Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 8

Question about golfers' national representation
As most of you know, a lot of British-born professional golfers moved to America at the turn of the 20th Century. The national representation status of some of these golfers is ambiguous on Wikipedia. I think it would be good if we clarified their statuses. Below I have listed the nationality of certain golfers on the relevant major championship "winners" Wikipedia pages. (Only first and second place finishers are listed on these pages.) I have also provided information from the Open Championship "champions" page about the relevant golfers life history - this information seems pretty reliable.

Keep in mind, I have only included the most prominent examples here. There are, I think, dozens of other British-born golfers from this era who moved to America and have Wikipedia pages. I am not saying all - or even most - of these golfers have ambiguous statuses. However some may. There are also going to be some other tournament pages with ambiguity (e.g. Western Open).

Overall I hope the information I have provided gives a good sense of these inconsistencies.

Harry Vardon

Vardon was born and raised in Jersey but lived most of his adult life in England and represented England in international matches. The Open Championship classifies him as "English."

1896 Open Championship (England) - 1898 Open Championship (England) - 1899 Open Championship (England) - 1900 US Open (Jersey) - 1900 Open Championship (England) - 1901 Open Championship (England) - 1902 Open Championship (England) - 1903 Open Championship (England) - 1911 Open Championship (England) - 1912 Open Championship (England) - 1913 US Open (Jersey) - 1914 Open Championship (England) - 1920 US Open (Jersey)

Jock Hutchinson

He was born in Scotland but, by at least 1921, he was an American citizen.

1916 US Open (Scotland) - 1916 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1920 US Open (America) - 1920 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1921 Open Championship (America)

Ted Ray

Ray was born and raised in Jersey but lived most of his adult life in England and represented England in international matches. The Open Championship classifies him as "English."

1912 Open Championship (England) - 1913 US Open (Jersey) - 1913 Open Championship (England) - 1920 US Open (Jersey) - 1925 Open Championship (England)

Jim Barnes

Barnes was born in England but, by at least 1925, was an American citizen. The World Golf Hall of Fame's website states, however, though he moved to America in 1906 he never became an American citizen "remaining an intensely patriotic Cornishman."

1916 PGA Championship (England) - 1919 PGA Championship (England) - 1921 US Open (England) - 1921 PGA Championship (England) - 1922 Open Championship (America) - 1924 PGA Championship (England) - 1925 Open Championship (America)

Tommy Armour

Armour was born and raised in Scotland but was an American citizen by at least 1931.

1927 US Open (Scotland/America) - 1930 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1931 Open Championship (America) - 1935 PGA Championship (Scotland/America)

Harry Cooper

There is no information about his national representation status on the Open Championship page as he never played in the event. However on his Wikipedia it states that he was born in England and then moved to America as a small child.

1927 US Open (Scotland/America) - 1936 Masters (England/America) - 1936 US Open (England/America) - 1938 Masters (England/America)

Given the international flavor of golf you'd think there'd be more problems like this in the modern era. I haven't noticed it though. Most very elite international golfers (e.g. Els, Poulter, Oosthuizen, Norman, McIlroy) have their permanent residences in the United States. However their national status is always the country they were born and raised in. Not once have I seen it deviate anywhere - on TV, the internet, Wikipedia, anywhere. There are, however, a few I'd like to mention.

- There are a few confusing situations in the mid-1900s era. Jim Ferrier was born and raised in Australia. He became an American citizen in 1944. The 1947 PGA Championship, 1950 Masters, and 1960 PGA Championship pages (he finished in first or second in all of them) lists him as Australian or, in the case of the last one, Australian/American. Meanwhile the 1964 Masters lists him exclusively as "American". Similarly, I have noticed some confusion re: Guy Wolstenholme: he was born in Britain but moved to Australia as an adult. The national rep statuses are not always consistent. Likewise with British-born Chris Williams who moved to South Africa.

- In very recent times there are some issues. South Africans Rory Sabbatini and Peter Karmis changed their status to qualify for the Olympics. There may be one of two more. We should make sure those are always up to date. Also, Mark McNulty picked up Irish citizenship in the past 15 years or so. That should always be clear.

