Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 4

Aritcles for Deletion- 2011 BMW PGA Championship
You can find the page here.. The reasons- Isn't a Major Championship, or the small group of other events where a yearly tournament merits its own article...William 17:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Articles for deletion- 2010 Players Championship
You can find the discussion here...William 19:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Major championships summary tables
The current way the major championships summary tables are displayed is not that easy to read - all the "DNP"s can make it difficult to pick out the results. It would be better to leave those cells (almost) blank, e.g.:

On the right, the results stand out much more easily. Thoughts? 81.142.107.230 (talk) 09:46, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Possibly, although the tables also tend to distinguish between "did not play" and "tournament not held" and "tournament not founded", which would be lost. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

NCAA Golf and the America Sky Men's Golf Conference
I was trying to clean several NCAA athletic conference pages recently. July 1 was the day that numerous schools changed their conference affiliation, so I've been one of many folks updating pages. I came across the Great West Conference, which has only a few full members and a few more associate members.

Anyway, I went to the Great West Conference website to get some information. When I was there, I found that the page on men's golf replaces the "Great West" logo with the "America Sky Men's Golf Conference" logo (something I'd never heard of before). As it turns out, according to this article from September 2010, "The America Sky Conference was formed in the summer of 2007 by schools in the America East (Binghamton, Hartford) and Big Sky (Northern Colorado, Sacramento State, Weber State) conferences, as well as then-independents Texas-Pan American and Utah Valley. Last summer, Chicago State, Houston Baptist, North Dakota, and South Dakota came from the Great West Conference."

What I'd like to know (if anyone happens to know): is America Sky Conference an actual separate athletic conference that has its own management? Is it run jointly by the America East, Big Sky and Great West conferences, or perhaps managed by one of them? Its online home is apparently on the Great West site, but they were the last to join, so I really don't know if they're "in charge" or not. The List of NCAA conferences page does not mention it. There's no America Sky Men's Golf Conference page on Wikipedia either.

I don't want to add it to the Great West page on Wikipedia if they're not in charge of it; if that's the case, I think it should be a separate page. I figured if anyone on Wikipedia knows about it, they might be here. I'd think that if this conference has a separate organizational structure of some kind, it should have its own Wikipedia page, and if it's administered by another conference (presumably the Great West, since it's on their website) then it should have a mention on that page.

Does anyone know anything about this golf conference? Mdak06 (talk) 22:56, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Scoring inaccuracies in articles on golf tournaments and championships
Wikipedia includes an excellent history of golf championships, and their winners. I'm pretty sure that there are inaccuracies in the score relative to par though. For example - the 1954, 1961, 1962 and 1968 Open Championships show the winners being -5, -4, -12 and +1 respectively. I think the correct numbers are -9, -8, -16 and -3 respectively. The par score at Birkdale, Troon and Carnoustie has changed over the years, so understandable how the numbers could be wrong. However I have no means of confirming that, other than my memory. The same may be true for other major championship results listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by George1507 (talk • contribs) 19:53, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've done lots of work on the Open articles and through it I know that the par scores of the courses have changed. For instance-


 * Royal Birkdale played as a par 73 in 1954. The 1954 article does show the winner at -9 not -5 as you say.


 * Carnoustie played as a par 72 in 1968.


 * Royal Troon played as a par 72 in 1962


 * Royal Birkdale in 1961 is tricky because the article I have contradicts itself.(saying par 72 but then saying Palmer finished at par for 72 holes with a score of 284) I'll have to dig a little harder but for now I have to go....William 21:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I found a source. Birkdale played as a par 72 in 1961....William 22:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Note- In general I prefer sources written when a tournament was played, not ones written many years later. That's because the pro golf Tours are full of inaccuracies. Other sources copy off the tours, and errors happen in the copying process. On the other hand Google news archive isn't hard to use once you learn a few tricks. Arnold Palmer Birkdale you get many stories, but then you narrow it down to those written in 1961 and you get the information you're looking for....William 22:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Name Conflict
Compare 2011 Women's British Open and 2012 Women's British Open. Golf has become Squash. Nigej 20:32, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There isn't a conflict now. I moved the Squash Championship....William 21:08, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

WP Golf in the Signpost
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Golf for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 16:56, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Ian Finnis
Hello, would anyone be able to tell me if Ian Finnis is notable enough for an article? I see from N:SPORTS that the criteria for golfers is more complicated than simple professionalism. Finnis is engaged to England and GB goalkeeper Rachel Brown. Despite knowing nothing about golf I'd quite like to make an article, but not if it will get deleted. Thanks, Clavdia chauchat (talk) 15:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Five or 10?
Why does the List of golfers with most PGA Tour wins go all the way down to golfers with five wins when the corresponding lists for LPGA and Champions Tours stop at 10? I think they should be consistent....William 20:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Other lists go to various values: Asian Tour - 5; European Tour - 8; Japan Golf Tour - 10; PGA Tour of Australasia - 7; Sunshine Tour - 5; Web.com Tour - 4; Challenge Tour - 4. I don't think there is a strong need for uniformity; tours have been in existence for differing lengths of time and sourcing is variable as well. Tewapack (talk) 21:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Bandon Dunes Golf Resort's new course "Bandon Preserve"
The article for Bandon Dunes Golf Resort doesn't list the new course. It is a 13 hole par 3 course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.165.26 (talk) 02:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Fred Robson: Welsh or English?
User:Topcardi has changed Fred Robson in the 1927, 1929 and 1931 Ryder Cup pages so that he is now Welsh not English. Other pages: e.g. 1927 Open Championship, 1928 Open Championship, etc still have him as English.

It seems certain that he was born (25 April 1885) Frederick Robson in Shotton, Flintshire in Wales. Confirmed from various sources: 1901 census, 1911 census etc. The question is: does that make him Welsh? Legally there's no such nationality as Welsh or English, we're all British. Interestingly the BBC put on a program at the time of the 2010 Ryder Cup at Celtic Manor (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wales/posts/welsh_ryder_cup_players) which didn't include Fred Robson amongst the Welsh Ryder Cup golfers. Perhaps just an oversight.Nigej 10:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Also seems he played for England. eg played for England professionals v Scotland 18 June 1910.Nigej 13:33, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Also: "Fred Robson, who was chosen by both the English and Scottish Selection Committees, was yesterday elected (sic) to play for England. An objection was raised by the Scottish Committee, but it was eventually agreed that he should be allowed to play for England, and that the question of his nationality should be decided at the annual general meeting of the Professional Golfers' Association on Monday." The Times 5 June 1909. Presumably, given that he played for England in 1910, it was decided he was English. Nigej 13:45, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

