Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greater Manchester/Archive 28

Question for our administrators
I believe that administrators have a function available to list all unwatched pages? Is it possible/easy to check whether there are any unwatched pages tagged by this project? --Malleus Fatuorum 00:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If this exists, I'd love to know how. Nev1, can you shed any light? :S --Jza84 | Talk  00:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Special:Unwatchedpages - you'd have to generate a list of this project's articles and compare it to that somehow. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the page only generates up to 5000 entries.  Majorly  talk  00:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I've heard this question asked before, and I don't think it's possible to check for a single project. However WP:GM does have its own watchlist which I made a while ago. This way any article tagged by WP:GM is on the list (although I need to update it). Nev1 (talk) 00:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the way this kind of thing is often done is to download the html page(s) and then run scripts against them locally, but if Majorly's right and there's a limit on the number of non-watchlisted pages displayed then it would be a pretty pointless exercise. As it sounds like that administrator function is as well. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think anything's changed since Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greater Manchester/Archive 15... Mike Peel (talk) 08:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Noting ever seems to change much on wikipedia, not for the better anyway. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:38, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for a a mills task force.
A few guys have been doing a lot of work on Windmills, and are proposing mills task force on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Historic sites. I have been in on the discussion and see advantages to opening the criteria to include textile mills. Could anyone who is interested on Cotton look over, read the discussion and maybe give a bit of support?--ClemRutter (talk) 17:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The task force didn't happen; instead it is a full project. WP:MILLS has a lot of areas in common with WP:GM (Williams & Farnie- list about 1112 of them on pp 189-198 !)--ClemRutter (talk) 07:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The importance scale
WP:YORKS have decided to adopt our importance scale in the interest of bringing some inter-project consistency. Rating articles for importance may not seem hugely important to everyone, but it does help us identify which articles are most, well, important to work on. However, our importance scale doesn't cover stuff like people or events so there's a discussion going on about how they should be rated. I thought WP:GM members would be interested and both projects could adopt any changes. Nev1 (talk) 19:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * More consistency across projects can only be a good thing. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:59, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. :) --Jza84 | Talk  22:59, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Carlise and Lancaster
In the absence of specific county projects for these two articles, I thought I'd let NW England know that there's been something of an improvement drive for the City of Carlisle to bring it more inline with the GA City of Salford. City of Lancaster has also had a minor facelist. Any info that can help with further improvements for the city districts would be much appreciated. (NB: the specific county towns of Carlisle, Cumbria and Lancaster, Lancashire are covered seperately like Salford, Greater Manchester). Thanks, --Jza84 | Talk  00:04, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Greater Manchester/Progress
How can I update the progress log of our project? The links at GM used to update the table have gone dead. I was hoping to update WikiProject Greater Manchester/Progress. --Jza84 | Talk  22:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know of a working link to run the bot, but the script was run yesterday so the stats are up to date as of 21 June. Nev1 (talk) 22:30, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

In case this comes up again, the bot that updates the stats is WP 1.0 bot; User:WP 1.0 bot has an external link at the bottom with the most recent link to running the bot. I'll update our project page with the most recent link. Nev1 (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Peak District
Although this article isn't tagged by our project (although a small part of it is in Greater Manchester) I thought some people here might be interested to know that it's been nominated at WP:GAN. Nev1 (talk) 16:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe part of Saddleworth is part of the Peak District. --Jza84 | Talk  16:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the Peak District. Last time I was there we rode up Win Hill.  Loved it (I'm in the blue).  Mam Tor next. Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like something out of The Lord of the Rings - the landscape, not you! --Jza84 | Talk  16:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You look reassuringly normal in that picture PoD. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 17:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What, you mean you expected some big fat bloke with a collection of Dungeons and Dragons toys? ;) The beard has gone though. Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:47, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Normal?? If you want to cycle down a hill with lumpy bits sticking out until your brakes are red hot you've got to be mad as a box of frogs. Richerman (talk) 23:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

{Update) The article's now been passed, but I'm wondering whether we should add our project banner to the talk page? Afterall, some of it is in Greater Manchester. Nev1 (talk) 01:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