Relatedly, I was thinking about creating a separate Wikipedia page to clarify those with ambiguous status.

Please let me know what you think about all of this.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 07:26, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly


 * This is a topic that has come up a number of times over the years. One obvious solution, proposed by some purists, is to simply remove all the flags from all the articles. However, flags are very widely used in golf media and personally I wouldn't be keen on going down that route. I also wouldn't be keen on a Wikipedia article but we probably should have something in the WP:GOLF structure where we give advice on the topic. One point to note is that we're talking about their "sporting nationality" not their actual nationality; clearly there's no such nationality as English or Welsh but they are used widely in golf. For contemporary golfers the flag we should be using is the flag that is used on the main websites: PGA Tour, European Tour, OWGR, etc. There's no need for us to analyse why. Rory Sabbatini is now Slovakian or Peter Karmis is now Greek. Ian Woosnam chooses to have a Welsh flag against his name so he's Welsh. Stephen Ames is a good example to look at. See this comment by Tewapack: Talk:Stephen Ames. OWGR changed his flag to CAN in 2005 but he still represented TTO in 2006. Generally I think we use TTO before 2005 and CAN after 2006 but when he won the 2006 Players Championship we generally have him as TTO but in The Players Championship we have CAN, showing that nothing is simple. Going back a bit further in time we have, for instance, Ken Brown (golfer) who was English until mid-1977 and Scottish after that. Brian Barnes (golfer) was English until 1971 and then Scottish. For Barnes we are incorrect in a few cases, eg we have a Scottish flag for the 1969 Ryder Cup and for the 1969 Agfa-Gevaert Tournament when he was actually English at that time. Going back earlier in time is even more problematic. Generally people were more lax about these things. "England" might be taken to include Jersey, or even Wales, simply because there was no Jersey or Welsh team. Tom Green (golfer) played for England in 1935 but when a Welsh team appeared he played for that in 1937. So I would put him down as Welsh even though he had played for England. Jim Barnes played for the United States in 1926 but was excluded from the American 1927 Ryder Cup team by the decision of the American PGA to only select US-born players. However, neither of these really tell you whether he was American or not. Not an easy topic. Nigej (talk) 09:03, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I put together most of the clarification on the Open page. My thoughts were that if you are showing the official results of a tournament, then you should use the nationality as determined by that official body. My hope was that the clarification notes would provide enough for people to be happy to not challenge the nationalities on the page anymore (which comes up periodically, including by me when I first joined wiki!). Are you happy with how it is shown in the Open? Jopal22 (talk) 11:26, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was an excellent idea to add the notes to The Open Championship. Hopefully by explaining the issues we'll avoid controversies in the future. Someone like Jim Barnes was perhaps considered an American by the Brits and as a Brit by the Americans. Nigej (talk) 12:37, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your responses. Ok, so if we are going to add something to WP:GOLF what do we add? And will golf editors actually refer to it (rather than an independent Wikipedia page)?
 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 07:08, 7 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly


 * To Jopal22 and Nigej: So what do we think?
 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:56, 9 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * One possibility is to write some sort of "essay" going through the issues. This wouldn't carry too much weight but could be referred to when there was a dispute. Another approach is to try and reach a consensus here about the approach to use. This would carry more weight. Information about a player's real nationalities, places they were born, lived and died are areas for the biographies. Discussions about a player's "sporting nationality" should be on their talk page. It seems to me that we're largely discussing what flag to put next to someone. Personally I can't get too excited about it but this topic of "sporting nationality" does come around repeatedly and probably it would probably be a good idea to having something written down to avoid repetition in talk pages like this. My feeling is that for those Brits who went to America (before WWII), there is no "correct" answer. If (say) the Open Championship website says Jim Barnes is American and an official American website says he's English, I'm not sure how we would proceed. Nigej (talk) 06:25, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Worth noting there is already MOS:SPORTFLAG, which says "If these rules allow a player to represent two or more nations, then a reliable source should be used to show who the sportsperson has chosen to represent". The issue is that I don't think players were asked to "choose" a nationality in that era, so us deciding what they should have chosen would be WP:OR. That is why I favour showing the nationalities in line with whatever the Major championship used. This would mean Jim Barnes is American for The Open, and English for the U.S. Open. If we make it clear that we are showing the nationality as reported by the organising body (as per the Open page), that is my preference. Some majors will list winners by nationality, and if we force Jim Barnes (for example) to be one nationality across the board it would mean the wins by nationality in any particular major would not match those reported by the organising body. Jopal22 (talk) 10:06, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


