Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greater Manchester/Archive 24

Belle Vue Zoo
WebHamster did some great work on this article before he retired last year. Clearly there's a need for more citations, which I intend to deal with. Any other comments on what else remains to be done before a GA nomination would be very welcome. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm pleased to be able to report that WebHamster is coming back to help with this article. Which I now realise needs a lot more than just a few citations added. Ah well ... :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 00:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Had a scan of this article this afternoon. It's great! It already looks/smells/feels like an FA in terms of language, layout and content - it's very comprehensive - but you're right, it just needs more citation to get it through GA. However, 'tis excellent news that WebHamster is gonna come back. A good editor. :) --Jza84 | Talk  01:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There's quite a bit still missing I've discovered, even to get through GA, but I'm sure we'll get there. Whoever would have believed that Belle Vue was once the home of the The Hallé, for instance? Or where the Lola Tango was invented? (One day I hope to follow a link to an important article like The Hallé and be pleasantly surprised.) --Malleus Fatuorum 01:17, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Turnpikes in GM
I've been building a list of turnpikes in Greater Manchester, in my sandbox. I've a fair way to go yet before making it live, but just wanted to ask if anyone in the GM area knew of any existing milestones, toll booths, finger posts, gate posts, etc, that I could use to illustrate the article. I have a few images here Also, if anyone has a paper copy of "Albert, William (2007), The Turnpike Road System in England, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521033918", that would be very handy, since its expensive to purchase and not available in any libraries near me. Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There's bound to be some kind of marker related to turnpikes up by Windy Hill (Pennines) (example), it lying on an old turnpike on the former boundary of Lancs and Yorks . I think there are more at the hamlet of Grains Bar ( - and named in reference to a toll bar for grain) and at Austerlands, alson on former turnpikes and along the old Lancs/Yorks boundary.


 * Another interesting milestone which comes to mind is pictured on the Hollinwood, Greater Manchester article. There's another somewhere in Saddleworth which has the old county names chizzled out, reputedly to confuse Germans incase they invaded (?), but probably owing to LGA72. --Jza84 | Talk  16:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, theres one in Ashton I know about, and quite a few up on the high roads in the hills (high roads being drier and less muddy than valley roads). I'm building a map of all turnpike roads in GM too, the file is currently nearly 300MB but it won't be that big once uploaded... Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:47, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You may like to have a look through the Milestone Society's webpage] and links therein for more information, including the section "Recent publications about milestones and related topics" which gives a list containing a number of books that must surely be relevant: Members have been active in a variety of different parts of the UK recording and photographing milestones and milesposts and (I know since I am involved in it a little for Cheshire) in maintaining them. They do still seem to make use of the pre-1974 county boundaries (see the address for the May 2009 meeting, for instance) so that will help identify the relevant publications.  DDStretch    (talk)  18:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh! I possess the Albert book your asked about, Parrot of Doom, as well. I also have some other books about Turnpikes (though most not exclusively about them.)  DDStretch    (talk)  19:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's excellent - do you have a scanner, or camera that can take pictures of the back pages? It's the list of acts that I need to complete that part of the table.  You could email them to me if you like. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:22, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Give me a couple of says, and I'll clear some space to set up a scanner I have and see if I can scan them in.  DDStretch    (talk)  20:40, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Do they say much about the Manchester, Denton, & Stockport? Mr Stephen (talk) 19:12, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look, but it will probably mean reading portions of the book, as the turnpikes that went either side of Stockport are given more prominent positions (and are mentioned and noted on some maps), than the one you list. These other two are the London-Derby-Manchester and the London-Coventry-Manchester roads in their greatest extent. It doesn't seem to have Denton any of the index pages, and I need to go through a large number of pages to see where Manchester is mentioned. Do you know what year the trust was founded and how long it was (probably not, as you probably wouldn't be asking the question). Does the name "Samuel Oldknow" ring any bells concerning the one you're interested in?  DDStretch    (talk)  20:40, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Manchester Denton and Stockport was founded in 1811, 51 George III. Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok. Appendix B of the book, which gives "The Turnpike Acts 1663-1836" doesn't list it under that name. However, it does state in the intro to the table that "Only the terminal points of the main roads turnpiked have been recorded.", and so, taking the ref details, it seems like: Barton Bridge-Stretford (51 Geo.III c.31) could be it (page 219 of the book). Nothing else is really close unless one looks at the preceding year, and those are less likely matches than this one. The large table on the turnpikes website seems difficult to read accurately, because it appears to have some of the columns displaced vertically, which, if I can correct it accurately, does confirm this. Unfortunately, I can't see much else written about this turnpike in the Albert book. I'll take a closer look, though. Do I seem to have identified the correct one?  DDStretch    (talk)  21:22, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't have thought the Barton Bridge-Stretford Turnpike was related, its some distance away. From my limited understanding (I'm only just getting into this) most turnpiked roads were quite short, with numerous small branches, and quite a few name changes.  Its difficult to decipher their layout.  I'll take a guess that the one under discussion is related to Ashton.  On the 1848 map theres a Mottram Trust between Denton and Gorton, and a Manchester and Hyde Trust between Gorton and Manchester.  The 'Manchester and Saltersbrook' Trust ran along what is now Ashton Old Road (A635) between Manchester and on to Longdendale.  To resolve this really I'm going to have to spend a few days in the library, looking at old maps.  Creating this map I'm doing of GM is an epic job :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:09, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The roads in question are the A57 Manchester-Gorton-Denton-Hyde and the B6167 Stockport-Reddish-Gorton. Oldknow’s works were in Marple, a bit to the east of these. Arrowsmith, Stockport, gives the year of the act as 1818.  Arrowsmith’s references are dead ends.  I think you finish in a TLCAS volume – almost certainly the one given by DDStretch - which doesn’t mention that road.  It’s in the Manchester Central Library.  (I have my notes, but I can’t get at them ATM)