List of people from Wigan
Hello, List of people from Wigan has been put together. It may need some additional TLC and names adding. With this list, only the List of people from Bury is outstanding from the List of people from Greater Manchester by borough. --Jza84 | Talk  21:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The right step I think as it removes a section which is traditionally prone to vandalism and is in line with other "list of people from..." articles. And as was pointed out in one of the FACs for Sale, it would be difficult to ensure that the section is comprehensive. Settlement articles can reach FA either with or without the section, so considering the problems the section suffers I'm in favour of removing them. Nev1 (talk) 22:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment on the latest newsletter
Reading the latest newsletter I was struck by something when looking at the comparative figures for GM as againt London, Yorkshire, and so on, and that's the far smaller number of articles that the GM project has tagged. I guess you'd naturally expect London to have an interest in a fair few articlem but actually it's the Yorkshire project that's tagged the most, with 6,538 as against our 1,867. Taking those different populations into account, 2.2% of our tagged articles are either FA or GA, way ahead of Yorkshire with 1.1% and London with 1.0%. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * True, by proportion of GAs and FAs we easily lead the field, and barring a massive upsurge in the number of articles under our project or WP:London producing another 70 FAs, it's going to stay that way. But, we're now falling behind in terms of the number of GAs; the Yorkshire wikiproject now has more GAs than us, so we've got to put that right! Nev1 (talk) 12:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oohh you are a competitive lot:-) Surely the reason why we have less GA's is that that a lot of them don't stay there long, but tend to get improved up to FA status. Isn't the ultimate, but unobtainable, goal to get everything to up to FA? Richerman (talk) 14:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Shakerley
I put this question on the Tyldesley talk page, Does anybody think there should be a page for Shakerley? or should I put all the info into Tyldesley?. There is more info than I thought.--J3Mrs (talk) 16:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If there's a lot of info about Shakerley, that means it passes notability criteria. Other towns have articles about notable areas, such as Brooklands, Trafford. Or Oldham which has a lot of articles on its areas:


 * But if Shakerley is an area of Tyldesley (I'm not familiar with the geography of the area, so I don't know) it would be good to mention the important events/details in the main Tyldesley article. Nev1 (talk) 17:01, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I have now looked at the Oldham articles and there's at least as much as in some I think, It's referred to in things like the census as Tyldesley cum Shakerley and it is quite different. I think it should have a page. So the important bits in Tyldesley as well? --J3Mrs (talk) 17:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think so, it's part of Tyldesley's history so shouldn't be completely disassociated. Nev1 (talk) 17:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Well I put in what I had, I'll look for some more references. Would somebody look to see if it is ok?--J3Mrs (talk) 18:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Another source
I've discovered a very nice source of old documents, which some project members may find of use. . It contains a great many documents that you won't find on archive.org, Google books, or anywhere else, unless you care to part with money. Scans (if available) may be obtained on each record by clicking the "View full text of Wellcome copy T.xxx.xx" link at the top of each record. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I may have spoken too soon. Not all records are scanned. (although the article I'm working on has tonnes of stuff) Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Speaking of other sources I found questia.com the other day which is an online searchable subscription library of over 72,000 textbooks and 2 million journal articles. The full subscription is £12.31 a month or you can subscribe to one subject at £6.14, which seems like good value to me. Pity it's American based but you can't have everything. Also, I recently bought a copy of the 6th Edition of the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. It's two wonderful big A4 size leather-bound volumes in a slip case - gorgeous! Of course, I had to join the Folio Society to get it at a reasonable price, but they do produce some lovely books and you don't get sent some book of the month if you're late paying the bill. So, if anyone wants to me to look anything up in a later edition than you can get on line, give me a shout. PS. Congratulations to PofD and Malleus for getting Gropecunt Lane on the main page - I never thought I'd see the day that happened. Do a google search on it now and you'll find lots of people either laughing or complaining about it. What a great way to concentrate all the vandalism in one place for a day. Oh, but think of the poor children who've never head such words before .......... :) Richerman (talk) 23:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Moors murders
This is an article I've been nibbling away at for a while, mainly reverting obvious nonsense or vandalism, but I think the time's right now for a push to GA. The main problem I see is a lack of citations; I've got a couple of books on order from the library, so I should be able to cite everything that needs it later this week. I'm pretty sure everything's accurate, but it does need to be cited, obviously.