 * You make some good points. So I guess we've determined that the first criterion of the golfer's "sporting nationality" is what they personally choose. If they do not choose then we defer to what the particular tournament determines. So some issues still remain...
 * Do we have any evidence that these turn of the century golfers made decisions regarding their nationality? I came across a website earlier in the month (I cannot find it now) that indisputably stated that Tommy Armour felt like an American by, I think, 1924. There may be direct evidence of other golfers from this era. Are we aware of any?
 * Meanwhile, do we have any direct evidence that more recent golfers like Jim Ferrier or Guy Wolstenholme or Chris Williams made overt decisions about their nationality? Or any other modern golfers? I think that would be easier to find.
 * For the tournaments, do we have information about their sporting nationality from the original source (i.e. US Open website or something)? And from other major championships?


 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:48, 19 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * Although golfers can to a certain extent choose their own "sporting nationality" there still might be restrictions. In the Rory Sabbatini and Peter Karmis cases, presumably they have taken up the nationality of those countries, perhaps thinking that it might be a way of getting into the Olympics Games or World Cup. In the Brian Barnes (golfer) case he had to join the Scottish section of the PGA and so had to qualify to join that (he had Scottish parents) before he could get selected for Scotland in the international competition. So I think the rule might be that, where a player might qualify for two or more countries they can choose. If a player was not planning to play international competition there was generally little need to declare a sporting nationality. The Masters discussion below does provide an exception, since being an American did make a difference to getting into that. I seem to remember Chi-Chi Rodríguez complaining that he had to rely on the uncertainly of a foreign invitation, although later he moved into the American category, presumably after taking up US citizenship, even playing in the Ryder Cup eventually. Another for your list: Roberto De Vicenzo played for Mexico in the Canada Cup from 1956 to 1961 and when he played in the 1960 Open Championship for instance he was down as Mexican (see https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=U4RAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qZsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1881%2C1610622) but we have him as Argentina. Can of worms, I'm afraid. Nigej (talk) 10:42, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I think we have confirmed my suspicions that this is a confusing topic. The original question was... what to do about it? Do we create a separate Wikipedia page that clarifies things? Do we write an "essay" on WP:Golf? Do we do nothing at all?
 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 00:05, 21 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly


 * It's a general sporting nationality issue rather than a golf specific one & I can't see an article or essay offering any clarity at all since in many of these cases a players sporting nationality is just always going to be unclear (and changeable). Instances are best resolved on a case-by-case basis, notwithstanding the fact that sources will often be contradictory. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 12:22, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Creating flags
I sometimes like to place national flags next to golfers name in golf tournament pages. However, the way I do it now is just copy and paste from other pages. Could someone explain to me how to create them the normal way? Also if someone could direct me to a wikipedia page that explain how to create things like this that would be great so then I could stop bugging people. Sincerely, Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * Easy enough - Use the flag template at Template:Flag. SportingFlyer  T · C  05:17, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's a rundown of the flag templates that are used most often in golf articles. Except in articles relating to the Olympics, we use the ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 three-letter country codes; the Olympic code RSA would produce the same results as in this table.
 * {|class=wikitable

!Syntax!!Produces!!Notes
 * or ||🇿🇦||The only time we'd use flagcountry instead of the shortcut template is for historical flags, as in the next row.
 * ||🇿🇦 south africa||This flag was used from May 31, 1928 until April 20, 1994, so it would be used for events that occurred in that timespan. The year used in the template has to be the flag's year of adoption, regardless of when the tournament occurred.
 * ||🇿🇦||
 * ||🇿🇦||
 * }
 * pʰeːnuːmuː →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  06:46, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * ||🇿🇦||
 * }
 * pʰeːnuːmuː →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  06:46, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * pʰeːnuːmuː →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  06:46, 3 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. I will definitely use this. My last question is... is there a consensus on using just the flag or the flag with the name of the country. I prefer just the flag for simplicity but I know the country isn't always obvious just from looking at the flag.