 * Condon in Reddish Remembered (completely unreferenced) writes that the Greggs sponsored that part through Reddish: however, Rose in The Greggs of Styal doesn’t mention it.


 * Arrowsmith has a picture of a milestone at Schools Hill in Cheadle, 8 miles to Manchester, 4 ¼ miles to Wilmslow, on the obvious turnpike (acts of 1749 & 1753). The date of the Manchester & Saltersbrook should be 1732 (Arrowsmith).Mr Stephen (talk) 22:49, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict!) ok. This is what I've found in Appendix B from what you said: Manchester - Saltersbrook Trust: 1732. Lancs and Ches. 5 Geo.II c.10. page 204. Manchester - Oldham - Austerland: 1735. Lancs and Yorks. 8 Geo.II c.3. page 204. Rochdale - Halifax: 1735. Lancs and Yorks. 8 Geo.II c.7. page 204. Doncaster - Saltersbrook, etc: 1741. Ches and Yorks. 14 Geo.II c.31. page 204. Stockport - Awdenshaw (turnpiked to a specific trust): 1765. Lancs and Ches. 5 Geo.III c.100. page 211. Stockport - Marple Bridge, etc.: 1801. Ches and Derbys. 41 Geo.III c.98. page 218. Glossop - Marple Bridge: 1803. Derbys. 43 Geo.III c.18. page 218. Manchester - Denton - Stockport (halleluiah! this is the one we've been looking for!): 1818. Ches and Lancs. 58 Geo.III c.6. (looks like the year was a bit out originally) page 221. Manchester - Ashton-under-Lyne: 1825. Lancs. 6 Geo.IV c.51. page 222. Ashton-under-Lyne - Saddleworth: 1826. Yorks and Lancs. 7 Geo.IV c.21. page 222. Radcliffe - Bolton - Bury: 1836. Lancs. 6&7 Wm.IV c.10. page 223. Now, I think I may have included many of the areas you mentioned before (and included one for Radcliffe, too) Within all of these that I found in Appendix B, I think (or I hope) all the routes you mentioned can be seen. Does that help at all? (I think it confirms parts of what Mr Stephen wrote which were entered at the same time as I was editing.)  DDStretch    (talk)  22:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't suppose you have page numbers for those do you.... ;) Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Just added them for you! By the way, you do realise that these aren't the only ones for the Greater Manchester area that I found: there are quite few more, but I chose the ones that seemed most likely to be relevant for the specific questions asked.  DDStretch    (talk)  00:19, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yes there are plenty more, just look at the link in my initial post. Thanks, I'll add those details above into my list. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The other books don't have much, except that the New Historical Atlas of Cheshire (by Phillips and Phillips) gives a sketch map of the turnpike roads in Cheshire, including a number radiating from Stockport. They give two sources that were used for this map (77b on page 77), one being Albert, and the other being an article from 1886. Since the Albert book doesn't seem to give enough info for this map to be drawn, it seems as if there could be more information about the road you are interested in contained in the 1886 article. It is: Harrison, W. (1886). The development of the turnpike system in Lancashire and Cheshire. Transactions of the Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society,IV 1886 (sorry no page numbers given). I imagine if one asked around, one might be able to get a copy (I may ask at the Cheshire Records Office, though possibly not for a week or so.)   DDStretch    (talk)  21:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As an aside to this, here is a mahoosive map of GM, pinched from Google Maps (so obviously not copyright free). It'll be there for a day or two, after which I'll delete it.  Feel free to grab a copy for yourself, it may be useful to anyone using illustrator or similar to create maps of their own.  It's a bit rough around the edges but should be perfectly useable for most things. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:22, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a great resource. I've saved a copy for future reference, ta. --Jza84 | Talk  20:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The article is now here. I have more data to input, and the table will almost certainly change depending upon what people feel is most relevant (I'm unsure if toll booth distances are that important).  