Any comments, advice, or help to get this ready for GA in the next week or so would be gratefully received. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * At a glance, the lead seems fairly short and doesn't seem to summarise the entire article. The background section also seems a little short.  Majorly  talk  21:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As an aside, I've filmed Winnie Johnson a couple of times. Its an extremely upsetting case, she is a heartbroken woman, and the article certainly deserves better. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's what I've been thinking as well PoD, the whole sad affair deserves better.


 * To Majorly, yes, I agree about the lead. I've added a bit to it, but I'll finish it off when my sources arrive and the rest is sorted. So far as the background section is concerned, there wasn't one at all until a few hours ago, so all I've been able to add so far is what the ODNB says. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * PS. I'm most pleased so far about getting rid of that appalling Popular cultural references section. I expect there'll be some pressure though to add the crucially important information that Throbbing Gristle's "Very Friendly" features a monologue describing one of the murders, but if I do it'll be properly integrated into the article, an example of the murders' power to shock, not some disconnected factoid. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There is some good reference material available on google books. This one and this one are both full chapters. Richerman (talk) 15:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I own a copy of Beyond Belief, which is in the further reading section. It is very detailed, but is apparently rather dated and fictionalised. I'll see if I can use it.  Majorly  talk  15:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A book I found in the library some time ago, The lost boy: the definitive story of the Moors murders and the search for the final victim, could be useful if used with care. Despite the title, it concentrates more on Hindley, and there are some errors, but it is quite comprehensive.  The ISBN is 0553818074.   Hassocks  5489 (tickets please!)  21:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for those pointers Hassocks and Richerman. It never ceases to amaze me how the details are often slightly but significantly different in the sources, not just in this case, but in general. It took me ages, for instance, to arrive at a concensus as to how many Pendle witches there actually were, which is hardly a trivial fact. What's both satisfying and slightly worrying is that since that article was written most of the online sources agree with the wikipedia article (most of the written ones do as well to be fair, but not all, for various reasons). This one is an article in which we need to be as certain of our facts as we possibly can, and as dispassionate as we possibly can, as Brady is still alive, and so are the relatives of his victims. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:05, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's right, one of the references I mentioned says Hindley was born in Groton. It took me a bit to work that one out but I realised eventually they meant Gorton - although the other sources all say Crumpsall. I must say I was appalled at the lack of referencing in these articles (Moors murders, Hindley and Brady) before Malleus got to them but I'm a bit short of time to edit at the moment - hence the pointer to some reference material. I'm also finding it a bit dfficult to do too much reading about the case as it's hard to get it out of your head afterwards. I can sort of understand that Brady was affected by his upbringing and obviously had a personality disorder, but how he convinced Hindley to join in with what he was doing is just beyond comprehension. However, as you say, it's important to get the articles right. Richerman (talk) 10:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have any views on whether this is a reliable source or not? Sadly I've discovered that a lot of the present article has been copied almost word for word from there, so quite a bit of rewriting to be done in any case. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Based on this the site owner/author seems to be fairly credible. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 21:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Tyldesley
Just another nudge that User:J3Mrs has brought this page upto B-class, despite being a new user to Wikipedia. I think using some of our skill and experience collectively, we could make this a GAC. --Jza84 | Talk  15:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Can anybody verify that Edward Entwistle was born in Tyldesley? --Jza84 | Talk  18:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * When searching for "Edward Entwistle" Tyldesley, google doesn't turn up any reliable sources, google scholar, google books, and jstor don't return any results. If it's true it's probably in a local history book, but not one I've got I'm afraid. Nev1 (talk) 19:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There's an interview with Edward Entwistle published here. It's from a newspaper called the Ottago Witness, dated 7 August 1907. Entwistle says that he was born at "Tilsey's Bank". --Malleus Fatuorum 19:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Old maps
Is it possible to use snippets of old maps Yates 1786, Greenwood 1818 or Hennet 1829 as found here Lancashire old maps --J3Mrs (talk) 21:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, no problems there. By the way Ordnance Survey maps, once 50 years old, are copyright-free. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you--J3Mrs (talk) 21:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The maps themselves are long out of copyright, but LCC claim copyright on the scans. You might want to read this and this. Mr Stephen (talk) 22:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just about every site I've ever nicked a map from also claims copyright. I think it stems from ignorance more than anything.  Interestingly, www.old-maps.co.uk claim copyright only on their logo - which is watermarked on the images (a problem easily solved with Firefox Adblock).  I think someone must have pointed out to them that they can't claim ownership of old OS maps, and so they just plonked their own logo over the top to prevent screencapping. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Alot of online art stores seem to do the same - infact a long time back I was trying to get a copy of a painting for WP and they said they owned the copyright of the photograph of the artwork. WikiCommons disagreed thankfully. --Jza84 | Talk  22:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There's some legal jostling taking place right now. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:44, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They make a compelling case. Fingers crossed this is resolved. --Jza84 | Talk  23:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Ashton-under-Lyne
I'm going to put this article forwards at WP:FAC pretty soon (not sure exactly when, maybe once the review for Maiden Castle, Dorset, has closed or maybe a short soon after) so any pointers towards improving the article would be much appreciated. Cheers, Nev1 (talk) 16:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Apart from the inevitable prose complaints—I think it's pretty good, but there are a few things I'd tidy up—which you have to expect anyway at FAC, the main thing I see is the lack of "alt" text. A recent addition to the FA criteria says that images should have "brief and useful alt text when feasible". --Malleus Fatuorum 21:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What is "alt" text? And just out of interest, how far would Chadderton be from FAC? --Jza84 | Talk  23:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Alt text is what someone using a screen reader would hear. So the idea is to provide a description of the image, as in the lead image here for instance (look at it in edit mode). Depending on which browser you're using, switch off automatic download of images to see what a screen reader would say. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also see WP:ALT. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've had a go at adding alt text. I'm for the idea as it's intended to make wikipedia more accessible, but it's not as easy to write as I thought it would be! Nev1 (talk) 16:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