"He also represented England against Scotland at the same venue. Born on Welsh soil to a Scottish father and English mother, he was triply qualified and needed to choose which nation to represent. He preferred to play for the country where his golf was learned." (http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/u/cms/TTG_95_2010December.pdf#page=10) seems to be conclusive. Nigej 13:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC) .
 * If the consensus is to keep him as English then I have no objection but I would like to point a few things out. The www.golfcollectors.co.uk article appears to be nonsense. Censuses clearly show no Scottish connection - his father was English and his mother and step-father Welsh. If he has no Scottish connection then it appears the only claim Scotland would have on him would be that, since he was neither Scottish or English, then he would be free to represent either - remember this was a time when the only professional team match played was the England-Scotland match. Another point to remember is that, in those days, many sports organisations considered Wales as a region of England rather than an independent nation so for a Welshman to play for England would be a natural progression and not a declaration of nationality.Topcardi (talk) 17:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree. Census clearly says father was English. Appears father's parent were English too. Agree with everything else you say too. Strange that Scotland picked him though. To me, calling him Welsh smacks a little of rewriting history. Nigej 18:20, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Mission Hills
Hi. I'm confused. Mission Hills Haikou has held an annual event for the past 3 yrs. The news says this latest one is the third, but they all have different names. I don't get it. What are they called? Please advise/edit. Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Disability golf classification → Blind golf classification
This has been proposed at talk:Disability golf classification -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 06:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * There is an alternative proposal covering several sports, including golf, here. --Stfg (talk) 15:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Web.com Tour Logo updates
Brought to my attention that the Web.com Tour page still shows the former Nationwide Tour logo. Unsure of how to change the logo, but it needs to be updated to the current iteration. (http://www.pgatour.com/.element/img/5.0/global/nav/web_com_logo.png)

Thanks Ltbeyer (talk) 14:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

RfC on the use of flag icons for sportspeople
An RfC discussion about the MOS:FLAG restriction on the use of flag icons for sportspeople has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. We invite all interested participants to provide their opinion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:39, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

List of WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship golfers
I have created a page (User:Nigej/List of WGC-Matchplay golfers) containing a list of those who have played in the WGC-Matchplay and giving their performances year by year. I am proposing to copy it to List of WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship golfers and create a link to it from the WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship page.

While being of interest on its own merit, it might also prove useful to those creating World Golf Championships/Results timeline tables (e.g. Hunter Mahan) in individual player pages.

I would appreciate any comments. Nigej 09:16, 27 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I think this would be a helpful addition. I'd add "Player" or "Name" for a first column header and change "P" to "M" for the fourth column to match the legend text. I'd consider removing the links to each top-10 finish and linking the header to each year - links on a colored background are hard to see and you'd be replacing 16 links with one for each year. Tewapack (talk) 21:05, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Portal:Sports is up for featured portal consideration
This is a courtesy message to inform the members of this project that I have nominated Portal:Sports for featured portal status. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Sports. The featured portal criteria are at Featured portal criteria. Please feel free to weigh in.  S ven M anguard  Wha?  18:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Golf articles need additional citations for verification
I have been working on adding citations for verification for John Daly and Greg Norman articles. Both articles had multiple paragraphs with no citations for verifications. Since these articles are for living persons, these articles need to follow BLP requirements. I randomly checked a few other golf related articles, and found the same problem. I recommend a full review of golf related articles, and any statements which cannot be verified with a reference should be removed to avoid any potential problems. Mistercontributer (talk) 23:05, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Bad drop
I wanted to add an explanatory wikilink to this edit on a news page; I know no details of the rules of golf and guessed that some readers wouldn't either. But the term "drop" is not listed in the Drop disambiguation page, nor in Glossary of golf. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:01, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

New sports related IRC channel.
There is now an WP:IRC channel for collaboration between editors in various sports WikiProjects. It's located at. Thanks Secret account 03:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

1949 PGA
Some corrections need to be made to this article. Snead defeated Palmer 3&2, not 2&1. Hermitage Country Club is now located in Manakin-Sabot, but in 1949 it was in the Lakeside area of Henrico County. The course where the PGA was played is now a public course called Belmont Golf Course, operated by Henrico County. http://www.co.henrico.va.us/rec/belmont-golf-course/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.4.106.163 (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Corrected both. Tewapack (talk) 18:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Mirasol Country Club - Honda Classic
These are two entirely separate subjects. The Honda Classic (golf tournament) was at one time hosted at the Mirasol Country Club. It is no longer the case and the tournament is now housed at PGA National74.108.164.7 (talk) 18:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC).

Ryder Cup Matches on television template
There is a deletion discussion on it taking place here if anyone would like to take part in the debate....William 11:21, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Masters Tournaments on television template is also up for deletion....William 11:27, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

US Open Golf Championships on television template is also up for deletion....William 14:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Golf course notability
I notice the project page indicates that there is/was a discussion on notability guidelines for golf coures to be found here on the talk page. Has it been completed and archived away somewhere? WhaleyTim (talk) 20:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * My main reason for posting this has been the number of courses that have been added to the Links article. Now, I guess you could probably spend the best part of a winter discussing what is or is not a links course without coming to a conclusion. Anyway, there is a huge number of redlinked golf courses in the article, which got me thinking about what makes a golf course notable. I moseyed over here to see if anyone had anything to say about it, posted the question above, and being an impatient so-and-so decided to post some of my thoughts having not got a reply within a few hours. If this has already been done to death forgive me.


 * Wikipedia normal rules of notability of course apply: ”Significant coverage from reliable sources independent of the subject”.


 * I suggest that the following should be discounted as sources indicating notability:


 * Club websites or club sponsored publications (obviously)
 * Entries in gazetteers of courses.
 * Coverage in trade publications.
 * Coverage in tourist guides.
 * Publication of results of club competitions, reports of social events, legal or administrative reporting in local or regional publications etc.
 * Coverage of the course for non-golfing reasons.


 * I suggest that inherent notability within the context of golf would apply to courses that have:


 * Been listed as one of the top courses in the world by a reputable golf publication.
 * Been listed as one of the top courses in a continent by a reputable golf publication.
 * Hosted a men’s or women’s major championship.
 * Hosted a professional tournament the results of which have been used to calculate men’s or women’s world rankings.
 * Hosted the Ryder or World Cup competitions.
 * Hosted the Curtis or Walker Cup Cup competitions.
 * Hosted a national men’s or women’s open, professional or amateur championship.
 * Hosted an elite men’s or women’s amateur event.


 * One could argue that apart from the first two categories the courses inherit their notability from the events that they have hosted, rather than having notability themselves. However, by hosting one of the listed events it is almost certain that some amount of coverage in the specialist golf, national or international press about the course itself will be generated. From the perspective of a golfer, rather than a Wikilawyer I would be interested in finding more about such courses on Wikipedia, but then that argument probably falls foul of some "just because you think it is interesting does not matter" clause somewhere.


 * The normal rules of Wikipedia notability will apply to courses that may be notable for historical reasons but do not fall into the above categories. If they are genuinely historically notable they will have significant coverage in reputable golf publications.


 * I am aware that my suggestions reflect my perspective as an Anglo-Scottish golfer who spends some part of his time in the USA and is not beyond criticism. I would welcome further discussion of the subject, including what can be considered a “reputable golf publication”.


 * Off tomorrow to the Cavvie ( http://www.cavendishgolfclub.com/ ) with my new Pings. Wish me luck.