 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:44, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * The country name is only used when there's a specific field for country. pʰeːnuːmuː  →‎  pʰiːnyːmyː  → ‎ ɸinimi  → ‎ fiɲimi  00:47, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Safari Tour/Safari circuit
A summary of my understanding. Read Nigerian Open, 2nd paragraph. Despite being unreferenced this seems to basically correct (although I can't guarantee the dates or the Dai Rees bit). The comment by the editor says "Additions + amendment taken from the official PGA European Tour Guides of the time (which includes past winners) and some explanation of how it evolved." The Guardian for 17 Dec 1981 says "The ETPD also promotes the Safari Tour ..." which fits in. My reading of all this that the term "Safari Tour" referred to the tour organised by the European Tour while the term "Safari circuit" was used before the European Tour got involved (and indeed afterwards too) in a more general sense. It seems to me that a good system for us is to use the "Safari Tour" term only where we know that it relates to the European Tour promoted tour but to use "Safari circuit" when it wasn't or when we are uncertain.

While I'm unclear about the start of the Safari Tour, the end is somewhat clearer I think. The tour got OWGR points from the OWGR's inception in 1986, perhaps through it being regarded as a European Tour satellite tour. The following is a list of the events:


 * Early 1986: Nigerian Open, Ivory Coast Open, Kenya Open, Zambia Open, Zimbabwe Open
 * Early 1987: Zimbabwe Open, Kenya Open, Zambia Open
 * Early 1988: Nigerian Open, Ivory Coast Open, Kenya Open, Zimbabwe Open, Zambia Open
 * Early 1989: Zimbabwe Open, Zambia Open, Kenya Open
 * 1989-90: Nigerian Open, Ivory Coast Open, Zimbabwe Open, Zambia Open, Kenya Open
 * 1990-91: Nigerian Open, Ivory Coast Open, Zimbabwe Open, Zambia Open, Kenya Open
 * 1991-92: Ivory Coast Open, Nigerian Open, Zimbabwe Open, Zambia Open, Kenya Open

so during this period there were only the 5 different "opens", although there had been other different events in earlier seasons. The lack of the Nigerian/Ivory Coast opens in 1987 "Tour" perhaps relates to something reported in The Guardian for 28 Oct 1986 "Schofield revealed that the future of the Safari Tour is in the balance. The prize money for the Nigerian Open, played in the second week of February, has still not been paid, and the winner, Gordon Brand, is still waiting for his £16,000 first prize." The same two opens are missing from the early 1989 tour but they didn't miss a year being played in early 1988 and then in late 1989.

In 1990-91 the 5 events were also part of the 1991 Challenge Tour, and they were also in the 1992 Challenge Tour. The Zimbabwe and Ivory Coast events seem to have not taken place in early 1993 but the other 3 were part of the 1993 Challenge Tour. However these 3 did not get OWGR points. The reason seems to be because the Safari Tour had ceased to exist (Challenge Tour events didn't get OWGR points at the time). The Liverpool Echo for 25 Mar 1993 says "Spencer did well in the three-event swing over the old Safari Tour in Africa." It's true that there are odd articles that refer to the Safari Tour after this date but it seems that 1991-92 marked the end of the Safari Tour.