After giving the prose a spring clean I've decided to push ahead and have nominated the article at WP:FAC. Nev1 (talk) 21:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

City of Manchester Stadium FAR
nominated City of Manchester Stadium for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Thankyou,  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 06:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Closure of Moston Brook High School
In the writing of North Road (stadium), I came across a lack of sources regarding the closure of Moston Brook High School, which stood on the same site as the football ground had occupied until 2000. I found one page, but the site it comes from looks fairly bloggy. Since I don't have access to a Greater Manchester public library, could anyone please look for a reference for the school's closure for me? – PeeJay 22:04, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This looks possibly reliable.  Majorly  talk  22:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Majorly. That site will almost certainly be reliable, given that it's run by Her Majesty's Government. – PeeJay 22:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Salford
One of our project goals is to get Salford to GA. With all the effort that's been put in recently I think it's ready to be nominated. I'd thought about going straight to FAC, but I think we'd be fighting fires over the prose there.

What does the panel think? --Malleus Fatuorum 20:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I say GAC - and, if possible Malleus, you used your influence at the GA WikiProject and find us a really strong and really demanding reviewer? Whatever the outcome, I think we'd be ready for a nomination of somesorts by Monday. --Jza84 | Talk  23:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have no influence anywhere Jza84. I'm pretty sure that Salford's at GA level right now, and whatever PoD adds over the weekend will only make it better. None of us want to sneak through with an easy review, but this article is ready for prime time. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 23:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The content and structure are excellent, but some prose tweaks are needed and some sections could do with a bit of expansion (e.g. are there other notable places of worship, incl. non-Christian denominations?). Some of the redlinks might be quick to "fill" as well; I'll see what I can do there and on the article itself.   Hassocks  5489 (tickets please!)  23:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) Seeing as often picks up articles in the geography section to review I wouldn't be too worried about having an easy ride. His reviews are tough but fair in my experience. Nev1 (talk) 23:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with that. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:23, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I still think it needs a lot of work. You can look at most of the smaller sections and find dozens of minor problems. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Our goal was GA, not the best article about Salford the world has ever seen. I can look at any article and find "dozens of minor problems", and I often do. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I find that grasping the nettle can provide that bit more incentive, and there is time to edit the article before and during the review. Nev1 (talk) 00:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It can, but I still think we'd be like lambs to the slaughter at FAC. But heck, what do I know. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 01:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think I have anything more to add now, other than improve the pictures. Feel free to nominate it. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've made the GA nomination, but with over 320 articles already in the queue I think we may be in for a long wait. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * hahah! Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This will please that masochist Jza84. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 15:07, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That hits the spot! --Jza84 | Talk  21:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Right I made a map, any comments? Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What about including the names of some places in and around, like Kersall Moor, Manchester, Stretford, and so on? And a scale would be handy. Perhaps a compass showing which way north is? --Malleus Fatuorum 16:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * How about now? Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that looks good. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:22, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Salford is now a GA. The reviewer, Pyrotec, has made some good points that would need to be addressed if we ever wanted to take this to FAC though. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:42, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Media in Manchester
Hello there. I made some changes to the main Manchester page to add some historical references to how the media grew in the city and to tidy up what was there. A user called Jza84 deleted all my work claiming it was badly formatted (one of the main problems was by citations/references. He suggested I contact the WP:GM project for some help. I'm therefore going to paste the latest version of what I did below. Could someone there possibly help me to refine it further in order to meet WP FA guidelines? I recognise that there are still many gaps in this and that perhaps one day a "History of Media in Manchester" might be worth a separate page (I've already created one about 2ZY, the first radio station in the city, following my research). My apologies if this is not the correct procedure for doing this, please forgive me, I'm just trying to help expand and improve this section. Many thanks,  Mark

Radio

Manchester was an important location for early radio broadcasts in Britain, the first of which were made by the Marconi company when 2ZY began experimental transmissions on May 17th 1922. The British Broadcasting Company was granted a licence for sound broadcasts in October of the same year and inaugurated 2LO in London on 14th November, followed by 2ZY, the BBC's official Manchester station, the next day. 2ZY made regular transmissions from the Metropolitan Vickers Electricity works in Old Trafford on 375 metres Medium wave ).


 * What is 2ZY?
 * Dates should be consistent throughout the article, in this case 17 May 1922
 * A broadcast of sound is via acoustic energy - I think you mean 'AM radio broadcasts'.
 * What makes www.sterlingtimes.co.uk a reliable source?
 * What is an Electricity 'works'?
 * I know that 375m is the frequency, but less technically-minded people will be left wondering what it means. You'd be better off using Hz. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

In July 1925 the BBC opened a much higher powered transmitter at Daventry which broadcast on 1562 meters Long Wave and was receivable across most of Britain. The station was called 5XX and it conducted its first experimental stereo broadcast from a concert in Manchester. (The 5XX Long Wave transmitter beamed the right hand channel and all the local BBC Medium Wave transmitters broadcast the left hand channel). A central Control Room was opened in the city in 1929 from where many network radio programmes were made or transmitted. Radio plays and concerts were staged in an old converted repertory theatre hall in Hulme which was renamed 'The Radio Playhouse'. The 2ZY Orchestra created in 1922 went on to play a pivotal role in the establishment of the Northern Wireless Orchestra (and later the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra)


 * right-hand and left-hand - no need to use 'hand'
 * What makes 'www.btinternet.com/~roger.beckwith/bh/mr/mr2.htm' a reliable source? Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Programme content made in Manchester included radio features on subjects like Cotton, Coal and 'The Classic Soil' (all made in 1939) but throughout the Second World War and after, many well-known networked radio comedies and concerts as well as Womans Hour were produced in Manchester. It was not until the 1970s that true local radio services began across Britain and BBC Radio Manchester began broadcasting on 95.3 VHF in 1970. The Medium Wave frequency of 206 meters was opened later. Independent Commercial radio began in Britain in 1973 so on April 2nd the following year Piccadilly Radio was launched in Manchester on 261 metres medium wave and 97.0 vhf (the frequency was changed in 1986).