 * WhaleyTim (talk) 01:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Help please
I have next-to-no knowledge about golf, so could someone come and clean up David A. Russell (golfer), which I just wrote? Thanks. :) Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 19:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Tewapack (talk) 03:06, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks :) I wrote that to stop an edit-war on another article from starting, in a bit of a rush, so I'm glad you've cleaned it up. :) Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 08:02, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Going to St Andrews to cover Women's British Open - open to photo requests
Hi,

this year I am going to St Andrews to again take some photos during Women's British Open. Just as two years ago I have acquired media pass to I'll be on the grounds with a camera during the actual competition as well. Should you have any special requests (I remember one, a bit too late though, regarding tv commentator two years ago) please drop me a message. Then, above that, we can possibly arrange some sort of mobile-text hotline while I'll be on the course.

Best, Wojtek (Wmigda (talk) 21:25, 15 July 2013 (UTC))

Zenos Frudakis Jack Nicklaus Louisville.jpg
image:Zenos Frudakis Jack Nicklaus Louisville.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 03:15, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Francis Scheid
The new article on Francis Scheid, an expert on golf handicapping, does not have enough other articles linking to it. Michael Hardy (talk) 01:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The end of Google News archive searches?
When either starting news articles, or attempting to improve existing ones, I have used Google News archive countless times. Google News Archive was merged into Google News over two years ago but you could still search it archives. That may have ended. Since yesterday when trying to do a archive via a archive search page I had long ago saved, I have been receiving 'The search option you have selected is currently unavailable'. Any links to archived articles still work. This for an example. However if you try to do a archive search from that page, again you are stymied. I don't see a way to do an archive search from Google News main page either. It appears Google News archive searches are at an end. With it the job of working on anything that is dated from 15 or more years ago has become much harder....William 15:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

San Diego sports curse
has been nominated for deletion. Come on over and participate in the discussion....William 15:44, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Eisenhower Tree - Request for editors
I created Eisenhower Tree. Since its death has been prominent in the news, a user tried to add the Eisenhower Tree to the Deaths in 2014 list. But with its own article, it was removed. I know next to nothing about golf, but I suspect the article's subject's notability may be challenged. Any additional information someone on this project could add would be greatly appreciated. Cheers. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:34, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * As expected, it was immediately nominated for deletion. Feel free to comment on that nomination here: Articles_for_deletion/Eisenhower_Tree EvergreenFir (talk) 05:42, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Category:Golf clubs and courses
Hi

I wonder why the "category: golf clubs and golf courses" are not separately as in the dutch wikipedia? It is the easiest way to distinguish the two. Some golf courses are not only managed by the golf clubs, but also by the country clubs. By definition, the golf clubs are not country clubs. Also some courses are not managed by both clubs.

I have in recent months on the dutch wikipedia three categories created: "Golf courses by country", "Golf Clubs by country" and "Country clubs by country" because the categories were so created at Wikimedia Commons. It is so handy for the Wikidata. --87lieven (talk) 18:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Rolling Green Country Club
Dear golfers: This article has just been moved by its creator out of Afc without passing a review. Perhaps someone here who knows about golf articles can check it for notability and needed improvements. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

1964 Jaycee Junior Golf Results in Saint Paul, Minnesota
Does anyone know where to get a list of the top 10 finishers in the 1964 Jaycee Junior Golf event held in Saint Paul, Minnesota? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.53.102 (talk) 21:29, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Template:Infobox team golf tournament
Following the discussion (Templates for discussion/Log/2014 March 22) I have created a template (Template:Infobox team golf tournament) to replace 5 existing templates (Template:Infobox Ryder Cup, Template:Infobox Presidents Cup, Template:Infobox Seve Trophy, Template:Infobox Solheim Cup, Template:Infobox Walker Cup). Broadly speaking the infobox is intended to look the same as previously. The flags for GB&I have been placed above each other (as was done for the Walker Cup) and not side by side (as was previously the case for Ryder Cup and Seve Trophy).

I have changed a few of the pages to use the new template: 1927 Ryder Cup, 1973 Ryder Cup, 2011 Walker Cup, 2009 Solheim Cup, 2007 Presidents Cup, 2005 Seve Trophy. If there are no comments I shall change the other pages in the near future. Nigej (talk) 18:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Template:Infobox individual golf tournament extension
One of the minor irritations of individual golf tournament pages (eg 2014 Masters Tournament) is that navigation to the previous year and next year of the event is surprisingly difficult. eg to navigate to the 2013 event from 2014 Masters Tournament involves scrolling to the bottom, showing Template:Masters Tournaments and then clicking on 2013.

I have added Previous/Next options to Template:Infobox individual golf tournament to provide easier navigation to the previous and next year of the event. Template:Infobox individual golf tournament/testcases shows what it looks like with these extensions (ignore the fact that there are two version side-by-side). The top version is a basic example, the second version (below) shows an example pre-tournament (with the winner not known), the third example shows the template when previous and next are not used (which is identical to the previous version).

We have 561 "transclusions" of this template at the moment and they have to be modified individually to use previous/next. Automating it (like Template:Infobox team golf tournament) would be difficult since there are a large number of events that use it and events change their names sometimes (eg 2000 WGC-Andersen Consulting Match Play Championship was followed by 2001 WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship).

I would gladly add these if people though it was useful. Nigej (talk) 15:19, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a welcome addition. I will help in adding prev/next where needed. I count 19 separate tournaments that use these infoboxes and there are more that could use them (some of the women's majors have articles but not infoboxes). Tewapack (talk) 15:59, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, I make it 19 too: BMW PGA Championship (4), Dunhill Cup (13) + Alfred Dunhill Cup (3), Evian Championship (2), HSBC World Match Play Championship (2) + Volvo World Match Play Championship (5), Nabisco Dinah Shore (4) + Kraft Nabisco Championship (6), LPGA Championship (6), Masters Tournament (78), NCAA Division I Men's Golf Championship (10), Open Championship (92), PGA Championship (96), Players Championship (13), U.S. Open (golf) (114), U.S. Women's Open Golf Championship (32), WGC-Andersen Consulting Match Play Championship (2) + WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship (14), WGC-American Express Championship (7) + WGC-CA Championship (4) + WGC-Cadillac Championship (4), WGC-NEC Invitational (7) + WGC-Bridgestone Invitational (9), WGC-HSBC Champions (6), World Cup of Golf (2) + WGC-World Cup (7) + World Cup (men's golf) (4) + World Cup of Golf (1), Women's British Open (14). Nigej (talk) 18:46, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Template:Golf Major Championships master change
I have updated Template:Golf Major Championships master to only include majors that were actually played. You might need to WP:PURGE to get the new version. eg add "?action=purge" to your address bar. See eg end of 1942 Masters Tournament, show "1942 Men's Major Golf Championships" and you should have just Masters + PGA. Nigej (talk) 10:30, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Erroneous Link
- 1899 Winner Ruth Underhill link is to Ruth Underhill the anthropologist (born in 1883). That article makes no mention of a golfing career. No page exists for Ruth Underhill the golfer. 72.80.108.149 (talk) 16:46, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I have found a reference to Ruth Underhill the golfer: "Miss Underhill later became Mrs. Harold T. White", so she is obviously a different person. I have changed United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship accordingly. Nigej (talk) 17:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

3 of my new articles nominated for deletion!
Please take a look at:
 * 1. Nefyn & District Golf Club - already deleted! here. This is one of the finest in Wales!] Please help! Also:
 * 2. Caerphilly Golf Club
 * 3. Llanwern Golf Club