The Zimbabwe Open became a South African Tour event very quickly, November 1993, followed by the Zambia Open in December 1996. The other 3 also continued, perhaps as part of a Safari circuit. Nigej (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I found some of my old spreadsheets which have some more info about the Safari Circuit/Tour. Unfortunately many of the web links for the sources I uncovered are mostly dead now, but lots come from the Glasgow Herald (via Google news) and early European Tour hand/guidebooks so it should be possible to find them again. Anyway... it sort of evolved in/around the late 1960s as British pros spent their winters in Africa, growing from one or two events into an organised tour (up to as many as 10 events, I think) which was then run by the European Tournament Players Division (European Tour) – it had no affiliation with the Sunshine Tour. It appears that in later years (1980s) tournament winners got a European Tour card for that year, and the OoM winners got a place in the Open Championship – but not sure exactly when these benefits were in effect. In 1990/1991, the 5 remaining events (in Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Zimbabwe, Zambia, & Kenya) became part of the Challenge Tour. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2020 (UTC)


 * There were indeed other events on the Safari Tour prior to the late-1980s, some of which were regular fixtures (e.g. Mufulira Open (last played 1984), Cock o' the North (golf), Lusaka Open) and some which were not (e.g. Togo Open, Gambia Open, Eagle Open, Flame Lily Open), although I'm not clear if all these were actually part of the tour or just standalone events. Yes, it appears clear that integration into the Challenge Tour was the de facto end of the Safari Tour, even though the events continued to elicit some nostalgic references during the following few years. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 19:30, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Not forgetting the 1982 Kalahari Diamond Classic (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Jfo9AAAAIBAJ&sjid=CkkMAAAAIBAJ&pg=6696%2C883042) although that was a South African Tour event sometimes. So many. Nigej (talk) 19:55, 5 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I've added most of my old research to User:Wjemather/Safari Tour for anyone who is interested. Unfortunately much of the more interesting stuff that I think could probably better support articles was deadlinked, including an old Golf Monthly article. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2020 (UTC)


 * 51.6.161.113, you created a pretty good page for the Safari Tour. Why did you not publish it? (Or was it deleted by administrators?) Was it the lack of primary sources that referenced "Safari Tour"?


 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:44, 8 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly


 * As noted before, reliable third party sources that reference the Safari Tour directly and in a definitive manner are hard to find without magazines/newspapers of the time. The first clear references to it in the Glasgow Herald are from the early 1980s, but no confirmation of its official start, money lists, schedules, etc. In the early 1970s they refer to a Zambia circuit (there were at least 3 tournaments there) with players moving on to Kenya, or refer more generally to Africa; some sources also include 1/2 day pro-am events in the "safari circuit". That being said, there may be enough to create articles for the Mufulira Open & the Lusaka Open. Incidentally, the pre-tour South Africa/Rhodesia events seem to be referred to as the "Sunshine circuit" as this time. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 10:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Asian Honda Classic
I am looking to make a page for the Asian Honda Classic, an Asian Tour event in Thailand that Tiger Woods won in 1997. This appears to be the only year it was held. However Steve Elkington won an event on the 1996 Asian Tour called the Honda Classic, also in Thailand. Are these tournaments the same event? I cannot find any evidence for it but there are many similarities.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 06:44, 17 October 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly


 * Seems they were the same tournament: "defending champion Steve Elkington". 51.6.160.76 (talk) 15:09, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You must be correct, notwithstanding what it says here: https://www.where2golf.com/golf-tournament/asian-honda-classic.asp, a "one-off" event. Nigej (talk) 18:19, 17 October 2019 (UTC)


 * where2golf is primarily a course guide website. It's value as a reliable source for tournament information is questionable at best & it wouldn't be surprising if most of it wasn't harvested from here (it also has zero information about the Honda Invitational won by Elkington). Surely we should go with the reliable (news) sources of the day. 51.6.160.76 (talk) 22:35, 17 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I know little of where2golf but I think you are right. The AP is a pretty legitimate news company. The mere fact that Elkington was even at this obscure event adds legitimacy to the idea. Also, there is an original quote from Elkington right after it is noted that he is defending champion. The idea that Steve Elkington is there and the defending champion is even more firmly substantiated. I just don't see how they could mess this up. Also, there is a full length Sports Illustrated article about the 1997 event: https://www.si.com/vault/1997/02/17/222800/thais-that-bind-tiger-woods-had-to-juggle-a-slew-of-demands-in-the-homeland-of-his-mother. Although it doesn't state that Elkington is defending champ it does mention he is there.