 * As above, frequency is represented in Hz. Also, what is 95.3 VHF?  KHz?  MHz? Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The BBC's original radio studios were on Piccadilly but they became cramped and outdated so all operations were moved to a massive new purpose built studio complex on Oxford Road which was known as New Broadcasting House (known as NBH) and which opened for both TV and radio production in October 1976. The number of hours of productions made in Manchester then increased until at its peak in the 1990s around 20% of the output on the newly opened Radio 5 Live (plus 10% on BBC Radio 4 and a daily afternoon show on BBC Radio 1 (Mark & Lard) were all being made in and broadcast from Manchester.


 * 'on Piccadilly' - geographically, or did they share the same frequency?
 * No inline citations, unreferenced material. Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The commercial station Piccadilly radio was re-branded in 1988 when the AM (named Piccadilly Gold) and FM (named Key103) services were split. A number of new local commercial services were licensed by the Radio Authority in the late 1980s and 1990s. This proliferation has meant that radio market in Manchester now has the highest number of local radio stations outside London including BBC Radio Manchester, Key 103, Galaxy, Piccadilly Magic 1152, 105.4 Century FM, 100.4 Smooth FM, Rock Radio, Capital Gold 1458, 96.2 The Revolution and Xfm BBC Radio Manchester returned to its original title in 2006 after becoming BBC GMR in 1988.


 * What makes http://frequencyfinder.org.uk/tc/manc.html a reliable source? Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Throughout the last 40 years Manchester has also heard many pirate, student, temporary (Restricted Service Licence) and unofficial radio stations. Student radio stations include Fuse FM at the University of Manchester and MMU Radio at the Manchester Metropolitan University. A community radio network is coordinated by Radio Regen, with stations covering the South Manchester communities of Ardwick, Longsight and Levenshulme (All FM 96.9) and Wythenshawe (Wythenshawe FM 97.2).

One of the earliest pirate stations, started in 1979 on 94.6 FM, was called Andromeda which broadcast to the entire conurbation from various locations on the hills around Tameside Defunct (official) radio stations include Sunset (which became Kiss 102, now Galaxy Manchester), and KFM (which became Signal Cheshire, now Imagine FM). These stations, as well as many 1990s pirates, played a significant role in the city's House music culture, also known as the Madchester scene, which was based around clubs like The Haçienda (which had its own shows on Sunset and on Kiss 102). Some of the best known voices on UK radio began their careers in (or featured regularly on) radio made in Manchester including: Radio producer and author Karl Pilkington, of The Ricky Gervais Show fame; James Stannage, Terry Christian, Mike Sweeny, Nemone, David Dunne, Julian Worricker, Allan Beswick, Brian Redhead, Andy Crane.

Television

Television broadcasts spread to the North West relatively late - the first monochrome 405 line television transmitter covering the area (from Holme Moss) did not open until 1951. Commercial TV began in May 1956 and the signals were broadcast from Winter Hill. The first ITV franchisee was Granada Television, which remained the service provider until it was absorbed into the ITV Network in 2004. Granada has its headquarters in a distinctive purpose built building on Quay Street, in the Castlefield area of the city. Granada produces the world's oldest and most watched television soap opera, Coronation Street, which is screened five times a week on ITV1.

The first edition of Top of the Pops was broadcast from a converted church in Longsight on New Year's Day 1964. The BBC began regional TV news bulletins in 1957. In September 1969 the BBC's Look North was first aired as part of the Nationwide programme (this grew into the current programme North West Tonight.

Manchester is now one of the three main BBC production bases in England, alongside London and Bristol, a position which will be strengthened in 2011 when more BBC departments and channels are to be moved from London to the mediaCity:UK being constructed at Salford Quays. Programmes including A Question of Sport, Mastermind, and Real Story, are made at New Broadcasting House on Oxford Road, just south of the city centre. The hit series Cutting It was set in the city's Northern Quarter and ran on BBC1 for five series. Life on Mars was set in 1973 Manchester. Also, The Street, winner of a BAFTA and International Emmy Award in 2007 is set in Manchester.