Thanks Wici Rhuthun 1 (talk) 11:54, 11 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I suppose the issue here is one of "notability". Does every golf course deserve a Wikipedia article? To a non-golfer it might seem that having a page is like advertising a commercial organisation. Why not have a page for every golf shop too, or snooker club? It's complicated by the fact that WP:GOLF is now "semi-active" and hasn't come up with a definitive list. see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 4 for one such list. also see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 1 for an old discussion. Also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 2. Similar issues come up with regards to the notability of golfers. Nigej (talk) 12:43, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Virginia Beach Open (PGA Tour)
Dear

Recently I created the article Virginia Beach Open on the Dutch wikipedia and the list of winners is complete. See Virgina Beach Open on Dutch Wiki and for the WikiData: Q15999259. --87lieven (talk) 08:55, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It's for the red link on Template:Former PGA Tour Events. --87lieven (talk) 13:10, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Flag usage on sports articles
A discussion has begun to outline usage of flags on sports articles and to review their usage. Sports articles have long diverged from what is stated in the manual of style. Please comment on the proposals and add suggestions by contributing at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. Thanks. SFB 13:59, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Golf At Wikimania 2014
Are you looking to recruit more contributors to your project? We are offering to design and print physical paper leaflets to be distributed at Wikimania 2014 for all projects that apply. For more information, click the link below. Project leaflets Adikhajuria (talk) 15:16, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Kids golf
All the Lucy Li hype has got me wondering what www.uskidsgolf.com/ is all about. Also, have people seen The Short Game?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Country flags
Are we now removing country flags from golf player infoboxes? As just now here? I know there was discussion in the past w/regard to the MOS on flags, and how it applied (or did not apply) to golf/tennis/and certain other sports (generally, where the media and official url reflect flags), but can't seem to find the discussion.

Whatever we do, I expect we should apply our approach uniformly to all golfers, unless there is a good reason not to. --Epeefleche (talk) 03:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Seems to be some over-enthusiastic editor who's not aware of the consensus about these flags in the Golf project. These edits happen every now and then and cause a little unnecessary work and occasionally a brief discussion here. After a day or two everything goes quiet and we carry on as usual. Tewapack's not had time to revert the edits in question but he doubtless will, unless I do first. Nigej (talk) 06:28, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * This issue was the reason for my proposal on Wiki-wide flag usage on sports articles (see User:Sillyfolkboy/Resources/MOS:SportsFlag and notification above). This proposal did not achieve the required support outside of the sports topic area, so sports flag usage (as in this case) remains outside of Wikipedia's brodaer style guidelines and continues to be the subject of edit wars. If you think my proposal is a good idea, then perhaps you could support me in a move to make this guideline part of WikiProject Sports and applicable to all its descendant projects? SFB 16:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. I support using flags in infoboxes -- as a matter of common sense, as well as for the reasons that those official sports urls use flags -- in sports where the official sport url uses flags.  Examples would be golf and tennis; sports where we already typically reflect such flags in infoboxes as a matter of consensus practice and common sense. Epeefleche (talk) 18:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * That's close to one of the disputed uses I list in the proposal. I find infoboxes are a bit problematic, as the fields just say "nationality" not "sports nationality", or "national sports team" etc. On that basis, why should that field have a flag on David Lipsky (golfer), but not on David Lipsky? I think we need to use flags only in a context which directly corresponds to some form of sports national representation (like at 2012 Asian Tour), and not nationality more generally (where the flag is not so important). SFB 20:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Because we follow the RSs. The official highest-level golf and tennis RSs follow this practice. In contrast, there is no such practice w/regard to the author David Lipsky.  There is rationale for the practice in sports, which we could discuss at length (including, in certain sports such as tennis, that it relates to country on whose behalf the athlete can participate in the Olympics).  But the shortest answer is that it is a good practice to follow the RSs, which in all their deep and studied wisdom set the standard for us in areas ranging from "what is notable on wp" to "what title will I give a wp article on subject x, where different titles are used". We don't waste too much time worrying how the RSs got to where they got; we simply follow them. Epeefleche (talk) 20:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

As of yet, I'm not a part of this project (Although I may like to be), but, just the same, would it be alright if I have a view on this topic? Johnsmith2116 (talk) 19:02, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to contribute, as we are all free to share our opinions and expect people to judge them on their merits, not some perceived social standing. I'm sure the golf project would be more than happy to have you as well – the only requirement is a desire to help out in the topic area! SFB 20:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Sillyfolkboy. Well, I do a little editing in the golf portions of Wikipedia, and the flags are used all the time. I think the flag icons add a nice visual as a representation of where the players are from. The tour pages, and the individual golfer pages, all use the flags. But also they are common in the tennis pages, auto racing, Olympics, World Cup, and countless other areas of entertainment, sports and otherwise. I myself and several others use them quite often. In fact, in the next few hours, I'll be using them more as scores continue to come in for several different events. I'd like to see the flags stay. Thank you. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 20:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Golf At Wikimania 2014 (updated version)
Please note: This is an updated version of a previous article that I made. Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost The deadline for submissions is 1st July 2014 For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to: Project leaflets Adikhajuria (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 25/06
User:Ocfootballknut/sandbox/Template:PGA Section Championships. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 22:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Importance of Specific Individual Tournaments
I'm referring here to pages like: 2014 Masters Tournament. These are mostly Men's Major Championships (431 - ignoring 2015 events), (individual) WGC events (53) and Women's Major Championships (265) with a few others. Nearly all these have importance=low but a small number of men's majors have importance=mid:


 * Masters Tournament: 1934, 1935, 1949, 1965, 1968, 1979, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1997, 2001
 * Open Championship: 1930, 1931, 1977
 * PGA Championship: 1958, 1991, 1999
 * U.S. Open (golf): 1913, 1960, 1970, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1990, 1992

This seems a pretty random selection to me. I have a few suggestions:


 * 1. Change them all to importance=low
 * 2. Change all men's majors to importance=mid
 * 3. Produce a proper list of importance=mid pages (probably limited to Men's majors)

There are similar issues for Specific Team Tournaments like: 2014 Ryder Cup. Currently these are all importance=low but, given the importance of the Ryder Cup relative to the others (even the Presidents Cup), it's tempting to have importance=mid for all the Ryder Cup matches (or perhaps a selection of them).