I've also nominated it for DYK Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Should the article not be called "Turnpike trusts in Greater Manchester"? (Nice job, btw) --Malleus Fatuorum 00:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably - I'm not bad on grammar but my knowledge of capitals, nouns, etc, is somewhat limited. There has been a mention here that perhaps the article would be best covering the historic counties, but given the amount of work I've already had to do just to fill in a small part of the tables, I'm not inclined to consider working on an area the size of Lancashire (let alone Yorkshire!!!) just yet... Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * All the sources I have make use of historic counties, as they were the bodies that existed at the time the trusts were operating. May be this matter could be easily dealt with by a simple sentence near to the start of the article for them in Greater Manchester? It would help make matters clear, perhaps? By the way, I will get my scanner sorted out soon, and hopefully the appendices will be seen fairly quickly after that. I am hoping to do something similar for Cheshire, but my thoughts were to try to make it more general by dealing with pre-turnpike trusts as well. The Albert book is good at placing the necessity for something like the trusts to be instigated by describing the state of transport routes prior to them being started up, and this includes river and sea navigation, which it does mention; (it has an appendix giving details of acts of parliament that were concerned with improving waterways at the same time as the trusts were being first thought of.)  DDStretch    (talk)  00:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm just a poor peon, if I try to move Turnpike Trusts in Greater Manchester to Turnpike trusts in Greater Manchester it'll set up a useless redirect. Any big boys around? --Malleus Fatuorum 01:35, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the correct capitalisation is, but The Archaeology of Trafford, which I used to add a bit about Sale's turnpike, seems to be favour both capitals. Nev1 (talk) 01:43, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "Turnpike Trusts" is plural though, so it isn't a proper noun, and shouldn't be capitalised. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, Jza's taken care of it. Nev1 (talk) 01:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Anyone know how to change the page formatting so the images aren't pushed from the right side of the page? Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You have to use a table, as in the middle section of Beeston Castle. A lot of reviewers get over-excited when they see that ribbon of images down the righthand side of an article though; some people have no taste. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 00:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Meetup
Just letting you guys know, there's a meetup planned in March here. If you can't make it, but would like to be reminded about future UK meetups, please sign on here. Thanks!  Majorly  talk  16:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Image description needed
The image File:Manchester Cathederal and skyline.JPG (now also Commons:File:Manchester Cathederal and skyline.JPG) has been lacking a description since it was uploaded in February 2008. It is currently linked in no articles on Wikipedia, but I think it should be used as it's a very good image which would enhance one or more articles. I asked on the uploader's talk page but the uploader has not been active since July and there may be no reply, so I'm posting here in the hope that other editors may be able to provide an accurate description (I don't know enough about Manchester city centre to provide one myself). — Athaenara ✉  01:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Taken care of. Nev1 (talk) 02:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you! — Athaenara  ✉  22:36, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