Manchester is also the regional base for the BBC One North West Region so programmes like 'North West Tonight are produced here. The BBC intends to relocate large numbers of staff and facilities from London to Media City at Salford Quays. The Children's (CBBC), Comedy, Sport (BBC Sport) and New Media departments are all scheduled to move before 2010.

Manchester has its own television channel, Channel M, owned by the Guardian Media Group and operated since 2000. The station produces almost all content including local news locally and is available nationally on the BSkyB television platform. Television characters from Manchester include Daphne Moon (played by Jane Leeves), of Frasier, Charlie Pace (played by Dominic Monaghan) of Lost, Naomi Dorrit (Lost) and Nessa Holt (Las Vegas), both played by local actress Marsha Thomason.

Film

Manchester is featured in several Hollywood films such as My Son, My Son! (1940), directed by Charles Vidor and starring Brian Aherne and Louis Hayward. Also Grand Hotel (1932), in which Wallace Beery often shouts "Manchester!". Others include Velvet Goldmine starring Ewan McGregor, and Sir Alec Guinness's The Man in the White Suit. More recently, the entire city of Manchester is engulfed in runaway fires in the 2002 film 28 Days Later. The 2004 Japanese animated film, Steamboy was partly set in Manchester, during the times of the industrial revolution. The city is also home to the Manchester International Film Festival and has held the Commonwealth film festival. Print Media

Newspapers

At certain points in the 1800s Manchester had up to seven newspapers - this was not unusal, many towns and cities had a plethora of papers at this time. The Manchester Guardian however being the largest, selling more than any other regional newspaper (average of 51,000 in 1837). The others were at various times: Manchester Herald, Manchester Advertiser, Manchester Times, Manchester Chronicle, Manchester Courier, Manchester Voice. The Guardian newspaper was founded in Manchester in 1821 as The Manchester Guardian. Its head office is still in Manchester, though many of its management functions were moved to London in 1964.[18] Its sister publication, the Manchester Evening News, has the largest circulation of a UK regional evening newspaper. It is free in the city centre, but paid for in the suburbs. Despite its title, it is available all day.[152]

The Metro North West is available free at Metrolink stops, rail stations and other busy locations. The MEN group distributes several local weekly free papers.[153] For many years most of the national newspapers had offices in Manchester: The Daily Telegraph, Daily Express, Daily Mail, The Daily Mirror, The Sun. Only The Daily Sport remains based in Manchester. At its height, 1,500 journalists were employed, though in the 1980s office closures began and today the "second Fleet Street" is no more.[154] An attempt to launch a Northern daily newspaper, the North West Times, employing journalists made redundant by other titles, closed in 1988.[155] Another attempt was made with the North West Enquirer, which hoped to provide a true "regional" newspaper for the North West, much in the same vein as the Yorkshire Post does for Yorkshire or The Northern Echo does for the North East; it folded in October 2006.[155]

Magazines

There are several local lifestyle magazines, including YQ Magazine and Moving Manchester. . City Life was a listings magazine which was published fortnightly between 1983-2005 until it was absorbed into the MEN. A single edition of Time Out Manchester was published in 2006.

--Mapmark (talk) 12:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a great many issues with this text, mostly because Manchester is a WP:FA, and high standards apply to any article holding that status. Firstly, I think that you should consider creating a new article and copying this to that, and then editing that article to perhaps 3-4 paragraphs which could be inserted into Manchester.  Media in Manchester is certainly notable and important, but it carries nowhere near the gravitas as, say, the Industrial Revolution, or even the Manchester Bombing of 1996.
 * There are many issues with references - you need to use only sources that conform to WP:Reliable for an FA, and all sources should be formatted with the correct WP:Citation templates. The latter isn't a big deal though since its just a style thing.  The former however is very important. Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Parrot of Doom. Manchester is already a big article, and there's far too much information here to be added comfortably. Starting a new Media in Manchester article is the way to go. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. If one is to discuss the media in Manchester, one has to be careful to do it full justice. The origins of the Manchester radical press needs explaining. The commercially relevance of  The Textile Mercury (which has its own commons:Category:Textile Mercury images) should be explained. Even so I can't see much relevance in providing a list of celebs that have happened to obtain paid work in a product of one of Manchester's studios.