Nigej (talk) 09:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Some of these make sense to be mid (or higher) importance: Masters 1934 - first Masters, 1935 - "shot heard round the world", 1965 - Nicklaus record score, 1968 - de Vicenzo scorecard fiasco, 1986 - Nicklaus final major win, 1997 - Tiger's record win, 2001 - completion of "Tiger slam"; U.S. Open: 1913 - Ouimet's masterpiece, 1960 - Palmer, Nicklaus duel, 1973 - Miller's final round 63, (1930, 2000, and 2008 should be mid too); Open: 1930 - Jones slam, 1977 - "duel in the sun". A comment could be added to the talk page as to why the page should be mid instead of low. Tewapack (talk) 15:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

How do I join?
I've wondered how I can be a part of this. Is there a way I can join? Johnsmith2116 (talk) 01:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Given that the project is "semi-active" I don't think there's much of a concept of "joining" at the moment. Just join in. Also make sure you keep Tewapack happy as he's the main man. I'm planning on changing WikiProject Golf/Members in the next day or two. Keep an eye on it. Nigej (talk) 08:32, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay thanks, but how do I be a part of it to get my username in that list on the main page and be a part of this, and to receive updates? Johnsmith2116 (talk) 11:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You can now you name to the Members list at WikiProject Golf. This is currently a list of 1 (me), if you have the old long list try adding ?action=purge to the url (eg changing it to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Golf?action=purge or similar). The WikiProject Golf page has been largely unused for several years. I am attempting to clear it out, perhaps encouraging more use. Updates should be documented there but that largely depends on editors using it (which they haven't been). Nigej (talk) 13:32, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay I added my username here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Golf/Members, but it didn't double on to the main project page the way that yours did when you added yours. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 16:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Try the ?action=purge suggested above. Nigej (talk) 16:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It's there now. Thanks. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 18:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Core Articles
I have made a number of changes to Wikipedia:WikiProject Golf/Core Articles. Many of these were because it has got out of sync with Category:Top-importance_Golf_articles. I have reduced a number of articles to importance=high which seems an underpopulated level. Nigej (talk) 08:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Under "core articles", perhaps there should be inclusion for: WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship WGC-Cadillac Championship WGC-Bridgestone Invitational WGC-HSBC_Champions The_Players_Championship Volvo_World_Match_Play_Championship BMW PGA Championship


 * These events are high-profile and have their own year-to-year articles. Just a suggestion. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 13:18, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The Women's Majors are not in either. Personally I'm of the view that the Men's Majors are core but the others that we have year-to-year articles for are a step below. Nigej (talk) 16:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Tournament articles: runners-up
I propose that runners-up be listed, whenever possible, in the Winners table, as seen here. Most tournaments have winner tables like this, so it shouldn't be too hard to add. However, some tournaments have nothing more than just a list of winners (example), so it might be harder to add to those. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  00:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure there's no policy not to include runners-up, it's just that it's not been done in any consistent way. They are lacking even for the Majors, eg Masters Tournament (see http://www.golftoday.co.uk/tours/majors/The_Masters.html for an on-line list - would need checking). I suppose one issue is what to do about multiple runners-up. The most in a Major is, I think, 4 (eg 1920 U.S. Open (golf)). Do we put them on separate lines or on one line (separated by commas? like Tiger Woods). What we need is for someone to create a sort of "master" version of the Winners table, agreed here. Then we can hopefully (over time) propagate that style to other tournaments. Nigej (talk) 06:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

"comments" parameter in the WikiProject Golf template
I have added a "comments" parameter to the WikiProject Golf template. See Talk:1860 Open Championship as an example of its use. This is to cover the suggestion above (Importance of Specific Individual Tournaments) that Tournaments with an importance other than the normal one expected (generally "low") need to have some explanation. I intend to create my own list of mid-importance Majors in the next couple of weeks and then I'll report back here and you can shoot it down in flames. You can always find a list of articles using the comments parameter here: Category:Golf articles with comments. I don't foresee any great use of this comments feature, seems a waste of time to use is too much when there's so many more useful things to do here. Nigej (talk) 07:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Guidelines for Specific individual tournament pages
I have added some guidelines here WikiProject_Golf/Assessment for pages like 2014 Masters Tournament. This is meant to discourage the creation of pages for less important events, to indicate the pages that are currently missing and to provide some basis for the assessment of these pages. These seems to be some interest in these pages, with regular editing by a number of editors. Team events will be next. Nigej (talk) 13:47, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Help at Draft:Sequoyah Country Club
Informed editors requested to help review Draft:Sequoyah Country Club. Is this club notable? What features does the draft need to improve? Feel free to add written comments directly to the top, or use AFC tools to "approve" the draft if you think it's ready to publish. Thanks! MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

FedEx Cup articles
(moved from preceding section)

On an unrelated note, I intend to expand the season-by-season FedEx Cup articles, perhaps to include a list of qualifiers. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  00:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, these need improving. They must seem mind-boggling to the uninitiated. I've added an infobox to 2013 FedEx Cup Playoffs as a suggestion. Doesn't exactly find the template but good enough perhaps and gives a slightly more professional look I think. Nigej (talk) 06:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I have created a prototype of what I'd like to add to every year's FedEx Cup Playoffs articles. The 2013 table is not finished, but you get the idea. What does everyone think? pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  18:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Consider using the nts and ntsh templates in the "finish" columns. eg (go into edit mode to see these):  CUT – (for blank entries, comes later than the numbers, so 1 is top when sorted). Gives great results although quite a bit of effort to set up. see: User:Nigej/List of WGC-Champions golfers although I never got round to finishing these. Hope this makes sense. I wouldn't consider doing all this manually. I'm very useful with the vim editor and can do global changes quite easily if you show the style required. Nigej (talk) Have changed 2013 to use sortname. Needs checking. Nigej (talk) 11:39, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

eg:

Try sorting on the finish columns. Nigej (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * There are a few things I was going to do to the 2013 table (besides filling in the last few columns). I was going to move the flags to a separate column, as seen in 2014, color-code top-10 finishes, and make the finishes sortable. There are some things I'm not sure about, such as color-coding the FedEx Cup standings columns, and what to do for those columns for people who didn't gualify for the previous tournament. I can do the top-10 color-coding manually easily enough, but the flags and sortability would be tedious. Here's how I would like it to look (# indicates number yet to be filled in; ??? indicates cells I'm not sure what to do with):