List of people from Rochdale
I think the time has come to create this page. I'm willing to start it if I can get a tiny bit of support in padding it out. I've been prompted to do this having just reviewed Rochdale (Rochdale content is pretty poor on the whole though). --Jza84 | Talk  01:17, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Is this tiny enough: Category:People from Rochdale? --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I know from a cursory glance though that most of those fine folks in that category do not cite their source for the Rochdale connection. To be expected I guess. But I've started the page! --Jza84 | Talk  01:34, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Controversy over the usage of Manchester Cathedral in Resistance: Fall of Man
Hi everyone, the Controversy over... article is at GAC. It looks in good shape: well structured, cover all the main points, and fairly well referenced. It's an unusual one for the project, but the writers did a good job and I cleaned it up a bit and made the nom. An image of inside the cathedral would really help, for comparison with the in-game image on the right. Cheers, Nev1 (talk) 01:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've made a note on the talk page. The closest I can find are here. --Jza84 | Talk  03:30, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hang on, this wouldn't be the same angle would it? --Jza84 | Talk  03:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure it looks very similar, depends how accurate the game is :S I think this (probably different part of the cathedral) might be it too. Nev1 (talk) 03:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I know there's loads in that link we could upload to commons, as well as many from Waka Jawaka! --Jza84 | Talk  03:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Is the Cathedral open for people to walk around inside without appointment? I'm more than happy to go in and get some better shots if that's the case. Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is. There is usually an old lady standing around with a bunch of flyers inside who likes to talk, alot! There is a coffee shop inside somewhere too for tourists who visit. They have no problems with taking photos too but be warned, it is very dark inside so your shots are not going to be great. ┌ Joshii ┐└ chat ┘ 14:04, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Absence of light, pah! who needs light? I'll wait for a sunny day though, always better inside buildings to get backlit windows. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, looks like the gauntlet has been thrown down. I'm betting that a little problem like an an absence of light won't be a problem for our cameraman extraordinaire. Stand back! - this sounds like a job for the Parrot of Doom......!!!  Richerman (talk) 17:52, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've changed the image to one I took today. I really must dispense with the rubbish lens I have and buy something more substantial, with a sodding matte box as well! Image is on the right >>> Parrot of Doom (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have to say that photo is really excellent! You've even managed to give it a PC graphic look. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I can brighten it up if people prefer.  One of the problems with Wikipedia and dark images is the white background closes your eyes down, and makes things difficult to see.  The image is tone-mapped to be roughly the same brightness as it was in the church. Parrot of Doom (talk) 15:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * On a similar note, Manchester Cathedral is in a pretty shocking state. Does anyone fancy helping me tidy it up a little? Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point. I don't the the Organ and Organists section is of much use, would anyone object if I got rid of it? Nev1 (talk) 17:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems to be included in other Cathedral articles e.g. St Paul's Cathedral and Liverpool Cathedral. Maybe changing to table format could be an idea like St. Philip's Cathedral, Birmingham? ┌ Joshii ┐└ chat ┘ 17:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * A table would certainly be better, although I'm still not convinced of it's use, plus in it's current state it's unreferenced. That said, Chester Cathedral (GA) has the list. Elgin Cathedral and Old St Paul's Cathedral are both GAs any may be worth reading over for ideas, but are very different to Manchester Cathedral. Nev1 (talk) 17:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Map advice
I've been building a map of turnpikes in GM (for the article of the same name) and would appreciate any input as to style, etc. I'm about half way through it. I intend to overlay modern roads (with transparency) and include a border of the GM region. Any thoughts? The map, in its unfinished state, is. It's rather large so will scroll about a bit.