To 51.6.160.76 and Nigej... last question... In 1995 there was an Asian Tour event in Thailand called the Asian PGA International. It was the first event ever on tour. Do you know if this is the same event as the 1996 and 97 event?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * Honestly I've no idea. The 1995 event was at Sriracha International Golf Club and should probably be called the Sriracha International (see eg https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/127533345). There was a 1996 and 1997 event called the Lexus (Thai) International played at Bangpoo Country Club but whether that relates to the 1995 event I don't know. Nigej (talk) 08:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I suspect they may well be the same tournament, but it would need some research to confirm that with reliable source(s). The 1995 event does seem to have been reported on as the Sriracha International rather the the Asian PGA International. FYI, the Lexus International was also played in 1999 & 2000 at Windmill Park CC, and according to  played as the Thailand Masters in 2001 (again at Windmill Park CC).
 * There was also the Asian Tour International played from 2008 to 2010. 51.6.160.76 (talk) 17:32, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I put it on the back burner for a while but I finally created a page for the Honda Invitational. (For the page's title I deferred to the original name of the event.) I know both of you provided a lot of information about other events during the era that could be part of the same tournament. However it was hard for me to tell if any of that was definitely related to the 1996 and 1997 events. If you think so, however, please add away.


 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

South African Tour schedule 1972/73 - 1999/00
We don't have wiki pages for the South African Tour schedule from 1972/73 - 1999/00. I am interested in creating pages for this era. However there are some problems. I will go over certain roadblocks (or lack thereof) below, in a reverse chronological fashion:

1990/91 - 2006/07 Creating wiki pages for this era should be easy because all of the information is on the Sunshine Tour's website.

1986/87 - 1989/90 This era is doable because most tournaments, I think, are listed on OWGR's website (however not all).

1972/73 - 1985/86 This era will definitely be the hardest. First off I do not technically know if the tour actually began during the 1972/73 season - I am merely going off the Order of Merit wiki page which does not have citations. Otherwise, we have a lot of wiki pages for events during this period (e.g. South African Open, General Motors Open, Schoeman Park Open) however it is difficult to know for certain whether these events were officially South African Tour events or not. I would strongly assume so given that these events all had top players and international media coverage however I don't have any hard evidence. In the Glasgow Herald articles they do not mention anything like "South African Tour." In the Google News newspapers archive, doing some cursory searches, I cannot find any South African newspapers. So I'm not sure what to do... any ideas? The only things I can think of are: 1) if someone can somehow get digital access to South African newspapers; 2) if someone has Sunshine Tour employee contact information that could lead us in the right direction (or provide us with primary sources).