 * Feel free to use the vim editor on User:Phinumu/FedEx Cup. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  20:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's just about what I was wanting. The one thing I can see is that DNP currently is sorted before WD (it should be after). Also I'm not entirely clear on what the benefit of using – instead of the actual character is. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  15:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure either but I couldn't work out how to get one using the editor (not on keyboard, cut and paste didn't seem to work). I'll look into it. DNP/WP issue should be easy I would think. Nigej (talk) 17:28, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I have just edited the table, and there are a few more things that the editor would be useful for. A simple "replace all" I can do easily enough by copying into a text document and transferring back; I have done so with the n-dashes. The things I would like to have done besides the DNP/WD issue are 1) removing the "final pts." column from both tables, 2) making the "reset points" column sort so that the dashes are below the numbers, and 3) finishing the "final rank" column by pasting the numbers from the red cells. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  18:20, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Mostly done, I hope. Can't work out the last one. Too tricky for me. Nigej (talk) 20:20, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's okay, I just did it. I think the 2013 table is about finished. I still would like the "final pts." column removed from the 2014 table. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  21:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I have just added the table to 2013 FedEx Cup Playoffs. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  22:37, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Just noticed how you're doing names. Probably sortname template is better than sort. I have changed the table above for you to see. NB Tim Clark. Probably can do something fairly quick if you're thinking of doing it manually. Nigej (talk) 09:37, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * How does that handle suffixes such as Jr. and III? There probably aren't any cases of this in the FedEx Cup lists, but what would happen if Charles Howell III and David Howell were in the same list? pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  15:04, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Optional fourth parameter can be used Charles Howell III - sorts on Howell Charles not Howell III Charles. You'll need to go into edit to see the text. Nigej (talk) 17:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The 2014 and 2012 tables are both still using the sort template. By the way, what would be the fastest way to fill in the tables? pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  18:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the MDFs: I had intended to change them to " MDF ", etc., so they would sort as the actual place and still read "MDF". I think it's a little misleading to list someone as having finished 71st, when they didn't actually finish. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  20:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The PGA Tour uses MDF on their leaderboard but in the results they use the actual finish, with money and FEC points earned. These finishes are also shown on the PGA Tour's player pages, see for example Mickelson's or Choi's. Tewapack (talk) 21:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I would prefer to go with how it's displayed in the leaderboard. The European Tour, in its results pages, includes place for players who missed the cut, and also does so in player pages, but that doesn't mean we should do so.  pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  23:12, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * But we're talking PGA Tour not Eur. Tour. The MDFs did earn money and FedEx Cup points and the results pages and player pages reflect that. The MDF is only used on leaderboards - it is not tracked anywhere else by the PGA Tour. Tewapack (talk) 03:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, by using "MDF" instead of the actual finish, you would be hiding information (the actual place which leads to the actual points earned) These 9 individuals did not earn the same points as may be implied by all being listed as MDF. Tewapack (talk) 03:09, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, then how about using a footnote to indicate the MDF? pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  03:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Tha might work. Tewapack (talk) 03:34, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Nationality field in infobox golfer
Please join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox golfer. Tewapack (talk) 20:01, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Template talk:Infobox golfer
I have restarted the "Nationality field" "discussion" at Template talk:Infobox golfer. Nigej (talk) 17:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Johnny Golden
We have Johnny Golden (who played in the first two Ryder Cup matches) born in the US but there are some references to him being born in Europe: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/3912857.stm http://trenhamgolfhistory.org/Section19221929.html Anyone know the truth? Nigej (talk) 07:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Of the American Ryder Cup golfers I can only find Chi-Chi Rodríguez not born in the USA. He was born in Puerto Rico which presumably counts as part of the USA for Ryder Cup purposes. Nigej (talk) 08:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The 1930 US census has Golden born in New York with parents born in Hungary. Tewapack (talk) 18:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Use of flagicons in Specific two-team tournament pages
"Specific two-team tournament page" means pages like 2014 Ryder Cup, not Ryder Cup itself (not a specific event), not 2013 World Cup of Golf (multi-team).

We have somewhat less than 100 of these: Ryder Cup (40), Presidents Cup (10), Seve Trophy (8), Royal Trophy (7), EurAsia Cup (1), Solheim Cup (13), Lexus Cup (4), Walker Cup (10). They are all of a rather similar style and all (I think) have a section called "Teams" or something similar which lists the team players plus usually the captains and occasionally vice-captains/assistant captains. In this section flagicons are generally used to indicate the "sporting nationality" of the individuals, except in the case of the United States team where flagicons are not generally used since each individual would have the same flagicon.

For Ryder Cup, Seve Trophy, Solheim Cup and Walker Cup there is general use of flagicons to indicate the teams. In the Seve Trophy we use the Europe flag for Continental Europe. For Presidents Cup, Royal Trophy, EurAsia Cup, Lexus Cup flagicons are not used to represent the teams since no suitable flagicon is available for one of the teams (International or Asia).

My proposal for these "Specific two-team tournament page" is this:


 * Each of these pages should have a "Team" section. Where a team involves more than one country (including GB which is regarded as four countries) flagicons should be used to indicate the "sporting nationality" of the players. Where a team involves only one country (currently this is just United States) flagicons should not be used to indicate the "sporting nationality" of the players.


 * Except in the "Team" section flagicons should not be used for individuals.


 * Where suitable flagicons are available for both teams these should be used as a shorthand in tables to indicate the relevant team. These may also be used in headings together with the team name (by which I mean eg: Europe)


 * Where a suitable flagicon is not available for one of the teams, no flagicons should be used for either team.

The above is broadly the current situation.

Nigej (talk) 08:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

RfC: use of flag icons in sports articles
WP:Golf members who have an opinion regarding the use of flag icons in sports articles may wish to comment in this ongoing discussion: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. Thank you. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:15, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * There is now a formal RfC on the Manual of Style/Icon talk page regarding the use of flag icons for athletes in international competiton: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 10:26, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Horton Smith age in 1929 Ryder Cup
There are countless references to Horton Smith being 21 years and 4 days old when he played in the 1929 Ryder Cup. This is something of a mystery to me since it seems he was born on May 22, 1908 and the 1929 Ryder Cup started on April 26, 1929, making him somewhat less than 21 (see List of Ryder Cup records). It seems that either folk think he was born on April 22 or that the 1929 Ryder Cup started on May 26. Nigej (talk) 17:43, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this is a case of the record books simply getting it wrong. His birth date is given in several of the refs and external links as May 22, 1908 and the date of the Ryder Cup isn't in dispute. I have found several references to the fact that he was 20 at the 1929 RC in google newspaper archives, , etc. Tewapack (talk) 18:42, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Newspaper articles are very interesting. Nigej (talk) 19:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The Times for 23 May 1929 (i.e. post Ryder Cup): "St. Cloud, May 22 - Horton Smith, the young American, won the French Professional Championship here to-day with a score of 273 for the four rounds played. It was Horton Smith's 21st birthday and he celebrated it with a particular fine win over a field which included the leading American and British golfers." Nigej (talk) 13:24, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Fred Robson: Welsh or English? (continued)
The recent discussions about Nationality at Template talk:Infobox golfer have clarified that Nationality here relates to "Sporting Nationality". There was a discussion here sometime back (2012) about Fred Robson: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 4. My conclusion now is that Robson should be regarded as English, despite being born in Wales. He played for England in professional golf matches. The only negative point is that this choice could have been one of expediency since England were playing matches but not Wales (I think).

Currently we have a mish-mash where he is Welsh in the 1927, 1929 and 1931 Ryder Cup pages but English here: List of European Ryder Cup golfers. In the 1910 Open Championship and 1911 Open Championship he is British while in 1927 Open Championship, 1928 Open Championship, 1930 Open Championship, 1932 Open Championship he is English. Nigej (talk) 10:28, 2 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I have changed all the entries to have England flags. Nigej (talk) 18:20, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:PROD of Turnberry, Ailsa Course
I have Proposed for deletion Turnberry, Ailsa Course since it duplicates Turnberry (golf course). Turnberry, Ailsa Course is not currently part of WP:GOLF. Nigej (talk) 22:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Template tidy-up
I have done some tidying up of the Golf templates. These are listed at WikiProject Golf/Templates (except for odd ones lined up for deletion). There are 358 templates in WP:Golf. That sounds like a lot but a number of these are team navboxes for specific Ryder Cups/Presidents Cups/Solheim Cups eg 2014 United States Ryder Cup team (126). There are also quite a few stub notices eg SouthKorea-golf-bio-stub (49). If you create/rename/delete templates please update WikiProject Golf/Templates.