I should add that the map is sourced from the 1850ish maps on old.maps.co.uk so doesn't quite tally up with the article at present, I'm hoping that this will be resolved in future as the pattern of turnpike mergers and closures (etc) will become apparent with more research. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Is there anything in your sources on why there were so few trusts south of Swinton? Or is that because it's not finished? My thought is it could be because Stockport and south Trafford were in Cheshire and there was less investment in there than Lancashire, which, if it is the case, would be worth mentioning. Nev1 (talk) 00:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It isn't finished yet (see above) ;) Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Using the image in an article might prove a challenge, at the moment the grey of the turnpikes doesn't stand up well (although using a modern map as a background will change that), but the biggest problem is that the text is indecipherable are 300px. How do you intend to use the image? Nev1 (talk) 21:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I can make the town names bigger, that won't be a problem. The turnpike names, well, the map covers such a large area I can't see how I can do anything with those.  I'd like to complete the roads, and overlay modern roads on it, along with a GM border, and replace the Cary map.  I can easily make the roads 'thicker' and more visible on a small thumb. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Bit of info for those interested in South East Manny
Check out the chat on the new John Astley page !

Plus can someone proofread it for me please as well as the stubs i have placed on the Astley Deep pit as i am a bit past it now after 24 hours of editing lol

Chaosdruid (talk) 23:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the Astley Deep Pit Disaster should be merged into the article on Astley, Greater Manchester? Nev1 (talk) 23:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The article says it was a disaster in Dukinfield rather than Astley. --Jza84 | Talk  23:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It was in Dukinfield, but was a national disaster, which is why I left it on it's own page.
 * Can someone tell me how to get a map on there, or should i just take a snap from google maps ? ??


 * Don't use Google Maps. Use any OS map that is more than 50 years old.  There are some on  you can use.  If you have firefox and adblock, make sure you right-click the map image and block the 'old maps' watermark, so you can re-use it on Wikipedia. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have some pics of it which i will try and get on there tomorrow


 * Does that mean I would be OK to scan the maps I have from the 1930's and use those ?Chaosdruid (talk) 00:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, shall we put the search into the archives box ? if you see the posts, above, there is a link to my sandbox which will show how it looks. I have to say that it's a bit big but after playing I can't get the text size down and it prob won't look too bad with all those archives in there - Mr Stephen has done a lot of work on it !
 * Chaosdruid (talk) 00:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Manchester
Just letting everyone know that the Manchester article has been unprotected for the first time in over a year, so let's keep an eye on it and make sure vandalism doesn't creep in. If there's too much vandalism, the semi-protection can be reinstated easily enough. Nev1 (talk) 00:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I bet ip vandalism within 12 hours, any advance? :) --Jza84 | Talk  01:02, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm a little confused. Are we talking about the Manchester in Lancashire, or the one in Greater Manchester? --Malleus Fatuorum 01:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Or the one in Cheshire, because back in 1800, I know that Ringway was in Cheshire along with some other bits.  DDStretch    (talk)  01:11, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Edits
Cheers for those edits guys !!

I now know how to make it a quote instead of using grey bground lol

Just to clarify, when we talk about the historically dated pages do we always write the old county (which then makes sense for the Manchester Cheshire and Manchester Gtr lol), because I will have to change some other bits and pieces

I realise that it would get confusing on the Dukinfield page, as it is in Tameside now (even though my mam always said "CHESHIRE!!"), so I assume we just leave that as Tameside and Gtr Man, ??

