constructed with the importance rankings invisible, it makes for a slightly less cluttered and more coherent talk page. Badbilltucker 19:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)