I'm inclined to try and get rid of Male golfers who have won 2 or more Major Championships in one year and Female golfers who have won two or more Major Championships in one year. These simply duplicate the information in Men's major golf championships and Women's major golf championships. Following this approach would lead to a navbox for every golf record there is. The same could be argued for eg Men's Career Grand Slam Champion Golfers. Nigej (talk) 09:53, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Specific tour seasons pages
I'm talking here about pages named "NNNN Name Tour" where NNNN in the year, e.g. 2014 PGA Tour (or tour pages where similar information is built into the main article eg OneAsia with redirect from ). (331 of these + 14 redirects, excluding 2015 tours)

I've assessed or reassessed these individual year pages as class=start rather than class=stub (which most were) since most are of a similar standard, containing primarily a list of events/winners and a navbox at the bottom, and are not likely to be improved significantly in the near future. Quite a few pages are missing but overall the coverage is good. A few points:

1) There seems to be a certain randomness as to whether we have separate pages or built-in lists. Separate pages are used for the more important tours and for the longer standing ones.

2) For the Legends Tour we have 2 separate pages (2006, 2007) and 2 built into the main article (2012, 2013). 2014 is currently missing.

3) For the Argentinian tours we have TPG Tour (which is very out of date) plus 6 specific season pages (2004 Argentine Professional Golf Tour, 2005 PGA Argentina Tour, 2006 PGA Argentina Tour, 2007 TPG Tour, 2008 TPG Tour, 2009 TPG Tour). Looks like the TPG tour is still going, see http://tour.pgargentina.org.ar/tour/ (in spanish). All this needs sorting out. I've left the 6 specific season pages as stubs for now.

The tour graduates pages (like 2014 Challenge Tour graduates, 2014 European Tour Qualifying School graduates, 2014 Web.com Tour Finals graduates) are class=list (59 of these).

Nigej (talk) 16:47, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi Nigej


 * During the year I have been working on improving the level of coverage of the PGA Tour LA which currently lists all seasons to date on the main page, if you think this should be split into separate pages for each season then I can easily to this. However I feel this should only be done if we are to be consistent and do this for all other tours that carry the standard 6 ranking points per event, at the moment both the Korean and Canadian tours have separate pages per season.


 * I've also been worried about the level of coverage of events and players on each of the tours, in my updates for the PGA Tour LA I have ensured that all players having won an event on the tour and each of the events of the tour have a wikipedia page (since they do carry OWGR points), however looking through some of the other tours there are a significant number of tournaments and winners without pages.


 * What do you think is the best way forward to improve the consistency of coverage? I can start going through the other tours as I have with the PGA Tour LA but I have limited time so this will take a while to fix.

Tracland (talk) 12:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * As you say the tour pages particularly highlight missing player pages. I'm assuming that all the tours where we have tournament results/winners deserve separate pages for each season since they'll eventually get too big if we keep adding results. That certainly applies to the tours that get OWGR points which one assumes have a long term future. I suppose there might have been some thought in the past that some of the new tours might collapse and all results could be built-in, but I still think it's more consistent to have separate season pages even if some of them are a bit of the thin side (see eg Women's Senior Golf Tour 2000 - Dutch version with just 2 events). So personally I would say create separate pages for the PGA Tour LA. You'll find the pages are currently redirects but you can there with eg which adds &redirect=no. The talk page can be changed too to start,low. As you can see below we have 351 separate seasons and only 31 built-in and it seems to me that it would be better to have the 31 in the same style as all the others. Part of my reason for looking into all this is to highlight inconsistencies. Nigej (talk) 16:06, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Just wondering whether you would add the PGA tour LA seasons to Tour de las Américas seasons with a suitable rename (to eg Latin America tour seasons) (like I've done for Argentine Tour seasons) or create a new template PGA Tour Latinoamérica seasons. Nigej (talk) 17:48, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Also be nice if these season pages had an infobox based on Infobox sports season perhaps, but that's a lot to ask. See User:Nigej/sandbox for a simple example. Needs a bit of thinking about before embarking. Nigej (talk) 18:11, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I have now done this for the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons on the PGA Tour Latinoamérica and reduced the level of content in the main article. I will look into doing this for the other tours in due course Tracland (talk) 23:27, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * There's a problem with the Infobox sports season when prevseason_year is not defined, see 2012 PGA Tour Latinoamérica, 1958 FIBA European Champions Cup. I've left a comment on the template talk page. Nigej (talk) 08:31, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Specific tour seasons review
Excluding 2015 pages we have 351 of these pages plus an additional 31 which are built into the tour page and accessible through a redirect. (331 above was a mistake - was 348, 3 Legends Tour seasons added since) This excludes the Japan Challenge Tour. For some reason we delete old versions of the schedule, available here:.


 * Updated this should now be 354 with 28 redirects following split of PGA Tour Latinoamerica Tracland (talk) 23:30, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Filled in Legends tours seasons 2008 to 2011 so now 358. Nigej (talk) 10:53, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Mens tours

 * Asian Tour (2004-2014) - 11
 * European Tour (1972-2014) - 43
 * Japan Golf Tour (2007-2014) - 8
 * PGA Tour (1960-2014) - 55
 * PGA Tour of Australasia (2006-2014) - 9
 * Sunshine Tour (2000/01-2014) - 15
 * Asian Development Tour (2010-2014) built-in (redirects)
 * Challenge Tour (1990-2014) - 25
 * Korean Tour (2010-2014) - 5
 * OneAsia Tour (2009-2014) built-in (redirects)
 * PGA Tour Canada (2007-2014) - 8
 * PGA Tour China (2014) built-in (redirects)
 * PGA Tour Latinoamérica (2012-2014) - built-in (redirects) - 3
 * Web.com Tour (1999-2014) - 16
 * Alps Tour - none
 * EPD Tour - none
 * Nordic Golf League - none
 * PGA EuroPro Tour - none
 * eGolf Professional Tour - none
 * Gateway Tour - none
 * NGA Pro Golf Tour - none
 * Japan Challenge Tour (2014) built-in (2010-2013 deleted)
 * Professional Golf Tour of India - none
 * SAS Masters Tour (men) - none
 * TPG Tour (2004-2009) - 6
 * Champions Tour (1980-2014) - 35
 * European Seniors Tour (2006-2014) - 9
 * Tour de las Américas (2007-2012) - 6
 * US Pro Golf Tour - none
 * Golden Bear Tour - none

Articles: 251 254a (+ 15 12a redirects)

Womens tours

 * ALPG Tour (2009-2014) built-in (redirects)
 * Ladies European Tour (2006-2014) - 9
 * LPGA of Japan Tour (2009-2014) - 6
 * LPGA of Korea Tour (2009-2014) - 6
 * LPGA Tour (1950-2014) - 65
 * SAS Masters Tour (women) - none
 * Symetra Tour (2006-2014) - 9
 * Ladies Asian Golf Tour (2005-2014) built-in (redirects)
 * Legends Tour (2006 -2007,2012 -2014) - 5 9

Articles: 100 104a (+ 16 redirects)

Summary
Total: 351 358a (+ 31 28a redirects)

a Updated PGA Tour Latinoamerica on 10 January 2014 into 3 separate pages as per above discussion Tracland (talk) 23:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC), + 4 Legends Tour Nigej (talk) 10:53, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Current state of 2015 pages
Created: Champions Tour, European Seniors Tour, European Tour, Japan Golf Tour, LPGA Tour, LPGA of Japan Tour, Ladies European Tour, Legends Tour, PGA Tour, PGA Tour of Australasia, Sunshine Tour