thanks  Chaosdruid (talk) 01:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think it depends on the context. I always feel that something like "Person X was born in Greater Manchester in 18xx" reads very wrongly, whereas anything post-1974 should deal with the modern geography - though the consensus doesn't always seem to agree with me, which is fair enough.  Generally I try to get away without mentioning counties as often as possible! Fingerpuppet (talk) 13:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's never been formally codified as far as I'm aware, but I imagine best practice is to use the county of the time. I believe there may be a blanket policy somewhere about historical geography, one which states we use things like the country of the time (i.e. Martin Luther was born in the Holy Roman Empire, not Germany). --Jza84 | Talk  13:25, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would have previously dealt with that like this "Martin Luther was born in Germany which at the time was part of the Holy Roman Empire"
 * I suppose it most matters when searching texts and refs as older docs such as books written pre 1930 would definately not include any mention of Gtr Man.
 * Chaosdruid (talk) 14:32, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Radcliffe, Greater Manchester
I've fixed nearly all of the criticisms levelled at this article in its last FAC, before I re-submit it, could anyone with a spare few minutes just give it the once-over to check for any obvious mistakes? I have to change the Trolley Bus/Tram image, but I have others. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure, I'll take a look. I read it through before Christmas, but I'll do the same now. --Jza84 | Talk  23:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. --Jza84 | Talk  23:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've been nicking ideas from Shaw and Crompton :) I'll remove the tram image for now, I have an excellent image coming from here which I think will be usable given the likely date. Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Scuttlers
I read an interesting article in the Daily Mail the other day (I only bought it for the DvD - honestly!) about Scuttlers in Victorian Manchester. It seems we foisted more upon the world than industrialisation! It's interesting stuff, but the article I found on it could use a bit of TLC. It could do with being linked to some other articles on the history of Greater Manchester as it's a bit lonely at the moment. Richerman (talk) 14:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There's plenty of potential for that article to be improved. It looks like the author of the new book on the subject edited it as well. Nev1 (talk) 15:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, Victorian Chavs? Excellent, it just goes to show that the behaviour of youths today is nothing new :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I got very confused for a minute there until I realized this was nothing to do with scuttling... Mike Peel (talk) 07:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * My fav part was the brass toe-capped clogs, but a bit tame for nowadays lol especially some inner areas, say round the horseshoe in the 80's. Was nice to read that they sort of fought queensbury - just maiming and no killing. Chaosdruid (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Radcliffe at FAC
Radcliffe is renominated for FA status. See Featured article candidates/Radcliffe, Greater Manchester. Let's all wish Parrot of doom luck and help where we can! --Jza84 | Talk  15:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi all !
Thanks for my welcome to the project page !

Anyone know how to search through the archived discussion pages ?

I am currently updating the Dukinfield page and as such have put on a "refimprove" box at the top to encourage ppl to cite more references (as well as having added a few myself)

I am glad to help in any way i can

Chaosdruid (talk) 01:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Once again, welcome! It depends what archives you want to search, but google allows you to search this project's archives if you give it the site. For example, Dukinfield is only mentioned in one of our archives . I've got some books on Tameside (somewhere) and used them to expand Ashton-under-Lyne (which you might like to take a look at for ideas), and I'll see if I can help. Nev1 (talk) 02:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hello there! And welcome! Nice to have you onboard!


 * It would be great if the Dukinfield article was to expand/improve a little - it looks like it's been neglected for quite some time really. It's neighbour Ashton-under-Lyne is an official good article which you might want to borrow ideas from?


 * Do you mean our archived talk here, at WP:GM? You may have to go through them manually. Was there something in particular you wanted to know about - I might be able to recall? --Jza84 | Talk  02:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * WOW !! so many replies in such a short time, thanks guys !
 * Dukinfield:-
 * Im currently looking at the more recent history first, 1750 to present day.
 * Next will be people involved, with new pages for Astley etc
 * Then ill move on to ancient history
 * (I have some photos which I can use for things like the old mine shafts and stuff from 1950 to today (old family stuff), as well as various pamphlets & old maps etc. which I have collected over the years but any help is always useful - thanks for the offers!!
 * Seems strange there is no facility to search through the archives (these discussion ones) but as you said i will trawl through them individually.
 * I have an old postcard from Ashton, from the mid seventies I believe, ill try and dig it out - its a pic of the bus-station with Greetings from Ashton-Under-Lyne !! lol
 * Thanks again guys, I'll keep you all updated Chaosdruid (talk) 02:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I have an old postcard from Ashton, from the mid seventies I believe, ill try and dig it out - its a pic of the bus-station with Greetings from Ashton-Under-Lyne !! lol
 * Thanks again guys, I'll keep you all updated Chaosdruid (talk) 02:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks again guys, I'll keep you all updated Chaosdruid (talk) 02:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've just created a way to search the archives (externally): Search the archives. Any idea where to put the link anyone? (The archive box would be ideal, but I don't think it's possible) Nev1 (talk) 02:28, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If it is possible then the archivebox would be perfect I agree. Hmmm. --Jza84 | Talk  02:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I just created this one : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Chaosdruid/sandbox so it's def. possible ! (just edited to centre )
 * Chaosdruid (talk) 03:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Like this. Mr Stephen (talk) 11:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you click the link in my previous comment, it takes you to my sand box page and in the top right corner you should be able to see the archives, as well as the link to the search i put in
 * I think what we need is for someone to be able to type into a white box the "subject" they are searching for and then to click that link I put in to my sandbox to do the search.
 * I'll put it as per your present one cause that looks better and keeps it within wiki


 * Any ideas how we could do that ? Chaosdruid (talk) 11:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Off the top of my head, no. You could look for clues at WP:ANI, the archives there are searchable.  Mr Stephen (talk) 12:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Followup. Mr Stephen (talk) 12:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

LOL !! PERFECT !!

thats the best ive seen so far lol - ill sandbox it right now

Chaosdruid (talk) 17:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Something like that would be useful as a permanent feature on this page Pit-yacker (talk) 22:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Bad new and good news - If we put the search onto the archive box it gives bad results (see post below !)
 * But - I have seen some pages with a search included so am going to research in few days and report back !--Chaosdruid (talk) 22:06, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Salford
I'm still horrified by the state of the Salford article. Salford has been a top priority of ours for quite some time but it seems to have stalled. Although the first couple of sections looks quite good, it is all in need of a tidy, and the latter sections are very poor.

I'm willing to do a bit of an improvement drive to the page, but I don't think I can do it alone. Is the team willing to pull together on this one? --<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;border:2px solid #A9A9A9;padding:1px;">Jza84 | Talk  13:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm in. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes! Thank you! And anyone else? I'm looking in User:Richerman's direction!


 * My plan is that I/we work from the bottom sections upwards on this article as it the last sections that are most lacking. Salford's a realy interesting place, we could have a cracking article out of this one! --<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;border:2px solid #A9A9A9;padding:1px;">Jza84 | Talk  14:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I took all my Salford books back to the library, so I'll have to make another trip soon ... --Malleus Fatuorum 14:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I still have Cooper's book, and Frangopulo's incredibly useful Tradition in Action, which covers the whole county (can't recommend that one enough). --<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;border:2px solid #A9A9A9;padding:1px;">Jza84 | Talk  15:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Count me in too. Nev1 (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I've been doing bits and pieced to the page throughout the day. The greater part of this article is quite messy and doesn't read will. Sports, Public services, and Economy are particularly bad sections, and I'm sure that we can get the Landmarks section upto speed quite easily. --<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;border:2px solid #A9A9A9;padding:1px;">Jza84 | Talk  00:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Let me know if you'd like any images of anything in particular, I'd be happy to do those for you. There is some information re transport in the MBB canal article and the M&B railway article, and the River Irwell article will have some info on flooding in Salford. Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm hoping to get another image for the Transport section in there, and could do with something quite modern and of befitting quality for Salford. Does anything come to mind as a possibility?


 * Salford Central has just been rebuilt although it isn't the greatest photo around. The Metrolink would be the other obvious choice. Parrot of Doom (talk) 02:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, does anybody have or know of a high quality historical image of the Quays/Salford Docks? I'll fair-use it if needbe, but I'd like to have something about Salford Quays in it's heyday. --<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;border:2px solid #A9A9A9;padding:1px;">Jza84 | Talk  00:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * See if this bloke can help Parrot of Doom (talk) 02:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

(<-) There's been much progress on the page, but more is needed. The whole article just reads messy and is in great need of a copy edit. The Sports section needs to be completely rewritten in my opinion too. --<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;border:2px solid #A9A9A9;padding:1px;">Jza84 | Talk  18:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Astley Deep pit
Hi all

Little query - I have been editing the Astley deep pit disaster page, but wanted to make it larger. I see two options


 * 1 create a page for "Astley Deep Pit" - and then put all the info I have onto there and link it to "deep pit disaster"
 * 2 expand the "deep pit disaster" page to include all the info and make a redirect page for "Astley Deep Pit"
 * 3 move the page to "Astley Deep Pit" (leaving the redirect page)

I'm not sure what to do as at the moment i have mostly equal info for both--Chaosdruid (talk) 23:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It depends entirely on how much information you have. If you feel you have more information on the pit than the disaster, I would create the Astley Deep Pit article and copy the contents of the Astley Deep Pit Disaster article into it, as a section.  Then request deletion of the disaster article.  If however you only have a paragraph or two on the pit article, it may be as well just to include that in the existing disaster article.