Nice to see someone else fired up to do a major edit. --ClemRutter (talk) 17:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks so much for all of you taking the time to help, have started the ball rolling with "Media in Manchester" including as many of the comments above as I can get in (not got round to the Manchester Free press yet - if anyone else with more knowledge can tackle that, all the better, if not I'll put it on my to do list). Some reason copying back and forth lost all my references so I'm currently cutting and pasting all those, bit laborious but we'll get there. Meantime if anyone else wants to edit down the words in the main article that might help the overall size of the main page. Cheers everyone :-) Mark --Mapmark (talk) 21:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Writing your first article is quite difficult, all the wikimarkup to get used to, the Manual of Style ... but we're here to help. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 22:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Must go to bdd now, but I have put this on my watchlist and will help with some copyediting and ref formatting etc. tomorrow. I've added a couple of categories, but can't think of any more at the moment – no doubt there are other suitable ones.   Hassocks  5489 (tickets please!)  22:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * We'll give you all the help you need - we're all Manchester-mad here. I work in the media and may be able to supply some television-production related imagery.  Let me have a scooch around my HD for something suitable.  In the meantime if the weather is good tomorrow I'll cycle down to the Quays to see how the BBC site is looking. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You may find it useful to add a "cite" button to the editing toolbar to make it easier to use citation templates. Click on "my preferences" at the top then "gadgets" then tick the box for "reftools". You then just click the "cite" button and then the appropriate button for the type of reference you want. You then fill in the appropriate boxes, put the cursor where you want the reference to be inserted, click on "add citation" and a properly formatted reference will be inserted for you. If the format isn't quite the same as the others in the article it's easy to make minor adjustments to the wording once you've inserted it e.g. you can change "cite web" to "citation" if that's how the others are formatted. Richerman (talk) 00:05, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Err, regarding the picture, isn't MediaCity 'over the water'? Mr Stephen (talk) 15:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, but it will be the new home of the BBC who currently occupy Oxford Road, and possibly will be the home of Granada TV once property values rise again and they can flog their Quay St. building. Parrot of Doom (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a good point Mr Stephen, stupid of me to add it really. Maybe a picture of the BBC's Oxford Road studios would be be better, or Granada TV's complex? --Malleus Fatuorum 16:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Now see I'm not sure it's that simple - a fair bit of TV infrastructure is in the process of moving over there, The Pie Factory is already there, you have Hammerhead TV near Ordsal Hall, in short most of Manchester's media will no longer be in Manchester - it'll be in Salford, or Greater Manchester. Shortly, only Granada will be in Manchester, along with a few production companies and hire/sale companies. Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What that says to me though is that we will also need a Media in Salford article, perhaps even an overarching Media in Greater Manchester. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

This sounds like two good ideas - we will need to be careful about one contentious issue I've seen people get their knickers in a twist about elsewhere (on skyscrapercity for example) namely the BBC move to media city. Of course it is important to stress that it is in physically in the Metropolitan Borough of Salford, but it is clear that the BBC did not make the choice to move to Salford as a kind of independent area, unconnected to anywhere else - just as White City is not generally quoted as being in Ealing or Broadcasting House in Westminster, those locations are part of the larger urban area. TC & BH are in London. Though London's Docklands is officially in the borough of Tower Hamlets, it is as much a part of Greater London as the old Manchester Ship canal docks are part of Greater Manchester. The BBC is moving to Manchester and it happens they chose media city as a great location which is co-incidentally in the city of Salford. I can just see how this might be one of those discussions!!! --Mapmark (talk) 17:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I hate to be pointy about this but they're moving to Salford, not Manchester. Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Manchester_City_F.C.
More opinions on this one requested, particularly from those without an attachment to either of the city's clubs. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)