Missing (for tours that have 2014 pages): Asian Tour, Challenge Tour, Korean Tour, LPGA of Korea Tour, PGA Tour Canada, Symetra Tour, Web.com Tour

Template:Footer MensMajors
Query for the interested about the contents of Template:Footer MensMajors. This navbox, which has been stable for years, was recently edited to remove some tournaments that are considered semi-major in certain contexts around the world (namely the outright removal of the link to Triple Crown (golf) and the two semi-majors (the South African Open and Canadian Open) that are included in definitions of that term. Also removed was the Players Championship, often called the "fifth major", at least in US PGA Tour contexts. These were not part of the section of current majors, which is the first and most prominent part, but under a section called "related" (which isn't exactly a great name). So the two fold question is this: First, should they be listed in this template at all? Secondly, if they are, what should be the section name? oknazevad (talk) 02:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * From where I sit (the UK) I can say I'd never heard of the Triple Crown (in this context) until I read the article. I'm even unclear as to whether the term is even well known or used in SA/Canada. The term is used in Australia for their own 3 big events. We even have the Triple Crown of the PGA Tour (http://www.pgatour.com/news/2014/07/25/triple-crown-usopen-openchampionship-rbccanadianopen.html). So I would definitely remove the Triple Crown and the SA/Canadian Opens. Then we are left with the Players Championship. At least I am aware of this being called the 5th major but over here we just regard it as a PGA Tour PR stunt and hope they'll eventually give up the idea. Actually it's just the 5th WGC event nowadays. Of course that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the template (since the term is widely used in the US) but personally I'd prefer to get rid of it from the template too. We could put it in the "past" section since it's essentially a failed PR attempt to get Major status but perhaps that wouldn't go down too well on the other side of the pond. My view is that the term is almost entirely a US one and the remarks about it in The Players Championship and Men's major golf championships should be changed to reflect that fact. I can clearly remember when the 2 Amateur events were included in the career stats so I'd be against removing them. Nigej (talk) 07:17, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I do agree the perception of the Player's is largely American. I wouldn't call it a PR stunt, though; the tournament's roots are in the somewhat messy way the PGA Tour split from the PGA of America. But I think it's status is largely because of the large prize money (the largest on the tour) and the favorable scheduling (halfway between the Masters and the US Open in a month with no major) leads a field of golfers pretty comparable to the majors many years, at least among the regulars on the American PGA Tour. That quality of competition is what gives it such a high profile.
 * As for the others, I too had never heard of the Triple Crown till I saw it in this navbox, and I wonder if it's just a case of an achievement that was considered significant historically but now isn't. Considering the way the Canadian Open has been bumped around the schedule, and South Africa's history as a pariah country for a while, neither of them has kept the level of prestige to really make a Triple Crown, regardless of the definition, a major achievement. oknazevad (talk) 18:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Nobody recognizes the Players Championship as a major championship. It is a PR stunt, as were other short lived ones promoting The Westchester Classic, The World Series of Golf, and The Memorial for possible status as a 5th major. Those trial balloons were all very brief ones. If the PGA Tour wanted the Players to be a major, all they got to do is designate it as such. Look what the LPGA did with the Evian Championship. The PGA Tour probably fears bad publicity if it did so, and anyone that follows that tour knows that the PGA Tour knows it tries to avoid bad publicity at all cost. My opinion- the controversy would blow over in a few years at most.   What you, me, or any other editor think about the prestige of the Players Championship is strictly an opinion and remember WP:NPOV when it comes to editing around here.
 * If you're wondering, I never saw that template till yesterday. It came to my attention due to the South African Open. I'm not new to golf edits. Done thousands of them. I just didn't many do many European Tour ones till about a year ago.
 * The template should be for articles that are on the major championships or related articles to them. At this time The Players Championship isn't a Men's major championship and shouldn't be in the template....William 18:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm unclear what you think about the Amateur events in the template, otherwise I agree with you. Interesting thought about the PGA tour calling the Players a Major without agreement of any other parties. I suspect that if the PGA Tour did do so, other tours would call their "flagship" events "Majors" too and we'd end with a plethora of them. I can just imagine an event called the European Tour Major Championship. As you say whether any of this would stick only history would tell. The women's major are of a different nature, we all accept that they're self-nominated and are, frankly, a bit of mess. Who can name them? Nigej (talk) 19:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I can. I twice received media credentials to blog the LPGA Tour. Unfortunately the last time the LPGA was in SE Florida was 2008. I also love golf history. As in my putting Kathy Whitworth's LPGA Tour win and playoff boxes together. Trying to piece together 82 wins and 28 playoffs was alot of work but educational at the same time.
 * I left the Amateur events in because they were considered majors at one time and the template clearly labels them as past ones. The Bobby Jones grandslam of 1930 is well known and still acknowledged today....William 20:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Challenge tour logo
I have put on info box on the Challenge Tour page to be consistent with other tour pages and as per the discussion above but do not have an image of the tour logo to use. Could someone put up an image in the info box.

Thanks Tracland (talk) 10:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Noticed that the European Tour page is also missing the logo from its page, would appreciate it if someone could put this up too. Tracland (talk) 10:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Missing Tours
We are missing 2 women's tours completely: China Ladies Professional Golf Association Tour (aka: China LPGA Tour/CLPGA Tour) and the Ladies European Access Series (aka: Ladies European Tour Access Series/LET Access Series/LETAS). Both get WWGR points. Nigej (talk) 12:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * For some of the mini-tours, the information is very outdated; and I'm not sure what the notability requirements are for golf tours. The SAS Masters Tour is now the Nordea Tour, and it's no longer the European second-tier women's tour. Some other tours that might deserve articles: the Sunshine Big Easy Tour, the MENA Golf Tour, the ASEAN PGA Tour. There's also the Japan Senior Tour and the PGA Legends Tour. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  15:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Tournament results tables
I have developed the following formula for results tables on tournament articles.

Please let me know what you think. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  16:51, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The winner's country should be in a separate column (after his name). The round-by-round score seems to be too much info. The score column could (and often is) split into "Score" and "To par" (this allows for highlighting of both aggregate and to-par records, which are often different). For most tournaments, course and location are better suited to a separated table or list - they are useful only when the tournament moves annually (or nearly annually), such as national opens. For older tournaments, it is often difficult to find the purse and/or winner's share. Tewapack (talk) 17:40, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I've redone the above table as desribed. I consider the course, location, winner's share, and purse to be optional (keep them if they're there, don't add them). I'm okay with the winner's country being in a separate column, as long as it's to the left of the course and location. A few weeks ago I redid the table at British Masters because it seemed too hard to read; the winners' names seemed rather inconspicuous. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  19:22, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Tweak: I've centered the "Score" and "To par" columns. Tewapack (talk) 20:00, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Does that mean that we are now going to start ensuring that a reference is inlcluded for each result. This is something I have tried to include whenever I set up a tournament page but is lacking on a large number of tournament pages. Personally I believe that we should cite the result each year to a reliable source, however I have had this column removed by other users on some pages I have set up. Tracland (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I forgot to mention that I view "ref" as optional. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  21:02, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * For some tournaments, a link to a tournament media guide, for example, can serve as a ref for the whole table, eliminating the need for a "Ref" column. Tewapack (talk) 21:41, 28 January 2015 (UTC)