 * PS I edited your post to make it a little more readable - hope this is ok with you. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:58, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would opt for number 3, at least until it matures outwards enough to split them. --<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;border:2px solid #A9A9A9;padding:1px;">Jza84 | Talk  01:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Problem is that Astley Deep Pit is not really that notable, whereas the incident was mentioned in Hansard at least 4 times.
 * I guess that I like option 3 best also, if i was to go with that option - do the redirect pages ever get autodeleted ?--Chaosdruid (talk) 03:22, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't have to have an article about the pit. Check out Hamlet chicken processing plant fire, an FA about an accident with (as far as I can see) no article about the factory (not even a redirect, see links).  Mr Stephen (talk) 08:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * (to Chaosdruid) Redirects are generally only deleted if they are misleading, offensive or nonsensical. Even whimsical ones tend to stay around, like egg chasing or IDDQD. I dare say deleting takes up far more resources than retaining them. Oldelpaso (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Lol - egg chasing ! is that a rugby term "chasing the egg" or something. Cheers for the chatback guys, I am concentrating on the Dukinfield page for now, so will create a redirect for "Astley Deep Pit"

Worsley World Heritage Site?
I've been expanding Worsley, and found that it, and other parts of Manchester were in 1999 proposed to be included in UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites. I can't find anything that says if they were unsuccessful, or still under consideration. Anyone know? The link is here. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:46, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In short, it wasn't. I'll try to find a source for that. Nev1 (talk) 12:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks like it's not been turned down, and is still on the "tentative list". I think that means they're still thinking it over, but 9 years is a long time. It really should be a world heritage site as it includes Ancoats and Castlefield. Nev1 (talk) 12:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The most recent thing I've found (April 2008) indicates it's still under consideration. No indication when there'll be an answer though. Nev1 (talk) 13:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I tried to trawl through the hundreds of PDF's and links and didn't get anywhere so I emailed them
 * If you don't get anywhere, hopefully they will mail back--Chaosdruid (talk) 15:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

List of coalmines
I noticed that the List_of_collieries_in_Lancashire_1854-present has a Greater Manchester section (good work btw !), and after a search I couldn't find one for Greater Manchester or for Cheshire

Is there anything in the pipeline about those ?

Maybe also a redirect for "coal mines in Greater Manchester" to that page in case someone searches for that exact phrase (I was thinking about school history projects and suchlike) as when i did a search it didn't show that page in the results

Cheers--Chaosdruid (talk) 21:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Presumably to be listed in a Greater Manchester section a pit would have to have opened post-1974. Were there any that did? --Malleus Fatuorum 22:01, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * What I am saying is that any children born after 1974 might not put Lancashire and Cheshire they may just put Greater Manchester (or even manchester)
 * I think it is important to remember that and take the appropriate actions to prevent missed information.--Chaosdruid (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * P.S. I just noticed that you undid one of my edits on the Daniel Adamson page, I am in the process of adding material tonight so would appreciate it if you could check it a bit later once it is finished, probably in an hour or so. --Chaosdruid (talk) 23:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I undid, not sure what you were trying to do ... anyway, if you want me to look over Daniel when you've finished, just let me know. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is the name of the pic I uploaded and was a bit difficult to remember so I pasted it in and saved it before checking the help page on image tags.--Chaosdruid (talk) 00:07, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Is this really your own work? Or is it a photograph that you own?  It isn't a big deal but the licence is likely incorrect. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah ! It is one from my grandfather, which I own along with various others he took around Dewsnap lane. Can you tell me the correct one to use please. Ta --Chaosdruid (talk) 00:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. I have also scanned some maps and other images from older mining books, all pre 1920 - i may need some help with those also lol


 * Have replied on your talk page. Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Talk:JPT
Just thought I'd let us "Manchesterphiles" know about this small discussion. :S --<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;border:2px solid #A9A9A9;padding:1px;">Jza84 | Talk  02:14, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm tempted to edit the disambig page to include a whole load of redlinks to other uses of JPT, of which Google reveals many. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)