Thanks, Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * The data back to 1991 is also available here: http://www.sunshinetour.info/tic/tmtic.cgi . You need to be careful using the OWGR site since the "Sunshine Tour" option seems to include events that were really part of the Safari circuit. See eg http://www.owgr.com/events?pageNo=1&pageSize=400&tour=Afr&year=1989 which lists the Zimbabwe, Zambia and Kenya Opens in weeks 4, 5 and 6. However https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mDNAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=O1kMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2366%2C1664108 refers to the Zambia Open as "the second tournament on the African Safari circuit". I've never been sure whether the Safari circuit was a real "Tour" or just a series of co-ordinated events. Otherwise I can't be much use I'm afraid. Nigej (talk) 09:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The "Safari Circuit" wasn't an organised tour as such. Is was a collection of individual events outside the jurisdiction of the South African Tour that many European pros played during their winter off-season – think of it as being similar to how the big European opens/tournaments sat alongside the British PGA Circuit prior to the European Tour's foundation. You may find some useful info here: User:Wjemather/Sunshine Tour, User:Wjemather/Safari Tour. Definitely agree about the OWGR site as a very dubious source for anything historical. Almost comical that they have points allocations for early years events on the Sunshine Tour/Safari Circuit that are entirely wrong – looks as though arbitrary minimum points have been applied when many/most events either wouldn't have carried any at all or were minimum-ed much lower than 10. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 12:22, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The Sunshine Tour (and Australian too) have had the Tier 1/Tier 2 concept for many years (although there have been a different terminology eg Winter/Summer). It's only recently (2012) that the Tier 2 events have had OWGR points, so you clearly won't find them on the OWGR site pre-2012. Nigej (talk) 16:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The South(ern) Africa Tour had a "Summer Tour" and a "Winter Tour" during this period, each with it's own order of merit - it later came together into a single season & order of merit. I also don't believe the tour ran any second tier events concurrently during the Summer Tour. The concurrent events and others listed on OWGR are "Safari Circuit" events (i.e. Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Kenya - all XXed out in 1991). There also seem to be other non-tour events listed, but OWGR have included them because they became tour events in later years. Got to love sources that rewrite history! 51.6.161.113 (talk) 17:48, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I suspect you're wrong there. In the early years OWGR simply included events that they thought were of the requisite standard. As such they included many events that were not part of any formal "Tour". It appears that nowadays all events have to part of some tour, even if an unofficial event. The "Safari Circuit" events WERE included in the OWGR in the early years (as indeed were many other non-tour events); it's just that the current software doesn't seem to be able to cope with the early years when there were these non-tour events. Nigej (talk) 17:54, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear – I only meant OWGR incorrectly included them under the "Sunshine Tour" banner (though to me, it seems more likely to be an arbitrary human decision than a software issue). I certainly didn't mean to imply they were incorrectly included on the site for OWGR points, for the reasons you correctly state. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Ok, so it seems like it is going to hard to find information about the 1970s and 1980s South African Tour. I was also thinking about creating annual calendars for the Australian Tour. (Our wiki pages only have a calendar staring in 2006.) It seems like this would be easier because the Google News archives have lots of Australian newspapers. In addition, if either of you have any information that could help please let me know.
 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:16, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * There are certainly more newspapers available online for Australia, especially through Google newspapers and Trove (although coverage is poorer in more recent times). This means that you can sometimes find enough information to create a "tournament" article. The problem I've had is that it is not at all obvious which tournaments are part of an official Tour. We can't just assume that a well-reported tournament was part of the tour, we need more than that, and a tour schedule is impossible to find from my experience. Nigej (talk) 09:47, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Too true. Occasionally you may get lucky finding a schedule published in a newspaper (many years ago I did find one or two for the Safari & Caribbean tours/circuits) but even that would all too often be subject to change, so an end of season results list may be the only definitive list – if you can find one! 51.6.161.113 (talk) 11:45, 3 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the responses. I have tried Trove but have not found any hard evidence at all in distinguishing a "circuit" from a "tour" event during the 1970s. In general I have to agree this will be an uphill battle. I have combed through some Australian newspapers but with no success in finding a calendar or even referencing the word "tour" in these articles. I may have to contact an employee who works for the tour for reliable information (or can lead me in the right direction). Perhaps that is the only viable option.


 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:42, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * One useful thing about Trove is that they provide a ready-made reference. Click on the "i" (top of left hand column when browsing a cutting), scroll down and you get a "Wikipedia citation" which you can put inside ref /ref. NB It's not always 100% correct. Nigej (talk) 09:08, 4 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I finally found a schedule and I wasn't even looking for it! Here is one for the 77-78 season: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110855795?searchTerm=Traralgon%20golf%201977&searchLimits=. I know it still says "circuit" but at least its a start.
 * Thank you very much for Trove by the way. It is defintely a "treasure trove" of great information!
 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly


 * An earlier version of the 1977-78 schedule shows the Chrysler Classic in the Nov 24-27 slot, before it was dropped after Chrysler withdrew their sponsorship . 51.6.161.113 (talk) 13:22, 9 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes I know the schedule isn't enough but at least it's a start. Obviously a year end "Results page" that says "Australian Tour" on it would be gold.


 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly